Yvette Mashaal

Cleaned by: Julia Pappo
Transcribed by: Rev

Interview date: January 23rd, 2016

Interviewer: Henry Green

Location: Fort Lauderdale

Total time: 1:25:18

Yvette Maschaal: Born on May 6th, 1939 in Baghdad, Iraq. Arrived in Paris in 1952. Arrived in England in 1952. Arrived in Montreal in 1952. 

Henry Green (00:00:00):

Okay. What is your full name?

Yvette Mashaal (00:00:07):

Yvette Mashaal.

Henry Green (00:00:08):

And what was your name at birth?

Yvette Mashaal (00:00:11):

Yvette Shaheen.

Henry Green (00:00:13):

And when were you born?

Yvette Mashaal (00:00:15):

Uh, May 6th, 1939.

Henry Green (00:00:19):

And where were you born

Yvette Mashaal (00:00:20):

In Baghdad, Iraq.

Henry Green (00:00:23):

So, first, let me just say-

Speaker 3 (00:00:25):

Hi.

Henry Green (00:00:27):

First, let me just say how, uh, grateful we are, uh, that you have, um, uh, accepted to be interviewed by Sephardi Voices.

Yvette Mashaal (00:00:37):

My pleasure. Thank you. Nice meeting you.

Henry Green (00:00:41):

So let me open with saying, uh, the following. Can you tell me something about your family's background?

Yvette Mashaal (00:00:49):

You mean my childhood?

Henry Green (00:00:51):

Anything, uh, that you want.

Yvette Mashaal (00:00:53):

Well, I was born in Iraq, as I say, Baghdad. Um, I was the first grandchild of my, the two families, on my mother's side and my father's side. Many uncles and, uh, aunts all around me, my four grandparents. My mother and father are first cousins. Uh, my two grandmothers are sisters and, um, one sister lived in Nasiriyah, that's my father's mom. And when he came to, to Baghdad, he fell in love with my mom and they got married. And, um, it was a, it was a fun life. It was a good life. As I remember, my childhood was beautiful.

Yvette Mashaal (00:01:46):

Because, um, we went to school, we went to the clubs. I had friends, uh, you know, the holidays, they were beautiful. And, um, so like 1952 was an end. No, actually, it started being bad in 1950, I would say, when I felt it. People were leaving and, uh, things like that.

Henry Green (00:02:16):

So, um, let's just talk about your grandparents then.

Yvette Mashaal (00:02:18):

Okay.

Henry Green (00:02:18):

Your, your mother's father, your grandfather, maternal grandfather, uh, what was his name?

Yvette Mashaal (00:02:28):

Uh, his name was Yehuda Cohen. He was a very, very observant man. Um, he, well, it's a long history because he was married before and he had two children and his wife passed away. Then my, his wife, my grandmother was married also before and she had three children and her husband passed away. So they got them together. So when started, they had five between them. And then, uh, between them, they had five girls and two boys. So it was a lovely home. Uh, I never know who was the stepbrother or the stepsister because they were all equal. They loved, both sides, loved each other very much.

Yvette Mashaal (00:03:22):

And, um, my grandmother brought them up because they were pretty young in a way and, uh, the other way around. And, uh, it was a very happy home. And he loved music, he loved the Arabic [Chalhe 00:03:34]. It's called, uh, the Arabic classical music. Uh, there was always music, there were always people. It was an open house. It was-

Henry Green (00:03:45):

And what city was this in?

Yvette Mashaal (00:03:46):

In Baghdad.

Henry Green (00:03:47):

In Baghdad.

Yvette Mashaal (00:03:48):

In Baghdad. I could still visualize the house.

Henry Green (00:03:50):

Wha- what did it look like?

Yvette Mashaal (00:03:52):

Uh, it was, uh, it was a two story house with an attic on the side, gardens. You come in, it's, uh, there is a room to the left that was like kind of the den where everybody was sewing and doing during the day, doing stuff. And then you go into the living room kind of thing. And the kitchen, you take two steps down. The kitchen was never a good part of the house in those years. It was always...

Henry Green (00:04:20):

Shh.

Yvette Mashaal (00:04:20):

I'm sorry. You were worried about the dog, you should have worried (laughs) about my husband. Okay.

Henry Green (00:04:40):

You were saying the took two steps down.

Yvette Mashaal (00:04:43):

You take two steps down and it was, it would be concrete floor. And, uh, it's not like kitchens as we know today, it was like, um, not a nice place to be in. Like as a kid, they would always tell me, "Don't go to the kitchen, don't go to the kitchen." And I'd always be in the kitchen. But, uh-

Henry Green (00:05:03):

And what neighbourhood in, uh, Iraq was it, in Baghdad? Do you remember the neighbourhood?

Yvette Mashaal (00:05:07):

I think it was called, uh, Sha-, um, Battawin, I think, Battawin, I'm not 100% sure.

Henry Green (00:05:15):

And was it on the, uh, river?

Yvette Mashaal (00:05:16):

No, it was in [Sharawazi 00:05:18], not Sharawazi. No, I think Sharawazi, there was a movie across. If, if I'm saying the right names, I could be not, I don't know.

Henry Green (00:05:28):

And the, your, your, the, uh, granddad family, um, were they from Baghdad for many years?

Yvette Mashaal (00:05:34):

Yeah, yeah, no, no, they were, he was from Baghdad for many years.

Henry Green (00:05:39):

And, um, your, um, your grandmother, his wife, uh, there [crosstalk 00:05:46]-

Yvette Mashaal (00:05:46):

Defaha.

Henry Green (00:05:47):

... her name, her name was Defaha. Maiden name?

Yvette Mashaal (00:05:48):

Uh, Sail.

Henry Green (00:05:48):

Sail.

Yvette Mashaal (00:05:51):

And, and was she also from Baghdad?

Henry Green (00:05:53):

I don't know their origin exactly because she was married and she was in the Al-Hamra. I don't know. No, not Al-Hamra. I dunno. Another little town, which I don't remember the name when, when she had her first husband. And they were bringing him to Baghdad because he got sick, he got fever. That's a story I know, and he died on the way or when he just arrived to Baghdad. And then her mom was in Baghdad, so she stayed. So I don't know if she originates from Baghdad and she got married to this other city, or if they were not in Baghdad originally. But he, her mother was a shopkeeper in, in Iraq, Baghdad. She was a businesswoman, her mom.

Yvette Mashaal (00:06:34):

And did she dress, um, modern or traditional or [crosstalk 00:06:39]-

Henry Green (00:06:39):

No, she was a modern woman. She was a beautiful, beautiful woman, very nice woman. And she came to Montreal a- and she went to Israel and she came to Montreal. And, um, she was extremely smart, beautiful, uh, personality. And she was pretty. She, she dressed like normal, I think. She didn't wear any abaya or anything like that. No.

Yvette Mashaal (00:07:03):

And your, um, your mother's parents, um, that was your father's parents?

Henry Green (00:07:09):

No, these were my mother's parents.

Yvette Mashaal (00:07:11):

[crosstalk 00:07:11] your father's parents, so your-

Henry Green (00:07:11):

You said maternal. (laughs) My, uh, father's parents, my, the mom is her, her sister, her older sister and they lived in Nasiriyah. And, um, my grandfather is, uh, actually, his name is Monashi Levi. But his father used to work in the, in the farms, in the, on the land. And his name was, uh, Shua, so Shua Levi, and, uh, they nicknamed him Saeed, Saeed Shaheen. So it became Shaheen, and that's how the family name happened to be Shaheen. But, uh, but we are Levi really, like my father is Levi.

Yvette Mashaal (00:07:53):

So that means you're, um, from the tribe of Levi?

Henry Green (00:07:57):

From the tribe of Levi, yeah. And Shaheen was just, uh, because it's more, it's a more of a Christian name or a Muslim name, Shaheen. So they just called him Shaheen.

Yvette Mashaal (00:08:07):

And, um, how was it that the two sisters married, um, um, the same, um... You, you, you were saying there, there were two sisters that, that married within the family.

Henry Green (00:08:24):

No, no, they're not within the family. The, my grandmother, maternal side, married and she was in this other city. I don't remember the name of the city. And my other grandmother was in Nasiriyah. I guess they got married and they went there. But, originally, they're, um, from Baghdad or not, I don't remember. But their mother was in Baghdad, had a shop, so.

Yvette Mashaal (00:08:47):

And your, your father, your father was, uh, his name and when was he born?

Henry Green (00:08:54):

Naji, he wa-, he was born, um, maybe '10, 1910, I would say. It's around there. He was the eldest of his family. There were seven boys, my u-, like I have seven uncles and he's the eldest. And he was, um, he knew English, I don't know where he studied it or whatever. And at that time it was a big thing. And he came to Baghdad to get a job or find a job. And the way I heard that he met mommy, of course, he goes to his aunt's house and he met mommy. She was 16 and they fell in love, or he loved her or whatever. And, um, my grandfather didn't want them to get married because she was very beautiful, my mom, and he wanted to get a good, good catch for her with money or whatever.

Henry Green (00:09:50):

And he, this guy was like just a starter. And, um, but they were like, the way I know it, they wrote letters to each other and her brother would chaperone them and they would be together. And at the end they married. And I grew up really knowing that my parents loved each other very much. I think, as a child, it's, uh, it's a good thing to know.

Yvette Mashaal (00:10:18):

Your father's name?

Henry Green (00:10:20):

Naji, and your mother, your mother's name?

Yvette Mashaal (00:10:23):

Vivielete.

Henry Green (00:10:23):

And her maiden name?

Yvette Mashaal (00:10:26):

Cohen.

Henry Green (00:10:26):

Cohen. And do you know the year they were married?

Yvette Mashaal (00:10:33):

I'm not sure. Um, well, she was 16, 17 when she got married. So she was born in '80- [inaudible 00:10:44], maybe '85, it was in 1985 I think was their, uh, their, uh, 50th wedding anniversary. Could that be possible?

Henry Green (00:10:53):

Mm-hmm (affirmative). And so you're, you're-

Yvette Mashaal (00:10:57):

In '8-, in '85, in 85. I think it was '85 or '84 we celebrated their 50th, and then he died in '87. So that's why. He died two years after or something like that after.

Henry Green (00:11:11):

So somewhere around maybe, uh, uh, maybe they were married around the end of the war or '45 or '35? Well, before the war or after the war?

Yvette Mashaal (00:11:22):

No. Well, I was born '39 and they were married, uh, '35.

Henry Green (00:11:26):

So 1935.

Yvette Mashaal (00:11:27):

She didn't have me right away, so

Henry Green (00:11:28):

'35. Right, it's going to be '35. And they were cousins?

Yvette Mashaal (00:11:32):

They were first cousins, yeah, because the mothers are sisters.

Henry Green (00:11:35):

And was that, uh, in those days, people married first cousins?

Yvette Mashaal (00:11:39):

It was very common. Most of the Iraqi community they're cousins within cousins within cousins. I mean, it was very normal. Here when we came to Canada, you know, you don't do that or whatever, but...

Henry Green (00:11:52):

And what did your father do for, uh, for, uh, his occupation?

Yvette Mashaal (00:11:57):

He was import-export, and he had a partner in Iraq, a Christian partner. And, um, he always had connections with England. Uh, I don't know what he was importing or exporting from England.

Henry Green (00:12:14):

So tell me something about growing up then? What, uh, where did you live? What neighbourhood and what was your house like?

Yvette Mashaal (00:12:21):

Well, when I, I mean, my first memory is in this house that, uh, on the left was one aunt, the step-aunt, the, the one from my grandfather's Elissa, the one from my grandfather's first marriage. And on the other side was my uncle from the first marriage also, my step uncle, if you want to know. So we were always going into each other's homes and, uh, and they had the children, so we were, I grew up with my cousin, Ava. She was, we were the same age, four months apart. And then I remember growing up with my uncles because, one by one, they came from Nasiriyah, whether to go to school or university. So I grew up all the time with two or three uncles of my father that they lived with us.

Henry Green (00:13:16):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Yvette Mashaal (00:13:18):

And, um, I'm very close, extremely close, to my uncle. I used to be... now no- nobody's alive. Uh, there, I would always be around them and they would always take care of me, and my aunt or whatever. And then my sister came four years later. And I don't know exactly the mechanics of the, um, of the situation, but from that house then we moved... And the house was beautiful. It was like a European kind of house and you slept on the roof in the summer. And, uh, I knew the neighbourhood and I remember, uh, Purim, uh, music would play. And then carriages would come in the street and the carriage would stop at our house, and it would be this huge round tray covered with gold leaf and this.

Yvette Mashaal (00:14:14):

And her mother would send her sweets like baklava and malfouf and stuff like that. So I remember little things like that. And, uh, then, uh, we mo-, they moved to another huge house with big rounds because my grandparents moved from Nasiriyah with all the other uncles. So we would live together there with my grandparent, with one of my uncles who was already, um, buried. And I had, they had kids. And so it was like an extended house with many servants many health and many this and many that. So I always lived in a, in a group. I need a Kleenex. I'm sorry.

Henry Green (00:14:59):

Can we just... It's okay. So you were living in this big house, you were saying, with all this family. So can you tell me some stories about you and your grandparents, special stories?

Yvette Mashaal (00:15:13):

Oh, I loved my grandparents, my grandfather in particular. I remember he would take me every week on Friday. And, uh, I was his favourite, for whatever reason. I knew, and I knew it. I mean, he didn't say it, but I just knew it. He would take me and, uh, we would go to the sulk and he would buy all kinds of candies, all kinds of whatever, halku, and this and this and that. They were, the, the sweets were very crude. And, uh, we would come home and he would make bags. He would give me, you know, a bag for the week of my candies and he would give the other children also, he always gave me more.

Yvette Mashaal (00:15:54):

And, um, I was always very close to him. I just loved him. He was, he was my favourite. He was like wonderful. My grandmother, Regina, on the other hand, she would, I think she was like a matriarch or something. She was very tough, observant as a... because she was always telling them not to do this and not to do that. I mean, I heard it in the back- background. She would always tell stories. You could sit in front of her and she would tell you stories and stories and stories. And I'd always follow her to the kitchen and see what she was doing. And, actually, today on like most of my cooking, it's memory of what they were doing in the kitchen. The kind of thing I-

Henry Green (00:16:36):

What did she teach you to cook?

Yvette Mashaal (00:16:37):

She didn't, she didn't teach me, in particular, but I watched her, like and I would be with her, like how they cut the chicken and mommy would always scream at me, "You're making your dress dirty. Come out." Whatever, but I was stuck and like they'd make, um, the cookies [Arabic 00:16:55], they call it, for the week. So that was a big production and they would make the dough. I would watch them. And then they would open in the middle of the house, um, low tables, like Japanese tables. And everybody's squatting on the floor sitting. And it goes it was like an assembly line, all the aunts, all every-, everybody participates.

Yvette Mashaal (00:17:17):

And they go from one to the other, and this one does the round. This one opens it up, this one fills it, or whatever. And they get this woman that she came once a week and there was no oven. So in the [tunnel 00:17:29], and she would wear gloves, I remember, and material in her hand and she would put them one by one on the wall and then take them out. So she would be the baker. And, uh, that was a beautiful day for me. I mean, as a kid, I remember those things. It was a lot of fun. So I remember the movements, how, what they did, or not necessarily the ingredients.

Henry Green (00:17:54):

The smell?

Yvette Mashaal (00:17:55):

The smell, and then, um, when Passover came, they would bring rice and rice and rice and we would sit and they would all like, like cle- clean it. So to make it kosher for Passover. The same thing for the flour, for the grain. And then they took it to be, um, ground, to make it to, into flour and to make it into matzoh, the special matzoh the Iraqi way. So I remember a lot of those things, like the jams, how they used to make the jams and put them on the roof of the house. Because they never used fire. It was in big, uh, round containers, bronze, I guess, or whatever, it was metal. And, um, it would be on the roof with the sun and they would, uh, uh, close it with tool, so the flies don't come in.

Yvette Mashaal (00:18:48):

And that would stay like, uh, I don't know how many days or whatever until it thickens. So that's how they made their jam and their tomato paste and stuff. And that's how I make my jam now. I do it on the stove a little bit, and then it goes on the windows still in the sun, and it is delicious. So like things like that.

Henry Green (00:19:09):

Um, these are your father's parents or your-

Yvette Mashaal (00:19:12):

These are my father's parents. And I was always at my... because it wasn't far to go to my other grandparents' house. So there was a lot of fun also. They had more music. He, my grandfather, loved the music and he had a beautiful voice. And Shabbat came or Saturday, the musicians would come in and they were his friends and they would just sit and play music and sing. So I, I grew up with music also with, I love Arabic music because I grew up with it, I guess.

Henry Green (00:19:43):

And did your grandfather play any instrument or?

Yvette Mashaal (00:19:47):

I don't remember him playing instrument. His son, my uncle, Ezra is still alive and he plays. He has a beautiful voice and he plays the oud. Uh, but it was I think Ezra would come, become a musician or something, but it was looked down upon if you're a musician. Like you're, you're not, you're supposed to be, so it wasn't acceptable.

Henry Green (00:20:13):

Did, did, um, were your, was your, did your father go to school? Did he, uh, you know-

Yvette Mashaal (00:20:19):

I don't know, I'm sure he went to school in Nasiriyah and not in Baghdad, but he knew English fluently and he wrote it fluently. So I don't know where he studied it exactly. I'm sure he studied English or something, maybe high school level. He, he didn't go to university. I have one uncle who, from my father's side, he became a doctor and another uncle from my mother's side who was a doctor. Because it was a quota to go into university, they couldn't. Another uncle from my father's side went to Istanbul to become an engineer. And, uh, the others were just businessmen, they couldn't get in. They couldn't get to university or the quota wasn't there for them or whatever.

Henry Green (00:21:03):

What language did you speak in the house?

Yvette Mashaal (00:21:06):

Arabic.

Henry Green (00:21:06):

Judaeo-Arabic?

Yvette Mashaal (00:21:08):

Yeah, Judaeo-Arabic was a lot more.

Henry Green (00:21:08):

And when you went out on the street, was it exactly the same or did the dialects change at all or?

Yvette Mashaal (00:21:16):

Well, I was sheltered. I was a little girl and I had blonde hair at the time and I had long hair, so I was never alone in the street by myself, never, never. My hair was always braided and I was always walking with somebody. Because I remember like you walk and, um, Muslim boys would pinch you or would say something. I mean, white skinned and light eyes, it was very desirable there. So, so like I remember once I had my hair open and combed and I was outside, I don't know, just outside the door, and they called me, "Come in, come in." So we were always in a group or sheltered. I never walked in the street like kids walk here.

Henry Green (00:22:02):

And the, um, your parents spoke, um, any other languages? You said your father spoke English.

Yvette Mashaal (00:22:09):

No, he wrote it and he, he knew it. He, he could speak it, but I, I never heard it. I mean, after we left, I know he was doing-

Henry Green (00:22:16):

But not in, not in the house?

Yvette Mashaal (00:22:17):

No, no, no, it was English.

Henry Green (00:22:19):

And French?

Yvette Mashaal (00:22:19):

It wasn't spoken. Everybody knew French because we were, they were all in their Alliance. I mean, my aunties went to the Alliance, from my mother's side. And, uh-

Henry Green (00:22:30):

And what school did you go to?

Yvette Mashaal (00:22:31):

Alliance.

Henry Green (00:22:32):

So you, you could speak French, read French?

Yvette Mashaal (00:22:36):

I could read French to grade six. I didn't finish the sixth grade in Baghdad. I could read French, I was very good in French, but I never spoke it, per se, but I understood it.

Henry Green (00:22:48):

But people in the house didn't speak French?

Yvette Mashaal (00:22:50):

No, no, no, no, no, not like Egypt.

Henry Green (00:22:51):

Not like Egypt.

Yvette Mashaal (00:22:54):

No, no, no, no, no, it was only Judaeo-Arabic.

Henry Green (00:22:56):

And the, the, your help in the house, were they, uh, Jewish or Muslim or Christian? What do you remember?

Yvette Mashaal (00:23:05):

I think, I'm not sure, don't quote me on that, but I think they were Kurdish Jews. I think that's what it was because they would always call somebody a Muslim from the street to light the Shabbat. I remember, I remember that they're calling to light something rather. So I guess if they were Jewish, they didn't do it. That's, I mean, my assumption.

Henry Green (00:23:27):

Did you, um, did your parents have a car?

Yvette Mashaal (00:23:30):

Not that I remember, maybe, I'm not, I'm not sure.

Henry Green (00:23:34):

Did you drive in cars? Do you remember that?

Yvette Mashaal (00:23:36):

No, I remember bicycling. I learned to bicycle, I learned to swim in Baghdad, but I was sheltered as I say, so.

Henry Green (00:23:44):

The, the, um-

Yvette Mashaal (00:23:47):

I mean, I was always in a car, but I don't know who it belonged to.

Henry Green (00:23:49):

To (laughs).

Yvette Mashaal (00:23:49):

I don't.

Henry Green (00:23:52):

The, the, the, um, uh, in your, your garden that you had, were there any fruit trees? Were there... do you remember?

Yvette Mashaal (00:24:00):

There were animals.

Henry Green (00:24:01):

There were animals.

Yvette Mashaal (00:24:02):

Um, had the pair of ducks, had dogs. My uncle, um, my, uh, two of my uncles were having, were, had doves. You know, birds, they fly and come back, um, little chickens. They had like a, on the side, a little something, I dunno, for the animals. I grew up loving animals so I was something. And then they would bring the lamb and you get attached to this lamb and he's so beautiful. And then comes Rosh Hashanah. I mean, that was so cruel as a kid. And the Shahad would come to the house and they would kill the lamb in front of, as a kid.

Yvette Mashaal (00:24:46):

And I saw this lamb that I fell in love with and I'm feeding and whatever, and they would kill it for Rosh Hashanah. It's as a sacrifice or whatever it is. And I would refuse to eat and you have to eat, you, you know. But these are memories that, uh, I thought they were cruel (laughs).

Henry Green (00:25:03):

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Did, did, um, what about, uh, your room? What did your room look like, your bedroom?

Yvette Mashaal (00:25:12):

Well, I remember sleeping, um, with a maid, with a few of us in the room. And then I remember, I think I, I was never had a room by myself. I don't believe, I don't remember. But, uh, I think we're always sleeping together. But I had a cupboard with a key that I asked, "Mommy, please could I have something of, for me?" And she gave me this cupboard from her, uh, toilet with a key, and that was my cupboard. And I would always put, set it up and design it and look it up and play. You know, do placement of stuff in it like and look at it. That was mine.

Henry Green (00:25:55):

Was there anything special in it?

Yvette Mashaal (00:25:58):

No, it was things like they would give me an empty lipstick or I pick up something and I would put the napkin and I would set it up and whatever. Just it felt good to see, it was my property because the house, everything belonged to, I don't know what (laughing).

Henry Green (00:26:15):

And you, uh, you said you were the, um, um, you were the eldest, um, um, did you have brothers or sisters?

Yvette Mashaal (00:26:23):

Yes, I have three brothers and a younger sister.

Henry Green (00:26:26):

And what are their names and what [crosstalk 00:26:28]-

Yvette Mashaal (00:26:28):

Uh, my sister is Claudette, she's four years younger than me. And then I had Jimmy and then Eddie and then David. David was seven months old when we left, uh, Iraq because, uh, I mean, mom, mommy was nursing him. And when we left in '52.

Henry Green (00:26:49):

And, um, let me just go back to the house again. So you, you mentioned Rosh Hashanah, um, uh, do you, do you, do you remember, uh... and you mentioned Purim. What about Passover? What was Passover like? Do you remember that?

Yvette Mashaal (00:27:04):

Well, yeah, Passover, we would, uh, we would, um, be reading the Haggadah, that was very special. And I remember I would be tired and wanting to go to sleep or going to sleep. And I would continue reading the Haggadah word for word till very, very late at night. I remember a lot of the holidays there. This was Passover and, uh, they change all the dishes, e- everything looked, the house looked completely different. There would be these white embroidery sheets or tablecloth or whatever it is all over the house. Like the, the look of the house would change over the holidays. For Sukkot, we had a beautiful Sukkot with the fruit hanging and my grandfather who was very observant, he slept in it, he lived in it. I would go visit him, whatever.

Yvette Mashaal (00:27:57):

Uh, for Purim, we would be given money and we played cards. All the kids played cards and it was Dosa. You either put a stack of cards and you put your money on it and who gets the highest? I don't know, you double your money, you don't double your money, whatever. And I remember going back to school and then first thing we did in school, me and my friends, would say, who made what, who won and who lost? Uh, it was a big thing at Purim. That was, uh, money making. And what else, what other holiday? Oh, there was a holiday, um, when the fruits come in, we don't sell...

Henry Green (00:28:41):

Tu BiShvat.

Yvette Mashaal (00:28:42):

Tu BiShvatto, we'd have a huge table with all kinds of little stuff in it. And we do the [bahat 00:28:50] for it. And then my grandfather in the bags, he would give everybody his share of, and that was that. That was a very big holiday. And, uh, Purim, we had special cookies, special baklava, special things. And, um, oh, and I remember, um, there was another holiday for the dead. You, you read the whole night for the dead.

Henry Green (00:29:16):

Oh, um, Tisha B'av.

Yvette Mashaal (00:29:18):

Okay, I don't know it. I would always go with my grandparents, one or two or the other, I was taken there. And I would go to these houses that are holding it and there would be a lot of people praying and talking and having coffee and tea, and what have you. And then there- there's a lot of candles being lit. I mean, I didn't understand at the time why the candles were being lit, but as a kid, we would go and take the candle and we make balls with it, and who got the biggest ball? So that was like a night that I stayed up and we made balls, so (laughing).

Henry Green (00:29:54):

Your, um, you said you went to Alliance, uh, which was a French school.

Yvette Mashaal (00:29:59):

Right.

Henry Green (00:29:59):

Um, did you, um, um, also you took classes in French and in Arabic?

Yvette Mashaal (00:30:06):

And they showed, they taught us a little bit of Hebrew, definitely Arabic, and French.

Henry Green (00:30:15):

And, and-

Yvette Mashaal (00:30:15):

No, E- English came in, uh, at the end, like I had left already before English was introduced.

Henry Green (00:30:21):

And your Hebrew was more in terms of, uh-

Yvette Mashaal (00:30:26):

Hebrew was very, very minute. I know the letters still today. I know th- the alphabet of the Hebrew, uh, but I got, I had a teacher come into the house to teach me Hebrew. Uh, he would teach me, uh, Passover songs, Ma Nishtana and all those things. But I never knew any meaning of any word. It was all by heart, which was crazy, which was silly. Even in school, that's the way it was, you're reading, you're reading what? I don't know what I'm reading, I'm just reading the alphabet.

Yvette Mashaal (00:30:55):

So the Hebrew, I think, teaching was very, very poor as, as far as, you know, I, I could read it, but I never followed it up to tell you the truth. I can go to synagogue now, follow what they're saying, but I have to follow it with my finger. And if they go a little bit fast, I get lost. But I could, uh-

Henry Green (00:31:13):

In your, in your school, um, it was a, uh, co-ed school or was it-

Yvette Mashaal (00:31:18):

No, the Alliance was all girl. Uh, we would go in the morning. The bus would drive us in the main street, uh, to a point. And then we would be a lot of girls walking in a very narrow streets, like Toledo in Spain, maybe narrower. A very narrow streets to get to the school. And, um, the school, there would be a security guard there, uh, Haji, they called him. He was a big monstrous man. Anyway, and we would go in and the door was closed. Like he, he was always, we, you are in that school. And it was in the morning. The first thing we did was, um, when the bell rings, you line up, you line up in classes and the teacher would take you to the class.

Yvette Mashaal (00:32:06):

But before you do that, uh, they bring the Iraqi flag down, and a girl is chosen to, when they sing the, uh, the Anthem, and they bring the flag down and there was a girl chosen, uh, to stand by the flag. So all the kids are downstairs and the... it's like a Spanish thing, and the flag is on the second floor where all the classrooms are and you see the girl with the flag. And, uh, when the flag is lowered or whatever, then we would, everybody would go to their class with the teacher.

Henry Green (00:32:44):

And, um, do you remember any of your friends from that period at all?

Yvette Mashaal (00:32:50):

Yeah, I remember a few. I, I mean, I know them by first name. Some I met along the way, a lot of them went to Israel. I don't remember their family names or anything, but I've met few.

Henry Green (00:33:04):

Do you remember what you would do? So would you do anything socially with them?

Yvette Mashaal (00:33:06):

Now?

Henry Green (00:33:07):

No, then, I mean, outside the school?

Yvette Mashaal (00:33:08):

Then, yeah, uh, outside of school we always played, we went to each other's homes, we went to the club.

Henry Green (00:33:14):

What club?

Yvette Mashaal (00:33:15):

Um, uh, [inaudible 00:33:17], I think, [inaudible 00:33:19] club, we would, my parents were, were, um, members there. So we would go there. The kids would play and, uh, then at a certain hour, all the kids were driven home to their different homes. The club would take us home, or we would... It was always in the street, but we were chaperoned on the sidewalk. Would play two key with, uh, I dunno, jumping, whatever.

Henry Green (00:33:46):

Uh, the area you lived in was a Jewish neighbourhood?

Yvette Mashaal (00:33:47):

It was a Jewish nei-... I think mostly they were Jewish neighbourhood, yeah.

Henry Green (00:33:50):

And did you have contact at all with non-Jews?

Yvette Mashaal (00:33:54):

I saw them, but I didn't have contact. But I knew like my parents had friends non-Jews. Uh, his partner was non-Jewish. I saw them, I knew them, they came to the house.

Henry Green (00:34:05):

And would they eat at the house with you or?

Yvette Mashaal (00:34:09):

That I don't remember. I really don't remember.

Henry Green (00:34:11):

So did your, did, um, from, uh, Passover, for example, when you had the Seder, um, your, because you had so many cousins and people, it would be a large Seder?

Yvette Mashaal (00:34:22):

Very large Seder, yeah.

Henry Green (00:34:23):

And were o- other people invited, outsiders at all or non-Jews, do you remember that?

Yvette Mashaal (00:34:28):

I wasn't aware of that.

Henry Green (00:34:29):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Yvette Mashaal (00:34:29):

I, I remember there were always people, cousins, not cousins, whatever.

Henry Green (00:34:37):

Did, did, um, did your parents or, or your grandparents play any role in community life at all? Were they, uh, active in synagogue or, um, leaders of the, um-

Yvette Mashaal (00:34:52):

I don't know. I don't think, I, I don't know. My mom definitely not, and I don't remember my father. No, I don't know.

Henry Green (00:34:57):

Do you remember any kinds of, um, special events like henna parties or things like that?

Yvette Mashaal (00:35:03):

Oh, yeah. That, uh, they would have, um, the most memorable events were when they would have picnics on the river, on the Tigris river. We would go with boats and you'd go to the island and, uh, they'd have like benches. And they would set up a picnic and musicians would come, the Chalhe. Uh, and the moon I could see it. It was like you opened up a light there, it wasn't dark at all. And then they would have the fish that would like you, you put sticks and you put the fish like this on the fire in the middle. And they were doing the fish there, and I don't know, salads or whatever. I mean, I don't remember who brought water and how it was done. But that was very common and was very beautiful. That was one nice thing. And the honeys were always a big thing.

Yvette Mashaal (00:35:57):

Uh, the honeys that I remember were at the roof of the house, and again, the musicians and the honey and, uh, and everybody dressed up and everybody this. I remember going with my grandmother to weddings at the synagogue, not necessarily you're invited because when you had it at the synagogue, everybody could go. So, uh, my grandmother from my mother, from my father's side, she would always take me. She would wear the abaya. And so she can't recognize her. I don't know, she'd cover herself up, and she would see if the bride is pretty so-and-so is getting married or whatever. But, I mean, it didn't make any difference to me.

Yvette Mashaal (00:36:38):

And then I remember when family members got married in the synagogue, I was near the hopa as a kid there. And I remember people, they come and they congratulate. And, uh, so as they're coming and they congratulate, my grandmother would tell them, "Come to our house." The invitations were not sent out. Uh, at the synagogue, you invited the people you wanted them to come. I mean, besides the family, I guess. So then that I noticed very much somebody is just saying, "Thank you, thank you." And the other one whispering, "Come over, come over."

Yvette Mashaal (00:37:16):

And then the cook would come, the caterers, I guess, and I remember how they did the food. It was beautiful. I mean, it's, it was the same recipe, the same kind of food all the time for weddings. And, uh, it will be a big thing two days before. Everybody's working, everybody's doing... Like you, you know, you, as a kid, you remember the, I remember the chaos and then the wedding, and it would be beautiful and this and that.

Henry Green (00:37:44):

And would, um, as, uh, the bride and various people would have henna put on them, would you as a child have henna put on you too?

Yvette Mashaal (00:37:53):

No, it was just on the bride. This is when we came here, the Moroccans, I, I don't remember ever had henna. It was strictly for the bride and the groom, as I remember it, maybe I'm wrong.

Henry Green (00:38:06):

Um, did, did your, your father, um, you said was import, export, is that what... So what would his typical day be? He'd get up and wh-, and then he'd go to work, he'd-

Yvette Mashaal (00:38:17):

Yeah, we would all go to school. We'd go to school, and I guess he would go to the office. Uh, at 12:00 or 1:00, because the sun would be so hot, you'd come home and you cannot go out of the house because nobody went out of the house. Uh, the men also came from work at that time. And that was the main meal of the day. Uh, everybody ate and whatever. And then you went for a siesta to sleep in the nim, like the room that's cooled. Uh, you had two hours or whatever. Then some men went back to work, which I think my father did. Uh, after the siesta, I don't know how many hours.

Yvette Mashaal (00:39:03):

And then you'll come for a late supper, which would be light like yogurt and not cooked meal, the cook, you know, like yogurt and cheese. And, I don't know, whatever, little things like that. And then they would start going out for the evening and after, a-... before the dinner or after the dinner, but that's when the evening would start. So it would start very late, really. The evening entertainment.

Henry Green (00:39:34):

And did your father-

Yvette Mashaal (00:39:34):

That's a typical day. I mean, of course I didn't go out.

Henry Green (00:39:37):

But your father, would he, um, stop in, in the afternoon or in the evening to cafe at all? Do you know?

Yvette Mashaal (00:39:44):

My grandfather did not my father, my grandfather always went to the cafe to play backgammon and have tea. And it was only men that did that. My father, he was more modern. He didn't do that.

Henry Green (00:39:57):

Did your grandfather teach you how to play backgammon?

Yvette Mashaal (00:40:00):

Yeah. I know how, I know how to play backgammon. I grew up with it, [crosstalk 00:40:04] I grew up with cards. (laughs) You play with him, you, you know.

Henry Green (00:40:06):

Is he the one who taught you or your mother or...?

Yvette Mashaal (00:40:07):

I don't know where I picked it. I don't know where I picked it from, but you see it so much and you just pick it up. I don't know. I really don't remember that but...

Henry Green (00:40:18):

Did your mother play cards with friends.

Yvette Mashaal (00:40:20):

They played bridge.

Henry Green (00:40:21):

At home.

Yvette Mashaal (00:40:22):

Uh, somebody came to teach them bridge they, yeah, I think they played bridge, they played pinochle at home, um, and poker.

Henry Green (00:40:34):

Yeah. [inaudible 00:40:35].

Yvette Mashaal (00:40:35):

There's a lot of poker that I saw. Of course I wasn't playing, but...

Henry Green (00:40:41):

(laughs). Did, uh, was there any, uh, Zionism when you were growing up?

Yvette Mashaal (00:40:47):

I was not aware of it. I know one of my uncles, Uncle Jack, from my mother's side, he's a doctor. He was a communist and that's when I... he got married and he had to, um, because somebody told him he would write for the paper or something and somebody came a friend and told him your name is in the blacklist. Uh, you better get out of Iraq. And he was just married few months. So he ran away, he through Iran. And then I remember listening on the radio when they said his name. Yeah, Jacob [Gohan 00:41:29] whoever sees him his hanged till, till he dies or something like that. Like the, the ruling came out for him. And, uh, so that was like a shocker to hear that on the radio.

Yvette Mashaal (00:41:42):

And when they came to the house, the police, the day after he ran away and they looked everywhere in the house, it seemed, I mean, I wasn't there, but everywhere under the mattresses, every nook and cranny in case he was hiding in the house, they didn't find him. His wife they asked her where... she was living, you know, "Where's your husband?" "I don't know. He never came home." And she started crying. And then, uh, they took his younger brother Uncle Ezra. And they took him to the prison instead of Jack, till Jack comes back. And I don't know with Bosch or something after three days, they got him out. So that's the closest that I came to...

Henry Green (00:42:27):

And what happened to your uncle?

Yvette Mashaal (00:42:30):

He's in Ir- He went to Iran and from me, and then his wife followed him six months after or something again, by the black to Iran, and from Iran, they went to Israel. He went there before all the, um, the actual, uh, you know, the 150,000 went he was one of the first. So he was a doctor. He was at Tel HaShomer Hospital and they had given him a little home or something. So he received the family when they came all of them to Israel after that, because he came one after the other.

Henry Green (00:43:04):

Did, um, you said you... So, um, do you have any, um, stories that you heard about the Farhud in [inaudible 00:43:12]?

Yvette Mashaal (00:43:12):

Oh, yeah. A lot of stories. [crosstalk 00:43:14] I mean, I think that was the time that I was born. They were in the house. So were closed in the neighbours help them. They will not hurt my, my actual family. Uh, they were so scared and, uh, this and that, and they tell us little stories and, but, uh, the Muslim friends sort of helped them not to come in or something like that. They, they were not hurt, but they were absolutely very scared.

Henry Green (00:43:41):

Do you have any memories, um, 'cause you said you were born in '39, the war ended in '45. Do you have any memories of, uh, World War II at all or none?

Yvette Mashaal (00:43:52):

None at all no.

Henry Green (00:43:53):

Between '45 and '48 um, the, um, um... There was an underground that was, uh, active.

Yvette Mashaal (00:44:05):

I was not aware of all these things I, after I grew up and after I came to Canada, I realized, or I read about, but as a child, no. I, I was into my own world and we were very sheltered. But then when they were listening to the radio in secret, I was trying to listen and, and I knew everybody was agitated or they, you know, they're hearing this and they're hearing that. Um...

Henry Green (00:44:32):

Do you remember in, uh, 1948 when Israel was founded, do you remember listening to the radio at this point?

Yvette Mashaal (00:44:38):

Yeah, I remember in secret they listening and have Israel now, like in the room, but very whispery in case somebody hear. Yeah, yeah I remember the-

Henry Green (00:44:48):

Do you remember [crosstalk 00:44:49]

Yvette Mashaal (00:44:49):

... the jubilation, but it wasn't...

Henry Green (00:44:57):

But you were, you were... Were you... Did you feel jubilated yourself? Did you have any [crosstalk 00:44:58]?

Yvette Mashaal (00:44:57):

Yeah, because you're always... I mean, as a child always would, next year, we're going to go to Israel. So Israel was always there for us, you know, but then all, everybody, all my aunts and all my uncles, except for my grandfather and grandmother from maternal side, from the, my father's side and two of the uncles, they all went to Israel. They signed up to go and, and my father was afraid to go. So my father and two of his brothers and his mum and dad were still in, uh, in Baghdad, then they went to Israel after that. And my father was afraid because he was getting news they're [inaudible 00:45:41] and I don't know what, and he said, "What am I going to do with five kids at this age? I can't do anything." And this and that. So we went by passport, we left my passport.

Yvette Mashaal (00:45:51):

But I mean, I know the world is coming to an end in a way because everybody's leaving. And, uh, and like I remember we were at somebody's house and I remember the look on everyone's faces because it was just announced on the radio that all the money of all those people who signed up to leave, their money in the banks is all frozen as of today. I remember that I don't remember everybody blanching or, or whatever. I mean, I remember there was a people there was... Everybody's stressed out and this one is leaving and whispering, and this one is doing this and this, but I don't know details about that.

Henry Green (00:46:30):

Mm-hmm (affirmative). But you felt, uh, you could sense things were going on around you?

Yvette Mashaal (00:46:36):

Oh, for sure. It's, it was, I mean, the schools I'm mean... I was in the Alliance, but then they closed all the schools and everybody now it became co-ed in, uh, Frank Iny. So we were all at the Frank Iny School and it was like boys and girls together. We were never with boys like this. And, uh, it was a revelation. So it was like a new life, but also things were changing. And then we had, um, we had, uh, teachers, Muslims who came to Frank Iny to teach Arabic. I remember that. And I remember as a girl, they were flirting with us, so...

Henry Green (00:47:21):

So th- these were male teachers?

Yvette Mashaal (00:47:22):

Male teachers that were flirting with us, yeah.

Henry Green (00:47:25):

And was Sit Simha then, uh, part of the school or not? Do you remember the name Sit Simha?

Yvette Mashaal (00:47:30):

Sit Si- No. Uh, I had, uh... No, I... 'cause maybe Sit Simha is from another school from...

Henry Green (00:47:37):

She's Frank Iny, but maybe a bit later.

Yvette Mashaal (00:47:42):

No, I remember, uh, [inaudible 00:47:44] the principal was there. He was there. That's when I was there, I remember [inaudible 00:47:49] he would go and scream at the boys and the girls because they were wild the older... I guess, first time boys and girls are together, he would catch them in the hallway. And I, I remember hearing him go back or he'd give a slap to this one or do this to this one, whatever. I mean, but I was one of the good kids and always, um, chosen for things. So I, I would like, I didn't get into trouble. I was not in trouble, so...

Henry Green (00:48:18):

The, um, this period of '48 to '51 when people were leaving, did, um, were there, were some leaving that were, uh, your friends in school? Some of these girls?

Yvette Mashaal (00:48:31):

Yeah. Yeah. A lot of them... Of course, everybody went their way. A lot of them went to Israel. I mean, I was losing them one by one. They, they all were going... Nobody's as far as I know, stayed in Iraq, but they all went somewhere.

Henry Green (00:48:46):

Did they talk to you about this before they were leaving? Or did they just, you just sort of went to school and they weren't there anymore?

Yvette Mashaal (00:48:52):

No, I think we talked about it. I remember I was in Frank Iny and then this boy came Victor [Adas 00:48:58] and everybody was whispering. His father had just been hanged in Basra. I mean, we knew what was going on. Uh, of course it was sad and we all felt bad for him. He was in my grade and he now lives in Montreal. So, uh, you know you... Oh, his father was this you, you're scared. And I don't remember... Personally, I mean, me as a child, I don't remember ever feeling, uh, cornered or depressed, but I knew it was stressful. I know we were going to, we're going to leave. My father was making plans to leave, but where or what I don't know.

Yvette Mashaal (00:49:45):

I remember I asked my mom to make me a pair of trousers because in the magazines I would see women wearing trousers. So she had made for me. I had long, long hair and I thought that was very, um, old fashioned. So without telling them, uh, went with my friends, uh, one day, whatever, I don't know how, but I went to the hairdresser and I chopped my hair and I came home and everybody thought as if I died. What did you do? And, um, these are memories that I don't know.

Henry Green (00:50:22):

So tell me the story about leaving. Um, what year did you leave, and [crosstalk 00:50:27].

Yvette Mashaal (00:50:27):

Uh, we left in '52. I remember saying bye to my uncles and whatever. And we went by passport, but the passport was four m- uh, in four months if you don't come back to Iraq, you're, you're a refugee, like you're stateless. You had to come back in four months. Of course, we were not going to come back. Uh, my dad had gotten... He was in England and they wouldn't let us all go to England. They gave us the visa to England to stay, but it had... it can't be all seven of us, it had to be six. So as if they're telling him he can't come in. So he met somebody in, um, in England and he told him there's Canada. He never heard about Canada before. And so-and-so is in Canada. And so he went to the Canadian embassy and they gave him the immigration, but there was no medical, no medical facilities in Iraq for the Canadian embassy, there was no embassy.

Yvette Mashaal (00:51:30):

So they told him you had to come to Europe and do the medical and if the medical you pass, you have your immigration. So since we couldn't get into England, all of us, so we went to Paris, all of us as a visit. And I remember we were in Paris... I mean, you want me to start from the beginning or? Okay. So we were in Paris. We arrived by plane and there's my, my, uh, mom's cousin. He was studying at the Sorbonne as a doctor there. So he came to pick us up from, to be with us from the airport. So we're in this taxi and we're going from place to place to find a hotel or a room. And nobody would take us in because five kids they wouldn't take him. And we, I remember going to the police. I remember my dad very agitated and the police couldn't help either.

Yvette Mashaal (00:52:24):

So to make a story short that night, that was my introduction into the world. That night cou- my mommy's cousin took us to his dorm at the Sorbonne, which was a room like a closet as far as I'm concerned for Baghdad. You had a single car there, single bed. Mommy and she had David in her arms and Jimmy slept under her foot on that bed. And the rest of us slept on the floor, literally with the shoes under as pillows and our coat or whatever, as a sheet, because there was nowhere to sleep. And daddy went with the cousin to another friend's dorm and the three men slept there. I don't know how he slept. And then, so the stress started. Like you could feel it all around you now. So now we... The next day, again, going from place to place and he found this [inaudible 00:53:20] that would take us and would allow mommy to cook whatever.

Yvette Mashaal (00:53:24):

And, but we had to be quiet and you have to know, we don't know what is to be quiet because in back that everything was free running, you're screaming... you whatever. So I'm shoosh, shoosh, shoosh to be quiet. And they were scared they would evacuate them because they don't know what other lodging. So now we go, uh, to the embassy after we got the thing and we pass the medical completely. And then he has, my daddy has to go for an inter- to go to the interview with the ambassador of Canada. And he asked daddy, "What you want to do in Quebec? What are you going to do in Quebec?" He says, "I want to be a farmer." And he said, "You're lying. You want to be a farmer? Canceled." I think he was very anti-Semitic. He canceled everybody that came after us also. So now you're stranded in France.

Yvette Mashaal (00:54:15):

We're not going to go back to Iraq and he's eating his money. I remember the stress. I remember you, you had to be frugal like I was the eldest, so I was aware of it. And, uh, like, he brought, let's say he would bring one time to give us five prunes, one for each child or something like that because the expense, and he was getting letters from Israel, then openly how much they're suffering and how much it's [inaudible 00:54:44] road and this and that. And there's no food. So he would make cartoons to send them canned food and whatever. Uh, and he doesn't know what to do. So he was talking with England writing letters to this and this. And I don't know what, anyways, he got us three days. We were four months in France. He got us three days to go to England and, uh, just enough to get the, uh, uh, the immigration papers to have the interview.

Yvette Mashaal (00:55:13):

And we had to buy the ship ticket before we go to England. So I remember we were in England for three days and when they took the ship to come to Canada. So that was a very stressful time for my father. He didn't come with a lot of money. He left with $10,000 that's he told me afterwards and he was eating it up. He was a very good middle-class, but not a rich man. And he came to Canada and he was walking the streets and, uh, trying to do import export or whatever. And he, he was fine. He was successful. He was at the end we all made it, whatever. So I felt bad for him because mommy didn't know any English and we'd all come... Imagine all us, all of us coming back from school. Um, and the irony of it in Canada, they wanted to put me in the French school system because I know more French and, I'm, high school level now.

Yvette Mashaal (00:56:06):

And the French school system, you're Jewish. You can... it's private. You have to pay, I don't know so many thousands a year because the taxes go to the Protestant. So they refused me. I had to go to the English school. So the English, which is okay by now. So the English I had to, that's where I learned my English. And I remember the teacher in Canada would ask me to read in French because I had the right accent and to whatever, because the French there was not so... It wasn't French as far as I was concerned. So that was a, and then he would come home from school. He has to do homework with us. Mommy couldn't... didn't know English very well by the- then. And she was overwhelmed. She was absolutely overwhelmed, uh, coming with five kids and, uh, she was always catered to in a way, and now she has to take care of this and this. And then, so I became her sister, her secondhand helper, the roles sort of changed. Um, that's how it is.

Henry Green (00:57:11):

So let me go back to, um, uh, Baghdad and you're leaving. Did they te- uh, talk to you about their leaving? Did you know it was, uh, coming?

Yvette Mashaal (00:57:21):

Yeah. Yeah. I know where they were living. I know they were leaving. I know we were going away. And I know, I told you, I made the pair of pants and whatever, and I, I...

Henry Green (00:57:31):

Did you take anything special?

Yvette Mashaal (00:57:31):

Yeah, I took a doll. Like I took things. I was allowed this suitcase and I put in whatever, not much, really, not much. I don't know.

Henry Green (00:57:39):

Do you have any of those things still?

Yvette Mashaal (00:57:42):

Yeah. I, I still have some of those things. Yeah.

Henry Green (00:57:45):

Um, and, um, when you, um, went to Paris, your family, you went from Iraq to Paris or did you-

Yvette Mashaal (00:57:55):

Iraq to Paris directly.

Henry Green (00:57:55):

Iraq to Paris. And your... You spoke French, your parents spoke French?

Yvette Mashaal (00:58:01):

Yeah. They can... Mommy knew very well French. We could get along in Paris very well [crosstalk 00:58:06]. And, uh, and in France, in France, those four months, a lot of other couples or other families came to France and they had this, they were all stuck in France the same way we were. So we would go to [inaudible 00:58:21] together. It was like a, I don't know, a few couples with their kids, [inaudible 00:58:26] together. We do this together or be on the subway or whatever. We did things together. And then all of them came back to, came to Canada eventually. And they became friends, but some stayed six months, some stayed were stuck for a year till they got the papers. I don't know. Each one has their own story, how they did it.

Henry Green (00:58:45):

So when you came to Canada, where did you live when you came to Canada?

Yvette Mashaal (00:58:50):

Uh, we came to Canada, uh, by ship and, uh, took a taxi. I think it was the East End, the French section because we didn't know whatever. And then there was Menashi Mashaal.

Henry Green (00:59:06):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Yvette Mashaal (00:59:07):

Uh he, they, my parents knew him and, uh, he's, he sent one of his sons [inaudible 00:59:16] to pick us up from this place that we were at. And he was very generous. And, uh, we, we, he let us stay in their home, all of us till we would find a lodging. And again, it took a long time to find a place where they acc- acc- accept five kids to rent, a duplex to rent with five kids. An, uh, Menashi Mashaal is my, would be my future father-in-law.

Henry Green (00:59:44):

Oh.

Yvette Mashaal (00:59:44):

I married his son Morris.

Henry Green (00:59:45):

Oh.

Yvette Mashaal (00:59:47):

And, um, so we en- we ended up in Ducharme in Outremont. I don't know if you're familiar with Montreal. We had, uh, we had, um, a duplex, upper duplex with the steel staircase, and there was a park in front of us. The park would be skating ring in the winter. And to get that duplex, mommy, till today, she remembers that she can forget. Uh, a rabbi used to live there. And he said to get the duplex, you have to give me $200. No, I don't know. They had to give him some money and then he'll have to buy those things from me for $200. So I don't know how much it costs to the end. So what he gave him for the $200, empty pickle, jars, and a little garbage like that.

Yvette Mashaal (01:00:35):

And he says, this is a rabbi and we are immigrants who just came, instead of helping us he takes us for a ride. Uh, daddy got ulcers after all of this. I mean, he suffered ulcers all his life because, um, I think it was too much. I mean, now I put myself in his place it's, it's, it's hard, but he did it. He's, he's...

Henry Green (01:00:58):

And he, uh, did the import export again or...?

Yvette Mashaal (01:01:01):

Yeah, he did import export and he had a beautiful name in Montreal. Business-wise yeah. He had a... He did, yeah.

Henry Green (01:01:08):

And, and what kind of import, export was, was he doing?

Yvette Mashaal (01:01:11):

I think textiles. It was, I don't know, thread or material or something. And then eventually his brother Albert came to Montreal and became his partner. They were together. And then the other brother Anwar also came to Montreal and slowly over the years, the people from Israel came. So my aunts and whatever, most of them came to Montreal from Israel after being in Israel for many years.

Henry Green (01:01:38):

And did, did, um, um, you belong to a synagogue then in Montreal? Did you go to? Did you the [crosstalk 01:01:45]?

Yvette Mashaal (01:01:45):

Uh yeah we belong to Young Israel. I mean, it was different completely different than what I remember in Baghdad. Yeah. But we went to Young Israel and the community was very close knit, the Iraqi community at that time, anybody who came as an immigrant automatically, whether you know him or you didn't know him, he would be invited. He would be into the community. Afterwards it got bigger, and then it wasn't like that. Like today it's not like this, but, uh, it was... I mean, I remember and there were no kids my age, like I was one with another person and it was dispersed, you know, like we were a few. They would invite everybody in, in one invitation. Uh, my wedding, when I got married, I think they had invited everyone. And there were 300 people.

Henry Green (01:02:37):

Everyone meaning from the Iraqi community?

Yvette Mashaal (01:02:39):

From Iraqi community yeah, and there was 300.

Henry Green (01:02:41):

And who did you marry?

Yvette Mashaal (01:02:42):

I married Morris, Morris, Mashaal.

Henry Green (01:02:46):

And, and what did you marry?

Yvette Mashaal (01:02:47):

1956.

Henry Green (01:02:49):

And, um, and, uh, Morris, uh, w- w -was he... what's his occupation?

Yvette Mashaal (01:02:56):

Uh, Morris came from Iran. He went to MIT. He's an engineer. He's a graduate of MIT.

Henry Green (01:03:11):

And when did he come from Iran? Was he a child, a adult?

Yvette Mashaal (01:03:11):

No, no, no, no. He was about 17, 18. He went to, uh... I think he did one year high school, Hill School, he calls it, I'm not sure in the States. And then he went to, he got accepted to MIT.

Henry Green (01:03:22):

And how did he end up in Montreal then?

Yvette Mashaal (01:03:25):

Well, all his family, they didn't let his father... His father tried to be in, in New York and they wouldn't let him be in New York. And so somebody at the time said Canada and he came to Canada, and because when they left Iran, um, that's his story. When they left Iran, they couldn't leave all at once. Some kids, he had seven boys and one girl. So some were in France.

Henry Green (01:03:49):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Yvette Mashaal (01:03:49):

Some were in the states, some whatever, still in Iran. So he got them all together in, in Canada.

Henry Green (01:03:59):

And your, um, when you went to Young Israel, Young Israel, would have been an Ashkenazic synagogue?

Yvette Mashaal (01:04:03):

Yeah.

Henry Green (01:04:04):

So did the Ashkenazi influence your Sephardi heritage at all?

Yvette Mashaal (01:04:09):

No, not really. I was young and, uh, I was just going to synagogue because to go to synagogue. Um, [crosstalk 01:04:17] I got married there. The, the rabbi, their marred, uh, married us. And then we went to the Spanish and Portuguese.

Henry Green (01:04:29):

When did you move to Spanish, Portuguese. Do you remember?

Yvette Mashaal (01:04:29):

It's after I got married, I, I... Maybe in the '60s. I don't, I don't know.

Henry Green (01:04:33):

And were you active in the Spanish, Portuguese synagogue?

Yvette Mashaal (01:04:36):

Uh, after a while, not right away. Yeah, I... They asked me to be active and I [inaudible 01:04:41] want me to lead you like choose one among yourself. No, no. Anyway, they twisted my arm and I became Karen Babel. We formed Karen Babel and we were very good. We were very successful. So we did a lot of lunches. We raised money. We raised... We did fairs and stuff like that, and we raised money and, um, we educated a hell of a lot of people with Iraqi, uh, heritage. Like the mother, or the father [inaudible 01:05:11]... Something Iraqi that needed money.

Henry Green (01:05:15):

Within Montreal or...?

Yvette Mashaal (01:05:16):

No, in, in Israel.

Henry Green (01:05:18):

In Israel.

Yvette Mashaal (01:05:18):

In Israel, not within Montreal.

Henry Green (01:05:20):

And connected to any university or some special...?

Yvette Mashaal (01:05:24):

At the end, we gave it to Bar-Ilan University because most of the, the, the bulk sum, because most of the money, most of the people are in Bar-Ilan University. I mean, now they're all over. And it's still an endowment that...

Henry Green (01:05:39):

Did... When you were in, um, in the '50s and you came and there was a small Iraqi community, what language did you speak at home?

Yvette Mashaal (01:05:50):

Uh, we spoke, I spoke Arabic. Uh, a lot of people tried not to speak. I mean, when we were invited and among the people, it was always Arabic. They would put in few words of English in between and that became the norm. You speak Arabic and English mixed. Uh, but most families would try to speak only English with their children. And like my kids that my, my, my siblings were, um, were speaking English and my father would speak English with us to, to teach us English. But I, I was never, uh... I never had a hang-up that I am, that I know Arabic and I'm Arabic. I always said I'm from Iraq and I speak Arabic.

Yvette Mashaal (01:06:36):

But a lot of, a lot of Iraqis would hide it and would not want to say that they're from Iraq or, um, they're not proud of it. But as far as I was concerned, that's where I was born. That's where I come from and I'm not going to hide it. And it... So I never did. I always, I never tried to forget it either. It's like, it's, it's, it's my heritage.

Henry Green (01:07:04):

Do you have children?

Yvette Mashaal (01:07:07):

I have two children. I have Michael and Marina.

Henry Green (01:07:10):

And when was Michael born?

Yvette Mashaal (01:07:12):

Michael was born in 1961 and Marina in 1964.

Henry Green (01:07:17):

And, um, what schools did they go to in Montreal?

Yvette Mashaal (01:07:21):

Uh, they went to Talmud Torah, uh, and then after Talmud Torah, Michael went to LCC and Marina went to Ms. Edgar, Ms. Grahams, and Michael went to university to MIT. And then he came to Montreal, uh, to McGill. He took law. And then Marina after Ms. Edgar, Ms. Graham's. She went to Brandeis University. And after Brandeis University, she went to Elmhurst. And then she took a teaching degree from the University of Toronto. So (laughs)...

Henry Green (01:08:09):

And, uh, do you have grandchildren?

Yvette Mashaal (01:08:11):

I have three from Michael. Michael is married to his wife, Marla, and they have three children. Stewart is 21, Samantha is 18 going to be 19 and Jennifer is 16.

Henry Green (01:08:26):

And they live where?

Yvette Mashaal (01:08:29):

They live in Montreal. Uh, Stewart goes to McGill. Samantha just got accepted in University of Pennsylvania, uh, early acceptance. And Jennifer's in high school.

Henry Green (01:08:42):

And when your kids grew up, um, um, where did you live in Montreal?

Yvette Mashaal (01:08:47):

Uh, we lived in, uh, TMR, uh, in an apartment. Then we got a home in TMR on Sinclair road. And after ” we built a house in Westmount.

Henry Green (01:09:00):

And your... And what Synagogues did you... It's, it's always the Spanish and Portuguese?

Yvette Mashaal (01:09:04):

Always the Spanish and Portuguese.

Henry Green (01:09:05):

And what language did you speak to your children?

Yvette Mashaal (01:09:08):

I spoke English, but we, they always heard Arabic. Sometimes I would speak with them Arabic, but they didn't answer. They understand it pretty well. They will say a couple of words when they have to, but they don't know how to converse, but if we speak, they, they understand it.

Henry Green (01:09:23):

Did you and your husband speak Arabic together?

Yvette Mashaal (01:09:26):

We speak mixed, I think without realizing it. Mostly English, but we always interject few Ara- in, you know, a few Arabic words.

Henry Green (01:09:35):

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Did, um, was Israel important for you when, uh, you had your family and your kids growing up?

Yvette Mashaal (01:09:43):

Oh, yeah, Israel was always a big part. It's... Uh, we, uh, went visit with the kids to Israel when they were in school a few times I had family there. I've always wanted to go to, you know? Yeah, Israel was always very important. I love Israel.

Henry Green (01:10:00):

So you, you would go visit Israel? Um...

Yvette Mashaal (01:10:02):

Oh I went many times.

Henry Green (01:10:04):

Many times.

Yvette Mashaal (01:10:04):

[inaudible 01:10:04].

Henry Green (01:10:05):

And did, um, your children have a bar mitzvah or bat mitzvah?

Yvette Mashaal (01:10:11):

Yeah, my son had a bar mitzvah. Uh, my, my daughter Marina was one of the first bat mitzvahs because when I wanted to give her a bat... She, you know, she asked, she said she was very good in Hebrew and Tama Tura and she said, I would like to have a bat mitzvah and we never did bat mitzvah Iraqis. So at the time I remember I went to Rabbi Joseph, and I said, "I'd like a bat mitzvah for Marina." And it was not very common then. So he said, "Okay, she can do it. Like, uh, after the, after the service of Shabbat, she can do this or that." So she did, she was one of the first to-

Henry Green (01:10:48):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Yvette Mashaal (01:10:48):

... have a bat mitzvah in the Spanish.

Henry Green (01:10:50):

So-

Yvette Mashaal (01:10:52):

And then I gave her a party at home.

Henry Green (01:10:55):

Do you, do you still cook, cook Sephardi food?

Yvette Mashaal (01:10:57):

Yeah. [inaudible 01:10:58].

Henry Green (01:10:58):

Do you, do you see yourself more... Do you, would you call it yourself, Bavli, or would you call yourself Sephardi? Do...

Yvette Mashaal (01:11:08):

I don't know. I am who I am. I don't know. I'm Sephardi. Um, I, I, I can be Ashkenazi.

Henry Green (01:11:13):

(laughs).

Yvette Mashaal (01:11:18):

(laughs) I'm Sephardi. But what's the difference. I'm Jewish, whatever it is.

Henry Green (01:11:20):

Mm-hmm (affirmative). What, um... Besides you, you, you, you said that you still cook Sephardic food.

Yvette Mashaal (01:11:26):

Yeah.

Henry Green (01:11:26):

Um...

Yvette Mashaal (01:11:28):

But I cook all kinds of food. I mean, it's not... But I do cook the dishes.

Henry Green (01:11:32):

So on, on Jewish holidays, would that be more... Would you cook a Sephardi dish for Pesach or for...?

Yvette Mashaal (01:11:39):

Well, what happens for the Jewish holidays, uh, we get together the Mashaals. There's seven brothers and they have children and they got married and dah, dah, dah. So on those occasions, we do it collectively. It would be at somebody's house-

Henry Green (01:12:00):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Yvette Mashaal (01:12:01):

And wou- everybody would bring a dish and, uh, and things like that. So it's a big holiday to get together for the family. And, uh, so I would cook one or two dishes that they asked for.

Henry Green (01:12:14):

Do you, do you, um, do you consider yourself a, um, um, a refugee, an immigrant? Uh, how, how would you define your experience from leaving Iraq?

Yvette Mashaal (01:12:32):

I guess by, by, um, status, I have to say I'm a refugee because I was definitely a refugee. I was stateless. We have the papers, like when we came to Canada, I'm, I'm, a refugee and I didn't become Canadian with my family because after, within the five years, when my family became Canadian, I was married by then. So my... and I was underage still. I was 17, so my husband became my guardian, so to speak from my father. So he didn't become Canadian till three years after, that's, when I was allowed to become Canadian. I don't know. Don't ask me about the rules, but I came Cana-

Henry Green (01:13:12):

(laughs).

Yvette Mashaal (01:13:12):

I became Canadian eight years after the fact. So, and I had that, that time just, uh, stateless, just uh, like, uh [foreign language 01:13:22] whatever it's called-

Henry Green (01:13:23):

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yvette Mashaal (01:13:24):

... or refugee. Yeah. That's what I had. I didn't have a passport.

Henry Green (01:13:27):

Did your, your children... How did they view themselves? Do, do you...

Yvette Mashaal (01:13:30):

Canadians.

Henry Green (01:13:31):

As Canadians.

Yvette Mashaal (01:13:33):

As Canadians, Iraqi heritage. And I was very lucky when they didn't accept me at the French school system, because Morris didn't study in, uh, in Montreal. He was, you know, in the states and what have you. So by then the French movement stated that the children, if the parents didn't go to a school, English school, the children automatically, they have to go into the French system. And if the children didn't... I mean if the parents didn't go to any school they have to go to a Jewish system. So I was in the school system, the Protestant school system, and it was fine that they could go to school. Otherwise it would have been, uh, something else.

Henry Green (01:14:17):

Did the, um... Since you were part of the, uh, experience, um, when, um, Trudeau and the VEC, uh, were busy and, uh, you were, you had children at school. Did this affect you at all in any way?

Yvette Mashaal (01:14:34):

Yeah, of course. There was an upheaval, people were scared. Uh, a lot of people that I know of, uh, took a lot of money out and put it in Ottawa or whatever. And they said, it's a second Exodus. Like, "Oh they want it to be..." The Ashkenazi... I mean, I, by then I have so many friends Ashkenazis. But Ashkenazis were Iraqis, or what have you. They were all, uh, concerned and they didn't know it. A lot of people moved to Toronto. Uh, a lot of young went away and, but Morris had a lot of business in Montreal and, uh, we were trying to build the house. Uh, we were trying, and then this moment came along and he said, "I'm not going to put money in, Quebec. I'm not building a house we're leaving. Dah, da, dah, dah."

Yvette Mashaal (01:15:26):

I don't know. Maybe I look at things differently. So I asked him after a little bit, and I said, "Morris, are you ever leaving Montreal soon?" He said, "No, only when I have to." So I said, "Because if we leave Montreal, it's going to be a different lifestyle. We wouldn't need a house by then.

Henry Green (01:15:44):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Yvette Mashaal (01:15:45):

So what is a house in comparison to what you own in Montreal? Like are you going to leave everything, all the buildings? If you have to run, you're going to leave everything. What is a house?" He says, "Not a big part." So I said, said, "Whatever years we have, why can't we enjoy?

Henry Green (01:16:02):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Yvette Mashaal (01:16:03):

Build a house enjoy? And when we leave, we'll leave, that's all. If that's what it's going to come to, we don't know." I don't know how he bought it. He bought it. And we built a house in Westmount, and we moved in '80. And now look from '80-

Henry Green (01:16:17):

Mm-hmm (affirmative), mm-hmm (affirmative).

Yvette Mashaal (01:16:18):

... now, it's '16, we're in the house. So...

Henry Green (01:16:22):

And how did Florida come into the picture?

Yvette Mashaal (01:16:26):

That's a funny story. Florida was, um, we used to go to Acapulco for Christmas vacations with the kids all the time. And then one year my uncle [Nazim 01:16:36] the doctor who's in Israel, he came to visit Montreal with his wife and he stayed with us. And, uh, he said, uh, "Yvette, I'd like to go to Miami. Would you come with us to Miami and you'll be with us?" It was summertime. So Morris said, "Yeah. Okay. We'll go together to Miami. But I heard Fort Lauderdale..." I don't know what. He hated Miami. "We'll stay in Fort Lauderdale and we'll drive to Miami. We'll show them Miami." I said, "Fine." He said, "Fine." So he stayed here at down the... It was Hilton. Now it's Sky or something. It changed. It was, it was a nice, much nicer hotel.

Yvette Mashaal (01:17:15):

So across the road, there were models for Playa Del Mar or Playa Del Sol. So we went for fun just with my uncle and my aunt to look at the models just, and I fell in love with the, with the model, with the decoration yellow and yellow carpet. It was like Floridian. So, um, and my aunt said, "It's like a doll's house. Why don't you buy one? You're in Canada." Whatever so... And I said to Morris, "Morris, why can't we buy one? It's nice to with to come with the kids or whatever." "Uh, I don't want to put money," he says. "But you're losing market here left and right. And you making in market. So instead of the market, put it here."

Henry Green (01:17:57):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Yvette Mashaal (01:17:58):

Anyway to make a story short. Within this one week we bought in Playa Del Sol. He called the agent and we went around and this and that. And we like the strip because we love the beach we're not golfers. And we bought here. And then we come back to (laughs) Montreal and everybody, and we say, we want an apartment. They couldn't believe it.

Henry Green (01:18:14):

Mm-hmm (affirmative). (laughs).

Yvette Mashaal (01:18:14):

"You bought an apartment." "We bought an apartment." And then all the brothers came. So now all the brothers are in this building. (laughing)The whole family is here.

Henry Green (01:18:26):

You started a movement.

Yvette Mashaal (01:18:28):

I started a movement.

Henry Green (01:18:30):

Okay. It's recording. So, um, I want to ask you, uh, how do you, um, see yourself in terms of your identity? How would you define yourself?

Yvette Mashaal (01:18:44):

I'm a woman, Jewish woman, number one from the Iraqi community, from Babylon, from Baghdad. Uh, I cherish my, whatever it is. It gives me a different viewpoint, a different look at things, but at the same time, I'm Canadian. And, uh, I've lived all my life in Canada and I consider it my home, and I love what Canada gave me. And then I'm a of course, a mother and a wife. And lastly, I'm an artist, that's my passion. And I'm an artist.

Henry Green (01:19:28):

So, um, tell me a bit about artist. Um, you, um, were formally trained as an artist or..?

Yvette Mashaal (01:19:38):

No. Uh, well, in Baghdad, you have to understand the school system there never give drawings, like here kids draw in crayons and stuff. We never had that in Baghdad at all. Uh, so when we came to Canada, uh, I went to school and one of the subjects was art. And the teacher was very mean to me because I would, we would be marketing art and here I'm struggling to make it in the other subjects and to learn English and this and that, and art you can't study for. So, you know, draw a house or draw whatever project she would give us, always brought my averages down. And I always felt so horrible with my art. Like I was shy to say I can draw, or I, I couldn't, you know, it was always my lowest thing. So anyway, so I finished high school and we went to New York because Morris was, uh, working in New York for a year after MIT.

Yvette Mashaal (01:20:43):

And there I went to Mayer School of Fashion to become a designer because I was making my clothes since my father couldn't afford it, I would make my clothes on pattern and stuff. So I love designing, and I went there for designing. And part of the designing was sketching. And I say... I refuse to take that subject. I said, "I don't want to do sketching because I know I'd be so bad at it." I had such a stigma from this teacher. So everything was in my head. Like I could see the dress in my head and the details, but I, I didn't want to put it on paper, so I guess, whatever. So I was a designer and, um, came to, came back home to Montreal after a year. And I was a housewife. I was cooking, I brought up my children, I loved the part of being a mom.

Yvette Mashaal (01:21:36):

I loved the role of being a mom. I never looked down upon it. And I, I'm very proud to say I'm a housewife. And, um, then, uh, I was taking courses here and there many, many courses in many, many... I, I you could say I'm self-educated. I never went to university, high school level, but I took courses and stuff. And I would always take something in art, uh, whether clay, whatever, but nothing major. And people around me were doing art lessons, but they were copying masters. I didn't want to do that. Anyway, one day to make a story short, we went to this friend and I see her name sign on a painting and say, "Oh, I didn't know, you paint." And she says, "Yeah, I paint so and so, whatever with so-and-so." And next [inaudible 01:22:28], the next week she invites me and she introduces me to the teacher.

Yvette Mashaal (01:22:33):

It started as a joke and said, "My, I think my friend would like to come to your class would like to paint." And I don't know why she pushed me. I mean, I didn't say I want to go. And then he said, "Okay, if you're going to Florida buy paints and come to my class." And Morris was joking, he says, "Yeah, why don't you go and paint a yellow thing with a black dot and whatever. So we don't have to buy paintings." So I went and we went and I came and I went to Games at the time and I bought paints, and I went down and that was the beginning of the beginning. And I just loved it. And it took me a long time to say I'm an artist, to admit to myself that I'm an artist and it's not just a hobby. And, um, and I wear a double hat because a lot of the Iraqi communities don't take me seriously because they know me as Yvette Mashaal Moore. And she's an artist. She's not an artist or so, whatever, but I wear two hats.

Henry Green (01:23:38):

And which mediums do you work in?

Yvette Mashaal (01:23:39):

I do oil. I do etchings. A lot of types of etching and printmaking. And here in Florida 'cause I couldn't paint I, I just don't have the room. It's not so private, so I went to sculpting. And I s- I l- I sculpt in Florida, which I love very much. So all the sculptures that are here are mine, all the stone sculptures

Henry Green (01:24:03):

And you use mostly which medium in, in, uh, for your sculpture? Is it marble?

Yvette Mashaal (01:24:08):

Stone. The marble-

Henry Green (01:24:09):

Stone.

Yvette Mashaal (01:24:09):

... stone, onyx.

Henry Green (01:24:11):

And is it... Are your, um, works in galleries?

Yvette Mashaal (01:24:14):

Yes. I show in Montreal in some galleries. But I don't pur- pursue it like to... I don't sell myself very much in Florida or go knock at doors or go to galleries. It's mostly what comes my way in a way.

Henry Green (01:24:32):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Yvette Mashaal (01:24:34):

I don't, uh...

Henry Green (01:24:36):

So let me ask you, um, one last question, and that is, um, what message would you like to give to anyone who would listen to this interview?

Yvette Mashaal (01:24:50):

Be yourself, be proud of who you are because no matter what you do, that's who you are.