Cleaned by: Rebecca Lash, May 4^th, 2021

Transcribed by: unknown

Interview date: 5/2/2016

Location: Montreal, Canada

Total time: 1:55:03

Zaki Ghavitian: Born 1951 in Isfahan, Iran. Arrived in Montreal 1970.   

Interview Begins 00:01:28

[00:01:28] Henry: Good morning, what is your full name? 

[00:01:30] Zaki: Zaki Ghavitian. 

[00:01:33] Henry: And when were you born? 

[00:01:36] Zaki: I was born in 1951.

[00:01:38] Henry: And where? 

[00:01:39] Zaki: In Isfahan, Iran. 

[00:01:42] Henry: So first I just want to thank you for accepting the invitation to be interviewed for Sephardi Voices. 

[00:01:48] Zaki: Thank you. 

[00:01:49] Henry: Let's begin with a general kind of question. Tell me something about your family’s background. 

[00:01:57] Zaki: My family background, they are all from Isfahan and they was uh in very uh, low part of the city, that's the the part that most of the Jewish people, low-level uh revenue people that they live in. It's uh, they call it mahalé [ph] [00:02:26] And uh, they was not very wealthy people and uh they was uh very traditional, religious and uh ...very uh, very, everybody works, do their best to make the living only for day by day. So uh, it was not that they had any saving plan or whatever. [00:02:57] Not only my family, all family they have to work until last day of their work because, their life I mean. Because there is no welfare, there was not any welfare uh, social security whatever that hire the people. So sick or... healthy, no matter, to live you have to work. [00:03:29] And to get day by day, earning to make a living. 

[00:03:37] Henry: Were your grandparents also from Isfahan? 

[00:03:40] Zaki: Yes, all. Everybody they was from Isfahan, yes. 

[00:03:43] Henry: And do you know in terms of your family history if they lived there for a hundred years? 150 years? 

[00:03:50] Zaki: I think the great, great parents that I found out later they was from Kashan, is another city not far from Isfahan but that is another culture. There is many culture Jewish even, Jewish culture in Iran depending which city you are come from. So the most culture that today exists, still exists is Tehran, Shiraz, Isfahan and Kerman and Mashat. [00:04:32] So and for sure, Hamadan. So after, before the revolution and after the remaining they are only in Tehran, Isfahan and Shiraz. Very, very, very few person still in Hamadan. But they are concentrated in these three cities now.

[00:05:03] Henry: In the 150 years ago there was forced conversions.

[00:05:07] Zaki: Absolutely. 

[00:05:08] Henry: Was your family part of that? 

[00:05:10] Zaki: No, not as I know. Not that we know. Because, you know, we don't know that if any part of our family was converted or not but because I didn't heard anything about it but not far from what our city that I lived that, where I born, that's happened also to that village. [00:05:37] And uh, still that village, they talking the Jewish dialect, the same dialect as the Jewish from Isfahan talk and uh still they are making candlelight Friday night but hiding it under a basket. They don't know why but the people that living in that village they are the most anti-Semite that could exist. [00:06:17] They are anti-Jewish that is unbelievable. Many Jewish people that they went to selling some material in that village they never came back alive. So it's very hard to believe why but, but they don't know that they ancestors was Jewish people. [00:06:48] But they having some custom of Jewish people, they have the same dialect that uh, Jewish Isfahani Jewish talk because each city has its own dialect. So uh,  always I remember I was maybe five, six years old that I went to Bazaar to uh bring lunch for my uh, grandfather.[00:07:21] And he was selling materials and uh, side of the sidewalk and that was uh, near [terminals] that's all the busses coming from the other cities and village and a bus coming from that village that people they coming to city to uh, buying stuff and one of them they came to buy some material from my grandfather and he start to talk to him exactly the Jewish dialect. [00:07:57] His language. He knows that my grandfather understand this his dialect. And my grandfather start to talk to him and I was very surprised and I hinted to my grandfather because I know the way that he was uh, dressed he was not Jewish. So I said "Hey, he talking the same language as Jewish, is he Jewish?" and my grandfather shut me up and he said, "Don't. Shhhh." and I understood that uh, it's very dangerous that if he knows that we are Jewish. I guess so. [00:08:38] And after he explained to me what was happening. 

[00:08:41] Henry: What was your grandfather's name? 

[00:08:45] Zaki: The one that I talk about? Ezra.

[00:08:48] Henry: Good. and did you have a relationship with him? Did you visit him? 

[00:08:51] Zaki: Oh yeah. Very, very close relationship with [inaudible ]. His, his Hebrew name was Ezra but because he doesn't want to uh, declare himself to...they calling him Aziz. So yeah, yeah, yeah he, he doesn't have any boy, he has three daughter and uh, he loves me because I was his uh first boy uh born in a family so we had a very, very close relationship with him. [00:09:31] We, I was going to his home and he sometimes on his way to going back home he was coming to visit my mom, my, our family and...

[00:09:45] Henry: Do you remember some stories with him? Some special stories that stick in your mind? 

[00:09:51] Zaki: Yeah I, because in Iran the alcohol is a Muslim country, alcohol is forbidden. So every Jewish people they making their own wine. And this is sometimes was tolerated and every year he is doing his wine for the whole year. So he was a very good drinker he, when he was coming back from uh work for sure a bowl, not even a cup. [00:10:31] A bowl of wine has to be ready, his wife has to make it ready before his supper so. He was...good drinker so and after you know when his stomach is empty he drinks such a quantity he come a little bit high maybe so uh, he, he was...a little bit...not drunk really but, you know. [00:11:00] And uh [shapes] he was starting to have argument with his wife and when I was there front of me he was restrained. Because my grandma was saying, "Shhhh, not front of him, don’t don't say. Don't talk." So she was so happy that I was there. [00:11:28] She's safe that night. She don't have any argument with him. And um yeah always he was buying for me something or, you know, I mean, I was his uh, like uh cherish, cherished one and yeah, he was a nice guy. And...

[00:11:49] Henry: Did he teach you how to drink?

[00:11:52] Zaki: No. No, no. He was offering me but no, no. I was not interested to drinking that age. Really because I quit Isfahan and I was nine years old. And we came to Tehran. So and then he stay in Isfahan so what, I was visiting him only was during summer. I was going back three months to my uh, both grandparents, uncles, cousins, all of them they was in Isfahan so was visiting them. [00:12:34] All the summer. I was staying with them. So.

[00:12:38] Henry: And what was his wife's name? 

[00:12:40] Zaki: Uh....my grandma, or his wife's name was Kafi. [sp?]

[00:12:45] Henry: And uh, do you have memories of her also? 

[00:12:51] Zaki: Yeah a lot of memories. She was uh, smoking uh, what you call? Shisha. Yeah. And that's how is the, a lot of memories with her that she preparing the shisha and we have to...she was putting tobacco on it and making fire, put the fire on and then after she was pumping to adjust it and [inaudible]story and at that age I was having fun because the shisha was making bubbles and I [laughs] was interested to see the bubbles. [00:13:38] And I thought that this is something that only adults they could do and not kids, you know, so...yeah, yeah, she, she did, she was uh, doing, she smoking shisha until she passed away. She passed away I think. Age of 95. Oh yeah. 

[00:14:00] Henry: These are your father's parents. 

[00:14:02] Zaki: My mother parents. 

[00:14:03] Henry: Mother's parents. What about your father's parents?

[00:14:06] Zaki: My parent, my father parents with that we was living in the same house because my father, with his two brothers and my grandparents we was living in the same house. The house was very big and each person has their room in each side of the, of the, of that house. [00:14:30] And uh my grandfather side of my father he has a beard, white beard. He was religious, he always has his cap because he couldn't put a kippah on this is a cap. And uh that why he was working also uh until he pass away. Very, it was not really easy job that he was doing. He was doing the same thing as my father, as his other sons so...

[00:15:06] Henry: What kind of job was that? 

[00:15:08] Zaki: He was treating thread for after to be used for carpet. So uh, he, this you have walk a lot for that uh job and you have to transport like an instrument that was from wooden, that was heavy and uh, have to turn that to make turn the [thread] and that all was a long, haul, maybe, I could say, 200 meters or maybe 500 feet. [00:15:46] That you have to go, come back, go, come back and uh to connect them together and to after [come back]. And so was not very uh, paid job but that was the job that they always doing. And uh, and he uh teach me a lot and he...you know, a religious way whatever. [00:16:15] And, and the memory that I have from him because is that we, as I said we was living in the mahalé [ph], that's the Jewish place that uh, low-level and there is a Muslim that they living there also, [we are surrounded]. So they knew that my grandfather was Jewish because his beard and every time he passing on the small alley and whatever. [00:16:47] The Muslim they was bothering him, they taking his cap, throwing on the roof of the houses, uh, pulling his beard and or sometimes they taking his cap and they throw it in the sewers. And I was forceless, I couldn't really do anything because there was uh, people that they was most, mostly very around 20, 30 years old. [00:17:22] But I was what? I was seven, eight years old so what can I do? And I was seeing that my grandfather is very anxious and angry and insulting them and whatever so I was just hiding under his coat and I had a lot of pity for him and pain for him. So uh, that's uh, one of them. [00:17:53] The other one that we was going to shop in the market for fruit or vegetables. We was not allowed to touch anything to choose. The guy that salesman he says, "Don't touch it." because he's, you are "najess" [ph] that’s mean you're impure. 

[00:18:18] Henry: Impure. 

[00:18:18] Zaki: Yeah. And he comes and he choose whatever he want and he put it in a bag and put it in the balance and also he don't want to take the money directly, he said, "Put the money here." and he took the money and if there was some change he throw it away and that's uh, what I believe, I mean, I remember still. Everyday I remember this but uh...we couldn't do anything. [00:18:53] And this is story of most Jewish people that they living in those areas far from capitals and uh not north of the city obviously, south of the city uh… poorest people so that's what I remember from that time. 

[00:19:17] Henry: What was his name?

[00:19:17] Zaki: David. 

[00:19:19] Henry: David and his wife's name? 

[00:19:21] Zaki: Deborah. 

[00:19:24] Henry: And uh, your um, your parents lived in this place with uh your grandparents-

[00:19:33] Zaki: Yes, yes. 

[00:19:34] Henry: And what was your father's name?

[00:19:36] Zaki: Uh Hai [ph].

[00:19:38] Henry: And your mother's?

[00:19:39] Zaki: Masel. 

[00:19:40] Henry: And how did they meet? Do you know how they met?

[00:19:43] Zaki: Uh, yes. They told me that uh, they, my grandparents they saw my mother that he, she was walking with her parents so they asked them if she, your daughter is married so they said. "No" so they ask my father to come and to see her because they know what time she gonna pass there. [00:20:19] So my father came and saw her and they ask her so do you, her parents say, "Do you like it?" and after we see how the family how they are whatever. So, my father saw her and uh he said" Oh yeah, that's good." So uh after one night, one, after work they went to ask her hand from his parents. So uh, my father went with my parents, uh, his parents and uh, they for sure they said uh, yes. [00:21:02] God willing if he's if he's his [inaudible] and then after they star to go out together, not out in that we know now here and then [chuckles] they engage and they, they married. 

[00:21:21] Henry: What year did they get married ?

[00:21:23] Zaki: Oh they get married uh....oh… 80 years ago? 85, 82 years ago yeah. So uh, in 1949 I could say. Because I was born 1951 so they was married in 1941.

[00:21:52] Henry: And your dad, do you know when he was born? 

[00:21:55] Zaki: My dad was born in '20's. I don't know exactly the name, the years but he's uh, 94 years old now, 93, 94 so. 

[00:22:10] Henry: And your mother, when was she born? Do you know? 

[00:22:13] Zaki: Uh she born 85 years ago so she born in the beginning of the 30's. 

[00:22:21] Henry: So you're born in Isfahan and what language did your parents speak? 

[00:22:27] Zaki: Isfahani. 

[00:22:28] Henry: Isfahani. 

[00:22:29] Zaki: That's the dialect of the Jewish people in Isfahan. 

[00:22:33] Henry: And in the house they spoke Isfahani?

[00:22:36] Zaki: Oh yes, all, everywhere, yes. Isfahani. Very, only talking Farsi with Muslim but even that you could uh, find out that they are Jewish when they talking Farsi to the Muslims so they could, you could understand very easy that they are Jewish. 

[00:23:00] Henry: Did, as you grew up, you said you spent nine years in Isfahan and then you went to Teheran so while you still in Isfahan can you tell me what a Shabbat would be like in your house? 

[00:23:13] Zaki: Oh the Shabbat was totally uh, rest. First of all Friday night we was going to the Shul with parents, I mean with the fathers, uncles, cousins, everybody and then we come home and there was the only day in the week that we, they making a big tablecloth on the floor because we doesn't have chairs or tables on the floor. [00:23:44] And everybody, all the family sit around and they uh doing Kiddush, serving the Shabbat dinner and after they start to sing and uh, summer was outside and uh, winter was in the [one] of the room. The room was so big. [00:24:09] So each week was one of my uncle or my father turn to have to his room and uh, the day after uh, [exhales] 6:30, 7 o'clock it's too early, we get up to go the shul and coming back 9:30, or almost 9:00, 9:30 and again everybody sit around the tablecloth and eat. [00:24:36] And they was the only day of the week that they could, adults, they could do nap or talking and afternoon the outing of, ha ha, or entertainment and outing was that the men’s they are going on the street, I mean, nearest street, the place that they could sit on the, not benches, on the stone and they eating uh, pepita, I don't know what is eh uh, grain, you know.

[00:25:19] Lisette: Watermelon. 

[00:25:21] Zaki: Watermelon seeds or pumpkin seeds and uh yeah. [inaudible] and I was looking, watch, you know autobus goes, comes and buses and this was until that get time to go again back to the shul and then after come home and uh that was Shabbat. That was the only day that really they could a little bit rest. Because other days they going to work from 6 o'clock the morning until 8, 9 o'clock the night. [00:26:01] So uh it was very hard. That's, this is uh, was the whole every week, every day the same, same things. 

[00:26:14] Henry: Do you remember the name of the synagogue you went to? 

[00:26:17] Zaki: Yeah, the...Mullah Izhak [ph], Mullah is, in Iran, rabbi, it's uh called Mullah. And uh, Izahk it was his first name, it was a huge, huge synagogue that it was in alley and really those kind of synagogues pff, I think is a treasure today. So big, full of carpet, uh big bimah and the room it have uh like a full maybe 20 of uh...the torah. [00:27:04] And uh, all ceramics, a big dome in the middle with colourful eh glass, glass. uh it's unbelievable how I could explain that architecture of and how big those synagogue, not only this one, many, there was many of them in the, that little area. That was uh, Jewish people was going to. [00:27:41] And I don't really know really today what's happened to those synagogues. they close it off I don’t know what. This is something historical. Those synagogues can't see those things. I saw one similar in uh, Argentina because I went there five years ago and I went in one of the synagogues and this remind me like a cathedral uh, remind me that synagogue, our synagogue. [00:28:16] But uh there was, you know uh, hiding in alleys and you go and the big wooden, hard wood, uh door that you open and you get in and such a, sudden you see that wow. What a synagogue. Say wow, how they build that here? I don't know really today what's going on with that. 

[00:28:47] Henry: If I can go back to the Shabbat dinner, what kind of dishes would you mother make the dishes? Did she have help to make the dishes? Who made the dishes and what kind of food did you eat? 

[00:28:56] Zaki: Oh no, no. They- first of all Iranian uh, food custom, every food mostly has to be accompanied by rice. The Iranian rice is very famous so how they preparing, how they cooking it. And the other main, I mean, that's the things that come with it is uh, like, call it ghormeh sabzi. [00:29:29] This is something meat with vegetables are cooked like a stew and you taking, you mixing those rice separate and that bowl of that uh, ghormeh sabzi separate and you take uh, one spoon and you put that and you eat and that was for Friday night. [00:29:57] Saturday was a special again food that like other country that now today Moroccan they call it dafina or uh, Ashkenazi people call it tchoulent. In Iran also they have something similar to tchoulent. And that was also the base was rice but it was thick soup with chicken, stuffed chicken in and other uh vegetables like carrot and uh.. other vegetables in it. [00:30:36] And that was uh, very rich and sometimes they call it tchoulva [ph]sometimes they call it halim [ph] so these two kind of tchoulent [ph]. It was uh, traditional uh…food for Shabbat. 

[00:30:58] Henry: did you mother cook it or did she have help?

[00:31:01] Zaki: Oh no, no, mothers. No, no, no one we didn't have any helper or, no because who will bring it? Because the Muslims they don't want to come work for the Jewish because they are impure so no, no. Everybody do his own food. And uh...

[00:31:22] Henry: What about Passover? Tell me about Passover. 

[00:31:23] Zaki: Oh, Passover we, as a family, my father and his brothers and my grandfather we was doing our own matzah. Oh absolutely. That's wow, it's unbelievable what, how they, near Passover we had a special kitchen or place that was uh, other side of the home and uh, they making matzah that really the paste and after they make the straight. [00:32:07] And the matzah was a circle that I telling you maybe... [exhales] three feet diameters. Yes. No, no, not small. the matzah was big one. And yeah. And they make it, they make in fire and there is a circle uh, [inaudible] that they put over and they know how, when to turn it out and turn it and that he don't become really like bread. [00:32:45] And they make it all over to be dry and that was how, I still have a smell in my uh, head that you have [inaudible]. And that's another problem that we had. Because we have to be very careful when we was dong matzah because, I don't know why, how...what was the cause that the Muslim around the neighbourhood...[00:33:19] They thought that we making it with the blood of Muslim kids you see? So, oh, I remember two times they came and they searched the house, oh they were almost fight was gone. They destroy everything almost. That's uh, where is the person that you killed? Oh this was really, really shameful. Really shameful and I remember when I was kids I was five, six and it's really staying with my mind. [00:33:58] I was trembling and uh, when I think today how my parents and uncles and, was feeling, my grandpa and...so. It was not a place that the police is there or you could call police to come, you have to go maybe, pff, mile away to find out a policeman that they don't have no facilities to come, they have to walk and come. [00:34:31] In the meantime they gone and whatever. The police even comes what he could do? Nothing. ...this is a very, very...bad memories that I have. And the other things that the, the fun part, because in eh, for Passover everybody doing a lot of eh garonim [ph] you know uh, seeds, almonds, nuts and everything. [00:35:05] They uh, how we call, they broil it and they, they mix it up everything and especially the kids, they waiting for that time that uh, everybody has his uh pocket and they going to parents, the parents fill up their pocket to eat those pistaches, uh, almond, and seeds and whatever. [00:35:37] So whoever got more thing, wow, we was so proud so I remember that. My uncles you know, [inaudible] he wants to fool his kids that he give him many you know? So he put his hand inside the bag and he take but only here was inside was empty. Here was full and as a kid you think it's everything full. [00:36:05] So he's  [inaudible] in your pocket and he, and he put five six times and he was so happy that, wow, I got five, six hands of full of the things and so that's...oh yeah, I remember very well that and having fun and we found out later that we became older and we found out that wow, the kids because they was doing that to the kids and it was adult and we understand that wow [00:36:39] we gone through that also, you know? So, yeah [laughs]. 

[00:36:46] Henry: Did you go to school in Isfahan? 

[00:36:48] Zaki: Yes I went to Isfahan a school [overlap] Alliance Israélite yeah. 

[00:36:54] Henry: So you learned, what language did you learn there? Hebrew? 

[00:36:58] Zaki: Uh we had Farsi, all the secular was Farsi and we had one hour in the day Hebrew and one hour in the day French. But mostly we are, from 8 to 4 you was to school so six hours uh seculars and one hour Hebrew, one hour French. That's how we learned to read, to, to read Hebrew and to pray and whatever. So that was a huge, huge school and uh...

[00:37:38] Henry: Boys and girls?

[00:37:40] Zaki: They was next to each other but huge, huge school. That's a grade 1 until grade 12. I don't know what happened to those schools today but uh oh, it was best area of the city even and uh, very, very...a lot of students in that time. [00:38:05] And after it start [to go down] and today I don't know what, for sure exists still but it's not Jewish school anymore I don't think so. 

[00:38:16] Henry: Your, you said you were born in 1951.

[00:38:21] Zaki: Yes. 

[00:38:21] Henry: And do you have other sisters or brothers? 

[00:38:24] Zaki: Yes I have, after me, I am first born. After me, five sisters because I have to tell you also that so it's [Persian culture], or Jewish culture, Jewish culture especially uh, they like to have boys. Girls it's not welcome eh. And that was because they, when they get married the girls, they have to bring uh, 

[00:38:55] Lisette: Dowry.

[00:38:56] Zaki: Dots, what's it called? 

[00:39:00] Henry: Dowry.

[00:39:00] Zaki: Yeah and that's why the parents especially they was not wealthy it was a big problem for them. So uh, my parents, poor them they try five times to have another boy or, [or boy] so they get every time girls so after five they stopped because...he always said enough. [00:39:23] That's why my last sister name is Kefayat [ph] and Kefayat in the Persian language is "enough". So, but there is people that they name is that. But the meaning of this mean uh, enough. 

[00:39:44] Henry: You said that at nine years old you left Isfahan and you came to Teheran.

[00:39:48] Zaki: [overlap] Teheran yes. 

[00:39:50] Henry: Why did your parents leave Isfahan?

[00:39:52] Zaki: We really left Isfahan because for better life. For uh, uh we left Isfahan in the middle of the Great [inaudible] and we came to Teheran that's uh thinking that my father could do better living. And it was very hard what he was doing in Isfahan so we came [in] Teheran and start to be partners with someone else to selling tissues. Material, tissues. [00:40:33] And that was not also really easy. He work hard but uh in the beginning maybe it was okay but after no. Really doesn't make uh the, he couldn't make a living with all the kids and everything only by that. [00:41:00] So sometimes after work or middle of the day he goings to, because my father was religious and he knows really to read and to translate and doing, you know, sermon, that’s talking about uh, [kiddush] so he was going to the house, is the wealthy people that they had years of the parents, you know, uh, [inaudible] the parents that was anniversary of their parents that they pass away so that day they bring someone to read, tell him to read [inaudible] the Torah and whatever. [00:41:51] So they was inviting my father to go to their house and uh after three, four hours whatever, after meals that day they pay my father. So that's was helping him also. So uh, that's uh, and also myself I knew that we are in difficulties so I was good in school and uh, the parents of the other students knows that I am good. [00:42:27] And they hire me to helping the kids. So after school I am, when I finish my homework whatever I am going to the other houses, the, especially the wealthy people and to help their kids and they pay me, not too much but, you know, was for me it was good. [00:42:52] And sometimes they knew that our family is not so rich sometimes, you know, they giving uh, clothes or especially when holidays come they bringing some basket whatever to our, my parents. We thought that we know. 

[00:43:14] Henry: And when you were helping the children was it in Hebrew or was it in...

[00:43:18] Zaki: No, especially in secular. Mathematics yeah. 

[00:43:22] Henry: And did just your family come or did your uncles and aunts, or your grandparents? 

[00:43:28] Zaki: Come where? 

[00:43:28] Henry: To Tehran. 

[00:43:29] Zaki: No. Only my parents came. 

[00:43:31] Henry: Only your parents. 

[00:43:31] Zaki: Yeah. 

[00:43:32] Henry: And where did you live in Tehran? What area? 

[00:43:35] Zaki: Oh that's also was in the Jewish area, that was also called Mahalé yeah. It was there yeah because my father wants to live near a synagogue, near the kosher butchery and, you know, schools and whatever so we lived that area, that was also very low level. [00:44:03] That was also, we had a bad uh situation with uh Muslim that was from neighbourhood uh. I thought that that was only in Isfahan, that it was uh treated but in that area also we was not well treated. So that's, we doesn't have a choice until uh I graduate. 

[00:44:34] Henry: What school did you go to in...

[00:44:36] Zaki: Alliance also. 

[00:44:37] Henry: Alliance also? 

[00:44:37] Zaki: Yes, yes. 

[00:44:38] Henry: And you graduated from what grade? 

[00:44:41] Zaki: I graduated grade 12 in Alliance. 

[00:44:44] Henry: In what year was that? 

[00:44:45] Zaki: It was in 19...69. 

[00:44:50] Henry: So let me take you back through some of the years of the '60's. This is under the Shah. 

[00:44:54] Zaki: Yes. 

[00:44:56] Henry: So was your father or you, your family, were they involved in any Zionist or any Jewish organisations? 

[00:45:04] Zaki: Not really because no. They didn't uh was part of it because they was very simple people, very you know, low profile people and they was very scary, very, I remember scary and uh, you know, just walking head down, not involved in anything only going to synagogue every morning, come back and go work and come back. [00:45:37] And no, until uh, the aliyah [emigration to Israel] start so some of uh, my family they start to do aliyah. First start with my aunt and his family that they went to Tehran and from Tehran they call it Suhounout [ph] they take it off them and they bring them to Israel. 

[00:46:06] Henry: What year was that? 

[00:46:07] Zaki: Uh that was in '60...beginning of '60's. Yeah. Yeah. Very beginning of '60. And after that was my uncle that, with his kids, because he has 6, 7 kids and they knew that there's no future for them and they have difficulty to leave so they left and they went to Israel. [00:46:36] They did aliyah. My other uncle tried to go but, poor him he had a handicap daughter, mentally hand, uh handicap because when she was kid she got, I think meningitis and she...became uh, I think mentally sick. And they didn't accept the family because of her. That was very, really, I remember, really, really, because they, they really wants healthy people. [00:47:16] They wants, you know, people that they come over there, they don't want someone on the shoulder so he, for him, his life was finished. Because they didn't accept him to go and uh, he didn't have a choice he continue. And...his children grow up  and they get married and they still, the kids, my cousins from that one they are in Isfahan still. Yeah. 

[00:47:53] Henry: If you were born in '51, you were 16 during 1967 and the Six Day war. 

[00:47:59] Zaki: Oh yes. 

[00:48:00] Henry: Do you remember that at all? 

[00:48:01] Zaki: Oh I remember very well. I remember very well because what we was hearing in the beginning that "Wow, Israel is destroyed" all the news that, oh today they got Tel Aviv and the afternoon they coming and they said they got Jerusalem and almost all the Jewish people they are on the sea and uh they throw them onto the sea and there is no more Jewish and there is no more Israel. [00:48:33] Ah, and all the Muslim they was very feast and, you know, they giving candies to everyone and they was doing uh, those noises that you doing when there is a wedding, you know, helelelele. And, pff, no Jews was really has the courage to go to their street because he was beaten like [inaudible] [00:49:01] Because you know, and after three days we start to hear that wow, all this news was opposite. And they start to give, you know, slowly they change the version so uh, still we was very afraid to come out because they want revenge on us, so...[00:49:30] After a few days the head of the communities they went to the authorities and they said that we are in danger, we need protection and...and the government was very good with the Jewish people but the people, especially the people that they are uh no educated, low class and Jewish people they was living around, you know, mostly those areas, that was the problem. [00:50:06] So they sent some more securities in those area and we start to come out and, you know, to make normal but it's still after that it's...the [inaudible] [state]. I remember uh, 1968 I think, one year after it was Asian cup, the soccer Asian cup. And the six finalists uh, there was doing competition and that was in Iran. [00:50:50] For first time ever Israelian soccer team they was playing in the Muslim country. First time ever happened. So the Israelian uh, team they came and they, first match was Iran with Hong Kong I think and very uh, but with difficulty Iran won. But I think two, three days after it was Israelian team that they was playing and they play against, I think that they play against the same team. [00:51:37] And they beat them 6 to 1. Wow. The people was astonished. What a team! What a falls, wow! They destroyed that team and we just won them with a very misery one and one. The people was not happy and so...uh.[00:52:05] I want really to go to see one of these games, you know? I never went to the biggest stadium and so we, with friends, we managed to go and uh was uh, I think Israel was playing against China. So we went there and we saw that wow, the stadium is full and very, very uh...how to call, uh...

[00:52:38] Henry: Atmosphere? 

[00:52:39] Zaki: Atmosphere in me...

[00:52:43] Henry: Vibrant. 

[00:52:45] Zaki: Yeah, violent atmosphere. It was their anger. And the people they was uh, doing "China! China!" Even they know that this is not China because it's against Israel, you know? And "Down to Israel, down to Israel!" So the Israel start to, you know, play and uh, they score. [00:53:15] [laughs] They was not happy those guys. Some of my friend they got up and they start to say "Wow!" and wow, wow, wow we saw that, who is around us and we was really, really, really scared. Do we stay or do we go? You know? So we stayed and uh, China scored one goal and those people they took cigarette and they light it up and they throw it on us. [00:53:50] The cigarette it was lighted and everything. Wow, wow. And spitting at us [wooof], this was crazy. So...anyway the last, the final was between Iran and Israel. So...so I think in the half time was 1-1. And everybody was talking that what's gonna happen if Israel gonna win, the whole area gonna be in fire. [00:54:26] Absolutely. All, every Jewish home is going to be in fire. So uh I think that what I was told, because if you see the match today that one Iranian...I mean Israelian player he score in his own goal. They arrange it that he score. It was not last [feet] that was from Iran so I think at half time it was someone went to speak to them. [00:55:11] Some authority somewhere said, "You guys maybe you leave tomorrow here. But if you want to [inaudible] Jewish people that live here do something." [laughs] So they lost two to one. And it was wow. It was huge festival and whatever so, it was safe, it was safe and uh we don't have a choice that in public we say, "Wow, Iran" you know? You cannot [laughs] do it for Israel whatever. [00:55:45] So that's really, I remember, I remember. And this was first time that Israelian flag was in somewhere public in Iran, in Muslim country. Because that's what I said, the government he...was good relation with the Israel or Jewish people but the people they never accept that and the problem I think is start in Iran after that. [00:56:14] That there was uh, in uh, I think in pfff, '68 or '69 they started doing big blowout revolution that was the time that they sent to exile Khomeini And I remember that. I was in school and all of a sudden the water that you opened become red because the attacked the, the sewers of the water. [00:56:53] They put some chemical thing in to make it scare the people and there was in the street to doing, and I for first time in my life I saw a tank in the street. Because any attroupement, any more than three, four people together they walking in the street not gun, not machine gun. [00:57:23] It was with a canon that they was attacked. So they matted [ph] that revolution and that was the beginning of the ten years after that that revolution happened so. That's also make a lot of people to do aliyah This is the beginning of mass aliyah in Jewish population, diminish, the Jewish population diminished in Iran and they went to Israel most of them. [00:57:58] Or other countries, whatever. 

[00:58:00] Henry: Let me go back and ask just two or three questions. Your grandparents, when they, your grandmother, when they dressed , did they dress in traditional dress of the day or were they dressed more modern? 

[00:58:17] Zaki: No, they uh, dressed everybody with tchador. 

[00:58:21] Henry: They did. 

[00:58:22] Zaki: Yeah. Everybody. Long dress and whatever but they had a tchador. 

[00:58:29] Henry: And your mother? 

[00:58:31] Zaki: Yes, absolutely. Everybody had tchador. 

[00:58:33] Henry: When your mother came to Teheran, did she still wear...

[00:58:37] Zaki: Uh, in the beginning yes but after few years become more relaxed uh, just  covered hair, covered hair only with a, a foulard. Scarf but not tchador, you know? 

[00:59:03] Henry: Did you have any Muslim friends? 

[00:59:07] Zaki: Uh, not really [inaudible] not in Iran. 

[00:59:12] Henry: Did Muslim friends, did Muslims ever come into your parent's home or did you parents ever go visit Muslim homes? 

[00:59:19] Zaki: Not at all, no. No. 

[00:59:23] Henry: So what made you leave? When did you leave and why? 

[00:59:27] Zaki: Uh, that's make me leave after I graduate uh from high school. I had three choice: continue in university in Iran but that's very difficult because there is contest and they don't accept, maybe 10 000 people graduate, I just give proportion only thousand they are admitted. And you have to be, even there is a contest is a lot of collusion and fraud that they doing. [01:00:04] You have to be some or relative to the elite people. That they are connected to the government so very, very difficult to get in. Second choice: you going to do your army because army is compulsory, two years you have to go. And third choice is that you could go to study in another country but you have to put a guarantee to come back to do your military service. [01:00:40] So I choose the third because I knew that I can't do, first of all even if I am accepted in university, my parents can't pay for that. And I didn't want to go lose two years in army and third one, because I knew that my friend's brothers they went to U.S. to other countries, mostly U.S. and they work and they studied. [01:01:13] And every summer almost they coming back in Iran they going first to Germany, they buying car and they driving to Iran and then after two, three months that they pass in Iran, they selling this car, very expensive that is paid their trips and also make some money to go back. [01:01:39] So I said, wow, that's great and after that they gonna be, you know, uh, educated and whatever. So I, this make me uh also uh, to go there, to do that way. So uh when I graduate I start to find out how to get out and, first of all in, in school that I was in, Alliance, the one hour a day was French so you have to choose a country that you have to go to pass a contest. [01:02:19] And that was German, Russian, English and French. Four language you have to pass which one you choose and you pass. It was not very difficult test what, at least you have to know something. So I choose French because I didn't know English nothing. And after that if you are, uh, getting accepted this was not the, the rate of the accepting also was not too high. [01:02:54] Because they don't want be a lot of people goes out. So I was in the 50's I think, they accept 50 by years in each language. So after you get that you going to passport office. Passport office need your guarantee. Guarantee has to be a property that is cost value $30 000 at least or $30 000 tuman [ph] of Iran in the bank or a commerce that is worth $30 000. [01:03:38] So I know that we don't have none of them but we knew that uh, there is some people that they are corrupted and those uh...process. So we have to find out who is it because you cannot go and say, "Hey, I give you this money make me this." because if the person is honest hey you're in trouble you know? So, it took me six months almost to found out who is getting bribes so we knew someone that knew someone but this guy he was intermediary. He say- he taking $10 000, I'm sure he giving only $5000 to that and he put $5000 in his pocket. [01:04:27] So he doesn't have that money really to pay. So that why it took me six months to know who is that person. So by following this guy so uh, after I was sure found out that that guy so uh, I went. I took all my courage in hand, I was 17 and I went to his house and in Iran, most of middle-east country from 1 o'clock afternoon till four everybody is home because it's hot. [01:05:02] And you are doing nap. So around 2 o'clock after I said, okay now he maybe he's finishes his lunch, before he go to nap I went to knock knock the door and his wife came and said, "Yes?" I said this is Mister X home?  "Yes." Could I see him? "Yes. Who I have to announce?" I said he don't know me but my name is this. [01:05:33] So he went, she went and the guy came. And the guy came he said with very threatening voice he said, "What is it?" Wow, phew. I was almost shut up because I scared, I was trembling. So I said uh, uh, uh, uh, excuse me, I want to go to study in uh, foreign and I need you fixing my guarantee that I could go get passport and I pay whatever you want. [01:06:13] He said ,"Could you repeat that again? One more? I, maybe I heard wrong." He was testing me. So I said, wow, do I have to repeat again? So he was waiting so I didn't have a choice, I couldn't turn back and go. He gonna get me and, you know. So I, again I psyched myself very strong and I told him that this is the story, I want to...[01:06:42] So not one, not two, without any uh, warning he smashed me in the face that my head absolutely turned, it was very strong hand and uh, my tears, instead of falling, they came out like this. Because I saw almost a star. I was not expecting that because that's when I said "without warning. I didn't know how this smash came from. [01:07:16] So he said, "Get out of here." Bastard or whatever, whatever, names and I was crying so his wife heard that I was crying and I think she heard this smash and she doesn't wants that the neighbours be aware. [01:07:37] So she came with her tchador and said, "What is it? What happened?" and he, the guy he, he close the door on me gone but I was behind the door and I was crying. So she opened the door and said, "Oh what happened? Don't cry, what happened? What happened?" And I couldn't talk because I was [gasping]. I couldn't talk. So she went and she brought me a  glass of water. [01:08:04] And she gave it to me and said, "Ok, calm down, calm down. Tell me, tell me what is it? Tell it, what happened?" So I told her that this is the story and whatever, she said, "Okay, okay my son, sit down. Sit down. Yes, sit down sit down." I'm gonna speak to him, I'm gonna speak to him. So I think she went and she speak after five minute he came. [01:08:26] [laugh] I was thinking, this is my last minute of life, you know? He was very, very big and tall and threatening guy. I said, I'm finished. No one don't know I'm here. I'm finished no one ever gonna found me. So he said, "Listen to me. Did someone follow you?" I said no. No one don't know I'm here. So I said, if he ask me this, he wants to kill me because he wants to know if somebody is aware. [01:09:02] So I said no, no one know. Uh, he said, "If ever, never someone found out that you told me this and I'm going to do that for you, not only  you gonna be six feet under, all your family gonna go." I said yes, promise. No problem, promise. He said, "Okay, tomorrow morning $5000 that place notary." [01:09:36] Give me address of the notary so uh, the first time in the life I had $5000 in my pocket. And this was money that maybe four summer, four years I work for it. Because I knew that I have to get out and become someone and come back to help parents at least to be a cane for them, support them. [01:10:10] Because I knew that you can't make a living anymore. So I put my money in and was walking and I was always looking back to see if someone following me because someone is going to attack me, he knows that I have $5000 in my pocket or whatever. So until I got there I went up the stairs and he was waiting for me whatever. No, before we go up he was on there he said, "Where is the money?" [01:10:41] So I take it and gave it to him and it's, he counted. He said, "Okay." So....no I put $4500 in one pocket and $500 in the other one, no, no, I remember now. Because I want to save, you know, $500 because I had it. I need money to, to, you know, to buy ticket, whatever, I was very [inaudible]. So he counted and he saw that it's not $5000. [01:11:16] So he throw it on the floor, oh shit. He said, "Go to the hell. You don't play this with me. I don't want to do anything for you, you are this and you are that." And I said, ok, ok, ok, I'm sorry because the other $500 I want to buy a watch, I don't have a watch please. He said, "No, I don't care. I don't want to do anymore. Finished. I don't want to do business with you. Finished. Go away." [01:11:43] No, no, no, no, ok, ok, ok, ok, I took out $500 and I took the money on the floor I said, "Please, please, I begging you please." He took it and he said, "Don't do ever that again. You remember what I told you earlier?" Yes. "Promise?" Promise. Ok, go up. And they did bang, bang, bang, stupid uh...deed of the pff, land that I don't know if exists even in the world. And they put a stamp on it and they give it to me and that how I ran to passport office and I showed and gave them. And they gave me the passport. [01:12:26] Passport that I got I have to get it, uh, acceptance from a university uh, to uh, to go to study. The university that I passed the language. So I don't know any university nowhere, I don’t know nothing so there was a office of translator, was a Jewish guy, that he knew French and English. And he took all my document from a school translate it and he had the address of the universities and he wrote applications and he sent. [01:13:10] He sent one here in Montreal in École Polytechnique, French language, engineering school and the other one he send it to Harvard. Because I told him that I want to go to U.S. but they don't, I can't go because I have to choose this so, you know what? On my way to Montreal maybe I go to U.S. embassy and I ask them to give me a visa tourist and I try to change it or whatever. [01:13:40] So that's what he did. I get accepted into both. 

[01:13:46] Henry: To Harvard. 

[01:13:47] Zaki: Harvard and Polytechnique. So I brought everything, I hide it that one, the Harvard, I hide it. I didn't have a [inaudible]. But I went to Canadian embassy to get a visa. So whatever so you have to bring your parents that they sign that they gonna pay all of your expenses. So uh, the translator was there so what I did, because one of my friend he passed through that and I every time go ask so when you go there what they told you? What question they ask? How is this? How is that?  And he told me everything. [01:14:38] So now I have to prepare my father. So he never had, never had a costume. Oh he was, jacket he had and pants, not the same colour, never ever in his life had a tie never, ever. He don't know what he's, how to close it and I borrow from my friend pants and suit and tie and also suitcase. [01:15:08] And I said, "Dad, you have to come, you know that I want to go study and become engineer and you know, after I'm gonna come and we gonna be here like, shoop, top of the...society and whatever and now they need that you sign up for going to, I'm going to study and you have to pay. [01:15:34] So they gonna ask you, first of all you have to wear this and they're gonna ask you what is your uh, doing job? What is it? So you're gonna say that you're selling Persian carpet. They gonna ask you where is your store, you gonna say that street. Because that street is street of Persian carpet commerce. And they gonna ask you uh this is your son? You will say yes and how much you want to pay for him for his supporting whatever. [01:16:06] And you gonna say $300 every month you gonna pay plus the tuition. And that's it. That's what you're gonna say. So okay, now first time I see my father wear a suit, tie and a suitcase there's nothing in. And we went, we went up the, oh I was trembling all the time. My father, very naive, you know, I said what if they ask him something else, what he gonna ask? [01:16:40] Does he remember, so I practice, practice with him and when he was walking. And we went up and start this questions until "How much you gonna pay?" So he said $300, he's my son, I'll pay. And then I pay for university also. The guy translated. So the guy told him, "Tell him it's not enough." Wow, I heard. So I cannot say to my father what to say. [01:17:11] So then I was waiting to see what the hell he going to answer. Does he gonna say he told me to say? What he gonna say? And I was screwed up. And I couldn't...look at him, doing a sign, whatever. I just look the [counsellor]. So after five, six, maybe long second he said, "Oh, you know what? "Oh, what he gonna say? "This is my son and I'm gonna pay whatever you want. How much I have to pay?" Wow. you know? I was wet but now it's phew. [01:17:59] So the guy said $500. He said, "No problem I'm gonna pay $500." Sign here. $500, sign. And the guy he give the visa and we came down and then downstairs I hug him, I kiss him, "Dad I'm proud of you. Thank you. You so smart what you said whatever." So and then after he, I went to buy a ticket and this was very hard to separate with them, from them. [01:18:34] Because well, I am their only son and uh, very attached to me so uh, I came to U.S. first and I went to U.S. Embassy and asked them for a tourist visa because I had a good reason because I had my student visa. I said, "Listen, on the way I'm going to visit my friend in New York two weeks and after I going to Canada. This is my applic...admittance, admission I mean, and I'm going there." [01:19:11] And now he start to testing me, because many people, student they went to U.S. and they doing a lot of troubles there against the Shah and they was controlling very hard the student  who go to U.S. so he start to testing me. "Why you don't want study in U.S.?" No I don't want because uh, I don't know English, I know French and I have admittance there and I want to go there. I don't want to...[01:19:45] "No, he said, no it's better to U.S. go to U.S. to study." I know that he testing me. I said, "No sir, I really don't want. I don't write and talk English and this is all translated." and he said, "You know what? Even better, I'm gonna give you a immigrant visa. You want to be American? I gonna give it to you. I'm a nice guy." [01:20:12] I said, "No thank you, I really don't want to stay in U.S." and after that he said, "You sure?" I tell him that I'm absolutely sure, pff. He gave me the visa. I was so happy. But he start to write on there. I said it's normal if he write, I cannot read what he writing. So I went to U.S. and my friend said, "No, no problem, we gonna fix you up, you gonna change your tourist to a student whatever." He said, "Okay form application $25" and I took out my Harvard admittance and I put it and I sent it to immigration. Three months later letter came and he said, "Why did you lie to our consul in Iran?"[01:21:04] How they know I lied? Oh if you didn't want to study to U.S. why you said you, ( ) why you change your mind? And they send me those written that was writed on the visa that this student is not allowed to uh, study in U.S. He just passing by. So that's why he told us that he don't want. So this is that if you don't want why you had already the admittance from Harvard at Tehran address? [01:21:42] So I was screwed up, out. So they send me out and I came here September '70 and I know no one, I didn't know anyone. Ph where to go? you know when you coming to Dorval at that time I came from U.S. and taxi comes one after each other and said, "Where are you wanna go?" So I said, "I am a student, no money, no hotel. I am at University de Montréal a student." You know, this broken language. [01:22:21] So they guy he thought and he start and he go, he brought me in the road and I see that he going top of the mountain almost and he brought me to St-Joseph oratory [interviewer laughs]. There is a small house is there, rooms I mean, makes to Frère André and he...bring me up, he present me to priest and he said, "This guy is student, he don't have money, try to help him whatever." [01:22:57] So he took, take care of me and [inaudible] me to a room and I was knocked down because I was not sleep last two nights because I was with my friend or whatever and it was very hard for me to leave where I am going now, I am going to nowhere, no man's land. Canada, whatever. [01:23:21] Oh yeah, I don't have a choice, I came back becau- I came here because if not I have to go to back Iran and do military service and I would have screwed us, that's it. So that's why I came here and three, four months after I found a friend and we took a apartment and start. [01:23:37] And then I finished my degree and I wants to go back to Iran and they said "Whoa, no. Stay there." because that was revolution happening. So uh the plan change, everything change. I stay here and they went to Israel. 

[01:23:59] Henry: Your parents. 

[01:24:00] Zaki: Yes, yes, they went to, they did aliyah

[01:24:04] Henry: What year was that?

[01:24:05] Zaki: It was '75. Yeah. [inaudible] And uh, that's it. They left because it was hard for my sister to get married in Iran. As I mentioned at that- when you have a lot of girls you have to pay a lot so...for..

[01:24:27] Henry: So they moved to Israel, you were here.

[01:24:29] Zaki: Yeah. 

[01:24:30] Henry: And you got a degree in what field? 

[01:24:34] Zaki: Engineering. 

[01:24:34] Henry: And did you marry? 

[01:24:35] Zaki: Yes. And I went back to get married, this is a long story. 

[01:24:42] Henry: Went back, where did you go back? 

[01:24:44] Zaki: To Iran. 

[01:24:44] Henry: You went back to Iran [overlap]

[01:24:46] Zaki: But not officially. Not uh, underground because if I go back officially I have to do military service, I was deserter for them. 

[01:25:00] Henry: How did you get back in without a passport? 

[01:25:04] Zaki: I was smuggled. 

[01:25:05] Henry: You were smuggled. And what year was that? 

[01:25:11] Zaki: In the '79, beginning of '80. 

[01:25:15] Henry: After the revolution. 

[01:25:16] Zaki: Yes, beginning of revolution. 

[01:25:18] Henry: At the beginning of the revolution you got yourself smuggled back into Iran?

[01:25:22] Zaki: Yes. 

[01:25:25] Henry: Do we have time for this story? ( ) Please. ( )We can take a break and then hear the story. 

[01:25:44] Zaki: No it's okay. 

[01:25:47] David: It's okay. The sun's come up so the exposure technically we're having a little problem. Is there anything we can do? ( )

[01:26:05] Henry: You came to Canada, you got a degree and then...

[01:26:08] Zaki: I started work. 

[01:26:09] Henry: Started to work...

[01:26:10] Zaki: And get some experience and after almost to go back and that with this experience and the study that I had I was going back to Iran. It was top of the society and a good revenue, whatever. So the plan changed because the revolution and the troubles start and my parents quit and uh, they my sisters remain. 

[01:26:40] Henry: Your sisters remained in Iran.

[01:26:42] Zaki: Two, yeah, two of them was already married.

[01:26:45] Henry: In Iran. 

[01:26:45] Zaki: Yeah and uh, they said okay now at least come to visit, you have to get married and whatever and uh, we want to talk to your kids and uh, if you marry the Canadian whatever uh it's gonna be hard for us. They say not the same culture whatever. So pushing me, pushing me. I said, "You know what? It's nine years I didn't visit them so I'm going to visit them. [01:27:18] So how I go visit? I can't go officially because they said "Oh you finished your study and you have to now come back and do your military service." And I'm gonna be stuck there so I can't go officially there in the airport. So I knew that. Some of my friends that they was studying with me high school they graduate and thy didn't uh, go  continue education. They went to work to do business. [01:27:54] So they went to Germany to uh carpet business, Persian carpet business. So I know these guys they always going to Iran and come back and they going always with a truck, big truck. And they sometimes they bring merchandise but when they come back they’re full of the carpet. So I asked them if they could manage me, handle me to get to Iran. [01:28:26] So they said no problem come, we are actually we going that date. So uh, I arrange here from my job and I went Frankfurt and from there the day after we start to...drive. It takes us three, four days to get to Bulgaria and Turkey and near the border I was shaking. I was very, very nervous. [01:28:59] So they bought in the way some scotch, alcohol and they start, maybe half an hour before the border to make me drink to calm down. And really I was first time that I ever drink such a quantity [chuckles]. And I was knocked down. [01:29:29] So they put me in the trunk, in the back of the big truck and put some uh bags, merchandise bag on me. Pff, so they wait until the guard change because they knew they was friends with some guards. So uh, in that time I was completely gone, sleep. So I don't know after. They told me after this is four hours but I woke up because when the truck is movement like a baby you sleeping. 

[01:30:08] So when they stop I woke up so I said, "Where I am?" I was dark. And I just heard outside the people was talking. So I said, what language they are talking? So they was talking Turkish but in Iran there is a province that's called Azerbaïdjan and those people they talking Turkish also. [01:30:41] I can't differentiate the Turkey and Turkey you know? 

So I knew it was Turkey. So I said, wow, wow, we didn't pass yet? Maybe it's trouble, maybe they catch us, maybe...So until he opened the trunk, the door and he came to see if I am sleeping or not and I was trembling. I said, who's coming up now? [01:31:06] I thought it's a...border guard or police or whatever. And I was...like this and he came, he said, "Okay, you are there." Where are we? He said, 'You're in Tebriz." Are you sure? "I am telling you. Look over there." He showed me a sign that it was in Farsi so I was sure that we are in Iran. [01:31:37] So uh, I hug him and, you know, he was thanks god. So we drove again two days and we went to Tehran and I went to my sister because we didn't want to go to that place that I was born. Neighbours know me, maybe someone is going to stool me. So um after thirty [?] days they start to having uh reception and inviting people that they have, girl in age of married. [01:32:15] Relatives, friends, whatever. So I was not really thinking about it but reception is a reception, you know, and sometime my sister comes, "Hey what do you think about that girl or whatever?" I say, "Are you stupid? Please, leave me alone. I just here for one month and, I said, if “I'm not in this mood anymore or this culture anymore." Said , "No I didn't say you had to get married, it's, you know, see and pff, after you come if you're interested you get married after. Just, you know, choose one."

[01:32:54] So uh, three times in a row they make a reception [laughs]. And every night was ten families and more they was coming with, that's how they people they are entertaining themselves. They don't have nowhere to go or whatever. They doing reception to everybody [inaudible] house. [01:33:19] So until I said, "Oh, that one is not bad." So I said okay, go talk to her, and whatever. I start to talk to her. And uh, we said okay could we see you tomorrow? After tomorrow? Whatever? "Yeah." so we went out a few times, out is not like here out, you have to be very careful. Out, go out. [01:33:50] So, there is no coffee house or take a beer or whatever, you know? Just walking in the street and whatever. So uh, I said okay, you know what? I don't have no one in Canada and uh, are you sure you will want to get serious with me, whatever? I tried to make her, discourage, you know? [01:34:22] "It's very cold over there. No family. No whatever." and she said, "No, no matter, one day I have to get married and I don't gonna live always with my parents and if really like or love someone so, I'm gonna go with her wherever he go." So was sure that she don't gonna come here and make one...what we call? Depressed problem or anxious problem [laughs], you know I cannot babysitting because I have to work. [01:35:09] Though she was solid. Said okay, so uh, I cannot get married now, I am going back and you and your family you come to Israel and whatever you gonna get married because I can't come here anymore. So that's uh, we did a small engagement after three weeks I think and I, the same way that I come in I came out. [01:35:40] This time smuggling the carpet. Oh, beautiful carpet. Wow. Very, very expensive carpet. And that's...we went back to Turkey and then after six months later I think it was corresponding and whatever the time that they get passport paper. 

[01:36:09] Because for Jewish people it's very difficult to get out Iran. They have to remain half of family there and there half of family they get passport. And um that's how they did, few kids they remained or whatever, sisters, brothers but her parents with one of the sisters, not with her husband, her brother [inaudible] [01:36:39] so he came to Israel and whatever, we get married and again, they didn't let me to come with her because I was honest to the Canadian consulate that this, we get married and I am Canadian citizen and uh, she is coming with me so, so the purpose is immigrant, immigration. Doesn't goes like this. [01:37:06] Have to do all process and everything then after. But if i was saying that she coming as a tourist it was, the chance was very high. So now please after we gonna come back, what is she gonna do? We just got married? Nothing to do. Nope. It doesn't go like this you have at least , at least six months. Wow. [01:37:36] So I get married and she, I have to come back. So I come back and I start to doing all the process and was taking time and after four months I saw that we don't go nowhere. So I was lucky that my uh, MP was Pierre Trudeau who in the riding was Mont-Royal because I was in Côte des Neiges area. [01:38:10] And someone told me, you know what? Go to his office, hid riding office and give hell and maybe it's gonna work. I was very up to here, you know, I saw after four months even the paper didn't move. So I went there and I started say, "What is this? I pay all my taxes, I am Canadian citizen and the people they come here as a refugee even and you pay them and whatever. I wanted my wife, piece of paper, whatever." [01:38:45] I did hell. So the secretary said, "Okay, okay calm down. Calm down. Calm down. We gonna write to Prime Minister and we gonna ask that you are one of your, his supporters [laughs] and whatever and maybe he doing a special [ministries] Minister permit yeah." So I said, "Okay do it." because it's no fair, whatever. 

[01:39:17] So the week after I receive a letter that you're, we sent the permit minister by cable to uh, Canadian embassy in Israel and tell to your wife to go there to present and take it. So I told her, so that took two, max three weeks I think. That was minister permit special and that she come and to do the process here. [01:39:50] And then after then he, she wanna really be wanna get the immigrant visa she has to go out of country, or Boston or New York and over there they give a stamp and come back. So I said, "No problem." And that took another six, seven months. So I don't care she's here. [01:40:14] So uh, that's how she get her immigrant and this was uh, after I want to send her to French school and uh, she started and in the middle she got pregnant and pregnancy was very hard. She couldn't continue so we had our first child and after the child got seven, eight months said okay they have a garderie there in the, that school. [01:40:48] And you go learn French and bring the baby. And okay, go she start and uh, after second day when she has a break she went behind the door to see if she hear my son, the baby [laughs], six, seven months if he's quiet or...[01:41:12] So she recognize that he is crying like hell. She opened the door and she saw that my son is sitting in middle of the floor and five, six kids around him. He crying and everybody look at him [laughs]. He was crying tears and she heartbroken. She grabbed my child, my son and came out and said "To the hell, I don't go anymore to this school. My child is more important. [01:41:49] If you see my child how it was crying whatever so, finished the school, finished. And she didn't go to learn French. And uh, again she got pregnant, the children were two years apart so after that she don't have time to go school whatever so that's it. 

[01:42:11] Henry: Your wife's name is...

[01:42:13] Zaki: Tikva 

[01:42:14] Henry: Tikva. 

[01:42:14] Zaki: Yeah. 

[01:42:15] Henry: And your children's names?

[01:42:17] Zaki: David, Deborah, Nathaniel and Esther. 

[01:42:20] Henry: And when your wife Tikva came here did she know English at all?  

[01:42:24] Zaki: No, no, no. 

[01:42:26] Henry: Just..

[01:42:27] Zaki: Just Persian

[01:42:28] Henry: Just Persian. And did she also wear a scarf or a burqa?

[01:42:33] Zaki: No, no, never burqa. No. Tchador in Iran yes but when she came here, no, no no. She, she dressed like everyone. No, this is not really Jewish culture to put tchador but you have to do it if you are in Iran. But you are out of Iran, some people here they still hat or whatever or they put a scarf so. 

[01:43:05] Henry: So you left in 1970.

[01:43:07] Zaki: Yes. 

[01:43:08] Henry: Which was under the Shah. 

[01:43:09] Zaki: Yes. 

[01:43:10] Henry: And you said the Shah was good to the Jewish people. 

[01:43:13] Zaki: Yes, yes, I said that they, they had, in that time Israel has an embassy in Iran, in Tehran. They have very good relationship and El Al company twice a week he has direct flight to Teheran and Tel Aviv. So things get really worse starting I say '76. [01:43:41] Everybody was feeling that something's happening and that was politics and...

[01:43:51] Henry: And when you went back in "79 or...to visit your sisters was it harder for the Jews then. Did you get some sense from your sisters? 

[01:44:04] Zaki: I said not really. Because the only things that they have to respect the rules. The rules is mean the how they dress up. If they dress up as uh, rule they don't bother, maybe. And but most the people they left. During the time that I left Iran, the time that the year '70 I said maybe still remaining in Iran...maybe 80, 90 000 people. Jewish people. [01:44:44] But after the revolution now, all together there are maybe around 25 000. So most of them left. 

[01:44:59] Henry: And in Montreal did your children go to Jewish school? 

[01:45:03] Zaki: Yes, yes. 

[01:45:04] Henry: Where did they go to school?

[01:45:05] Zaki: They went to Hebrew Academy.

[01:45:07] Henry: And uh, you're a member of a synagogue here?

[01:45:14] Zaki: Yes, sure I am a member of Jewish community centre synagogue on the Westbury. They have a Sephardic synagogue there and uh, I am in charge there actually of it. And uh, it's, most of them they are Moroccan uh, in the '80's we had a big Jewish community here. [01:45:45] They came but after one, two, three years that they stayed here and they, it's too difficult. First of all winter, the weather, and second of all language barrier. So most them they left to California or New York. Here is still remain maybe 50, 60 families maybe but they are not local same. [01:46:16] So that's why in the '90's we, we thought to build a synagogue for Iranian. So we know that they have a project in the, my Jewish community centre to build a synagogue, permanent one, so we had uh, some, some money and we, we paid and we participate to building it and now we have a plaque that in entrance that is written that this synagogue was building with contribution of Iranian Jewish people in Montreal in Quebec so...

[01:47:02] Henry: Do you, do your children speak Farsi? 

[01:47:06] Zaki: They understand Farsi. Some, few words they could talk but uh, not fluently no. 

[01:47:14] Henry: And do you visit Israel at all? 

[01:47:17] Zaki: Yes I visit almost every year or two. Because my parents there, my other sister is there and uh, I go often that I could. 

[01:47:35] Henry: So how do you uh see yourself? What's your identity? 

[01:47:42] Zaki: Uh, I am uh tradition. We grow up our, my kids traditional and uh that it's remain, you know from generation to generation. That why I sent them to Jewish school and also uh, there are four, all four are not the same, it's different. But most they keep the tradition, kosher uh, Shabbat and uh...

[01:48:19] Henry: Do you see your identity ethnically at all? 

[01:48:24] Zaki: Here? No. That's very strange that you asking this question because I, I am very integrated to the community, to the community and society here and uh, I leaned French here and I talk almost their accent. And I was involved in every aspect of uh, life, Quebec life. I, the first I was involved in union in the Hydro Québec engineers union. [01:49:10] I was vice-president and after treasury. Ten years I was not full time but, you know, it taking care of engineers. After that I get involved in Order of engineers, that's to give permit to engineer to practice. [01:49:30] And after five or six years I was elected as a president of the Order of engineers three times. 2006, 2009, every year is election. And uh, after that I got involved in Engineers Canada. Canada Council of Engineers. This is all Canadian, Canadian engineers. And uh, in the board. And in 2011 I was elected president of Engineers Canada. [01:50:13] And still I am on the board so uh, I was involved in the Conseil inter-professionnel of Québec, this mean the umbrella of 46 orders and I was in executive committee and uh, you know, I, they don't see me as a stranger or someone. [01:50:41] You know I am a keeping my tradition, I, they know that I am Jewish, I don't hide it and anytimes I going to travel for them uh, I ask for kosher meals. And uh, kosher always is ordered and uh...

[01:51:08] Henry: When does Iran mean to you now? 

[01:51:10] Zaki: Really, nothing. Really just the only thing nostalgia of seeing because I hear that change a lot. They houses that I was living in Iran, in Tehran, not, I mean in Isfahan, it doesn’t exist anymore. They make it boulevard or street or whatever. And I really have a memory and I hope I could go one day just to see what is uh...it's you know, it's, I don't think it's like the image that they showing us here that is....[01:51:47] No it's, until now they was tolerant to the Jewish people and uh, but, they are against Zionism but they are not against uh, Jewish people. So I, that's also is depending which part of city you are in, you understand? [01:52:15] Still there is some anti-Semite part of depending to area you live but you, if you are living educated area, or whatever, no it's peaceful. As long as you don't get involved in politics, as long as you respecting the rules they don't, they do nothing, you know, against whatever. 

[01:52:41] Henry: Where do you consider home? What is home for you? 

[01:52:44] Zaki: Home, here because it's 46 years I'm here. So that's uh, here is uh, that I really... I pass my youngest years and family and everything. The only thing bother us that is we don't have family here so this is the problem. My wife, my wife family they are all in California, most of my family they are in Israel and we have few friends in New York. And that's it. 

[01:53:23] Henry: So one last question: Um for people who will listen to this, what message do you want to give them? 

[01:53:34] Zaki: Uh, the message that I, there is always hope. You don't have to give up, you have to, when you going, when people coming from another country to another one they don't have to be isolated. They have to get involved. And you know, you don't have to be scared to talk. [01:53:58] You have to, you know, there is always good and there is bad but you get involved and you make your living and you try to integrate without uh, putting away your traditions because if it's that, our, our roots it's here two, three thousand years that the Jewish people remain and we want to remain but how is going to remain is to keep it. [01:54:40] Uh when I say integration is not uh, absorbed by other people, you know, it's to be in society and you know, you do, you respect others and I'm sure the other respect you. So you don't have to impose your rule to others. This is very important. And peacefully everybody could live, this is uh...[01:55:05] This is message and this is my uh...what you call? My message to the people. That's how I'm am grow up and with all difficulty that I gone through so uh, I know what is it to be part of minority and uh, you have to make it understand to the people. Believe in peace. that's it. 

[01:55:41] Henry: Sephardi Voices thanks you very much for taking the time. 

[01:55:44] Zaki: Thank you, thank you. I think you very much, thank you. Was shortened because a lot long tales. That's...what's that?