Proofread by: Rebecca Lash
Transcribed by: Temi
Interview Date: 10/18/2019
Location: Montreal, Canada
Interviewer: Lisette Shashoua
Total time: 1:32:56
Notes: LS = Lisette Shashoua, VS = Vivianne Silver
Vivianne Silver: Born in Cairo, Egypt on April 20th, 1942. Arrived in Montreal in 1957.
Lisette Shashoua (00:00:16):
First of all, I'd like to thank you very much, uh, Vivianne for participating in, uh, Sephardi voices. We really appreciate your presence. Uh, could you give me your full name, your place of birth and your date of birth please?
Vivianne Silver (00:00:35):
Okay. First of all, I would also like to thank you very much for thinking that I was worthy of an interview. It means a lot to me to leave a legacy for my children and my grandchildren, because I'm very proud of my background. I was born in Cairo in, uh, on April 9th, 20th, 1942. Um, at dawn, my mother reminds me that it was a beautiful morning and, uh, just spring, beginning in Cairo [shamal asim (ph)] as we say. And, um, my name is Vivianne. [Shkenazi] Silver. Actually my middle name is Matilda, which I don't always use. It was my paternal grandmother's name, Matilda. Um, Hasoon, she was born in Lebanon, but came to Egypt.
Lisette Shashoua (00:01:30):
And that makes you how old today?
Vivianne Silver (00:01:35):
Much. Well, I'm proud to say actually every single line on my face. I call them my medals. I'm 76 years old and I'm very blessed with a good life, a good health, and to be here today. So thank God. Baruch Hashem.
Lisette Shashoua (00:01:54):
Well, we're lucky to have. Thank you. Now, could you please tell me something about your family's background, your parents, grandparents, your early memories?
Vivianne Silver (00:02:07):
Yeah, again, I must say that my life began as a blessing. I was the first child of my parents. They were very much in love, always transmitted that. So I grew up in an atmosphere of joy. Laughter fun, warmth family, and just being in Egypt. I mean, there were, we had, we were lucky being middle class comfortable Jews. My dad was in business, a prosperous hardware business, I guess in Cairo. It was the equivalent of what would be in Montreal to [pascals]. So his father had the hardware business in Alexandria and my dad was in Cairo and it was flourishing because it was the time post-war when Egypt was taking on its own stride. And there was a lot of development in the railway system and so on. And he supplied much of that. We lived in a initially a small apartment and Heliopolis, Heliopolis means city of sun, which today is [masr gadida] the new Cairo near the airport. Um, a little apartment and walking distance from my school. Um, I was one of three children. I'm the eldest, I have two brothers, youngest brother unfortunately passed away in Montreal, but a very happy childhood because during the day I would go to school around the corner, it was a convent, le couvent Notre Dame des [inaudible].
Vivianne Silver (00:03:43):
Um, French was the link lingua franca after Napoleon and his whole troop came and the Suez canal, he brought with him, French teachers. So we all spoke French, a bit of Arabic, a bit of English, a bit of Italian, but French is what we spoke at home. So I started school early. I think I was only four and loved it. I think education was really the door to the rest of my life. How the sisters, les bonnes petite soeurs, um, implanted that love of learning, which, I eventually became an educator myself, but that's where it started just love of learning of singing. And I must say the nuns, we were only two Jewish girls in the whole school. They were very respectful of our Judaism because even at Christmas there was the ok, les petites aller-la. They would send us in a little room and then they would honor Christmas and so on.
Vivianne Silver (00:04:46):
So I grew up in an atmosphere of respect. And what was beautiful about being in Egypt is you didn't have distinction. We had a neighbour who was Muslim and other one who was Coptic. We even had a Christmas tree in our home. We celebrated everything. If it was Ramadan, some days we would fast, but not always. But, um, Christmas, I had a little Christmas tree in my house until unfortunately I burned it because I lit the candles, whatever that's. But just to say, there was that whole atmosphere of togetherness and respect for the other, which came to an abrupt halt when I came to Montreal. But that's another story. Um, so during the, during the week it was school, which I loved and we had, I had a helper that we were fortunate to have. My mom was fortunate to have help on the weekend, was wonderful.
Vivianne Silver (00:05:46):
My dad would pack us into his little Citroen and we would be off to the pyramids. That was our daily, our weekly ex, exodus we'd cross the bridge, [Qasr Al-Nile] and go to the Mena house for tea. And if lucky, my dad would say, okay, okay, on va, we would go on the camel ride. But in general it was, well, we had tea at the pyramids and that's why my love of tea at four o'clock. I must have my cup of tea. It was like a British or British tradition. So again, you know, it was cosmopolitan. We had a bit of the Italian food, the British tea, the French language, how privileged, I felt very, I took it for granted. I only realized how privileged I was once I became an immigrant. And things changed
Lisette Shashoua (00:06:45):
When you had tea in the pyramids, was there a cafe or you took your own tea as a picnic, or
Vivianne Silver (00:06:51):
When we went to the pyramids, we were served, there was cheap at the mena, the mena house, which used to be a hunting lodge, became a famous hotel. Um, which today, I think is an Oberoi or something. Cause I did go back to Egypt. We went back, no, it was a beautiful historical hotel. And in the garden in front we'd be served by, you know, the, um, the waiters would be wearing their white galabeya with the little red sash and a tarbush. And we'd have to sit very nicely, but it was an elegant hour. Which [LS: did you go inside the pyramids every week?] No. We sat at the mena house and looked at the pyramids. There was no. [LS: Did you go inside the pyramid?] I did not because I can't say never in 1998, uh, after I was married and with children, I was determined to show my husband where I grew up because he grew up in Outremont, and every Sunday here in Montreal, he would drive by his house.
Vivianne Silver (00:07:58):
This is where I grew up. This is where my children and I always felt, you know, what about my life? What about that [whole taken] my 15 years? What about that? So one day we did go, 1998. It was unfortunately after my dad passed away. So I wasn't able to tell him about it, but we went back to, I went back to Egypt to show my husband that in fact, it was very civilized, that I wasn't born under a camel or lived in a tent. And I showed him, I found my apartment. I found my apartment right up to the door. My school was still there. And speaking of the pyramids, my husband went in, I get claustrophobia. So he went in and they took us into Cheops. The biggest, uh, the biggest of the pyramids, but I did not. So that's my pyramid story.
Lisette Shashoua (00:08:59):
What do you remember of your grandparents? Your great grandparents, great grandparents.
Vivianne Silver (00:09:05):
I never met my great grandfather except through the voice of my mother. She said that he was an artist, a painter that as a little girl, she would come up in his studio and look and would watch him draw and paint. That's the only thing I know about my maternal great grandfather, as far as my grandparents are concerned again, I was really blessed by the love of four people. Um, in all humility, I think I was my maternal grandmother's favorite little granddaughter because I was always, my mom made sure that I had a neat bow on my hair, and my ears were clean that I would come into her house and pass the inspection. But aside from that, she was a very cultured woman. And, um, my first experience of going to the opera, the Cairo Cairo opera, and [Saada Ayina] was with my grandmother.
Vivianne Silver (00:10:05):
She had us in a car and we drove there and I was, think I was seven years old. And my first experience of a piano was that my maternal grandmother's, I play the piano today again, I went back to my studies. Um, but just to say the culture, she was very cultivated, well-read traveled, uh, quite the woman. I call her my queen Esther. Her name was Esther, Esther, her second husband, Mizrahi, but Levy, so maternal grandmother, I remember very fondly. Um, and I wanted to grow up to be just like her, quite the woman ahead of her days. My maternal grandfather was a very, um, retiring, quiet unassuming, uh, gentlemen, a very gentle person, but they were divorced. So I didn't see too much of him. Although my parents invited him, my paternal grandparents were very special because they lived in Alexandria. So would only get to see them in the summer.
Vivianne Silver (00:11:13):
And they lived in this beautiful, beautiful apartment building called the Cleopatra. It was facing the Mediterranean sea. And in my paternal grandparents home, there were all these daughters. I think I had five aunts. Yeah. Five aunts who were superb cooks. So it was always a feast. They lived up on the, I think it was the eighth floor and from their dining room, which is humongous table. We'd be all these people, like a tribe, probably 20 people and the food just kept coming and the laughter and the singing. And it was just a happy time, really happy time. Both. I was blessed with the love and vie formidable of all my grandparents. Yeah. Yeah. The sad part though, is I said goodbye to my paternal grandfather. The day we left Alexandria and never saw him again. He passed away. He passed away just a month before his visa came for Canada.
Lisette Shashoua (00:12:33):
Do you remember? Sorry, your cousins growing up with your cousins. Um, the, you know, the, the Seder, Shabbat.
Vivianne Silver (00:12:45):
Yeah. Yeah. Well that again, [LS: did you eat together with everybody?] that again, My grandmother's home was the meeting place. She lived in central Heliopolis overlooking just a little Metro near the sporting club facing a wonderful restaurant called Le Palmyra. It's still there, but her place was a place of meeting, and I think we were about, uh, we're now 21. We were about 16, 17 cousins. My maternal grandmother had, um, at the time in Egypt, seven children, five of whom were married, each had children. And so it was fun with the cousins I had. I was very close to my cousins. Some of them, well, one in particular was a little upset at me because she knew that my grandmother liked me. Um, but it was, we were close. We had fun together. We encourage each other. We, Oh, the big attraction near my grandmother were the outdoor cinemas. There were three cinemas, Le Normandy, Le Palace I think, whatever. So she would give us the money and at five o'clock, we'd all trot down to the cinema and saw films. Like Ben Hur like Gone with the Wind. I think that's when I first heard English, you know, and Oh, Esther Williams, I love this Esther Williams. And so this cinema, we'd- we'd be a row of probably 15 kids. There was no age limit. Like the little one, my little brother, I was 10. So he was five, you know, we'd all be sitting there eating ice cream
Lisette Shashoua (00:14:31):
You'd would go alone without anybody escorting you
Vivianne Silver (00:14:33):
Well, there would be an aunt, usually in a backseat [laughs] watching over all the kids. But, um, it was family, you know, just family, conscious of, I don't think I was conscious. I took it for granted. This was our life and I lived it. Oh. And the place, was my dad. After the movies, we'd go to a place called the Hattie [ph]. The Hattie was the restaurant that specialize in falafel foul madames, kofta, all the delicious dishes. One of my sons, the other day said, mom, what's your favorite kind of food. They like Chinese, spaghetti, whatever. And I had to think for a minute and I said, you know what? I still love my foul madames, my kofta, and my, uh, and my, uh, falafel. Yeah. [LS: do you get it here?] Yeah. Yeah. [LS: Where do you go for the kofta?] There's a, there's a place on, uh, on Monkland. Uh, what's his name? [LS: Uh, chase] He really makes a nice and a nice, babaghanoush [laughs], they stay, you know, these are all the dishes that give me pleasure. So, and I don't, I'm not a good cook. That's my down, my down or whatever.
Lisette Shashoua (00:15:56):
What about uh Shabbat? Did you go to synagogue? What about going to synagogue? What about the holidays?
Vivianne Silver (00:16:01):
Oh my God. Thank you so much for asking, because my Jewish soul really took hold in the little synagogue in Heliopolis. The first thing I ever wrote was called a poem called under my father's tallis because we had a beautiful, and Heliopolis little synagogue called the Amajar [ph]. It was near the, uh, school. Um, and the women would be upstairs, you know, in the balcony and the men of course, downstairs. And then my father would usually say to me, okay, yeah, he would signal me and be six or seven years old. I could run. And he would just enfold me in his tallis. And that's where my Jewish conscience was born. I would hear my dad. He was devout, not crazy, but very proud. He was very, a proud Jew. I could say that, you know, he, he, he, he walked all in his Judaism and so, um, he would take me under his Tallis.
Vivianne Silver (00:17:11):
I felt secure. I felt, hey, you know what? This is, this is a good place to be. And from there it just grew. I didn't go to Jewish school. Unfortunately I didn't have enough time to learn Hebrew. My dad had a private teacher who came to the house to train my brother for his Bar Mitzvah. In those days, the girls were not as respectfully regarded. So I didn't have a chance it's on my bucket list, but I don't know if I'll ever get there, but all to say the community was there, Shabats were observed. And the other beautiful thing is, as we would walk out of the synagogue Anijar [ph], uh, the rabbi would hand us. These leaves, the greenery, which was, um, I think it was Myrtle, Myrtle leaves. Khadra [ph] and my dad, after it was blessed with, we'd drive downtown to his store and he would put it near the door of his store for good luck. So all to say there was a consciousness of an, a pride of being Jewish. We didn't feel only after 1948 after, you know, the state of Israel, some people were accused of Zionism and so on, but it just continued. Life was good.
Lisette Shashoua (00:18:29):
Okay. So now your dad worked on Saturday after?
Vivianne Silver (00:18:33):
No, he didn't work on Saturdays. He didn't Saturday, Sunday, no. Saturday was, he went to synagogue, Sunday we had the family outing. Oh yeah, yeah, no, the weekends were sacred. [LS: Um, but usually the days off were Friday in Egypt?] There wasn't, it's not like in a community where everybody's Jewish, because it was such a mixed community. We didn't make it obvious, you know, clothes this and that it was just, he would close the store at four o'clock on a Friday, come home, have Shabbat, whatever. [LS: No, I mean, I mean the rest of Egypt in Egypt], no, you didn't feel no, no, there wasn't that great- no, there wasn't that mass observance. It was, it's not a Jewish state. It's an Egypt- [LS: No, I'm talking about Friday, I'm saying, what day is the official day off of the country? It's Friday] Oh [LS: was Friday and official day off?]. Do you know what? It's a good question. I don't remember, but I'm sure they had, I mean, we would hear the muezzin, Allah-u-akbar, Allah-u-akbar, it would happen even during the week, but probably Friday, you know, we would hear from the mosque [LS: so the stores would close a certain day or they were?] Sunday, Sunday, Sunday was the official, now that I think of it, we couldn't go shopping on Sunday. [LS: That is very, very different] Yeah, it was. Yeah. They closed on Sundays. Yeah.
Lisette Shashoua (00:20:08):
[So how did you close on Sundays] Oh, okay. You told me about your school experiences, the life cycle. You remember that you remember parties, weddings, Bar Mitzvahs. What about the Bar Mitzvahs there? How were they? They were at the house?
Vivianne Silver (00:20:28):
No, it was usually the synagogue and truthfully, I don't remember. None of my cousins were Bar Mitzvah age, so really that consciousness of Bar Mitzvahs and so on became, I became aware here in Montreal [LS: and Brit Milahs?} Brit Milah for sure. Oh my God. My youngest, I remember vividly the day of my late youngest brother's Milah, Brit Mila. Cause it happened in our home and I dunno how it happened, but my father rented or was given this humongous throne that sat in the dining room and the [parnass] whoever held the baby. I think it was my uncle, my uncle Raymond, after whom my brother was named, held the baby. That's all I remember. I just remember that it was an unusual happening. That's the only Brit Milah and I really remember my brothers. Yeah. So it happened. In other words, holidays were observed. Pesach was a very big thing in Cairo.
Vivianne Silver (00:21:35):
My dad would drive us to the, uh, Ben Ezra or, uh, Ben Ezra synagogue in old Cairo and there much to my display. dismay also, he would have the shoichet slaughter, a lamb, and the meat would be distributed to the poor. That was the ritual at Pesach, which I was not happy about. Especially one year he actually brought the lamb home for a few days. I got attached to that little thing and then we had to take it down to, that wasn't a happy time, but it was observed like we were as a community, um, comfortable community. Uh, we always took care of the, uh, disadvantaged, you know, there was meat to be given to the poor, if there was a widow people got together and there was a consciousness of taking care of the disadvantaged that I remember the Mitzvah, the Mitzvah.
Lisette Shashoua (00:22:43):
Tell me, were there any Jewish clubs when you were growing or a Zionist? Or anything, you remember, any, any of that?
Vivianne Silver (00:22:52):
I know that I know that there was a Young Judaea club because that's where my parents met, but my own personal experience was uh, much more cosmopolitan.
Lisette Shashoua (00:23:03):
Can you tell us about how your parents met?
Vivianne Silver (00:23:08):
Okay. Um, my mom grew up in the convent. La Bon Pasteur, Cause unfortunately as much as I love my grandmother, she was divorced from my grandfather and it was rough on my mom and where she went le um, Le Couvent du Bon Pasteur, the mother superior became a surrogate mother and had my mother not met my dad when she did. She probably would've converted. She loved her so much. She loved the mother Marie Estelle. She used to sing in the choir. My mom loved to sing. She was the teacher there. Um, but one day,
Lisette Shashoua (00:23:52):
I'm sorry. I forgot to ask you your parents' names
Vivianne Silver (00:23:57):
Names. Oh, my father, my father's name was Joseph Schinasi [ph]. I think his middle- his middle name was Nissim, because I see that on his business card, my mother was Susanne, Susanne Levy, then Schinasi. Anyways, so, um, I think her brother took her to a club called la young, la jeune judaea or something, she loved to dance and I think she met my dad. It, it was probably love at first sight. They just, they fell in love. And um, I think my paternal grandparents were not too much in favor, but they calmed down. And so my parents married and I was born, I think less than 10 months later. But, um, that's the only thing I know about a young Judaea club.
Lisette Shashoua (00:24:54):
And, uh, it's very rare that at that age to be divorced your grandparents, can you give me their names and
Vivianne Silver (00:25:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good question because my, my grandmother Esther, uh, what was her maiden name? Rabinovitch? Abramovitch. my grandmother was Esther Abramovich. And as I said before, she was a woman ahead of her days. She initially had the five children with my nono Mussa, uh, Moise Levy, but then she fell in love with this other man and left the children and went to live with him, which was very unusual. Uh, but they did get married and then she had two daughters after that, it was unusual.
Lisette Shashoua (00:25:49):
And were the two daughters close to your
Vivianne Silver (00:25:52):
Very, there were, there were the two little sisters, they were very protected. And to this day it saddens me because one of them, ma tante Mimi, is not doing too well. And when I went to see her at Mount Sinai palliative care, I said, tante Mimi, tu es la seule qui se rappelle de moi quand j'etait bebe. She held me in her arms as a baby. So it's very precious. No, there were all the siblings got along.
Lisette Shashoua (00:26:24):
So when Children left, lived with their father [VS: they lived with their father, yeah] And when the mother remarried-
Vivianne Silver (00:26:32):
And when they remarried, it was an open door policy. The second husband was accepting of the whole tribe. And so we would still meet at my grandmothers and my two auntsand it just, it became a happy family. And as a matter of fact, she was a woman ahead of her days, but a caring woman, she even sponsored my late grandfather to come to Canada. So he wouldn't be left alone. So they remained, you know, on good terms. But you're right. Divorced in those days was unheard of. [LS: And she was the one with a piano] with the piano, the nice home, the opera, the piano, the reading, she was quadri lingual. I mean, she spoke Arabic, French, English, Italia. She's she was quite the woman [LS: and the names you are giving me. Looks like your family is from Europe. Schinasi, Abramovitch] Yeah. [LS: can you tell me] that's why my maternal grandmother was born in Odessa, in Odessa, Russia, and then they came to Egypt via Turkey in the Ottoman empire time they opened the doors to the Jews of Europe to have a chance in life. So I think the first stop with the Abramovich was in Turkey, but my paternal grandfather was born in Turkey, in Constantinople. Anyways, after Turkey, she came to Egypt. So yeah, I guess I do have both Ashkenazi and Sephardic background. My maternal grandfather came from Spain. From Spain he came to Cairo to Egypt. [LS: your maternal grandfather from Spain?] From Spain Yeah. [LS: Okay. The name Abramovich is the] is my maternal grandmother's maiden name. Odessa.
Lisette Shashoua (00:28:25):
And Schinasi?
Vivianne Silver (00:28:31):
Schinasi you know, I tried to look it up, but um, I know that there was some Italian, something. I have an Italian passport. [LS: Right, how did you get your Italian passport?] My Italian passport was thanks to the Italian government at the time of the war in Egypt. [LS: which war?] I think the 56 Suez crisis gave the Jews a chance, some Jews to say, if you can somewhat prove, um, that you had Italian ancestry, you can have an Italian passport, which would give you a little more time to sell, to buy, to get your tickets and so on. So, um, there was a big fire in Livorno. A lot of papers were destroyed. So some people that I guess my dad was smart enough. I did not ask questions at 14, 15, except when I looked at my passport, then it said Matilda Schinasi, passaporto Italiano or whatever. So I think he bought our citizenship because the Italian government offered to protect people to allow them to give them a chance to get out.
Vivianne Silver (00:29:44):
I don't think I have Italian ancestry. I'm not sure. I can't prove it one way or the other, except my passport that's in my book is an Italian. I speak Italian. Yeah. My last school was Italian. [overlap] I guess my dad wanted me to be a woman of the world or something. We actually, we had cousins in Torino. That's right. There has to be some Italian blood somewhere, which I'd like to think. So, because I love being in Italy. I just love it. I love the language. [LS: did your dad speak Italian?] Yes. My dad was quadri lingual, quindilingual! He spoke Hebrew, English, French, Italian, and Arabic. My father was quite the man, quite the man. [LS: and your mom spoke?]
Vivianne Silver (00:30:34):
My mom spoke her French. She would not speak Arabic. Um, and learned English here, but French was, she was academicienne in French. Yeah. Her French was super well. Yeah. She actually, when we came to Montreal, she went to the Universite de Montreal to take, you know, to go back to her schooling, to get her BA [LS: wow]. Yeah. Yeah. I it's unbelievable. I can't even fathom how my parents did it. She was in her early forties with three kids and no money. We lived on Dupuis [ph], which was immigrant row at the time. Anyways, voila, c'est la vie.
Lisette Shashoua (00:31:22):
Okay. So the neighborhood you lived in, in Egypt was in, in?
Vivianne Silver (00:31:27):
I wouldn't say prosperous, but it was comfortable. Middle class. It's a suburb of Cairo, which opened up in later years called Heliolpolis. [LS: Yes] The city of sun and a lot of Europeans and the schools and the clubs. And it was sort of an elegant, you know, I remember a big, big alleyway of gardens. Um, there was a palace Le Baron d' Empain, it was one of these um, I would compare it somewhere between Hampstead and West mountain in Montreal, a nice, comfortable suburb. Elegant.
Lisette Shashoua (00:32:05):
And it was mixed.
Vivianne Silver (00:32:07):
It was mixed, but there were a lot of Jewish people, a lot of Jews, who took advantage of the newness, you know, the new apartment building that went up, the little Villa. So on. Pioneers, I mean, Jews are pioneers.
Lisette Shashoua (00:32:22):
And of course the, the dress code was European. All of that dates back to your grandparents. [VS: Yeah] Dress code. [VS: Yeah. Yeah]. Definitely. I saw a picture with a fez.
Vivianne Silver (00:32:33):
Oh, with the tarbush. Yeah. Um, actually it was a statement to the community they lived in because it was a statement of elegance and so on to wear a tarbush. So my paternal grandfather wore it.
Lisette Shashoua (00:32:51):
Okay. Now let's, let's try to see the preparation for leaving now. Can, if you can tell me in 48, what happened to the Jews and then in 56?
Vivianne Silver (00:33:02):
Okay. In 48 was of course the consciousness that the state of Israel was born. A lot of Jews. Okay. Originally from what I know, statistics, there were over 80,000 Jews living in Egypt. About 20,000, lived in Alexandria, the port, and 60,000 plus in Cairo division between Cairo, the city, downtown and Heliopolis. There were a few at Port Said or other little suburbs, but in general, Alexandria Cairo, Heliopolis. After 48, there were some tensions, you know, consciousness. Some people, as I said, were accused of Zionism. You had to prove, listen, I'm not a Zionist. I'm born in Egypt. I contribute. This is my life. They left us alone. That was fine. But then there was,
Lisette Shashoua (00:33:55):
Were there any body killed or
Vivianne Silver (00:33:57):
Yes, apparently, apparently there were some, uh, I can't give you historical. I should really go back to my history books, but I know that there were, according to facts, some people were killed, you know, there were, yes, well accused of es espionage, [LS: but they weren't, they were not] they were not. No. Or they may have been, uh, as again, history has to be a lot more, I can talk about Egypt on a personal level, but I have to do much more research historically because there were some, um, unfair, uh, treatments. And, but there were some that may have had a basis. I don't know. [So that's in 1940 1948, 1952 was the other consciousness that
Lisette Shashoua (00:34:49):
Sorry, I'm going to back up. What about the Alliance schools? What happened to the Alliance Francaise Israelite.
Vivianne Silver (00:34:53):
There were still going, there was, I have friends. Yes, absolutely. There were still Alliance Israelite, Alliance Francaise, schools were still everything continued to the point that in 1952, this is, you know, sometimes I have to put things together. 1952 was the burning of downtown Cairo was the beginning of the nationalization of the country. They overthrew the monarchy King Farouk. And um, Naguib Abde-, uh, Naguib, what's his name Mohammed Naguib came into power and of course was set aside by Nasser. But at the time I do remember vividly downtown Cairo burning because we went up on our roof and where there used to be laundry day on the roof. And you could see downtown Cairo burning.
Lisette Shashoua (00:35:46):
How did that happen?
Vivianne Silver (00:35:48):
They well they- when they were nationalizing the country, people rebelled and put fire to the Shepheard's Hotel, which was, you know, a symbolic of the British rule. Um, other homes, I think Gropee [ph] the, uh, the nice pastry shop was burned. So there was definitely a fire. So 1952, I'd be only 10 years old. So I just remember running up on the roof and all of us watching. And of course being scared. Cause my dad's business was in downtown Cairo. Thank God. It wasn't touched. So that was the beginning of things are changing because a lot of people left, like my maternal grandmother saw the light and after Farouk left she said, and I quote her, if Egypt is no longer, good enough for the King, it's not good enough for us. And that's when she left with her second husband and two daughters and came to Montreal because of the French.
Vivianne Silver (00:36:49):
So, and after, you know, she brought us out. So, but then we lived ,things calmed down and Mohammed, Nasser made it a point to say that Jews were welcome. Things would be okay. Business would continue. We trusted that things would be okay. But then, you know, October 56 was the war over the Suez Canal, Israel, Britain, France. And that's when we knew things would definitely change because people began to leave. Schools were closed. Businesses were nationalized, bank accounts were frozen and that's when, thank God my grandmother sent us all [LS: bank accounts were frozen for how long?] Forever. My father lost everything. We left with 250, deux cent cinquante livres, about 250 pounds per head out of Egypt. [LS: Were you able to sell your property?] No. We just walked out. My mom's sold a few things here and there, but the day we left Egypt.... [tears up] we just walked out of our home and just left everything. Actually the one uncle that was left behind before he was the last one to come, um, try to sell a few things, some jewelry and stuff, but we was just happy to get out. Cause we knew life would never be the same.
Lisette Shashoua (00:38:43):
So you left in,
Vivianne Silver (00:38:46):
I left in February, 1957. So that gave us, like I explained before, because of that Italian passport now I realize, well, what was happening? I mean, before I just knew I had to pack, get my passport, get on a ship. But now when I think back to the pieces of my life, I understand what was happening and what was happening was we were given more time because of the Italian passports.
Lisette Shashoua (00:39:16):
But in spite of that you couldn't get your money out of the bank or sell or property or anything.
Vivianne Silver (00:39:21):
No, because of that being Jewish was the first thing and being Jewish, just, you had to turn a page and to this day, I I'm beyond gratitude to my dad for having that fortitude, that strength to just say, okay, s'aller, les visas sont la, we're leaving. I mean, I've been 42 years old with three kids and a home. I don't know how they did it. And it's well, I mean, they did it and I'm very grateful because I have a wonderful life today. I have a wonderful life, [LS: ok, so tell me now, the preparations of leaving. Okay. So you couldn't take anything with you, but you were able to take your luggage] Yeah. The other thing, yeah, thank you Lisette, for asking the reason my book is called 42 Keys to the Second Exodus, is because again, we were lucky we were able to pack 42 trunks and here is my maternal grandfather of blessed memory. He came to our home, our home and for about it was, it took a good two, three weeks from January, I think December, January to start putting in trunks. And he would Mark every trunk with a number, a number one, les souliers [inaudible] or whatever. And 42 trunks. We left with 42 trunks, which is amazing because some people left with just a suitcase, just an overnight jacket. So we had some possessions.
Lisette Shashoua (00:41:04):
Tell me about your hat, trunk number 11. Okay.
Vivianne Silver (00:41:08):
Pardon me? [LS: Number 11, trunk number 11. Isn't that? The hat of your mom?] Oh, for number 12. My mother's hatbox. Yeah. My mother was a very elegant lady and um, she didn't care so much about dishes and glasses, but her hat box had to come to Canada. And so my grand- [LS: how many hats?] She had a few in there, her fur hats and so on, but there were other hats in other trunks. But, um, speaking of the departure, my paternal grandfather came from Alexandria by train to our home to try to dissuade my dad from leaving. And he said, [pepo] regarde, la vie est belle, sa continue. And at that point I'll never forget. And I can't forgive myself. I opened a mouth to my paternal grandfather that I loved and I said, me laisse le tranquille, il fault qu'on part, tu ne vois pas?
Vivianne Silver (00:42:07):
And he said to me, ikhrassi [ph] a-bint al-kalb [inaudible] in Arabic, when he would be angry, he'd swear to me. And it was such a shocking moment for me because [he too] never swore, I was le petite princesse qui [vener du coeur] and he would come and get me, we'd go for a pastry shop. It was, it was a moment I'd like to forget because you know, he wasn't. But I was protecting my dad. My father was the first son and he was the apple of his father's eyes. I mean, my, [LS: it was his father that came? I think it was the father of your mother] No, no, no. My father, my mother's father was a very quiet nothing. It was my paternal grandfather who came by train to our apartment to try to tell us, please don't leave. Look, things are good. [LS: But then he was the one who marked the suitcases] Yeah, he was still in there in the other room.
Vivianne Silver (00:43:09):
My maternal grandfather is the one who wrote, paternal grandfather [LS: and you brought the dishes too. You brought the dishes with you?] some dishes. Yeah. [LS: What else?] Some, uh, a couple of fur coats that my father bought, um, clothes, clothes. I had a lot of clothes. Some carpets, um, no jewelry. There was no, [LS: any linens? bed linens?] yeah, yeah. There's some tablecloths, some, uh, blankets. I can tell you [LS: en soie?] De la quoi? En soie, oui, en velour, some of the elegant thing, you know, I still have my mother's opera coat. She had a lovely coat that she would wear to go to the opera. I have it. And it was in that suitcase. [LS: a fur coat?] No no, it was just, um, comme une damask [ph[, you know, like [LS: beautiful] Yeah. [sighs] [LS: Well I'm glad you have those souvenirs with you] Some of them, when I closed my mother- my parents' home here, I got rid of a lot of stuff. I had to.
Lisette Shashoua (00:44:22):
So the ultimate triggers for leaving was the 56 war.
Vivianne Silver (00:44:26):
Yeah. Yeah.
Lisette Shashoua (00:44:28):
Did anything happen to any Jewish family or Any persecution or something within that period that made your dad say [claps hands] on y va
Vivianne Silver (00:44:38):
I'm sure it did because I think some people were imprisoned at Tura [ph]. There was a prison from my colleagues, you know, I'm a member of la AJOE- l'association des juifs originaires d'egypte. And um, very often I'm accused, not accused, but sort of because I have happy memories and speak happily of Egypt and so on. I'm not, um, people don't understand why I continue to be in touch with good things because some of them were really, um, apparently the police came to their homes. Some were imprisoned, some families were separated, some were put on trains and planes overnight. Um, so I'm sure all this was happening.
Lisette Shashoua (00:45:23):
You were just happen to be lucky. Yeah. and all this happened before you left
Vivianne Silver (00:45:28):
And all was happening before I left. From October to February, there was definite changes going on.
Lisette Shashoua (00:45:36):
Okay. So this just happened. You were the lucky ones.
Vivianne Silver (00:45:39):
and the synagogue. We couldn't go to synagogue. Oh, we didn't go to synagogue anymore.
Lisette Shashoua (00:45:45):
The schools, any Jewish schools? The Jewish schools were closed or Alliance Francaise, Alliance Israelite?
Vivianne Silver (00:45:47):
for sure was closed. Yeah [sighs]
Lisette Shashoua (00:45:56):
So, okay. So now you left, what about the rest of the community that left after you, you left?
Vivianne Silver (00:46:03):
The only community I'm aware of was the rest of my family, which is my mother's, my mother's siblings, but they all came out. We were all reunited in Montreal by the end of March, my father's family on the other hand, remained behind my grandfather, took sick and, um, it was taking time for us to sponsor them. Um, but my aunt on my dad's, okay. On my mother's side, every single person on my mother's side remained Jewish, married Jewish and had Jewish children on my dad's side, which were a little more elitist family, well educated. Aunts who went to American universities. They married out, one married. I think it was Episcopalian, one converted to Catholicism. Um, they were much more of an open, uh, reflective and open society on my dad's side. Furthermore, there were all over the world. One ended up in Greece, one in the States, one, uh, in London.
Vivianne Silver (00:47:18):
So there were all over the world. The only one that remained in Cairo was my aunt who converted to Catholicism. She was protected because she was Catholic at the time, she had my paternal grandparents live with her in Zamalek, which was a beautiful suburb. But then my grandfather took ill and they couldn't come. And he's the only one of our family to be buried in the El Basatin, the cemetery in Cairo, which unfortunately to this day apparently has been desecrated and pillaged and the marble over there. I try to go when I went back to Egypt to find my grandfather's grave site and I couldn't, I couldn't [LS: couldn't find] no couldn't find it. [LS: Could have been vandalized] for sure. Yeah. [LS: Sorry] Yeah.
Lisette Shashoua (00:48:11):
Um, your aunt that became Catholic. Did you meet her again?
Vivianne Silver (00:48:16):
Did I? She came to Montreal. Yeah. She came to, she finally came to Montreal with my paternal grandmother and they lived here happily ever after.
Lisette Shashoua (00:48:28):
And she died as a Catholic ?
Vivianne Silver (00:48:30):
She's also, everybody passed away. [LS: She passed away as a Catholic] as a Catholic. Yeah. It's a very good question because her son who moved to Vancouver had his parents move in with him. And it's a very delicate question because to this day, I haven't been able to say, Paul, is your mother buried in a Catholic, cemetery or Jewish? Probably next to his father in the Catholic. Although my uncle, my aunt's brother and father's brother at a mall who lived with them in Vancouver is buried in a Jewish cemetery. They respected that.
Lisette Shashoua (00:49:12):
Paul himself you're you're their son is a Catholic.
Vivianne Silver (00:49:17):
Is a Catholic. My cousin is a Catholic, raised Catholic.
Lisette Shashoua (00:49:22):
And who was it? WHo was, who was the, uh, the parents were buried you say in a Jewish cemetery?
Vivianne Silver (00:49:29):
No, his mother's brother and uncle. There were eight children. So when my aunt went to Vancouver, she took with her, her single brother Raymond so he wouldn't be alone in Montreal. But when he died, about five years ago, he was buried in a Jewish cemetery in Vancouver, all over the place [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Lisette Shashoua (00:49:56):
Okay. Now tell me about your immigration, leaving your trip on the boat. Your goodbyes, how many people came to say goodbye to you.
Vivianne Silver (00:50:08):
Okay. The day of our depart, well, we walked out of our home and there was a lineup of our nannies and servants and so on to say goodbye. And there were about five of them, Mohammad, Abdul, Fatima. They just said goodbye. And I just remember in the car turning around and waving, I don't think I realized I was really happening. We were, the adventure was waiting. So we took a train from Cairo to Alexandria and my aunt, Solange, the one who converted, took us there. And the one incident that was very sad is that she had bought my little brother a tricycle and he was so happy peddling at the train station, but then he couldn't take it with him on the train, on the train. So he was crying. That's the beginning of his pain. Anyways, we landed in Alexandria. We- no, by train, we got off the train in Alexandria and a car was waiting for us. We spent one night in a beautiful hotel at that point because we couldn't take our money out. My dad splurged, he got first class tickets for our ship. So we had a suite, two bedrooms and a little living room and so on. That's where the money went. He bought the best. So the first night we ended up at the Burivash [ph] hotel. I Googled it the other day and it shows the history of that hotel. It's no longer. So we spent our last night in Egypt, in Alexandria, Hotel Burivash
Vivianne Silver (00:51:50):
where we used to go in the summer and so on. And it was then we took a car to the port. And that was a very painful day because it's actually the first chapter of my book, our last day in Egypt and a tribute to my paternal grandfather, cause he was from Alexandria. So first the search, the searching of our 42 trunks was a disaster. What happened is being the eldest. I grew up very quickly overnight. My father had the keys of the 42 trunks on a chain and he put it on my neck and he said, Vivi, ouvre valise et remette tout ca or whatever. So whoever came to open a trunk, I had to give him the key and then put it back on. There were searching everything and then search the bags threw out somethings, throw things back in. It was a mess. And of course they took my mom and I in a cabin and searched us and made sure that there was no jewelry hidden, there wasn't.
Vivianne Silver (00:52:57):
I just had a little turquoise ring, which the woman was decent enough to just leave on my finger. I have to this day a turquoise., Anyways. So that was painful watching. That's the first thing I realized, pardon? The [LS: humiliation] humiliation, the invasion. I mean like, this is our personal stuff. How dare you. So that was the first turmoil emotion of a big change in my life. The second one, which is very painful was we were, Oh yeah, we went up on the ship and then the police came to take my mother off the ship. They, they made a mistake. Um, there was another more Moise Levy, or I don't know what the story was. They think it was her father, but it wasn't, they got cleared up and thank God we were all together again, but that was pretty rough. But then standing on the thing to wave goodbye, I saw my grandfather, he couldn't come to the ship before that. He couldn't bear to say goodbye to my father. So I saw him walk down, but he couldn't walk at that point. He got, he was a tall stately, good looking man. And he was just hunched over. And my aunt Solange and my uncle, Raymond were holding him to be able to walk, to say goodbye to my dad. And where was your dad on the boat? He was on the boat. So he came up on the plank... [tears up] and they held each other and say goodbye. That was it. Oh God,
Vivianne Silver (00:54:54):
It's unbelievable. You know, here I am. It's 60 years later. But when there's pain inflicted at such a moment, it stays with you forever. The layers are there to give you comfort and to soothe the pain. But when you peel the layers away, the pain of a child to see her father in pain,stays with you forever. [LS: Did they actually cry?] Yeah. They were both sobbing. It was unbearable. [LS: so you all (sobbed)] We all said goodbye to him. [LS: Yeah. But you were all sobbing] I don't remember sobbing, you know, it's I had to be the strong one. My mom was not a well person. She suffered of bipolar disorder as discovered in Canada. But, um, so I think she remained, she was numb. I think my mom just was in another world and my two brothers were very young. They must have felt something, of course, but I had to be very strong for my dad. So although I felt, I think I did cry, but I wasn't sobbing uncontrollably. Like my dad, I had to just hold on to him and make sure that he knew what he was doing and that we'd be okay. I had to let my grandfather know and my father, that we'd be okay. [LS: How old were you?] 15 [LS: big responsibility]. It was. I said before I grew up overnight, but I'm still a child at heart. What can I tell you? Is that it? [LS: was your Grandmother was with him?] No, no, no. She stayed. She was not that well, a person come to think of it. She stayed in the apartment and Solange and Raymond [walked back then]
Lisette Shashoua (00:57:05):
That he had that he was open minded enough to allow Solange to convert. No?
Vivianne Silver (00:57:12):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, he was a very wealthy man [laughs] that had a big part to it, and he was well established in a very comfortable community in Cairo, well-regarded family. And so the conversion came easily. She wasn't, she was very ecumenical. My aunt Solange, whom I emulated as well. She was one of these women way ahead of her times. And she drove her little MG, and she traveled the world and she was educated. She was actually engaged to a Jewish man in London at some point. But the wealthy Catholic overtook so
Lisette Shashoua (00:57:56):
Well, the, the, the Catholic was the wealthy man, I thought that was your grandfather
Vivianne Silver (00:57:58):
Yeah. Yeah. My grandfather was comfortable [LS: I see], but my uncle by marriage was a very wealthy man, that helped. She liked, she liked nice things [laughs], which is fine. I don't know to this day if she regretted it, but she did respect our Jewish holidays. She would always call me from Vancouver to say Shana Tovah. And she made sure that she was at my son's Bar Mitzvah and my wedding. She respected her, her sush [ph], her background, [LS; but she didn't actually celebrate Shana Tovah. She didn't go]. No, no, no, no. My cousin doesn't know this. She respected her background, but she didn't follow through. [LS: It's nice]. As many of the other aunts of my dad's family, didn't. The Greek one, the Episcopalian. [laughs] It was really an interesting phenomenon, that the more educated they were, the more worldly rather than retain their humble source.
Lisette Shashoua (00:59:08):
Yes. So they, they, they gave it up. The Episcopalian also came to Canada?
Vivianne Silver (00:59:15):
No, she went to Cincinnati, Ohio, [LS: and she didn't] she didn't, as a matter of fact, after my book, there were many repercussions. The particular aunt who lived in Cincinnati called me one day and said, 'how dare you write about Jews of Egypt and your father being Jewish and all that?' I was in shock. I said, 'Tante Lucy, what are you talking about?' She said, 'it was your mother who was Jewish, your father was going to convert.' I said, ''I'm really sorry to tell you, but you've got it all wrong. We're Jews because of my dad'. Anyway, she hung up on me all to say to this day, today, I'm now in touch with her daughter, a professor of art history in Pennsylvania, my cousin, Nancy, who called and she actually gave me the list of the passengers on the SSX [Acorda], which she was researching her roots.
Vivianne Silver (01:00:18):
And she said, you know, ViVi. And now I understand why my mother never went to church with us on Sunday morning. She would always pretend she wasn't well, or she was busy or she [went to], she said, I'm Jewish. I mean, my aunt was, she never converted. So it's to be follow- [LS: Oh, your aunt never converted, she just married] Yeah, she got married to an Ep- but never converted. So my cousin [LS: Even if she does convert, she's still considered Jewish]. Yeah, she was. So she said, I'm still Jewish. No, I'm not still, but I'm Jewish. Nancy. [LS: She's proud of it] I don't know about that. I haven't met her personally. She was a little girl when they came, we have yet to resolve some issues, but at least, um, she's come to terms. You know, she read my book. She really wanted to know about her paternal grandparents. She knew nothing. [LS: And her mother, the Episcopalian, is alive or not anymore?]
Vivianne Silver (01:01:18):
Who's alive? Her mother, no no, she- on my dad's side. As I showed the pictures before all eight children are gone, [LS: yeah but she did call you after the book? She was alive after the book?] Oh yeah, she was alive after. Yeah. My book is 10 years old [LS: and she hung up and that was it you never spoke to her again?] She was just upset that I upset her life. But I told the truth. The truth is my dad was a proud Jew. [LS: This is all the repercussions of being Jewish, being Jewish and accepting that your Judaism or not accepting it] Yeah [overlap] Exactly. But there was another cousin on my mother's side after the book was very happy to reconcile with her late father, as a result of the book. Anyways, there was, I should write a book about the repercussions of my book.
Lisette Shashoua (01:02:12):
Okay. Let's talk about coming to Montreal. How did you settle in Montreal? I Remember you said, okay. Tell me you, you went to New York.
Vivianne Silver (01:02:23):
Yeah. And then the JIAS, the Jewish uh-
Lisette Shashoua (01:02:27):
How did they get in touch with the JIAS?
Vivianne Silver (01:02:30):
It must've been through my grandmother who saw the Hebrew, what was it called? HIAS at the time Hebrew [overlap] So we flew, we flew to Montreal from New York was my first plane ride [LS: And they met you- the JIAS person met and met you] at the boat [LS: from Canada] They came to the boat in Hoboken, put us up in a hotel overnight. And the next day put us on a plane to Montreal. So we landed in Dorval, on that March, whatever it is, 1957, the ground was covered in snow, but I saw nothing of that. I was excited about the snow, because all I could see was my grandmother. I hadn't seen her in five years and I just threw myself into her arms.
Vivianne Silver (01:03:18):
And that was a very happy moment for me. So we lived with her for a week. She lived on Cote Ste-Catherine road in a little apartment. And then they found us the apartment on Dupuis. So for about a week, it was just sort of settling in. [LS: So the apartment was paid for by the JIAS?] No, no, no, no. I think my, my grandmother subsidized part of it or, you know, it was lower housing. It was low housing cost and they put a lot of immigrants on there at a reduced cost. So it was decent apartment had two bedrooms. I slept on a couch in the living room. We had, um, we had shower curtains for curtains in the living room [laughs], but, um, it was okay until I had to go to school. The next well, my mother tried to register me at L'ecole Marie de France, College Marie de France, but because we were Jewish, um, I couldn't go to Catholic school, and the Protestants opened their door.
Vivianne Silver (01:04:27):
They said, okay, come. So I was registered at Northland high school without a word of English. And uh, so I walked in, I was in my, in Cairo, I was two grades ahead, cause thank God I loved learning. And I was accelerated in my studies when I came here in March and I was 15, they put me in grade nine, but because I couldn't speak English, I had to repeat grade nine much to my humiliation. But six months later I was like reading the paper, watching TV and determined to do it. And especially for some of the, some of the young girls were very cruel. They mocked my haircut, my clothes, my whatever, but it put me in touch with a sentiment that helped me to forge ahead, a bit of anger because here I was from a well-to-do middle class family. I'm now an immigrant and I have to be subjected to this humiliation. So some anger and some force that said [claps] I really had to get ahead. And for me, the answer was education. I could thank the little sisters of le couvent notre dame des [inaudible].
Vivianne Silver (01:05:50):
I loved learning and education was my key to my, the rest of my life. And so I learned English within six months and I ended up, um, with a bursary in grade 11 to go to McGill. So I went to McGill for my first year and studied. And then unfortunately my mom got very sick. She had a first nervous breakdown, a major nervous breakdown. And my dad couldn't afford to keep me in school anymore, at McGill. So I switched to Sir George Williams, because if you had a job in the daytime at Sir George, they sponsored your studies at night and that's what happened. Again, education saved, you know, gave me a pass in life. And um, so I became the assistant to the assistant librarian in the daytime. And at night I studied to get my Bachelor.
Lisette Shashoua (01:06:51):
How did you know that you could go to St. George and-
Vivianne Silver (01:06:55):
I didn't, I don't know. I can't, you know, somethings like your destiny is traced and there's an angel that watches over you and brings you to where you have to be at the time. You have to be, it seems to have thankfully happened to me with all the things that happened to me in life somehow I bounced back on my feet and there was a lovely, lovely man. Um, Mr. Warrell [ph] who hired me because I spoke French and English at the time. Anyways, the good thing about Sir, George is where I met my husband. So he was studying at the library and we kind of met. [LS: And can you remind me how you met Gary?] I was carrying a carte [inaudible] because telephone call came and it said an emergency. I was working at the library and a phone call came. And so I made up a sign to walk around as I could such and such. Please come with me. There's an urgent phone call. So he put out his leg while he was studying. He said, 'can I come?' I said, 'but that's not your name'. Anyways. He followed me. And later on, he asked me for a cup of coffee, which I happily went. And that was it. We're married 55 years. 56 years. Yeah. Yeah. Thank God. Yeah, his family was very good to me,
Lisette Shashoua (01:08:25):
Something before. Uh, first of all, we, because we didn't talk about it. You went to New York and you landed in
Vivianne Silver (01:08:33):
In Hoboken,
Lisette Shashoua (01:08:34):
You landed in Hoboken.
Vivianne Silver (01:08:36):
I spent a night in New York and the next day took a plane ended up in Dorval. That was it
Lisette Shashoua (01:08:44):
Okay? Um, now you told me your parents were in love always. Yeah. Can you tell me about it? Were they, how they met and they were in love forever?
Vivianne Silver (01:08:55):
Well, there were physically attractive, they were good looking people. My mother was a beautiful young woman. My dad was a very handsome man and I guess the physical attraction at first, definitely there, but uh, they called each other, she called him endearingly, Peppo from Joseph, Giuseppe, it became Peppo, and my mom was always a ma cherie. Oui Susie ma cherie. And for Shabbat, he would always bring her flowers. There were all these nice little gestures, you know, towards love and respect of each other. You know, [LS: during the nervous breakdown] her nervous breakdown. My father, my father was staunch supporter. He never gave up. He was at that hospital every day and really did the best he could so that she could recover. So at those days were very painful. I was 17 at the time. [LS: Only two years after you arrived] Yeah. [LS: She had that nervous breakdown because of all the changes] maybe the changes of maybe she was diagnosed later as bipolar disorder, but what triggered it off was her brother's death.
Vivianne Silver (01:10:13):
My uncle, her older brother died of a heart attack less than a year after we came to Canada. Yeah. Yeah. So the day of his burial triggered something in my mom. So she had a nervous breakdown and was hospitalized. And in those days, unfortunately, I don't know what they're doing today, but it was the days of electric shocks. So when I would go see her after was not, it was very difficult. I was happy to go back to school. [LS: she was able to recover okay? She was never the same. My mother was never the same after leaving Egypt. She was really, yeah. Her, her life was. [LS: So when you came here, she had to cook. Whereas in Egypt She never did] We had donuts for supper. No, really. She, it was difficult for her. She didn't have help. She didn't money.
Vivianne Silver (01:11:13):
She didn't have the language. It was cold. It was when I think of my mother's life, it was just, I'm shocked that she lived to 85, diff- with some difficulties, but then there was a period when my, my father regained his wealth, he was a wealthy man. At some point, he went into business with Schuelas, the famous Schuela brothers who were schoolmates. He started from zero and built a beautiful business called [inaudible], la construction maritime or something. He went into, um, plywood, you know, he had a big company, La Compagnie Maritime, that's what it was called for 20, 25 years. He'd be he regained it, [LS: but he didn't regain it. He redid- he remade it] rebuilt from scratch. That was my dad, no. [LS: I mean, there's a big difference about the resilience]. He had nothing. Well, what happened is the other thing that I'm thankful for as you could see, there are good people along the way.
Vivianne Silver (01:12:26):
When we landed in Canada, uh, the Pascals [ph] family, you know, of hardware, family, um, opened their doors to the immigrants they hired. They didn't want anybody to have no jobs and not to feed their families. So they would hire people on the floor. So my father, uh, uh, thing, the second week we came, was working at Pascals on Blury [ph] on the floor, opening boxes and whatever. And by the second week, the boss Hyman, [inaudible] Shalom came down and he noticed this young man, you know, good-looking forceful. So he said to him, 'Joe come up with me', took him up to his office. And he became his right hand man within the month. And they were good. They were good to us. [LS: So when did he join the Schuelas?] Three years later, my father couldn't work for someone else. He had to be his own boss. It was not a great idea. He was better off. It would have been better in retrospect to just stay with the Pascals Why? Cause he eventually he lost everything again. Due to illness, other story that other subject for another book [LS: who was ill?] My dad became very ill at the end. [LS: You have to spend, there was no Medicare] He had Medicare, but his health and he lost the business. Yeah. Yeah.
Lisette Shashoua (01:13:56):
Okay. Um, now you preserve your Sephardi heritage?
Lisette Shashoua (01:14:03):
with pride. I'm very proud of that. That's why I'm here. So
Lisette Shashoua (01:14:12):
They don't hear my question. So you've got to say your, your, your
Vivianne Silver (01:14:17):
I retained. I retained my Sephardic roots. Um, in large measure, I have to thank my youngest son, my youngest son, Josh. I don't know how it happened, but years ago he said, ma you don't really talk about the Egyptian roots and the food and stuff. What's you- don't tell us about it. Maybe it was after my book, but he really, he really bought into that. He's, uh, he's very active in the community. He's busy with the Israeli consul, he's in the rapprochement and he's really been my agent for this book, uh, selling it all over the place. Um, and so he really sort of give, prodded me to regain, uh, be in touch with what was always in me, the pride of my Sephardic roots. And, um, and I am from the music at our temple Emmanuel, what we originally came to Spanish and Portuguese, but because of my dad's boss and the temple Emmanuel that burned down in 57, they asked my dad to help rebuild it and so on.
Vivianne Silver (01:15:32):
So we became members of temple Emmanuel, which my husband was a member, anyways. Um, every young kid poor at the Nila [ph] time, there's a man Maurice, uh, Rubin who will sing in Sephardic chant. And that's like, just stirs me back to my, those happy, good roots that I set aside for a while because I had to survive via the Ashkenazi wife and you know, the temple. But, um, my Sephardic roots after my book, um, after a conference in Israel in 19, in 2006, I had only put together a conference of Jews of Egypt all over the world. It was 50 years later. And there again, I was just really in touch with the pride that I have of being a Jew of Sephardic origin.
Lisette Shashoua (01:16:32):
Um, the most important part of your Sephardic background, what is it to you?
Vivianne Silver (01:16:40):
Family life, delicious food. Um, the melodic chance that sometimes Ladino, but sometime, but really, uh, the synagogue life that I had in Egypt was very different than a bit of the formal life behind here at temple. In Egypt. there was, I think the, the family, the family, and the Sephardic, the pride in that
Lisette Shashoua (01:17:10):
Beautiful. Um, what would you describe yourself in terms of your identity, a Canadian, British Jewish Italian. Egyptian, what, what's your identity?
Vivianne Silver (01:17:25):
I'm a child of the world, but I would say first and foremost, a Jew, I'm a Jew of Egyptian roots born in Egypt. I feel good about that. Sephardic roots, um, and very proud to be a Canadian, Canada, I often write my protest letters in the Gazette about really wanting to remain [in] Canada. Probably I'm very grateful cause Canada opened its doors to my family. And of course, Quebec being, having, you know, I feel at home, French, I mean, I'll walk on the street andI don't even think I'll speak in French and Montreal. I mean, these are all the things. My feeling of appartenance is Canada, Quebec, Montreal and being respected. I, I haven't experienced thankfully any antisemitism. Uh, I was the teacher of French in a whole department of French Canadians. I was, I think it was no, there was one other Jewish [Annette Ayyash] of Tunisian background, but I was the only Jew.
Vivianne Silver (01:18:39):
I never, once of all my French Canadian colleagues that I did, I experience antisemitism or disrespect to the contrary- 'Vivianne, je pense que c'est demain Rosh Hashanah!', 'Oui, merci Louise, oui oui oui', and I would bring the honey cake to everybody. So I'm really, I just, I pray, it remains that way. Cause I would hate to have to start over somewhere. You know, the plight of the Jew? Or for my children. I mean, I've had a good life. It's, it's fine. But for my children, I would hope their Judaism, their being Jews would be respected and honored and they can continue their life that way.
Speaker 5 (01:19:25):
Do you consider yourself a refugee or an immigrant? Or migrant, sorry.
Vivianne Silver (01:19:34):
I consider myself a, um, a citoyenne du Canada of immigrant origins. I wasn't a refugee. We came with passports and suitcases and I wasn't a refugee
Lisette Shashoua (01:19:47):
And obviously home to you is
Vivianne Silver (01:19:51):
Home is now my condo [laughs]. Oh my God. Um, it's interesting because I had a lovely, lovely home in Cote- Saint-Luc. We lived there for 37 years with our sons and it came the, as the time comes, of our age to make it easy, I didn't want my children to ever live through what I lived through. I had to close my parents' Home after they both died. That was probably one of the most difficult. It was after my brother died, that I had to close their home. And it took about a year of my life and a lot of pain. So I never wanted my children to go through that. So reluctantly, we sold our home 37 years, um, of 37 years, three years ago, moved to a condo. My husband was very happy initially, but I can say now it'll be three years in a couple of weeks. I'm finally home. I'm home in my little condo, two bedroom condo that overlooks the library and a forest. And I'm content. I'm very grateful. Pardon?
Lisette Shashoua (01:21:03):
Where do you live? Now?
Vivianne Silver (01:21:04):
I live in a condo called the Bellagio. It had to be Italian, um, in Cote-St-Luc, it behind the, uh, library. I can walk to the library. So it's all good. But the reason I analyzed why was so painful for me to close my home is because it's put me in touch again with the pain I had at 15 of closing. We didn't even close it, we just swept out, but this, but I'm fine. It's all good.
Lisette Shashoua (01:21:38):
And home is the country you live in, obviously home is
Vivianne Silver (01:21:43):
Canada. Oh yeah, definitely.
Lisette Shashoua (01:21:45):
The identity you want to pass on to your children.
Vivianne Silver (01:21:50):
Well being proudly Jewish and uh, Canadians and, and probably, you know, they're each one of them loves to say, yeah, my mother was born in Egypt and talk about the food and they love the same kind of food
Lisette Shashoua (01:22:08):
And the languages you speak to them.
Vivianne Silver (01:22:12):
I speak English, we speak English to each other. French. My youngest son now has a companion, French Canadian. So we'll speak French to Isabelle her parents and French. I mean, we, my children are all bilingual. My sons are all bilingual. Pardon?
Lisette Shashoua (01:22:31):
He might like- He would like her to convert or
Vivianne Silver (01:22:34):
No, I, I, I, wouldn't not like her to convert, but I, um, I respect their choice. What's good for them. What's going to work for them in the future. I wouldn't want to leave this planet knowing that my son, um, is unhappy or has, whatever makes them happy and is good for them. I accept and respect.
Lisette Shashoua (01:23:00):
What impact did this migration experience have on your life?
Vivianne Silver (01:23:13):
Um, once I, I cast aside the anger of having lost so much and become from privileged to immigrant. Once I cast aside, once I grew up, I guess, and things started to work out for me. I think the whole immigration sensitized me to, to immigrant life, to people who have to struggle. Have to start over. As a matter of fact, I just finished a book which just blew me over. It was called Go, Went, Gone by Rachel Erpenbeck about the African refugees in Berlin. And what some of these people, I mean, I came with 42 trunk with my family to a family that lived here. My father had a job. We ate, we had a roof over our head. It was good. It put me in touch and recognizing the good that came my way. So I'm grateful. The feeling of gratitude is uppermost, but also my own strength and resilience. Just, um, if I can get through that one, that was a difficult, um, I can't say I get through everything losing my youngest brother. Raymond was probably the most difficult thing I ever experienced. It was the tragedy of my life. Losing my parents is a normal evolution. Never, you know, you lose people you love because of age because of illness. But my youngest brother's life, death was tragic. And that was probably, I didn't think I'd get through that one. It took, it took a lot of love to bring me back.
Lisette Shashoua (01:25:12):
So sorry.
Vivianne Silver (01:25:14):
So that's it. So the whole immigration sensitized me as a human being, as being a citizen of a yeah. Of having had that beautiful roots.
Lisette Shashoua (01:25:27):
Now. What was it like when you went back to Egypt? What was, how long were you there for?
Vivianne Silver (01:25:35):
A couple of weeks. We were lucky in that, the way we planned, it was very smart. We were in Israel and we took a plane from Israel, it was a special tour organized in Israel for Egypt. There was a time of, uh, I think it was after, uh, Sadat let's see, 1998. Of course, after Sadat, of blessed memory. He tried so hard. So, um, we went to Egypt and the airport is now in Heliopolis where I used to live. And so it was a shock. I write about it, actually, my book, what it was like from a, I think a city of 2 million is something like 16 million, the traffic, the noise, the thing. But, um, I can't say it was like coming home. It wasn't home anymore so that I knew, but, um, I did get emotional when I went back to the school, to my apartment, to the Sunday pyramids and all that, um, to the greeting people, Egyptian people, the people, not the politicians, but the people are kind warm, loving.
Vivianne Silver (01:26:48):
So every time they looked at my passport and it says born in Egypt, would say, Masriyah, Hey, welcome. You know, whatever. But the young generation of Egyptians don't know they were Jews. Our guide Muhammad. I could only tell him when we were at the airport and ready to board the plane back to Israel, you know, Mohammed, I'm Jewish, what? Oh yeah. And I lived, well, you know where I lived, he took me to my apartment. [LS: you didn't go in. Were you able to get in?] No, I couldn't. I could have rang the bell, but I didn't. I went up the stairs, third floor, apartment six, our first apartment, not my second, my second big wealthy apartment. I didn't go to, it was that one, but I went into my school, my school. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. [LS: was anybody still around from the nuns?] There was one nun who showed me and it's mostly now a school for Egyptian girls. Who were learning Arabic and English. [LS: And at the time it was] French, French and Arabic, French, it was a French school. Le Couvent Notre Dame des [inaudible]
Lisette Shashoua (01:28:00):
For the French? There were French people in it?
Vivianne Silver (01:28:03):
There were Egyptian girls, Armenian girls. It was girls, girls of wealthy families. [LS: And now it's Egypt. You said] I'm not sure. I really, I can't tell you for a fact. I just know it's not what it was. [LS: ]Was she happy to see you? Yeah, she couldn't believe. I mean, she was in her nineties. She couldn't believe that, she didn't remember much. She may have had amnesia herself. I don't know. Anyway, it was a very emotional time. Cause that, that part was, uh, connected me to what was happy in my life. Yeah. [LS: So that helped you to] To reconcile. I was, I was happy to get back on the plane and leave it behind. It was time to go on. What was interesting though, this, there is a poetic justice when we left and we had to hide one night because of the bombs and we were at my aunt's. Um, there were bombs in Egypt in October 56, Cairo was being bombed by the Israelis. So our last night in Cairo was tough. But our last night in Cairo, my husband and I in 1998, there was poetic justice because the Sheraton Hotel, somebody wanted to be really nice to us. They put us up in the penthouse and this amazingly gorgeous suite that the balcony just went right around and I could see the Nile and my husband got a bit emotional. And he said, [tears up] this is for you, Joseph.
Lisette Shashoua (01:29:52):
Oh, for your dad.
Lisette Shashoua (01:29:58):
But I didn't know. You said in October you left Cairo because there was bombs.
Vivianne Silver (01:30:03):
No, I mean, there were a couple of nights we could stay in Heliopolis cause the airport, it was happening there. And so we had to go to my aunt, the wealthy one in Zamalek, she couldn't even put us up. She had to put us up in a hotel nearby because if she was heberger yehudim, she'd be in trouble.
Lisette Shashoua (01:30:24):
Oh my. Yeah. So you never stayed with her?
Vivianne Silver (01:30:28):
No, only as a child before the war, I would stay with her in her gorgeous apartment.
Lisette Shashoua (01:30:33):
So this was in October 56. How many nights did you stay?
Vivianne Silver (01:30:37):
Probably three, four nights. Before we can go back home. [LS: Then you went back home], back home. And we had to put the blue paper on the windows because there was still at night. We had the blackouts blackouts. How am I going to be able to walk out of here? [laughs]
Lisette Shashoua (01:30:58):
Did you write all this in the book? [VS: Yes] Okay. Okay. Last question. What is the message that you would like to give to anyone who might listen to this interview?
Vivianne Silver (01:31:17):
[sighs] Hmm. There are many, but mostly to be grateful for the life you're given and what you do with your life. Because each human being has the power of choice, ultimately to not allow political events, to define who you are, but to be in touch with the beautiful roots that you have as a human being. And so that's what I would want people to, to, to really think about as a human being, respect yourself, respect where you came from respect and be grateful for no matter what you are, who you are. And I would also want my children to be in touch with the pride of their roots, pride that it's, um, it was worked at, it didn't happen overnight, who I am today, who I wish for them to remember is um the person who worked consciously at her life to make it a good life, um, a meaningful life. And uh, because the lesson you teach is the life you live.
Lisette Shashoua (01:32:44):
That's beautiful. Yeah. I'm just curious, when you said, when you first came to Canada and they put you in, you went to Protestants and they were laughing at your haircut and your clothes. Is it because your haircut was very classy and sophisticated or is it's nothing to do with your being Jewish?
Vivianne Silver (01:33:04):
No, no. It had to do with, I was obviously an immigrant kid. You know, my thing was too long. I wasn't wearing boots at the time. I hadn't bought boots. Um, I think it was just the way I was put together. My aunt Solange. She used to always fight with my mom to say, [habille come il faut], I mean, I would dress in nice clothes, but a little bit old fashioned. It was the old fashioned.
Lisette Shashoua (01:33:35):
And they were wearing jeans here
Vivianne Silver (01:33:38):
Not jeans, they were in tunics, but short little tunics and I adapted, I adapted. It took me six months, but I think I adapted
Lisette Shashoua (01:33:51):
That's beautiful. Thank you very much for a lovely, lovely, lovely.
Vivianne Silver (01:33:55):
Oh boy. I'm exhausted.