Interview date: 6/18/2018

Location: Montreal, Canada

Interviewer: Henry Green

Total time: 1:30:24

Victor Mashaal: Born on September 11th, 1938 in Baghdad, Iraq. Arrived in Tehran, Iran in 1942. Arrived in London in 1950. Arrived in Montreal in 1951. 

[11:26:20] Interviewer: Rolling? This is an interview for Sephardi Voices. It is June the 18th, 2018. We are in Montreal, Canada. My name is Henry Green. I am the interviewer. The interviewee is Victor Mashaal and the cameraman is Hugo Dufort-Proulx. I now stop bowing and can sit in the chair. 

_____________________________________

[11:26:45] Interviewer: What is your full name? 

[11:26:46] Victor Mashaal: Victor Mashaal. 

[11:26:48] Interviewer: And is this your name at birth?

[11:26:50] Victor Mashaal: Yes. 

[11:26:51] Interviewer: And when were you born and where were you born? 

[11:26:54] Victor Mashaal: I was born in Baghdad, Iraq, September 11th, 1938. 

[11:27:00] Interviewer: So first, I just want to say how appreciative Sephardi Voices is of you accepting our invitation to be interviewed. 

[11:27:08] Victor Mashaal: Thank you. My pleasure. 

[11:27:11] Interviewer: So let's begin with, just tell me something about your family background, your grandparents, your parents. 

[11:27:18] Victor Mashaal: Well uh, I come from a, quite a large family. We were seven brothers, one sister. And uh, it was, we always uh...remember my early childhood, we always lived together in the same neighbourhoods, my aunts, uncles. It was like, only maybe half a block away or something like that. [11:27:46] So it was always, everything was, within my early childhood was around the family. Uh, it was uh, now I lived, I was stayed in Iraq until I was four years old. And moved from Iraq to Teheran 1942. And stayed there until 1950. So really my memory in Iraq is very, very uh, short and I don't remember too much. [11:28:18] But in Iran I do remember quite a bit because of the circumstances, the two together and what happened afterwards. The family started to migrate. And uh, so I remember that I, one thing, that I became quite mature for my age because of the circumstances. [11:28:47] My father, early, somewhere around 19 - right after the war - '45, '46 had decided, he really made a big decision at the time that he pretty well gotta move the whole family out of the middle east because he thought that's not a place, for the future. [11:29:12] And he was really quite uh...uh...a person that had a lot of foresight and in spite of the fact that he didn't speak English, he didn't speak French, he only spoke Arabic and a few Hebrew words here and there. [11:29:30] He knew how to pray in Hebrew but that's about it. But he was a very...knowledgeable person. I don't think he had too much formal schooling but he was very knowledgeable in business, as a merchant. He had a very successful business and, at the time, he was like, he was like the head of his family and all the extended family. [11:29:59] And people looked up to him. Had many great friends both Jewish and Muslims uh...but he came to that conclusion early on. And uh, he started sending the brothers, one by one, started with the oldest one to send him to the United-States to go to school after they finished high school and then sent the second one after a year. [11:30:24] And in 1948 they decided maybe they should go to the United-States themselves. And my father and mother, with two of my older brothers uh, they took them and to go to the United-States. On the way, they stopped in Paris to - and spent some time there with some good Iraqi friends that they had. [11:30:56] And then they decided to leave to, the two brothers in Paris to go to school. And they proceed to go to the United-States. Went to the United-States, decided this was a good place to live. They bought a house in New Rochelle, New York, Westchester and he had, at the time, his company in Iran used to import were the...were the distributors for Firestone Tires International, harvester trucks [?]. [11:31:26] And a number of other Rolls-Royce machinery, a number of other com - uh, world-class companies. So he had like a, an office in New York that was run by another Iraqi Jew who was uh, and he would handle the exports from the United-States to the Iranian, to the Iranian company. [11:31:51] Now, in uh, and that's where my story, in a way, begins. Uh...[11:32:04] When my parents left, there was one older brother stayed with me but he left also after a year. So for two years we moved uh, actually no, we didn't move. We stayed in our house, which was a very large house but my uncle and his wife and their children moved to our house basically to take care of me and my younger brother and my younger sister. [11:32:32] At the time I was, I was, I'm talking about 1949, we're talking about, I was 11 years old. My sister was 7 and my younger brother was 4 years old, or 3 years old. Uh...[11:32:53] So in a way like, I became the head of the family at the time. So I really matured for my age quite a bit. Uh...it was a good life, very good life. Very comfortable. As a matter of fact my father, when he left, uh, you know, we had a car, a very big car as a matter of fact, it was a Cadillac at the time with a chauffeur at my back and call. [11:33:24] So that was, that stayed on until 1949, '40 to 1950. In 1950 my father came back to pick us up but then he, he found out he couldn't get a visa back to the US, because at that time the United-States was uh, stopping. They did not want families, that all the family to come to United-States because they were all stateless and you stay there. [11:33:58] So they wouldn't give visas to the whole family, only give visas the part of the family. So when he came out to go back, we couldn't go back. We couldn't go back. Went to London. And uh, there, in London we were with a lot of Iraqi Jews at the time, a lot. What do I mean a lot? Maybe there was 50, 60 looking for places to go. [11:34:24] And we heard about Canada. My father got a lawyer there that was doing that and they got us an immigration visa to go to Canada. And, trust me, my father knew nothing about Canada. I didn't know anything about Canada. The only thing we knew, it was close to the United-States and the idea was to go to Canada and from there, somehow or other, find our way to the United-States. [11:34:51] We came to Canada, we stayed. We stayed and the family was, my father brought the rest of the family. 

[11:35:00] Interviewer: So let me go back and ask some questions. 

[11:35:02] Victor Mashaal: Right, sure, go ahead. 

[11:35:04] Interviewer: Related to that story. So you’re, you're born in '38.

[11:35:08] Victor Mashaal: Yeah. 

[11:35:08] Interviewer: And...your grandparents, what was your maternal grandparents' name? Your mothers parents?

[11:35:14] Victor Mashaal: Yeah, my, yeah, you know, his name was uh, Mio [ph] Daniel. Uh, I never really remembered him that close because he stayed in Baghdad and never came to Teheran. But I've heard a lot of stories about him. That he was a very educated person for the time. [11:35:32] He was certainly the most educated in the family. He knew how to speak a number of languages: French, English uh...Hebrew...Arabic, a number of, and a few more others. I think German he knew how to speak. So he was very educated. 

[11:35:49] Interviewer: And what was his business? Do you know? 

[11:35:51] Victor Mashaal: His business really, he used to work for my father after and uh, as a…doing some office, you know. He was doing my father's office in Baghdad. My father's office was quite large and he used to be their, a manager of some uh...such. 

[11:36:11] Interviewer: And your grandmother's name? His wife?

[11:36:12] Victor Mashaal: the grandmother's name was Farhah [ph]. Her I knew a lot because her, she went to Israel after 1951 and then my mother, she brought her here. She brought her to Canada so I, I, I saw her 'till she died. I think uh...I think she died, I'm not sure when but I would say somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1957, '58, around there. [11:36:43] So I was with her for uh, a number of years. She was living in our house. 

[11:36:49] Interviewer: So do you have some stories you can tell me about her?

[11:36:52] Victor Mashaal: Oh yeah. She was, one thing about her, she was absolutely phenomenal memory. She died about 92. She had a tremendous memory. Uh, like, you would ask her about anything, anyone about the Iraqi Jews and she will tell you. She knows them, she will tell you about people when they were born and she would put the dates according to the Jewish holidays. [11:37:24] A week after, a month before, this or whatever and she knew, and she knew who the parents were like, a lot of people used to ask her because in uh, in the Iraqi tradition family was very important when you got married. So they used to ask her and she would tell you, she would tell who his father was of this person, mother, grandparents, what did they do. Was there any scandal in the family. She knew everything. [11:37:54] And that was really the most phenomenal part about her: how she remembered. She was lucid at the age that she died. 

[11:38:03] Interviewer: So if she died roughly before 1960 and she was in her '90's....

[11:38:07] [overlap] She died later. 

[11:38:09] Victor Mashaal: Later was it?

[11:38:13] [man talking]

[11:38:14] Victor Mashaal: Oh you knew her?

[11:38:16] Man: She died maybe...[overlap] late '60's, early '70's. 

[11:38:22] Interviewer: So if she died say, in say 1970, then that means, an she was about 90...

[11:38:26] Victor Mashaal: More maybe 92, 93. 

[11:38:28] Interviewer: So she was born about 1880. 

[11:38:29] Victor Mashaal: Right. Right. 

[11:38:30] Interviewer: So was...

[11:38:32] Victor Mashaal: Now her and my father were cousins. 

[11:38:35] Interviewer: Ah ha. 

[11:38:35] Victor Mashaal: So my father married the daughter of his cousin. My mother, yeah. 

[11:38:41] Interviewer: And it was a pre-arranged marriage?

[11:38:43] Victor Mashaal: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. All the marriages at that time were pre-arranged, were, not pre-arranged, they were arranged marriages and...a lot of it was within the family. You know, first cousin marriage was quite a bit of first cousin marriages. Now, second, third cousin marriages, very common. 

[11:39:02] Interviewer: So your grandmother, when you uh, uh...

[11:39:08] Victor Mashaal: Can I - water?

 [11:40:45] Interviewer: I was going to ask you, what language did you speak to your grandmother?

[11:40:49] Victor Mashaal: Arabic. Only Arabic. 

[11:40:52] Interviewer: Only Arabic so, so she, what would she do? Would she uh, teach you, would she, if she...did she cook with you or tell you stories?

[11:41:01] Victor Mashaal: Yeah, yeah. She's no, she would uh, look at that time, I mean she was, she was old, I always remember her as an old lady. But she helped cooking, helped my mother cook. She used to cook and uh, you know, she, she pulled her weight around in the, in the house. I mean, she didn't just lay back and...

[11:41:20] Interviewer: Could she read? Was she literate? Could she read?

[11:41:24] Victor Mashaal: No. I don't think she did. I don't remember but she knew how to read, she knew how to read the prayers, the Hebrew prayers, ok. 

[11:41:31] Interviewer: The Hebrew prayers. 

[11:41:32] Victor Mashaal: That she knew. Uh, now my mother was educated, actually, much more than my father because her father was educated. She, she went to the Alliance school as a girl and she was uh, you know, she spoke French and she spoke English, you know. She spoke better French than English but she was quite literate. 

[11:41:56] Interviewer: And your mother's name is?

[11:41:56] Victor Mashaal: Simcha. 

[11:41:57] Interviewer: Simcha, and when was she born?

[11:41:58] Victor Mashaal: She, I'm not so sure but I would say she was born in the early maybe 1905, somewhere around there. 

[11:42:08] Interviewer: And your grandfather, when did he die? Your mother's father?

[11:42:15] Victor Mashaal: My mother's father, I don't remember. 

[11:42:17] Interviewer: So you never met him?

[11:42:17] Victor Mashaal: I never - After we left Baghdad I never saw him.

[11:42:20] Interviewer: He never left Baghdad. 

[11:42:21] Victor Mashaal: No, he never left Baghdad. 

[11:42:22] Interviewer: So when your grandmother came in '51 to Montreal you said...?

[11:42:29] Victor Mashaal: Yeah, she came from Israel to Montreal. 

[11:42:31] Interviewer: And then to - so when she went to Israel she was alone?

[11:42:35] Victor Mashaal: No, she was with her two sons - sorry, no with her son, yeah, two sons. 

[11:42:39] Interviewer: Her two sons and her husband had passed already. 

[11:42:42] Victor Mashaal: That's right. 

[11:42:43] Interviewer: So let's turn now to your, you, that was your mother's, okay, your father's parents. Tell me about your father's parents. 

[11:42:52] Victor Mashaal: My father's, I'm not, first of all, I don't ever remember his father. 

[11:42:57] Interviewer: Do you remember his name?

[11:42:58] Victor Mashaal: [Overlap] Which is my godfather. Heskel [ph]

[11:43:02] Interviewer: Heskel?

[11:43:03] Victor Mashaal: Yeah. 

[11:43:04] Interviewer: And you never met him?

[11:43:05] Victor Mashaal: Never met him. Uh, I slightly remember his mother and I remember her as a very strong individual and she used to rule the family. Tell them what to do, always, she was really a tough uh, person. But I don't remember too long after, you know. She died of my [overlap]

[11:43:26] Interviewer: And what about his wife?

[11:43:28] Victor Mashaal: Whose wife?

[11:43:29] Interviewer: The, your grandmother. 

[11:43:30] Victor Mashaal: Yeah. 

[11:43:31] Interviewer: Oh she was the...

[11:43:32] Victor Mashaal: She was the one, the tough one. 

[11:43:33] Interviewer: She was the tough one. 

[11:43:34] Victor Mashaal: Yeah, yeah. 

[11:43:34] Interviewer: But you don't really...

[11:43:35] Victor Mashaal: No, I don't really remember her too much. 

[11:43:36] Interviewer: [overlap] Did they leave Baghdad at all?

[11:43:38] Victor Mashaal: Sorry? Yeah. Yeah, she wasn't - in Iran, I met her in Iran. 

[11:43:41] Interviewer: You met her in Iran. Did she live with you in Iran?

[11:43:44] Victor Mashaal: Yeah uh, I'm su - I'm not sure if she lived with us or another uh, daughter of hers. 

[11:43:53] Interviewer: So...

[11:43:53] Victor Mashaal: I don't have too much memory of hers. 

[11:43:56] Interviewer: Okay so let's, you leave a four years old. Do you why - so you were born in '38. 1942 is the year after the Farhud and it's the war so why did your father leave? Why - 

[11:44:10] Victor Mashaal: Well I think a lot of it had to do with the Farhud. A to of  - my father left uh, Iraq, he had a business in Iraq and the business kept going and he had a business in Iran, the same business back and forth. So he dec - and we used to go in the summers to go to Iran always, as, when I -

[11:44:30] Interviewer: By car? You would drive there?

[11:44:31] Victor Mashaal: Yeah, yeah, always drive, yeah, yeah. And uh, and in '42 he decided he doesn't want to - he was finished with Iraq. He didn't want to stay in Iraq anymore so he moved to Iran. 

[11:44:45] Interviewer: So he's in Iran. He has the same kind of business where he's doing import, whatever. And he's working with the British? His business...

[11:44:55] Victor Mashaal: His business with Americans and British, yeah. 

[11:44:57] Interviewer: American and British. 

[11:44:58] Victor Mashaal: Right. 

[11:44:59] Interviewer: And he has harvesters and Rolls-Royce whatever. And uh, do you have any idea how he got into this business?

[11:45:07] Victor Mashaal: No, no, he was, he's been in it from Iraq [inaudible] from Iraq. He was always a merchant. Very successful, very, he had many businesses. Really like, he used to import tea at one time, he used to import como - different commodities, whatever. And uh, he was, one of the better-known merchants in Iraq and Iran at that time. 

[11:45:34] Interviewer: So he comes to, you come to, '42, you're there until 1950. So this is a period of, you're four years old to 12 years old. Okay so you have memories of this then. Did you ever learn Farsi?

[11:45:48] Victor Mashaal: Yes. Yes. I used to speak ver - I used to speak Farsi fluently. I still, can get along with Farsi now. 

[11:45:56] Interviewer: And when at home, when you were with your parents, what language did you speak?

[11:45:59] Victor Mashaal: Arabic. Always Arabic but we spoke with the help, the chauffeur, the help, uh, Persian, Farsi. 

[11:46:07] Interviewer: And how did you learn Farsi?

[11:46:08] Victor Mashaal: Farsi just by, from the...

[11:46:09] Interviewer: From the help. 

[11:46:10] Victor Mashaal: Yeah, from the help. 

[11:46:11] Interviewer: And what school did you go to in Teheran?

-[11:46:14] Victor Mashaal: In Teheran I remember I went two schools. One, my first school was St-Lewis School, a Jesuit school. I think I was there for two years. And...

[11:46:25] Interviewer: French-speaking right?

[11:46:26] Victor Mashaal: Hein?

[11:46:26] Interviewer: French-speaking?

[11:46:28] Victor Mashaal: Yeah, Fre- Fre- No, but you know, quite honestly I don't really remember, no, no, it wasn't French. It was English-speaking. 

[11:46:36] Interviewer: It was English-speaking. 

[11:46:36] Victor Mashaal: English-speaking. It was not French-speaking. Uh...

[11:46:39] Interviewer: And a boy's school. Just boys?

[11:46:43] Victor Mashaal: Just boys. Yeah. No. I got a good story about that. 

[11:46:45] Interviewer: Please, share. 

[11:46:46] Victor Mashaal: Uh, you know, talking about the Jesuit school. When I went to MIT uh, you know, went there as a freshman and so on. There was a priest there also as a freshman. I got, you know, I got friends with him, talks, talk with him. Lo and behold, he's from, he's Jesuit, American but uh, lived in, worked in Baghdad. [11:47:19] So I told him, what are you doing here? You know, what...He says, "Well, I'm learning engineering. I'm gonna go back and teach engineering in Baghdad." I think his name was Father Kelly. And uh, you know, we became very, you know, close friends. We sit together in class, whatever, so on. And funny part about it, about 15 years ago I'm talking to an Iraqi who was an engineer, so on who went to...[11:47:47] I told him the story, he says, "You know what? Father Kelly was, came, was when I went, when he went to school, he became the dean of the engineering school in uh, in uh Baghdad. So that's funny.  But anyway, I find I have very good memories of the Jesuit school. Very friendly and the thing I remember, they never really tried to convert or anything. We lived very, very good. [11:48:14] And 25 percent of the kids were Jewish there. Yeah. 

[11:48:19] Interviewer: And the kids that were Jewish were Iraqis?

[11:48:21] Victor Mashaal: Iraqis. Yeah, now, you have to understand, the Iraqis, they came to Teheran, tey didn't mix with the Iranians, with the Iranian Jews. Yeah, they knew them but they really didn't, we did not interact. The Iraqis stayed together and this has been a trait [?] towards all the, a lot you'll find in the early Iraqi migration. They always stayed together. 

 [11:48:49] Interviewer: What neighbourhood were you in in Teheran? Do you remember?

[11:48:51] Victor Mashaal: I don't remember the neighbourhood. Yeah, I remember it was across the street from the Russian Embassy. Uh...

[11:48:57] Interviewer: Did you meet any Mashhadi?

[11:49:00] Victor Mashaal: Any...?

[11:49:01] Interviewer: Mashhadi. 

[11:49:02] Victor Mashaal: Mashhad? No, I didn't, I don't remember I met any Mashhadis but we had, you know, my father he, like I said, he worked, he had partners, Muslims so I met, I met uh, people who were Muslims and there was very, you know, but we never used to interact like children playing together with them. [11:49:23] I was really, we were pretty much sheltered [overlap]

[11:49:25] Interviewer: Iraqis with Iraqis. 

[11:49:26] Victor Mashaal: Iraqis. Then, after two years of Jesuit school, some, they all put an Iraqi school in Teheran, which was basically for Iraqi Jews. And I went there. And I stayed there for two years. 

[11:49:39] Interviewer: And what language did you speak there?

[11:49:41] Victor Mashaal: There, they would teach you English, Arabic and a little bit of French. And it was very heavy on mathematics and it was really a very good school. Very good school, yeah. And I stayed there until grade five. 

[11:50:00] Interviewer: And then?

[11:50:00] Victor Mashaal: And then...my father came, picked us up, I stopped going to school for a year. 

[11:50:05] Interviewer: So your parents leave you for two years. 

[11:50:08] Victor Mashaal: Uh, yeah, about two years. 

[11:50:11] Interviewer: How did you feel about that?

[11:50:13] Victor Mashaal: I really didn't feel uh, you know, it was, it's funny at those times, like I tell my children sometimes, listen, you just took things as they came. You didn't go too deeply into them. You know, it is what it is. [11:50:27] People, that's what they did. Uh, and you did the best you could. Uh, you know, my father, you see my father...there was a problem when he came back and he, we had to leave abruptly. [11:50:46] Because at the time...there...in Iraq they hanged a very prominent...

[11:50:55] Interviewer: Ades. 

[11:50:56] Victor Mashaal: His name Ades, Sabah Ades. Not Sabah, sorry, I forget his name. I'm friendly with his son, I still see his son. Uh, when they hanged him it was on a trumped up charge that he was helping the Israel, Israel. At the time, in Iran when the Americans left after the war, they sold...the camps, whatever was left. [11:51:27] There were tents, trucks, whatever. No armament but uh...

[11:51:31] Interviewer: [overlap] Surplus. 

[11:51:33] Victor Mashaal: And my father was one of the consortiums that bought the camp. And he heard, he was told by people in the government in Iran, and he had quite a bit of connections, that, listen, Iraq wants to extradite him. [11:51:54] For helping sending parts of the camp to Israel. and that's where my father decided he has to leave. So we picked and left and the only place we could get a visa going - went to London. Went to London. We stayed in London. We stayed in London and the rest of the family at that time was all in New York trying to find what to do. [11:52:20] And, again, you never thought about it as a kid. You know, that's what happened, that's what you do. 

[11:52:25] Interviewer: Let me explore this a bit deeper. The uh, there were many different people in different parts of the world that were buying surplus and sending it. So you have a family called Shepard Broad, the Broad family in Miami. And uh, they uh, George Wise who founded Tel Aviv University. They were buying up the surplus and sending it. A family called Shalit [ph] was doing it. Uh, the person who owned the Dan Hotel was doing it, I forget their names. Federmann, if you know the Federmanns in Israel. [11:53:05] So your father was part of a consortium...

[11:53:10] Victor Mashaal: Part of an Iranian consortium that bought the [overlap] the whole American, the whole American...

[11:53:17] Interviewer: But was, do you know if your father was in any way involved in Zionism or Israel? What was - 

[11:53:24] Victor Mashaal: Not really. Look, no. No. [overlap]

[11:53:26] Interviewer: Was he a Zionist?

[11:53:27] Victor Mashaal: No. No, no my father was not a Zionist but he was always uh, you know, he identified with the Jews, helped Jewish people do whatever and whether uh...he had something to do with sending some of the parts to Israel, probably did, yeah. Yeah, why not. You know, it's, uh, he would do it uh, but he's not a, you see in uh...[11:53:55] See this is one thing in, in Iraq I remember as I grew up. Jews never had to...uh, confirm to stress their Jewishness.  They all felt[?] Jews and, you know, it’s' quite intriguing that a very, very small number of Jews, and I'm talking in the forties, fif - that converted. [11:54:23] Very, really almost unheard of. And people, and you say to people, what are you going to all the - people just said no. We're not - you're Jewish, you're Jewish. Your parents Jewish and, by the way, it was unheard of intermarriage. Intermarriage was the worst thing that could befall a family. I mean, total disaster. So really it was like, taken for granted. You're Jewish, you remain Jewish, you are Jewish, period. [11:54:49] So they never really had to thing. They always were interested in Israel, in the formation of Israel. They all, I remember as a kid, uh, listening, they used to, the whole family they used to listen to the radio during the war, the Independence War and they used to have a map of Israel. And they used to put pins with strings as to where the Israeli army is and where the opposing army is, and they used to listen with short-wave radio and move the pins. [11:55:21] They were very, very much interested. Now, some of them were Zionist, they just packed up and left his kids, yeah. Now any man...one thing, the Shah was a very good friend of the Jewish. He allowed a camp that was formed, that was in Teheran that would receive uh, illegal Jews escaping from Iraq to go there. [11:55:53] They would stay in the camp till they can be transported. There was a lot of Iraqi Jews. There were young kids that just went in and said, "I want to go Israel." There are some Iranian Jews. Iranian not so much because Iranians were quite comfortable. See, in Iran, as a kid I don't remember any feeling of antisemitism. [11:56:17] You know, it wasn't the Iranian Muslims were very docile. I mean they, I mean I don't recognize what's happening in Iran now. You know, they were very docile. They weren't really aggressive. You know, the accepted Jews, Jews. You know, there were Muslims. Uh, there was never any problem. So, so that's why, you know, when we grew up, I grew up there and I have good memories of Iran. Beautiful country. [11:56:49] We used to go, and by the way, part of the, because of the camps that he bought my father took one of these big headquarter tents that we used to take in the summer, go up to the mountains and the whole family would go there, sleeps about 40 people, inside the tent. Huge tent. [11:57:07] Uh, with the trucks and the this, carrying supplies. You know, it was a good memory as a, as a child growing up there. This was in 1946, '47. You know. 

[11:57:21] Interviewer: So he would take - so he donated this to the camps so that these people could stay in the tent?

[11:57:28] Victor Mashaal: No, no, no, this was for us. 

[11:57:29] Interviewer: For us. For you. 

[11:57:30] Victor Mashaal: For us, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The whole family would go up. 

[11:57:33] Interviewer: So in other words when it was hot summer you would go up to the mountains [overlap]

[11:57:36] Victor Mashaal: Yeah we go for the mountains for a month but this, and bring the tents and the things -

[11:57:41] Interviewer: And he would drive back and forth to uh, or would he stay with you?

[11:57:45] Victor Mashaal: No, no. He would come in and then go back [overlap] once back for. You know he always had a chauffeur and so on. My uncle who never really worked, he used to, my father used to support him, he used to be in charge of all this. He used to come in and all make sure everybody was having a good time and was set up. The supplies. It was a really a big uh, endeavour. [11:58:05] Like we used to go maybe the whole extended fam - talk, we're talking about 50, 60 people. 

[11:58:10] Interviewer: All Iraqi. 

[11:58:11] Victor Mashaal: Yeah! No, us, just our family. 

[11:58:13] Interviewer: [overlap]

[11:58:15] Victor Mashaal: [overlap] All Iraqi. With the help, with the maids...

[11:58:18] Interviewer: And speak Arabic.

[11:58:19] Victor Mashaal: We spoke it all the time. 

[11:58:21] Interviewer: Now let me just go back to a thing you mentioned. So people, originally would be going, Iraqis would go to Basra and then they go across to Iran. Other ones would come through the Kurdish territory. I mean there were two, they stopped the Basra, that was the easy way. 

[11:58:40] Victor Mashaal: That was in the beginning. 

[11:58:40] Interviewer: That was at the beginning. 

[11:58:41] Victor Mashaal: Right. 

[11:58:41] Interviewer: And then they went up through the Kurdish area. 

[11:58:43] Victor Mashaal: That's right. That one got hard. 

[11:58:44] Interviewer: Did you know any of these people who [overlap]

[11:58:46] Victor Mashaal: Yeah, sure. They're here in Montreal. 

[11:58:48] Interviewer: But in Iran, did you meet any of these people in Iran?

[11:58:50] Victor Mashaal: Oh sure. Sure, sure. When they came over I met, you know, I would see some of them uh, my uncles used to meet and I used to know - yeah. People that they knew. 

[11:58:59] Interviewer: So they, so your uncles, your family was part of the, the uh, the...organization [overlap]

[11:59:08] Victor Mashaal: Not really. There was none - see there was an organization that was set up, I believe, by the Jewish Agency in Teheran. There was a guy, his name Namoggi [ph] I think. He was like in charge of it. He was an Iraqi Jew. And, you see, as Iraqis came in, you know, if they knew, if they knew somebody in Teheran or they uh, there were family, they didn't go to the, to the thing. They stayed at their house. [11:59:36] You know, because they knew [unintelligible]. So depend. The ones that didn't know anyone, and had no relatives, they would be in the camp. 

[11:59:44] Interviewer: I got it. And did you ever visit the camp?

[11:59:48] Victor Mashaal: No, I don't remember. No. 

[11:59:49] Interviewer: So these ones that you did know, did they end up staying at you house? Do you remember anyone ever staying at your house? 

[11:59:55] Victor Mashaal: No. No one, no one stayed at our house but I remember some that came over, and some of them came, by the way, and decided to stay in Teheran. Not everyone, I mean, but the big majority went to Israel. Some of them decided to stay in Teheran, but I met here, like, I mean, I mean, I know of people who went through the Kurdish route and so on, a lot. 

[12:00:16] Interviewer: Do you know a name - Albert Nassim at all?

[12:00:19] Victor Mashaal: Albert Nassim, yes. I know him very well. 

[12:00:22] Interviewer: Do you, we're interviewed him so uh...

[12:00:25] Victor Mashaal: He used to live in Iran. 

[12:00:27] Interviewer: Right, so did you know him when he lived in Teheran?

[12:00:30] Victor Mashaal: Uh, no, I don't remember. 

[12:00:33] Interviewer: Later in, uh...[overlap]

[12:00:34] Victor Mashaal: I met him in London. 

[12:00:36] Interviewer: You met him in London. Okay. 

[12:00:37] Victor Mashaal: On one of my trips as I got older. 

[12:00:41] Interviewer: Right, I'm trying to think of people who I've interviewed who actually went to Teheran like you who you might have ended up going to school with [overlap]

[12:00:49] Victor Mashaal: I knew Albert Nassim, yeah. 

[12:00:50] Interviewer: Okay, so that was later. 

[12:00:51] Victor Mashaal: As a matter of fact, I know Albert Nassim's wife. I think I knew her, I mean I knew the family, I remember the Bahash [ph] family I think. 

[12:00:59] Interviewer: Right, that's right. 

[12:01:00] Victor Mashaal: I remember that family. Yeah. 

[12:01:03] Interviewer: And I think, do you know Victoria or Veronica, the - she's nearly a hundred now, she still lives in New York. Uh...I forget her first name. Anyway, I'm trying, now I'm trying to pull out uh people I've interviewed who, who went to Iran from Iraq. You know, and they ended up coming somewhere. [12:01:25] So tell me about, okay so you went to the schools, you lived in an Iraqi community. What about your home life? Did uh, did you go to synagogue at all in Teheran? Do you remember?

[12:01:38] Victor Mashaal: No. I tell you, in the, the first time I went to synagogue was Iraqi, you see the Iraqis, like I said, didn't want to mix with the, with the Iranian Jews. So if you had any, any, the Iraqi, when they built the Iraqi school they also built a synagogue. So we used to go there. [12:01:59] But really the synagogue was, I mean, we celebrated all the holidays and this probabl - uh, uh...but I don't remember that we had to go to the, we went to the synagogue. I remember next to school, when the synagogue opened, used to uh, we used to go there. 

[12:02:20] Interviewer: And so you went for Shabbat or was it  [overlap]

[12:02:22] Victor Mashaal: We didn't go every Shabbat. Sometimes on Shabbat or...

[12:02:26] Interviewer: You have older brothers. 

[12:02:26] Victor Mashaal: Like, for example, a lot of the you know, bar mitzvahs, not like bra mitzvahs here. Bar mitzvahs there it was, you basically put on the tefillin and that's it. And uh...

[12:02:33] Interviewer: Did you do at the, okay so you had older brothers. 

[12:02:39] Victor Mashaal: Yeah. 

[12:02:39] Interviewer: Okay, so they were bar mitzvahed before you. 

[12:02:41] Victor Mashaal: Yeah. 

[12:02:42] Interviewer: So they had their bar mitzvahs [overlap]

[12:02:42] Victor Mashaal: I don't remember anything special about it. You put on a bar mitzvah, that's it, put on the tefillin. 

[12:02:47] Interviewer: Was it at home or at synagogue?

[12:02:47] Victor Mashaal: At home [inaudible] used to be they get the grandfather sometimes used to a [inaudible] or uncles or something. 

[12:02:57] Interviewer: So who taught you how to do your tefillin? Who taught you? 

[12:03:01] Victor Mashaal: Here. In Canada [overlap]. Because I wasn't 13 until I came here. 

[12:03:06] Interviewer: Okay. What about cooking. Did you have, what kind of food did your mother...

[12:03:09] Victor Mashaal: Only foods, exclusively Iraqi food. 

[12:03:13] Interviewer: And did your mother cook it or did the help cook it? 

[12:03:15] Victor Mashaal: My mother cooked it and she taught the help to cook. 

[12:03:17] Interviewer: And so what foods did you like? Do you remember liking - 

[12:03:20] Victor Mashaal: Oh see, rice was a very important staple, staple. Uh, we don't eat so much potatoes, everything really is around rice. Different stews uh, of course you have the barbecues, the kebabs and so on. 

[12:03:34] Interviewer: Dafina? Things like this?

[12:03:34] Victor Mashaal: Hein?

[12:03:35] Interviewer: Dafina?

[12:03:37] Victor Mashaal: Tahina you mean. No, no, this is Lebanese food. Tahina we never ate tahina as a kid. I ate it after we came here, you know, but it was mostly Lebanese type food. It's not Iraqi. 

[12:03:50] Interviewer: Not Iraqi. Um, Iranian food is a bit different. 

[12:03:55] Victor Mashaal: Iranian is a little bit different. 

[12:03:58] Interviewer: [overlap] But you...

[12:03:59] Victor Mashaal: Also kabob, yeah, there was a difference. There is a distinct difference. 

[12:04:02] Interviewer: Distinct difference. 

[12:04:02] Victor Mashaal: Absolutely. 

[12:04:04] Interviewer: And did um, what about Hebrew? Did you learn any Hebrew when you were -

[12:04:08] Victor Mashaal: Yes. I learned Hebrew in this, in this Iraqi school the Iraqi school was quite good. They taught you Hebrew uh, was very uh, so I came out form that school really speaking a little bit of English and, as a matter of fact, when we went to London my father didn't speak any English. I was his translator and for a whole, I did this for eight months. [12:04:34] I'd go with him everywhere. 

[12:04:38] Interviewer: So did mature. 

[12:04:41] Victor Mashaal: Oh yeah, yeah. Oh remember I really interviewed a nanny while we were there because my younger sister and brother, I think my brother, let's see, it was 1950 and my brother was born in 1946 so four years old. And my sister was like, 6, 7 years old. So we're staying in a hotel so we needed somebody to take care of the kids while my father and I would go. So we, I had to interview the nanny and hired a nanny...for them. 

[12:05:15] Interviewer: When you were back in Teheran, I want to finish some questions from Teheran, were you a member of extracurricular, what was your extracurricular activities?

[12:05:23] Victor Mashaal: Where? In Iran?

[12:05:24] Interviewer: In Iran. Sports clubs? Anything?

[12:05:26] Victor Mashaal: No, no I was too young for that. I had a bicycle uh, you know. 

[12:05:30] Interviewer: [overlap] Were your parents a member of a club or anything?

[12:05:31] Victor Mashaal: No, no. No, in Iran, you see Iraq you had lots of them but in Iran, like I said, they didn't have, they didn't have that. The, they, this was a pretty small community and it was a really very close community and basically everything happened within the community, not for a club or anything like that. 

[12:05:55] Interviewer: So it was really the uh, you lived in this quarter, the Iraqi community [overlap]

[12:06:00] Victor Mashaal: Now mind you, that changed a lot after. 

[12:06:02] Interviewer: After you left. 

[12:06:03] Victor Mashaal: After yeah, in the '60's, '70's. That changed completely. 

[12:06:14] Interviewer: And you're saying that you remember, you were saying the War of Independence and following everything, when Israel was actually created in May 1948, do you remember that day? 

[12:06:26] Victor Mashaal: Absolutely. They uh, it was a big celebration among the Iraqis, Jews that Israel had become a state. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. 

[12:06:35] Interviewer: Was there a party? Was there - do you remember...

[12:06:36] Victor Mashaal: [overlap] No, I mean [overlap] No, not, but there were, no there were people we talked - you know, this would be the subject, the topic of discussion, you know, everywhere I used to remember. The grown-ups, that was the topic of discussion about Israel, what's happening? What's going on? That was the total...

[12:06:57] Interviewer: The centre. 

[12:06:58] Victor Mashaal: Topic of discussion. 

[12:07:01] Interviewer: So you leave because of uh, your father understands that, or had premonitions it's not gonna be good. You go to London. In London he's not working, or is he working? 

[12:07:14] Victor Mashaal: No, in London he's not working but he had and agent that he used to export uh, it used to be called Gampragaganth [ph???]. I don't know if you know that. Is some kind of sap from the trees, it comes in, it's used in the chemical industry. And he used to have an agent in London so we used to go visit and stay, and sit in his office uh, most of the time. 

[12:07:47] Interviewer: How did he make his living then? 

[12:07:49] Victor Mashaal: Oh, my father was well-off. And his business was still running in Iran yeah. 

[12:07:56] Interviewer: And his business in Baghdad had closed down by then?

[12:07:58] Victor Mashaal: Uh, by then yeah, yeah, once the, the '48 came the whole business is gone. Yeah. 

[12:08:05] Interviewer: And so you come to Montreal in 1950. 

[12:08:08] Victor Mashaal: Right. 

[12:08:09] Interviewer: Okay so and...

[12:08:11] Victor Mashaal: 1951. 

[12:08:11] Interviewer: '51. And then what...

[12:08:13] Victor Mashaal: May 15, 1951. 

[12:08:16] Interviewer: And what was that like for you? 

[12:08:18] Victor Mashaal: Uh, I tell you, it was really, we knew very little about Canada. We landed in Quebec City. Absolutely gorgeous. One thing that impressed us, and impressed my father, was so much green. So beautiful. [inaudible] Never head of the winter here.

[12:08:34] Interviewer: [laughs]

[12:08:37] Victor Mashaal: You know, I remember went, my father took a taxi and we started around to look, you know, and uh, Outremont. We love Outremont. It was all green, everything. As a matter of fact we saw, we went to, a story, an anecdote, uh, took a taxi and we see Hotel de Ville. [12:09:00] So my father says, "You know, why are we staying in the Montreal hotel downtown? Why don't we go here? It's a small hotel in a residential neighbourhood." So we went to the Hotel de ville on Côte-Ste-Catherine [inaudible] asking them for a room. So we find out that's the city hall. And as a matter - we ended up buying a house in front of the city hall. [12:09:23] Right across the street. 

[12:09:25] Interviewer: But you, your father did not speak French. 

[12:09:28] Victor Mashaal: No, he didn't speak French, didn't speak English. [12:09:30] Interviewer: He spoke...Arabic and...[overlap] Farsi? 

[12:09:32] Victor Mashaal: Arabic. Farsi. Yeah. 

[12:09:35] Interviewer: So here you come, you speak English. But you know no French. 

[12:09:40] Victor Mashaal: That's right. 

[12:09:40] Interviewer: Was French important or not?

[12:09:42] Victor Mashaal: Yeah, it was important in school. I just learned whatever. 

[12:09:45] Interviewer: What school did you go to?

[12:09:47] Victor Mashaal: It's a funny thing, when I came here...we stayed at the Montreal Hotel that was called Burnside and Peel, around there. And at the time, my father says, "You know Victor, you haven't gone to school for 7, 8 months, you have to start going back to school." find a school that you can go to. So I look around, ask, there's a school called Victoria School on Burnside, which is today Maisonneuve. [12:10:17] So I go there, I go to school, by myself. I meet the principal and ask, you know, I say I'm an immigrant, I just came uh...year, what grade are you in? I'm in, I was in grade five so they put me in grade five. I go there, I sit in grade five. My god, these are little kids I'm with. [12:10:41] I mean, I was uh, you know, I felt like a grown up. This is really ridiculous what's going on. So anyway, I didn't say anything, stayed there for two, three weeks, then we moved out of the hotel and went to a duplex on [inaudible] island, not far from here. Few blocks from here as a matter of fact. [12:11:04] Then I ask about the school there. He says, I own a school which is the - I said, you know, I'm not tell him I'm in grade five, this is ridiculous. I go there, I don't even tell him I was at Victoria School. I say, listen, I just came from uh, immigrant, go through the whole thing. What grade were you in? I told him grade six. Grade six? Okay. Put me in grade six. They put me in grade six and I stayed there for, I guess until end of June. [12:11:31] The promoted me to grade seven. Okay so then we buy the house in Outremont. And one of the reasons, when I went to look around the house with my father, there's a school right next to it. I said, it's fantastic for me to go to school. I'll be living next to the school in a nice area. So we go there. [12:11:53] After we buy the house [inaudible] comes September, find out that the school a high school, not a public school. I'm going to grade seven, they only have grade eight. So I think on what to do . I say, you know what? It worked once, it'll work again. So I go there, I just tell them, I just came from Canada, I'm an immigrant. Yeah, I was in grade eight, I don't know. They put me in grade eight. [12:12:14] And stayed in grade eight, four years, finished school at grade eleven. Went to MIT. That's it. 

[12:12:24] Interviewer: And you were...

[12:12:25] Victor Mashaal: And, you know, the question was, when we were going away, you know, you had no passports, no visas, you just had to, you know, people become, you know they say mother - necessity is the mother of invention. It’s so true. You just did, you know, you didn't sit down and [inaudible] hey, ho, it's unfortunate. No, no. no. [12:12:50] Okay, what, what do we need? Let's find a way how to get it. And that's what it is. This was, you just went and found a way around and nothing stopped you. Always. If this is not allowed, it's no problem, go around the other way, come from another door. Do something and, as a matter of fact, I'll tell you another story. [12:13:12] We were in London, we got Iraqi passports. We still had it. The problem, there was one problem with the Iraqi passport, it was not valid for Canada. Those days you had to write in the passport what countries is valid. So, we going to Canada, while they give us a visa, the passport is not valid so my father decides, you know what? Let's go to the council and maybe give them some money, get a new passport, add to the, add Canada. [12:13:45] To the list. Lo and behold, we're sitting talking, my father sees an inkpot, the [inaudible] animated, he spills the inkpot on the passport. Now the passport is no good anymore. So he tell him, you know, we need a new passport now. The guy was shouting at my father, says, you know, swearing. Finally he decides, okay you get a new passport. [12:14:10] When he decides what to do, you know, to put in what countries you want to go to, you have to be careful, you can't say Canada right away and they say, "What? You, you running away?" So he starts going with Egypt, which is good. Lebanon, Iran, all the countries in the Middle East and then he starts London, Paris and then Canada...[12:14:31] The guy looks. Canada? He said, what are you? Are you Sinbad the Sailor? You going all over the world? what do you need Canada for? "No, you know, we have some friends. Somebody told us there's nice placed to see. I want to show the children. " Okay, he puts Canada in. That's the way things worked. Uh, he paid off a little bit, you use whatever tricks you could use and then, you know, you use it [inaudible] and just moved on. 

 [12:14:57] Interviewer: Your school English school, that you went to?

[12:14:59] Victor Mashaal: Sorry?

[12:15:00] Interviewer: It was an English high school? 

[12:15:01] Victor Mashaal: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but they taught some French and, yeah, it was English high school. Yeah, you had to learn French. In Canada, Montr - Quebec, you had to pass French to get uh, the matrics [ph]. So you learned. 

[12:15:16] Interviewer: So you knew how to speak some French.

[12:15:17] Victor Mashaal: Yeah. Of course, four years, I learned, I learned French. 

[12:15:20] Interviewer: You parents at home, what language did you speak - 

[12:15:22] Victor Mashaal: Arabic. [overlap] Because my father, I told you, he did not speak any...

[12:15:25] Interviewer: And your mother spoke - 

[12:15:26] Victor Mashaal: My mother was only Arabic. [overlap] Only Arabic. As a matter of fact, in our office, we use dot work together, the whole family, among us we spoke Arabic only. 

[12:15:37] Interviewer: The students at your school, you lived in, where did you live? Outremont?

[12:15:42] Victor Mashaal: Outremont. Yeah. 

[12:15:44] Interviewer: The students were what? 25 percent Jewish at the  school?

[12:15:47] Victor Mashaal: No, that school was 90 percent Jewish. 

[12:15:50] Interviewer: 90 percent Jewish. 

[12:15:50] Victor Mashaal: 90 percent was Jewish. And a lot of them were immigrants also. There were...

[12:15:54] Interviewer: Immigrants from where?

[12:15:56] Victor Mashaal: From Europe. 

[12:15:57] Interviewer: From Europe. Holocaust?

[12:16:00] Victor Mashaal: Yeah, yeah there were, there were quite a bit from the, from the, from Europe. 

[12:16:06] Interviewer: Okay, so these students are Ashkenazi? 

[12:16:08] Victor Mashaal: Yes. 

[12:16:08] Interviewer: Your Sephardi. 

[12:16:09] Victor Mashaal: Yes. 

[12:16:09] Interviewer: Or, Babylonian. Were there many Jews like you there?

[12:16:14] Victor Mashaal: No, I was the only one. 

[12:16:15] Interviewer: You were the only one. 

[12:16:16] Victor Mashaal: I was the only one. My brother also was in school and then a few, few years later somebody else came it was, but it was all, there was no Moroccans [overlap]. No. See when we came here, in 1951, there was only one other Iraqi family here. 

[12:16:35] Interviewer: Who was that?

[12:16:36] Victor Mashaal: The Rabi [ph] family. So we met right away and I, the whole social life was among this. And then...people heard that my father was here, people started to come. You know, as people were looking for a place to go, uh, they hear and they go where Iraqi are so they - a lot of people started to migrate in Canada, to Montreal. [12:17:01] And today there's about 2000 Iraqis living in Montreal. 

[12:17:06] Interviewer: So let me try to focus in the '50's. So your father was one of the founding families - 

[12:17:13] Victor Mashaal: [overlap] Yeah, yeah, he was very well-known also in the Iraqi community. 

[12:17:17] Interviewer: So people who would come here would seek him out. 

[12:17:20] Victor Mashaal: That's right. 

[12:17:21] Interviewer: And then would he help them in in some way?

12:17:23] Victor Mashaal: Absolutely. There was a number that came uh, that stayed, you know, at our house we almost always got some people staying in. They would come here, some of them would stay at our house for two, three weeks, a month, till they find a place to live. [12:17:37] And uh, always. Always. Uh...

[12:17:40] Interviewer: And would they, you're here as a child, you're a teenager growing up and they would tell, they would be coming from Baghdad? From Iraq?

[12:17:49] Victor Mashaal: Some of them would come from Baghdad, some of them would come from Iran. Some of them would come from Israel. 

[12:17:54] Interviewer: So some would have gone from Baghdad, from Iraq to Israel or Iran to Israel and then to - okay, would they tell you stories, would you hear stories of families? Of relatives that were back home? Or did you still have relatives in Iraq?

[12:18:11] Victor Mashaal: No, no. By the time we came here we had relatives in [overlap] no. 

[12:18:16] Interviewer:  No relatives. 

[12:18:16] Victor Mashaal: They all left in, in 1950 when the, the Tasrit [ph]. They all left. All my family left. 

[12:18:27] Interviewer: And then [overlap] would come to Israel then. Most would have gone to Israel? 

[12:18:31] Victor Mashaal: Most of them had gone to Israel yeah. And then, two of my uh...one of my brothers uh, sorry, one of my uncles, my uh...my mother got him to come here with when - also when her mother, she brought her mother over. Uh...so they would uh, the other one stayed there, another brother stayed in Israel and another one who was with us in Teheran he came with us here, from Teheran. 

[12:19:01] Interviewer: And your, your...the Iraqi community in Teheran that you knew.

[12:19:09] Victor Mashaal: Yes. 

[12:19:10] Interviewer: Did any of those people come to Montreal?

[12:19:13] Victor Mashaal: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Some of them came to Montreal like my uncle come to Montreal. 

[12:19:19] Interviewer: Friends? Any friends?

[12:19:22] Victor Mashaal: Friends...not really because some of them, see, in the one in Teheran very few Iraqis left Teheran when my father left. They really stayed there and things got really better there so the ones that stayed, stayed there. And then they came here, some of them came after. 

[12:19:46] Interviewer: So your home here is the welcoming home [overlap]

[12:19:50] Victor Mashaal: Yes, it was always...

[12:19:50] Interviewer: But it's really for Babylonian, Iraqi [overlap]

[12:19:53] Victor Mashaal: That's right. 

[12:19:54] Interviewer: And it wasn't really family and relatives...

[12:19:57] Victor Mashaal: No. 

[12:19:57] Interviewer: It was just that you were Iraqi. 

[12:19:58] Victor Mashaal: You see, there's one thing about the Babylonians and the Iraqi Jews. Iraqi Jews had a sense of comm - a sense of community. Like, we could go, I mean, we would go anywhere. We would go to London, go to Australia, go anywhere and someone will tell you, "You know, so and so lives there." So, you know, you call them up , right away they invite you for dinner and this. The Iraqis they, the Iraqis I mean, look, even 'till now, I'm talking about the old Iraqis, not the younger Iraqis, of course. [12:20:25] You know, they're always hanging around together, they uh, uh, you know. I mean take a look this year, the synagogue here. A lot of Iraqis are members in this synagogue. It's not very convenient for them, very few people live around the synagogue. Uh...all of us, but they become members here because that's where the Iraqis are. 

[12:20:47] Interviewer: So when you were in high school, did you become friends with the Ashkenazi? [overlap]

[12:20:50] Victor Mashaal: Yes, yes. Most of, a lot of friends were, as a matter of fact, all of my friends were Ashkenazi’s from...

[12:20:56] Interviewer: And did you go visit their homes?

[12:20:58] Victor Mashaal: Yes, yes. Yes, yes. They, you know, that's funny because our home was a very open home. You know, my house, as a matter of fact at my parents house, we had no keys. Nobody had a key. There were too many people and people coming and the doors were always open. You just walk in. I mean, there was never any idea of fear or uh, you know, there was always somebody in the house. [12:21:22] You know, so many [people]. My friends used to come in the house. I used to be shy when they came because we used to have Persian carpets, oriental carpets and this was like, to me, we were the only ones with Oriental carpets. Everybody else has [boardroom?], you know, nice colours and I used to by shy to bring them to our house to see, you know, that we're different. [12:21:45] But uh, it's funny, but our house was open. We used to have a lot of friends to come in. We used to play cards int eh basement and uh...[overlap]

[12:21:53] Interviewer: Did you play poker? Did you play Shesh Besh? What did you play?

[12:21:57] Victor Mashaal: Oh, no, no. Play with the - we played shesh besh among the Iraqis. The Iraqis always play shesh besh. But the...among the uh, friends, Canadian Ashkenazi friends, no we used to play cards. 

[12:22:10] Interviewer: and were you good at shesh besh?

[12:22:12] Victor Mashaal: Yeah. Yeah. And people get very serious about their shesh besh. 

[12:22:16] Interviewer: They do. And did you gamble with your Iraqi friends?

[12:22:19] Victor Mashaal: Not really. Yeah I played for a little money but uh, it was more of an honour. You know, people get really upset when they lose or something. 

[12:22:29] Interviewer: Do you still play? 

[12:22:30] Victor Mashaal: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I still play once in a while. But I used to play much more. I mean, up ten, fifteen years ago I used to play a lot. 

[12:22:36] Interviewer: Did you teach your kids?

[12:22:37] Victor Mashaal: Yeah, they play, they play but I don't think they got to really like it that much. 

[12:22:44] Interviewer: So you um...

[12:22:46] Victor Mashaal: And the Iraqis, they used to play shesh besh two guys are playing and about 20 guys watching and talking. And this, and...

[12:22:54] Interviewer: It's like a social hour. 

[12:22:55] Victor Mashaal: You get into arguments. 

[12:22:57] Interviewer: And so, you're growing up in the '50's and then in, in Montreal right? 

[12:23:06] Victor Mashaal: Yeah . 

[12:23:06] Interviewer: Came here in '51 and did you experience any antisemitism? There was antisemitism with the French in the '50's. 

[12:23:14] Victor Mashaal: There was but I tell you, we also were quite insulated. Like, Outremont, where I lived, there were a lot of Jewish people living there. So really, we did not interact. I mean, you would see, I remember we used to go up north uh, in my days at St-Sauveur uh, at the Chanteclerc, they used to have signs "No Jews or dogs allowed". [12:23:40] And, you know, but you know what? It never really bothered us. Because when I grew up, it was sticking, you know, like sometimes at the beginning we used to be afraid, we wouldn't say we were Jewish. But then we got more confidence. It didn't really bother us because we took it as, you know, that's what life is all about and, and you have to cope with it. You don't let it bother you. I mean, it says no Jews allowed? So don't go there. The hell with it. I don't even want to go there. [12:24:12] It doesn't really causes me great pain because this was always the case you know, with us, wherever we went you know, you couldn't get a visa. Why didn't we get a visa? Never really sat down and try to find the, the philosophy behind or something. You just didn't get a visa and if you could get in another way, you get it another way. 

[12:24:34] Interviewer: So one of the things your wife was talking about was an Iraqi club. 

[12:24:39] Victor Mashaal: Yes. 

[12:24:40] Interviewer: So I have a question for you. Because you couldn't get into these other places, was that one of the reasons?

[12:24:48] Victor Mashaal: No, no. The Iraqi didn't want to get in. Nobody even think about joining another club. They only wanted to join a club for, with Iraqis. So that was not the reason. The reason was they needed a place, they wanted to meet each other. And my father dec - at that time, he says, you know what? I'm gonna start one. [12:25:10] He bought a house, in Ile Bizard, very nice property. 

[12:25:14] Interviewer: Where is that?

[12:25:15] Victor Mashaal: Ile Bizard. Ile Bizard actually, you go up north here, it's about 20 minute drive from Montreal. 

[12:25:21] Interviewer: Going north. 

[12:25:21] Victor Mashaal: Uh...north-west. 

[12:25:24] Interviewer: Toward [inaudible]?

[12:25:25] Victor Mashaal: No, no, no, to the west. 

[12:25:27] Interviewer: To the west. 

[12:25:28] Victor Mashaal: Yeah, West Island. 

[12:25:29] Interviewer: Oh the West Island. That way, okay. 

[12:25:31] Victor Mashaal: It's an island, beautiful at that time uh, house on the water. And he made it into like a club and uh, he owned it and you would join, I think two dollars a month, you pay, you join and you come with the kids and have a good time, have barbecues, everything. Okay? And...

[12:25:50] Interviewer: What year did he do this? Do you know?

[12:25:53] Victor Mashaal: I tell, you’ll go back...it must have been 19568, around there because, actually, that's where I met my wife, Edna. She went, when [camera shake] they came here, again they did the deal the same thing all the Iraqis do, look around. Who is Iraqi that lives [near?]. Right away, they got in touch with a few and then they became, "Come to the club." they came to the club, she's become friends with my sister, she, you know, we had parties in uh...in the club. [12:26:30] You know and uh, she used to come to the parties, you know, that's how I met her. So it was very nice. It was very nice club and it lasted about...I don't know, about 7 or 8 years. And then when my father died it was a lot of, you know, problems in the club. People - this one wants this, this one wants this. The community got bigger and bigger so it was disbanded. And people joined other clubs. 

[12:27:02] Interviewer: So let me go back then to your uh, to your wife. So you meet your wife through your sister. 

[12:27:06] Victor Mashaal: Yes. 

[12:27:07] Interviewer: your sister's name is? 

[12:27:08] Victor Mashaal: Sue. 

[12:27:10] Interviewer: And uh, and you begin dating her or is it open or closed?

[12:27:15] Victor Mashaal: Well, this is the problem. This is the problem. No, you couldn't date because in the Iraqi tradition it's not proper to go out with girls and boys. So because she was Israeli she was more open and so on so...I got friendly with her but it was always in uh, secret. We didn't let anybody know. I would go more to her house because her parents were quite uh...well they were Israelis. They grew up [inaudible]. 

[12:27:44] Interviewer: So it took a while. 

[12:27:46] Victor Mashaal: Yeah, yeah. 

[12:27:48] Interviewer: And what did your parents think? 

[12:27:48] Victor Mashaal: Well, when I told my parents, you know, that I wanted, we want to get married, my father says fine. You know, she was, you know, , he had not problem. Her father is Iraqi, his mother is Iraqi so, Jewish, what's...there's no problem. 

[12:28:02] Interviewer: What language did you speak to Edna in?

[12:28:04] Victor Mashaal: In English. 

[12:28:05] Interviewer: In English. And did you, did you speak in Arabic with her ever?

[12:28:11] Victor Mashaal: No, she learned Arabic because, when we got married, because my grandmother...it's true, now I remember for - she knew my grandmother, it's true, it was in the '60's. Uh, my grandmother only spoke Arabic and my mother and my father only spoke Arabic so she learned. She learned Arabic. She is quite fluent now in Iraqi Arabic. Jewish Arabic. 

[12:28:34] Interviewer: And would you speak at home, so you would speak with her in Arabic at home? 

[12:28:38] Victor Mashaal: No. Not until now, now we speak English. Sometimes we speak Arabic. Now, with my brothers I only speak Arabic, until now. 

[12:28:47] Interviewer: And what about Arabic music and Arabic culture?

[12:28:50] Victor Mashaal: [overlap] Yeah, yeah, we used to listen to, yeah, we used to listen a lot. We loved the music. Uh, we go to a lot of uh, I mean, here now when the, you had the migration from the Syria and Lebanon here and they started to have Arabic nightclubs and we used, we go there a lot, we used to go. You know. 

[12:29:08] Interviewer: And what about Iran and Farsi? Did that sort of disappear? 

[12:29:11] Victor Mashaal: No, yeah, yeah, that disappeared. That disappeared. 

[12:29:14] Interviewer: Okay, so you get, so you have the club, it's very active. Your father is very active, you get married. Does your home become also a welcoming centre for Iraqis? You and Edna? Does it become a place that...

[12:29:29] Victor Mashaal: Not really, not really, not the same. We [inaudible] we knew a lot but we, look, we had a, I mean, a small apartment, a one-bedroom apartment at the first start and then we went to a bigger one. Uh, but, but we generally, our homes were open. [12:29:51] I mean, uh, the boys always bring the friends to our house and all the, the...friends, whether they were Iraqis, Ashkena - they always felt more welcome uh, less pressure to be in our house than other, than, you know, the gravitate uh...We used to have a lot of parties among Iraqis uh, but we had, Edna and I, we have a lot of Ashkenazi friends. We were really not the norm of the Iraqis my age. 

[12:30:24] Interviewer: Did you have, how many children do you have?

[12:30:28] Victor Mashaal: I have, children two, three. Two boys and a girl. 

[12:30:32] Interviewer: And their names are? 

[12:30:32] Victor Mashaal: Robert, Richard and Joy. 

[12:30:35] Interviewer: And Joy. And uh, did you go to Israel at all? 

[12:30:39] Victor Mashaal: Yes. Because Edna she is born in Israel all her family is there. So we used to go there a lot in the summer. We used to take the kids and go the summer. 

[12:30:49] Interviewer: And you would stop your work or...? 

[12:30:51] Victor Mashaal: No, got there for what? Three, four weeks uh, yeah, I don't know. Just take off for a holiday. 

[12:30:57] Interviewer: What business did you do? 

[12:30:58] Victor Mashaal: Uh, at that time we were in the property business, construction. 

[12:31:02] Interviewer: And now?

[12:31:03] Victor Mashaal: And now more into, we still have properties but investments more, yeah. 

[12:31:09] Interviewer: So when you went to Israel back in, let's say, the '60's, when you were going in the '60's, Israelis didn't speak English. How did you uh, what did you speak?

[12:31:19] Victor Mashaal: Well a lot of them, look, I used to go there, first of all I used to meet my family, speak to them in Arabic. We used to communicate in Arabic and uh, I learned to speak a little bit of Hebrew and I used to get along and uh, uh, and Edna’s family, some of them spoke a little bit of English, other between their Hebrew and my Hebrew their broken English we got along, we all...

[12:31:41] Interviewer: We're in Montreal, you were very connected to an Ashkenazi community. 

[12:31:47] Victor Mashaal: Yes. 

[12:31:47] Interviewer: In Israel, Ashkenazi and Sephardi didn't have much contact. 

[12:31:50] Victor Mashaal: No. Because the reason is there was enough of Sephardics there. You see here, first of all we did it out of necessity. There wasn't that many Iraqi here. But there I mean, the community is so big and they have everything. You have a market, that Tikva market is uh, is Sephar -market and all that. [12:32:14] And then the Moroccans came and but, there was no, and all of them gravitated towards Ramat Gan so the whole, all the neighbours uh, Iraqi. So there was a really any need. Now, and also I suppose, people our age, you know, the interests differ. The Ashkenazi would listen to classical music, Iraqis never listened to classical music. Uh, they loved Arabic music, the Ashkenazi didn't like the Arabic music. [12:32:43] You know it's a cultural thing. Uh...

[12:32:47] Interviewer: What about the Arabic? listening to the Arabic, did they  feel that you should be speaking Hebrew rather than Arabic? Did they...?

[12:32:55] Victor Mashaal: No, no. I don't think - who? Are you talking about?

[12:32:57] Interviewer: Israelis. 

 [12:32:57] Victor Mashaal: Oh the Israeli's yeah, I guess some of them, the Ashkenazis they resented the fact that spoke Arabic but I don't think so that was a problem. But the Iraqis, really, they learned, a lot of them learned to speak Hebrew even though, with a very heavy accent and uh, and they became very successful the Iraqis. [12:33:17] They got integr - I mean, today uh, the Iraqis are integrated and uh, there's but they still...there is, there is a community...of Iraqis. Even today. Okay? I can't say this about the younger ones, younger ones they uh, uh, you know, once you went into the army, you're married, your intermarriage, it's, it doesn't really...[12:33:44] Although, I mean there's a lot of people, young people in Israel today that their parents or their grandparents were Iraqis, they don't feel any - they feel Israeli and, but the Iraqis, still today, the older ones, like when I go, when I go to Israel I know a lot of Iraqis there. 

[12:34:06] Interviewer: So in, so you grew up in the teenage years and then more than that so, from 12 to let's say in your 20's you grew up, you were in Montreal. 

[12:34:16] Victor Mashaal: Yeah. 

[12:34:16] Interviewer: And you had no, did you travel to Israel during this period at all?

[12:34:22] Victor Mashaal: I only started to travel after I got married. Yeah. 

[12:34:25] Interviewer: Okay, so, did you find the Jewish community here in Montreal and the Israeli community different when you went there?

[12:34:34] Victor Mashaal: Yes. You see the Jewish community here, well really the Iraqis were separate. It was hard for the Iraqis to...you know, I, you know, for me it was, I would have young friends and so on, I go - with them but the Iraqi comm - Iraqi Jews it was hard for them to find commonality with the uh...with Ashkenazi Jews here. [12:35:06] So it was, you know, in business or in anything [mic noise] social life is hard [?]. A few did, yeah, a few did but not many really venture to and as its number got bigger they felt, they didn't find the necessity for it. 

[12:35:23] Interviewer: Where in Israel, on the other hand you had a huge...

[12:35:26] Victor Mashaal: Huge, huge. I mean, but there really, uh, there was very little interaction at that time. 

[12:35:34] Interviewer: So, come back to Montreal again. So the club disappears. Do you become a member of, what synagogue do you become a member of? 

[12:35:43] Victor Mashaal: See this is really the thing that united us the more and more got, you see, when we became members  of the Spanish and Portuguese, which was around in the mid-60's. 1964 is when the Iraqis, a lot of the Iraqis decided to join. You know, we used to be members of the Young Israel synagogue but really we had nothing in common with them. [12:36:07] But when we came here there was a lot of Iraqi, there’s a - it became like a some affinity towards this synagogue. 

[12:36:15] Interviewer: Was the rabbi Iraqi here?

[12:36:17] Victor Mashaal: No [overlap] no, no. The rabbi was Ashkenazi Rabbi Frank [ph] but he was very welcoming and so on. And the Ashkenazi was members, they were welcoming. And them the Iraqis decided to make their own high holiday services basically chanting in the traditional Sephardic way. You know. 

[12:36:41] Interviewer: And did, you began to be more active in the synagogue then. 

[12:36:44] Victor Mashaal: Yes. 

[12:36:44] Interviewer: What was your role. Can you tell me [overlap]

[12:36:46] Victor Mashaal: I became active in the early 1900's, 1992, I was president of the synagogue, for two years. 

[12:36:55] Interviewer: But you must have been active before that. 

[12:36:57] Victor Mashaal: Yeah, just about uh, uh, I would say maybe two years before that. Because they asked me to come in and to become active. I joined the board, I joined the executive and uh...

[12:37:11] Interviewer: And uh, you were president for what? Two years?

[12:37:14] Victor Mashaal: Three years. 

[12:37:15] Interviewer: And what happened during your term here? What was your, what you say your accomplishments were?

[12:37:21] Victor Mashaal: Well, the accom - see, basically the, the, the synagogue was run by a few people, you know, it was just, went down from there. And when I came, I basically changed that and become more inclusive, you know. People, you know, had opened up the board to young people, you know, start activities together. [12:37:47] There's a lot of younger people, Iraqis especially got interested, and they joined and uh, and uh, really you have quite a, I mean, this one synagogue it's run by the members. They vote and why [?]. There's no uh, you know, acquired rights. You know, sort of thing and I guess that's the biggest contribution I made to the synagogue and I did a, started raising money to, to renovate the, the synagogue. [12:38:20] The sanctuary and uh, the halls and everything. 

[12:38:26] Interviewer: And when you were president, did more Iraqis then join?

[12:38:29] Victor Mashaal: Yes, yes, yes. Much more. The whole [?] Iraqi was set up, more family [?]. We had a, then they had a, the Iraqis had their own executives. I was also, before that I was, I was the president of the Iraqis also, I just remembered. Yeah, five years before that, the Iraqi community. So we had, you know, collect all the money, we, we run the services, the high holidays [inaudible]. 

[12:38:57] Interviewer: So you had your own minyan kind of thing during the -

[12:38:59] Victor Mashaal: And when I, when I became president I wanted, we...to...to break down this thing to have more of the synagogue because I felt that I each one goes their own way...the viability of the synagogue will go down and so, basically [mic noise] succeeded in getting everybody involved. Listen, there's a central synagogue, that's where you, you have to make sure they have the finances, they have the wherewithal so each one can do whatever they want within the synagogue, not as a separate group. 

[12:39:36] Interviewer: Although there’d be separate minyans for...

[12:39:38] Victor Mashaal: Yeah, we have separate minyans, that's fine but not, you don't think of yourself, "Hey, I don't have anything to do with the Spanish I'm na-na-na-na." You're the Spanish but you're the Iraqi group. 

[12:39:49] Interviewer: Within. 

[12:39:49] Victor Mashaal: The Lebanese minyan, you're the Ashkenazi minion or the Moroccan minyan. You know, because first of all, you couldn't accommodate everybody in the, in the sanctuary and uh...

[12:40:01] Interviewer: So let's just sort of try to understand this from your grand - your father starts an Iraqi club. Right? And then here you are, 20 years later, if you want to put it in that way, head of the Iraqi group and then you become president. So what do you think your father taught you?

[12:40:19] Victor Mashaal: Oh uh...look, listen, one thing uh, my father taught us is the sense of family. We have a sense of family that you, you always uh, you know, take care of your family. You always uh, be mindful of the community that uh, uh, look uh, you know...[12:40:43] To be hardworking and one thing - one thing we really learned if anything I got from my father, listen...nothing is im - just - you know, you know, through life you get a lot of road blocks. You just, you know, don't let it bother you. just keep on moving. You know. I guess a lot of the Jews had that. And that's why you see really, basically after all that happened with the Jews, all the upheaval, they just picked up, went somewhere else and life started again. [12:41:13] And they didn't let it uh...bother - not like you get, I mean, take a look at what is happening in the Middle East there, completely the opposite. They're still thinking about the loss of the Israeli war, I mean, my god, 70 years you'd think, get over it already. Move on. You know, that's the difference between the Jews and the Iraq community in a certain way, that you, you come to Canada, you become Canadian. [12:41:41] And you teach your kids, you have to speak French? You speak French. Speak English. Whatever. You know, just work hard. do, you know, and they all became good Canadians, good Americans, good British. Uh..you go and uh, and do it. But always mindful that you're Jewish. Don't forget that you're Jewish. That, do not forget that, the history of the Jews and always be vigilant. [12:42:15] As to...what's around you. You know. Sooner or later you may be in trouble, you know, don't let it, you know, you gotta face it right through and uh, uh...it's not something that you put under the cover or something and, and don’t pretend it doesn't happen. It is, it is happening. It is what it is and you just - have to make sure you deal with it. 

[12:42:42] Interviewer: So when you, in this period of time, so you're learning your lessons of your father and, Morocco becomes independent and uh, Tunisia and Algeria in '62 and many different immigrants, Jewish immigrant groups come in. And the Iraqis now aren't the majority, it's all these North Africans. What's your relationship to these communities? 

[12:43:05] Victor Mashaal: Nothing. I don't think anything different. They're Jews. I mean, my son [overlap] two sons married Moroccans uh...

[12:43:13] Interviewer: did you have connection with this community?

[12:43:15] Victor Mashaal: No, not really, I mean, connections through the marriage of my children but...

[12:43:20] Interviewer: Were there...[overlap] For example, you're saying that when the Iraqis came your father is the meeting house and then you had this kind of connection. 

[12:43:32] Victor Mashaal: No, that did not extend to the [overlap] No, no, no, no. The Moroccans did their own thing. 

[12:43:39] Interviewer: So each one did their own thing. And when you became president of the synagogue though, you did have Moroccans [overlap]

[12:43:44] Victor Mashaal: Absolutely, abs- you know that you made sure that the board is comprised, it has, it has a presentation of every group that's in there. That uh, that's - and by the way, somewhere along the line in the, after that Iraqi club disbanded then there was a problem with the older, you know, the Iraqi. What do they do? Then I got the idea that once I went to visit the Lord Redding Club. This was a yacht club and they were not doing so well so I said, "Listen." I talked to them, "Why don't you bring in the Iraqis to join? They're not sailors. They're not into sailing. They'll use the facilities as a social club." [12:44:27] And they've agree - and they agreed. And that became an Iraqi club. Yeah, and uh, I would say about a hun - over a hundred Iraqi families joined there. And they still are. They still go, some of them. Not the younger ones, they younger ones dropped out but we had many good years at the Lord Redding Club. 

[12:44:53] Interviewer: And what about like, uh the St-Stevens around the corner here? What's it called? Where [inaudible].

[12:45:02] Victor Mashaal: No, Mount Stephen downtown. 

[12:45:05] Victor Mashaal: Was that something that...

[12:45:06] Victor Mashaal: Yeah, I'll tell you something, no. You see, those clubs, a lot of them, did not allow Jews. I'll tell you a story. In 1962 we built a building on a land that was owned by the St-James’s Club. Now there was three, there’s clubs here, I don't know if you know them. Mount-Royal Club. The St-James Club. Mount Stephen Club. These were the categories started. Now...

[12:45:34] Interviewer: These were white, English-speaking clubs. 

[12:45:35] Victor Mashaal: White, English-speaking [overlap] clubs. WASP clubs. Now, we owned, they owned, we built a building and the first three floors was for St-James Club and they used to pay us rent. They didn't allow any Jews there. We owned the place but they don't allow Jews there. 

[12:45:53] Interviewer: [laughs] That's a great story. 

[12:45:55] Victor Mashaal: You know, that was, that was the, you know, did it bother us? Nah! Listen, it is what it is. You know, we're not, Mount-Royal Club never allowed Jews. Uh...the St-Stephen Club same thing. And they all uh, you know financially they got problems. I mean, take a look at the gold clubs. A lot of golf clubs didn't allow any Jews. And uh...

[12:46:22] Interviewer: Things change. Things change. Did, let me ask you, politically a question. You're here in 1970 when the assassination happens and then '76 Lévesque comes to power. As a Jew in Montreal, as an Iraqi Jew, did you have thoughts about things changing?

[12:46:43] Victor Mashaal: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that was really very traumatic. And we had to make a decision. Uh...and for a while I was thinking maybe Edna and I would move to California. I didn't but, you know, we were too close to the family and somehow [inaudible]. We made a...you know, and we didn't know which way it was going. We liked the life here but we made a decision that the way we would deal with it, financially especially what's happening. Nobody knew what was going on. [12:47:17] Is that we would grow outside Quebec. That we'd continue doing the business that we're doing in Quebec, we had to be, but to push for growth outside. And it eventually did very well for us. Today, maybe only 10 percent of our business is in Quebec. It's all over America, we have - other parts of the world. [12:47:41] You know, so really uh, we used to look at it, look what's our alternative? Our alternative is to move. Move then but move, you like the place, you like the people and all the - it's not a, but would you want to really, look...The question was if Quebec was to become independent, to become French, it's an unknown. I mean, we came here because we wanted a big country. [12:48:10] Uh...you know, stable country, what do we do now? Going backwards to a little country? What's gonna happen, you know, are we gonna get back to a Middle East type of thing. So it's really, it's a lot of anxiety from that point of view. [12:48:24] Not so much really, politically we did [inaudible] who cares? You know, that wasn't really the problem. The problem was really uh, are we gonna live in a fractured type of a political system? Uh and what's gonna happen to our uh, business. How, you know, where do our children work? What do they do? So listen, what's wrong? Stay here and go and invest out - go outside. 

[12:48:54] Interviewer: So here's another question. You were 13 years old and you left Teheran, right? And so your life was upset in whatever way, new country, you didn't know anyone. Okay, here it is 25 years later, your children are more or less the same age. Did you think about that your life was like, repeating itself in a different way? 

[12:49:20] Victor Mashaal: No, no, you know what? I never really started to, you know, nev - it was, the question is- listen, this is a problem, it's a real problem. It is what it is. what are we gonna do about it? I mean, you look at your options. what are the options? You move out. You stay here. You stay here, you gotta figure out how you gonna secure your place, financially. And that's what it is. I mean, it never, it's not a...

[12:49:48] Interviewer: It was a practical…

[12:49:49] Victor Mashaal: Yeah, you know [overlap] there's no great philosophical thinking behind it. Am I, am I with this or against this? Listen, listen, I mean, uh, yeah some French were antiemetic but that was a long time ago, you know, there were people antiemetic all over the world so what else is new? I mean the English were very proper. They didn't allow you here, they didn't allow you there so it was the same thing. So there's not, there's no question is this one better than the other. They are all, you know, we're Jews and they want to live with, we want to live with, you know, peacefully with anybody. We just, we just gotta be concerned that it doesn't, hey, some, some of the problems don't start to come back to haunt us like other places. [12:50:34] Because, you know, you don't want to move. You know. So...

[12:50:38] Interviewer: Did Edna and you ever talk about going to Israel?

[12:50:40] Victor Mashaal: Israel? Never. No. No because I tell you why we never talked about going to Israel because of the family and we're here, we're established, the kids are here so, by the way, now we spend almost four, five months a year in Israel. So I like Israel very much as a nice place to go. [12:50:57] Horrendous place to do business. At least for me. But uh, but uh, wonderful place to, very cultured, everything. Even though we do have a lot of investments in Israel, in the high-tech uh, section. But, but that's uh, you know, uh...

[12:51:17] Interviewer: So let me ask some final kinds of questions. You’ve been very kind with your time. Uh, how do you preserve your Iraqi heritage now?

[12:51:27] Victor Mashaal: How?

[12:51:28] Interviewer: How, yeah. How do you do it now? 

[12:51:30] Victor Mashaal: I don't, I mean, we don't do it consciously but I tell you something. Like, like one, the number one, you know, I speak Arabic among ourselves. The problem is really with the younger generation. I mean, they know, we always talk stories and, and the funny part about like, even my friends, my kids who have a lot of uh...friends who are Christian, Jewish, whatever. [12:52:03] They're, they're quite friendly with their cousins uh, the began - this friendship came even now, after they got adult and they, other Iraqis they, they became, there is an affinity. There is something so they, they know each other. So even though they have uh, lots of friend in the, from the regular Canadian community, but the, uh, but they always are, you know we always attend uh...Iraqi functions. [12:52:36] We go to weddings, you know, you get invited to a lot of Iraqi weddings and so on. You go there and this, so they get, you know, it's a losing cause though. When you think about it really, 20, 50 years from now I don't think anybody will speak Arabic or have, just like, I guess the, the people who came from Poland. Great-great-grandchildren. Who knows? Or Italians, have an Italian name they don't even speak Italian. [12:53:04] But that's uh, that's what it is. 

[12:53:08] Interviewer: So is it the...

[12:53:08] Victor Mashaal: But up to now we...

[12:53:09] Interviewer: Is it the food? I mean the...

[12:53:12] Victor Mashaal: Yeah. One thing I tell you. Till now, Edna...90 percent of the food is Iraqi food. That we eat at home. It's uh...so, you know, the...all the family, the grandchildren now, they all love the Iraqi food. They come to eat, we have Shabbat dinner and they eat and they always want the Iraqi food. It's good food! I mean it's not uh, uh healthy food but uh, that's how, that's you keep tradition. [12:53:45] And they come, they come here like uh, and services are conducted in a Sephardic way and uh, and they're definitely aware that we are Sephardic. Not that we are better or worse, we are what we are. 

[12:54:01] Interviewer: Do you consider yourself a refugee?

[12:54:04] Victor Mashaal: Never, never. You see, this is what is the problem. The Jews never see themselves - you know, they came here, we owned the place. That's it. It's ours. You come to Canada, you're Canadian. You go to Australia, you're Australian. I mean, it's not, I mean this thing of uh, you know, refugees. Refugees...never. [12:54:25] I tell you something, after one year we are here, one year, two years we are here, I'm not a refugee. I'm a Canadian. You know. And uh, never. 

[12:54:39] Interviewer: Do you think that uh, if you had stayed in Iran your life would be very different?

[12:54:46] Victor Mashaal: Absolutely. Absolutely. Uh, life would have been different. I think our values would have been different. You know because really, you know, in Iran there was a period of time people made a lot of money and...they got, I think somewhat, some of them became corrupted in their way, not corrupted in which way, in the moral ways and their thing. [12:55:10] You know it's - they're very hard, a lot of the people that came from Iran, especially the wealthy, it was hard for them to do business here. To come here. Because here you have to pay taxes, you have to do things. You know, they are not used to these things. So really you would have been diff- yeah, we would have been different. How different? I don't know. [12:55:30] Certainly if we would have - we never would have stayed until now, that's for sure. 

[12:55:34] Interviewer: The revolution would have [overlap]. 

[12:55:35] Victor Mashaal: We would have gone out anyway. 

[12:55:38] Interviewer: But it wouldn't have been different leaving [overlap]

[12:55:40] Victor Mashaal: You know, it really is quite ni - for me especially coming at 12, 13 years old. You know, I grew up here. I'm not a, I mean to come here when I'm 30, 40 it's hard. 

[12:55:53] Interviewer: It's very different. So let me ask you one last question that is: people will listen to this interview, the National Library of Israel will have it and uh, what message would you want to give them?

[12:56:06] Victor Mashaal: Really, honestly the message is very simple. You know, in life, you know, and this is really the contrast between the Arabs and the Jews. You know, I was looking at the, at the film yesterday and I said, really, can you come to think of it. What logical person would have done what happened? [12:56:28] If they would, they were, the Muslims were living good with the Jews in the 1930's. Why didn't you just stay there? Where would Iraq be today if there was no problem with the Jews, if they Jew would have lived there [inaudible]. Probably Iraq would have been one of the wealthiest countries in the world today. Today, what is it now? 50 million people, each one at the throat of the other, daily suicide bombings, 50, 60 people getting killed. [12:56:57] The country is thrown apart for what? For what? And nobody knows what is the solution. You know, and the Jews, one thing they have, and we Iraqi Jews and others, I'm not saying we're better than anyone, Iraqis just...What message? Listen, move on. Move on. Look, things happen, you can't live your life in the past. [12:57:24] Don't forget the past but move on to the future. Always be aware of what happened but do not let it hamper your life as you move on. Don't ever use your past as an excuse. And that's the problem. People use the past as an excuse. There is no excuse. 

[12:57:44] Interviewer: Thank you so, so much. 

[12:57:47] Victor Mashaal: You're welcome. Thank you. 

[12:57:50] Interviewer: That was a great interview.