Sylvain Abitbol
Cleaned by: Julia Pappo
Transcribed by: Rev
Interview date: April 18th, 2014
Interviewer: Henry Green
Location: Montreal
Total time: 1:35:50
Sylvain Abitbol: Born on June 1st, 1949 in Casablanca, Morocco. Arrived in Montreal in 1968.
Henry Green (00:00:00):
So, um, what is your full name?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:00:03):
Sylvain Abitbol.
Henry Green (00:00:05):
And what was your name at birth?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:00:07):
Sylvain Abitbol.
Henry Green (00:00:08):
And where were ... when were you born?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:00:11):
In, uh ... on June 1, 1949.
Henry Green (00:00:14):
And, uh, where were you born?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:00:16):
In Casablanca, Morocco.
Henry Green (00:00:18):
So, first, let me say how, uh, much we appreciate Sephardi Voices being able to interview you. Thank you.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:00:24):
Pleasure.
Henry Green (00:00:25):
So, uh, the way I'd like to begin is if you could tell me something about your family's background, early memories.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:00:33):
Well, my father was born in a tiny city of Azemmour, which was the, uh, the host of a very religious and observant community. My grandfather, whose Hebrew name I also wear, which is [inaudible 00:00:49], uh, was the head of the, the Jewish community in Azemmour . My father left school when he was 13 because his father passed away and he had to work for the family. And he was commuting from, uh, Azemmour to Casablanca, uh, every week. So he'd spend the week in Casablanca working and go back to, uh, Azemmour for Shabbat.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:01:15):
There were, uh, five, uh, brothers and sisters in his family. My mother, [inaudible 00:01:25], was born in Casablanca. She is one of 12 brothers and sisters who were all, uh, born in Casablanca. They lost their father when he was very young and she became the, uh, the mother and the father for a lot of her siblings.
Henry Green (00:01:47):
Did, did, um ... your father's family, um ... were they a long-living family in Azemmour or had they come there more recently or ... your grandfather.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:02:00):
No, they, they had been a long-living family in that part of the country. Uh, must have gone back many, many generations.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:02:08):
On my mother's side, Casablanca is a rather, relatively recent city. It was created at the, uh, at the end of the 19th century, I think. So, uh, the family probably may have come from Marrakesh originally. But my mother and my grandmother were born in Casablanca.
Henry Green (00:02:28):
And your, your, uh, paternal parents, um, they ... what did your grandfather do?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:02:36):
Well, he ... I don't know. I don't know. All I know he was the sheik of the community. Uh, you know, they lived a very, very simple life. I remember my father telling us about the big house they were living in. And when we went to see it actually, it was a tiny, tiny, tiny home. So (laughs) it's a small, uh, town by the, by the ocean. Uh, which also had a very known Rabbi [inaudible 00:03:13], who would perform miracles. And his name was Habbib [inaudible 00:03:18], meaning the rabbi who was doing, uh, miracles.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:03:24):
And it's, uh, it's interesting, because I went back to Morocco about 10 years ago, and I went to, to see the grave of the rabbi, of the [inaudible 00:03:32], and it was taken care of by a Muslim. And I was really touched by that because no ... for him, it was like a ... [inaudible 00:03:48] regardless of his religion. So ...
Henry Green (00:03:52):
Did, did, uh ... do you have memories of being with your grandfather?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:03:56):
No, I ... no, I never saw him. He died before I was born. But I remember my grandmother on both sides. I never met my, uh, both my grandfathers.
Henry Green (00:04:07):
And what kind of memories do you have with your grandmother?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:04:09):
You know, they, they didn't speak French. I was educated in French. They spoke only Arabic. So the communication was not easy. Besides, the, the, uh, the natural affection that one feels for a grandmother and the love that you can see through the eyes and the touching, uh, and the food. But it was, it was mostly a, um, peaceful kind of affection. A lot of affection that you feel from the grandmother.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:04:49):
On my mother's ... on my father's side, uh, she was living with one of my father's sisters who was not married. And every Shabbat after school, we used to stop and he would do the Kiddush. I would see her. (quietly crying)
Sylvain Abitbol (00:05:04):
We have to reset.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:05:31):
And that's ... and then they left for Israel.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:05:33):
Uh, on my grandmother's side- on my mother's side, um, my mother was, was taking care of her, because like I said, her husband, my grandfather passed away when he was very young. Before, before even my ... before my mother could [inaudible 00:05:49]. So, uh, she was taking care of her quite extensively. One of her sisters also passed away. Both parents passed away so the family took care of the kids. So, two of the kids lived with my grandmother, one of the kids lived with us. Uh, so, we used to see my grandmother quite often.
Henry Green (00:06:16):
Did you, uh ... did your grandmother take you for walks or did she-
Sylvain Abitbol (00:06:18):
No. I don't remember that, no.
Henry Green (00:06:18):
Did you ... did she just give you candy-
Sylvain Abitbol (00:06:22):
Candy, yes. Candies, uh ... my ... both my grandmothers would, uh, fix my clothes, uh, buy me stuff or take me to the market. Yes, you know what, they would take me to the market.
Henry Green (00:06:42):
What do you remember about going to the market?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:06:44):
Just holding her hand and walking.
Henry Green (00:06:47):
And in the market, uh, would she, uh, bargain for things?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:06:51):
Yeah, yeah. She was very selective in, uh, what kind of fruit to buy, what kind of fish to buy, uh, arguing with the, uh, the, uh, the merchants. Uh, [inaudible 00:07:02] I mean, but really colorful, a lot of smells, uh, everything done in a very, very friendly manner.
Henry Green (00:07:14):
Would your grandmother ever stop for a coffee?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:07:20):
No. No.
Henry Green (00:07:20):
Did you ever want to stop for a coffee?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:07:22):
No. I don't remember that, no.
Henry Green (00:07:26):
How did your, uh, parents meet?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:07:30):
Actually, my, uh, my father's brother, uh, got married. And my father married his wife's sister. So he met my mother through his brother's wife. So two brothers married two sisters.
Henry Green (00:07:50):
And, and, uh, what year was that?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:07:55):
I don't know. I don't recall.
Henry Green (00:07:57):
So, the, the, um ... your parents were married by World War II or no?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:08:04):
Oh, yes. Because I remember them telling me about the rationing and the difficulties of life during the war, the presence of the Gestapo. Yeah.
Henry Green (00:08:16):
So they experienced those things under the Vichy government?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:08:19):
Yeah. Correct.
Henry Green (00:08:20):
In which they shared stories with you.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:08:21):
Correct.
Henry Green (00:08:22):
And did they have any personal stories in which, uh, life was difficult for them?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:08:27):
Yeah, well, they were talking about how difficult it was to, to, to do weddings and bat mitzvahs and where sugar would be, uh, rationed. Uh, the fear of the Germans. Uh, and the fact that the king was not ... was in exile. That that specific king at the time would be a protector of the Jews.
Henry Green (00:08:55):
And what was your father's profession?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:08:58):
He was a manufacturer's agent of, uh, cosmetic accessories, uh, from France. So his suppliers were French companies and he was selling hair ornaments, uh, brushes, uh, perfume, uh, all these kind of things.
Henry Green (00:09:20):
Your father's first language was what?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:09:24):
Arabic when he grew up and then French from school.
Henry Green (00:09:27):
From school.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:09:28):
And then he was also, uh, correspond in Hebrew, using the Hebrew letters and the Arabic, uh, sounds. So he was using Hebrew as a language to communicate in Arabic. A lot of people were doing that. And I remember reading those letters, it was funny.
Henry Green (00:09:51):
(laugh) did, um, ... he, he, he ... When did he move to Casa then?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:10:02):
When he was 13. He found work in Casablanca, so he would spend the whole week in Casablanca, living I don't know where, and then go back for Shabbat, uh, in Azemmour by bus. So, uh ...
Henry Green (00:10:17):
And, he, uh, ... was he Shomer Shabbos, was he-
Sylvain Abitbol (00:10:23):
You know, it was a very, very relaxed Judaism. A very open, very non- .... Shomer Shabbat? No. Uh, he used to go to synagogue, our home was kosher, uh, but would light the house, uh, he would drive ... you could drive on Shabbat yes, but he wouldn't smoke.
Henry Green (00:10:54):
Eat kosher outside the house?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:10:57):
Yeah. I'm sure.
Henry Green (00:11:00):
So more like a Masorti, that kind of thing.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:11:01):
Yeah, yeah.
Henry Green (00:11:03):
You know, the middle way.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:11:05):
So we, we would go at school all dressed up for Shabbat. Because it was Shabbat but we had to go to school, so we were all dressed up. And, uh, the teacher will tell us, "Oh, the [inaudible 00:11:23] (speaking in French)." You know, it's ... you know. And then we had this, uh, math teacher who was orthodox. He was ... he would go to school on Friday, write the whole lesson on the blackboard, and come on Saturday and give us a lesson that [inaudible 00:11:42].
Sylvain Abitbol (00:11:42):
So this kind of dichotomy, if you want, or this ability to go from one world to the other. All people working on Shabbat, but in the house, it was everything was kosher, and they would do the final on Saturday night, come and ... you know, it's like you had two lives: one at home and then another one outside of home.
Henry Green (00:12:08):
Your ... your father learned French because of the, uh, the French colonization or-
Sylvain Abitbol (00:12:13):
Yeah, school. French schools, yeah.
Henry Green (00:12:15):
French schools. And how far did he go in school?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:12:18):
Oh, not far. Not far. Like I said, he left school when he was 13.
Henry Green (00:12:24):
And your mother, did she speak French?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:12:26):
She also was educated in French at school.
Henry Green (00:12:29):
And, and spoke Arabic too?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:12:31):
Yeah.
Henry Green (00:12:33):
And what did your parents speak to the kids?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:12:35):
French.
Henry Green (00:12:36):
French. And did you have help in the house?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:12:38):
Yeah.
Henry Green (00:12:39):
And, the help ...
Sylvain Abitbol (00:12:41):
Arabic.
Henry Green (00:12:42):
Arabic. And Muslims or-
Sylvain Abitbol (00:12:44):
Muslims, yeah.
Henry Green (00:12:44):
And Muslims.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:12:45):
Ladies.
Henry Green (00:12:45):
Ladies. And um, did you have brothers or sisters?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:12:50):
Yep, I had two sisters, twin sisters, and a brother.
Henry Green (00:12:54):
And what year ... their names and what year were they born?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:12:56):
Ruth and Lydia, uh, born, uh, August 15, 1950. And George, uh, born March 20, 1954.
Henry Green (00:13:06):
And were you close to them?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:13:09):
Very close. Even here.
Henry Green (00:13:10):
All, all 3 or-
Sylvain Abitbol (00:13:12):
Yeah.
Henry Green (00:13:14):
And, so, how did you guys get into trouble?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:13:24):
(laughs) I don't know if I can talk about it here.
Henry Green (00:13:24):
(laughs) give me some stories.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:13:24):
You know, I'll tell you. Uh, we, we never had drugs. None of this nonsense. However, we lived outside of home. I don't recall spending an ... an extra hour in the house. Uh, the moment we get back from school, during the summer, would be outside of the home. Leaving in the morning, coming back for lunch, leaving again, coming back for dinner. And just being friends and you know, doing what kids do, uh, from a very, very early age. We used to go to the beach or to the pool alone, taking a bus. Uh, so this gave us a sense of freedom that, uh, that we enjoyed a lot. And I, I had a sense of adventure where I would leave ... I think I left when I was 14 or 15 for a few days and, uh, traveling.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:14:23):
I remember, I, uh, I was 14 and I was invited to the wedding of the sister of a friend of mine who lived in Rabat. So I implored my parents to let me take a train to go to the wedding with a friend of mine, whose name is Henry, like you. And I told Henry, "Take a passport." He said, "Why?" I said, "Take a passport." So we went to the wedding, uh, we spent [inaudible 00:14:47] in the morning. I said, "We'll take a train and we'll go to Spain." So we went to Spain, I called my parents from, uh, from Spain, and my father was just driving ... I mean, he (laughs).
Sylvain Abitbol (00:15:00):
First, they didn't know for a day where we were. There was no phone at the time and we had to go to a public phone from Spain and get the change and [inaudible 00:15:13] And I said, "Listen, I'm in Spain, I'll come back. Don't worry about it." We spent a week with a few bucks. And we went back through the ... took the ferry boat from Algeciras to Tangier, and then take a train from Tangier to Casablanca. Or, you know what, we would go ... I think when I was 16, I still have a lot of pictures. You know, we created on Facebook, a group ... we have a group called, uh, We were 20s in the '70s in Casablanca. So basically all the kids, all those who were between 15 and 20 in the '70s in Casablanca, or who'd have been in the '70s. A group that grew up to about 400 people. And a lot of those pictures are there where I remember ...
Sylvain Abitbol (00:16:06):
You know what, we went to, uh, to Marrakesh, 15 years old or 16 years old kid, going to Marrakesh, finding a hotel that cost us, five in a room, having the time of our life. Then I told my friend Henry, I said, "Henry, let's go to, to the mountain." And there was a mountain, uh, where we hitchhiked to the mountain where we would ski. We had no clue how we would ski, but we said, "We'll find ... "We'll see the snow." And so we got that, uh, that place in the mountain. It was a ski resort, with only the French people who were there. Very, uh, [inaudible 00:16:58], very upper-class. And it's funny, something happened to me. I wanted to call my, uh, my parents to tell them ... I hadn't called them, I hadn't called them for two or three days. I said, "I might as well tell them I'm still alive." And at the time, we're looking for the post office to phone. It was the post office. You could go to the post office and, uh, you had those [inaudible 00:17:24] places where you give a number and you wait until the communication's ready and they call you to come be number 10 or 3, and ... So I saw this big thing "[inaudible 00:17:32] telefona." With a box.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:17:32):
I get into the house, it was not a post office. It was the house of the [inaudible 00:17:43]. And a cop just saw me and punched me in the face, and he said, uh, ... in Arabic, he said, "[inaudible 00:17:56]" like "your brother [inaudible 00:17:58] to the Jews of that place." I said, "Listen, I'm sorry. I apologize. I thought that was the post office." Put me in jail. Put me in jail and he said, "Here you are and you'll never come out of there."
Sylvain Abitbol (00:18:13):
So my friend Henry bargained with him. And he ... I was put in jail around 10 o'clock in the morning, it was a mountain. [inaudible 00:18:25] becoming very cold. And then he bargained with him around midnight, or 11 o'clock, by night. He said, "We'll give you every dime we have, just let him out." He said, "Okay." So he called me and he said, "Sylvain, I made a deal with him." I said, "[inaudible 00:18:44] not. I don't want to make a deal. I'm not giving my money."
Henry Green (00:18:50):
(laughs)
Sylvain Abitbol (00:18:50):
[inaudible 00:18:50] and I said, "Okay." He said, "No." He said, "Fine. You're there. What am I going to do? I'm sitting outside, so you have at least to come out and sit with me." I said, "No problem." So, we made a deal, emptied our pockets, and then we found ourselves, it was around midnight, in the mountain, with not a dime, and, uh, we decided we had to find a place to sleep.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:19:17):
So we went to this place called Le Club Par Francais. This was a kind of a local club for members, lodge. And we got to the reception, ask for a room. The [inaudible 00:19:34]'s only for members. And they actually told him this story. "It's okay, I'll get you a room." So they got us a room, so we spend the night, and we ate because he gave us food. And then the morning, we hitched back ... we hitchhiked back to Marrakesh. It was nice, listen, what can I tell you? It's ...
Henry Green (00:19:53):
A weekend out.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:19:54):
It's a weekend out.
Henry Green (00:19:56):
(laughs) what was your house like in-
Sylvain Abitbol (00:19:59):
Health?
Henry Green (00:20:00):
Your house. Your house. Maison.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:20:01):
House. Uh, beautiful house. It was a big house, uh, it was a villa. What, no. I was born ... I remember, I mean, in a building, uh ... it was a tiny apartment. And it's funny because, you know, we had neighbours who I know, live also in Montreal who I know. And it was Ferdinande de Lesseps, who's the one who built the, uh, the canal, uh, in, uh, in Egypt.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:20:41):
Then, uh, my father was starting to do well. He bought a villa and we lived there, we had neighbours. It was a beautiful house. Then we moved to another villa. Uh, beautiful house.
Henry Green (00:20:59):
And, were your neighbours Jewish, not Jewish?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:21:00):
Uh, mostly Jewish.
Henry Green (00:21:03):
And was there a synagogue in the area?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:21:04):
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We wouldn't live far from a synagogue.
Henry Green (00:21:08):
And when you were growing up, did you play on the streets?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:21:12):
Yeah, always. Always, always. We, we ... The only thing we knew was the, uh, life outside.
Henry Green (00:21:19):
And, did you play with Jews or Jews and non-Jews?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:21:22):
Only Jews.
Henry Green (00:21:23):
Only Jews. Uh, did you visit, uh, their homes, your Jewish friends' homes?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:21:28):
Yeah, yeah.
Henry Green (00:21:28):
They came to your homes?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:21:29):
Yeah, yeah.
Henry Green (00:21:30):
What about non-Jews, Muslims? Did they come to your homes?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:21:32):
Muslims, I had one Muslim friend. Yeah, he would come to my home. Uh, my father had also some Muslim friends. So they would come to our home. Uh, or French. When I started going to [inaudible 00:21:47] later on, I met some French, uh ... It was mostly Jews.
Henry Green (00:21:52):
And [inaudible 00:21:52] was when you were in high school.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:21:55):
Yep.
Henry Green (00:21:55):
And before that, what school did you go to?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:21:58):
It's ... called the [inaudible 00:21:59].
Henry Green (00:22:00):
And, the [inaudible 00:22:02] (speaking French).
Sylvain Abitbol (00:22:04):
Yes.
Henry Green (00:22:05):
Was that just Jewish students or were there-
Sylvain Abitbol (00:22:07):
Yep. Just Jewish-
Henry Green (00:22:07):
Just Jewish students.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:22:08):
Although I understand that, uh, recently, some, uh, Muslims are attending the school, which still is functioning today, because of the level of education. But at the time it was mostly, uh, mostly Jews. Only Jews. And I remember the name of every one of my teachers over there.
Henry Green (00:22:27):
Did, did, um, your ... When you talked to, uh, your Jewish friends, what language was that in?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:22:32):
French.
Henry Green (00:22:33):
And when you talked to Muslims-
Sylvain Abitbol (00:22:35):
Arabic.
Henry Green (00:22:35):
Arabic.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:22:36):
Or French. You know what, French, because we all went ... educated in French.
Henry Green (00:22:39):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Tell me what Shabbat would be like in your house.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:22:44):
Amazing. Amazing. On ... I mean, we used to go Friday night ... Initially when I was younger, I, I used to go with my dad to synagogue on Friday night. Later when we became older, we used to go with friends. So it was like, we'll go to synagogue as friends [inaudible 00:23:05]. And, and, uh, I ... every Shabbat, my father would bring back to the house a sailor who was a Jew, coming on the French Navy, who was, uh, stopping in Casablanca, a soldier, someone he would meet at synagogue, and it was fun. I mean, it was full of meeting a lot of new people.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:23:32):
Uh, same thing on Saturday for lunch. I would go to school with my dad or with my friends later on, and it was a lot of fun.
Henry Green (00:23:45):
And did you mother cook?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:23:46):
Oh yeah.
Henry Green (00:23:47):
And what kind of foods did she cook?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:23:50):
[inaudible 00:23:50] I mean, uh, Shabbat the finale, but Friday night was, uh, meatballs, uh, fishballs, uh, soup, uh, couscous. My father also had a lot of, uh ...
PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:24:04]
Sylvain Abitbol (00:24:03):
[inaudible 00:24:01] My father also had a lot of, uh, virtually, uh, business, uh, acquaintance from France, who was a Jewish man from Turkey. And he would visit our house. Uh, he became almost like a member of the family. He would come for business, and of course he would come home, and uh, and uh, kind of a friendship developed between them.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:24:22):
So, uh, he ... I, I saw him a few years ago, and he said, "I still remember the old ... [inaudible 00:24:29] couscous [foreign language 00:24:31]."
Henry Green (00:24:34):
And, did you ever do any cooking? Did you ever go and help your mom? Or no?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:24:37):
Uh, no. Uh, the only thing I did was, uh, still [inaudible 00:24:40] the raw meat.
Henry Green (00:24:41):
(laughs)
Sylvain Abitbol (00:24:41):
The ... For [inaudible 00:24:41] the red ... raw beef for being barbecued, uh, I used to take it over that [inaudible 00:24:47].
Henry Green (00:24:48):
Did your uncles and aunts, or your grandmother also come for Shabbat?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:24:51):
Yeah.
Henry Green (00:24:52):
So it was a large crowd then?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:24:54):
Yeah. Yeah.
Henry Green (00:24:55):
And was there, um, like a [foreign language 00:24:59] was their singing afterwards? Or-
Sylvain Abitbol (00:25:00):
Oh, yeah, yeah. It's oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. [crosstalk 00:25:05]
Henry Green (00:25:05):
Blessing, uh, [foreign language 00:25:05].
Sylvain Abitbol (00:25:05):
After, after ... Yeah, yeah, [foreign language 00:25:05] everything. Yeah.
Henry Green (00:25:06):
What about the Seder? Tell me about a Seder at your house. Like for ... Like now. Pesach.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:25:12):
I'll tell you something. (laughs)
Henry Green (00:25:12):
(laughs)
Sylvain Abitbol (00:25:16):
If you have come to my house, it would be the same Seder. I mean, listen, it's in process with the [foreign language 00:25:20] which is, uh ... I don't know if you know the [foreign language 00:25:23]. Uh, we have a tradition among Moroccan Jews, where before we, uh, uh, we read the Haggadah take the, uh, the Seder on the plate, with all the uh, the ingredients, and we take it, and uh, over the, they had a every member, and we sing the full [inaudible 00:25:41] which is [foreign language 00:25:42] we left Israel, [foreign language 00:25:47] the, the, the bread of, uh, the poor [foreign language 00:25:52] son of freedom.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:25:54):
So for each one we'd sing that. And I still have the, the, the Haggadah that there was [foreign language 00:26:04] there. So we ha- had ... Each one had a Haggadah, each in turn would read the passa- uh, passage, uh, and then the food would follow, and then the other part of the Haggadah, and ... But the weather was phenomenal. Phenomenal. I mean, uh, uh, ... You know, after the Seder, we would go out, and for the [foreign language 00:26:26] which is, uh, i- i- I tell you, the me- ... We, would go with friends from house to house, a group of people going from house to another, just having a lot of fun.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:26:39):
You know, I, I feel privileged for the, uh, the youth that I had. It was fun.
Henry Green (00:26:48):
Did, um, ... You were the oldest, but, uh, do you ever remember, uh, um, saying, uh, the four questions, or looking for the [foreign language 00:26:59]?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:27:00):
Yeah. Yeah.
Henry Green (00:27:01):
Did you ever get it?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:27:03):
Of course. I mean, uh, uh, so, I would leave my uh, I let my younger brother also planned it. Uh, it was, uh, just fine.
Henry Green (00:27:09):
And what would your father or mother give you if you found it? Do you remember?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:27:15):
I don't recall if it was anything specific except that the reward of, uh, having, uh, found it. The thing is, uh, my father had this business of, uh, like I said, uh, cosmetic accessory things. And he had a lot of samples, so we ... He used to ... We ... He would bring you samples as gifts.
Henry Green (00:27:35):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Sylvain Abitbol (00:27:36):
It was fun. It was nice.
Henry Green (00:27:39):
Did ... Do you remember of any sports clubs, or, uh-
Sylvain Abitbol (00:27:42):
Yep. Yeah. I, uh, uh, I went to basketball, volleyball, and we, we used to play also the beach. A- and a lot of swimming. A lot of swimming. Yeah.
Henry Green (00:27:55):
It's really [inaudible 00:27:55] or other kinds of clubs, where-
Sylvain Abitbol (00:27:56):
Oh, no, no. Personal.
Henry Green (00:27:57):
Personal.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:27:57):
Yeah. Or ... And when we, I became a scout, uh, a lot of physical activities related to the, uh, to the movement.
Henry Green (00:28:04):
And the scout, uh, when did you become a scout?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:28:07):
I think when I was 15 or 16.
Henry Green (00:28:11):
And why did you become a scout?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:28:17):
You know, it's just part of the Jewish life. You know, you do your bar mitzvah, then, uh, you grow up, and then, you know, I, I, I guess it's still part of the Maslow, uh, theory, uh, uh, being part of a group, and, uh, because it was fun.
Henry Green (00:28:35):
Were there just Jews in these classes?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:28:37):
Just ... It was [foreign language 00:28:41].
Henry Green (00:28:42):
So, um, this period between 1949, let's say, and you became a scout in, uh, 1964, that 15 years, there's lots of, uh, change going on in terms of, uh, Morocco.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:28:58):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Henry Green (00:28:59):
How did that affect you at all?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:29:01):
Through the stress that our parents were living. We felt it. Uh, we ... I, I still remember the, uh, my father, uh, uh, listening to, uh, the short wave radio to see what's, what's happening in the, uh, in Israel. Uh, so we'd feel the stress from, uh, from the parents.
Henry Green (00:29:26):
Did they, um, when Israel wa- was created as a state in '48, um, by the time there was a, uh, '56 war, you, you maybe were old enough to-
Sylvain Abitbol (00:29:38):
I was seven. I, I remember it very clearly. Very, very clearly. Uh, the sense of hope that, uh, we were at a very a very [inaudible 00:29:51] time. Uh, Israel was central to everything we did. And we felt it in the home, at school, at Shul, at scouts, it was this common thread in our life. And, in '56 I was seven. And, I was reading a lot at the time, because I started reading when I was five. My mother taught me how to read. And, I was reading the newspapers. I, I still picture myself lying on the flo- on the, on the ground, with these newspaper from France opened. And going through the articles trying to decipher it, trying to understand what was say, because you could see pictures of things. And, um, it was a very stressful moment.
Henry Green (00:30:44):
Did, um ... How was was signed as the manifested, were there, uh, were your parents a member of the Zionist club, or did, uh,-
Sylvain Abitbol (00:30:51):
No. I don't recall. My, I, I know that my father spoke about, uh ... There were a lot of mysticism. Uh, talking to us when we were young about the [foreign language 00:31:04] evening, uh, reading the [foreign language 00:31:05] on Saturday night. Uh, but no. He was ... I, uh, that I know of. So what happened is, they spent a few months in Spain, d- didn't work out. And, my brother ... My father had a brother living in Montreal. And he said my mother said he ... You know, say David, why don't we try Canada? So they left Spain to go to Canada, to see what was going on. So, and the janitor told me, he said, "I have a big envelope with ..." I'm supposed to collect the mail for Miss [inaudible 00:31:35]. He said in a note, "Put it there, because I'm going to send it tomorrow." So I wrote a note saying, "Uh, my father, my mother was [inaudible 00:31:41] of [inaudible 00:31:44]. The [inaudible 00:31:44]." Anyway. The problem was, we, we had to [inaudible 00:31:48] back, to, hike back, to, uh, to Grenoble, we didn't no money. Really no money. And, I, I remember we ... I still have a picture of that thing, uh, we're sitting on the highway, tired, and there ... I saw this restaurant just, uh, outside of [inaudible 00:32:07] on the, on the French side.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:32:13):
No, I'm sorry. What, what he was sitting in Spain, we hitchhiked, and then we put ourself in a small city called [foreign language 00:32:19]. So we went to this bar, and we met this guy. We said, "You alone?" Uh, "Come and see my house." And Henry was very [inaudible 00:32:32] and he says, "[foreign language 00:32:34]." So, finally we went. So we get e- e- up in the room ... of the h- the house. We had to be very, very cautious. So he gets us to this room, and he locked the door. And I started ... I said, "What are you doing?" He said, "Ah," I said, "What are you doing?" So he decided to unlock the door, but I couldn't sleep. I thought Henry is [inaudible 00:32:56] I don't want to stay here. You want to stay here? You say, "I can't, I don't want to stay here, I don't trust this guy."
Sylvain Abitbol (00:33:03):
So he was pissed off. And, he had no other choice. So he followed the ... We opened the door silently, and decided to go down the stairs, and then I don't know what ha- what ha- what I did, I ... Some, something, uh, fell on the floor. This old lady saw two kids looking like I don't know, bandits, I don't know what. Uh, listen, we are very tanned. So, we started running. Opened the door, and we just ran and ran and ran. And, and he was pissed off at me. He said, "What? We didn't sleep because of your [inaudible 00:33:36]." [inaudible 00:33:36] what will be. We don't know what, what would ha- happen. Anyway, so there we cross to France, and it, it was, uh, Yom Kippur and a half. We didn't ... We hadn't eaten for your ... A day and a half.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:33:50):
And, I went to this restaurant, and I saw this lady. And I'll, I'll, I'll remember the, her face, you have no idea. And I said, "Madam, uh, this is what happened." She said, "No problem." She gave me two baguettes with pate, uh, a quart of, uh, a bottle of wine, and I want you ... Oh, yeah, said eat. Oh eat, eat. So finally we, we got to, uh, to Grenoble. We had, we had to, to eat to the, uh, to the, uh, cafeteria at the, uh, at school. The university. And, uh, then I said to myself, I said, uh, "It was May. Uh, I had no money. No way to communicate. Who to call?" And, so I went to the bank to see maybe, uh, some money was left. Because I said, I think I left, but they couldn't been to $5.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:34:43):
And I said, "What's the, my balance of my account?" And they told me the equivalent of, uh, $500. At the time. If that give today, it was $5,000. So I said, "Give me the money. Give me all the cash. Give me everything." So I got all the money, went back home to our, the apartment that are rented, and Aliyah was having his shower. So the bank rolls were big bank rolls like this. One of them are just glued them on their, on their (laughs) on the wall. (laughs) Yeah, because it's so much money, money come from? So I told him. He said, "That's your money?" I said, "I don't know." Two days later, uh, there's a note on my apartment. Go again, you have to remember there was no mail. And, it says, "Uh, this is the bank. Uh, there was a mistake that was done. You have to come back."
Henry Green (00:35:30):
(laughs)
Sylvain Abitbol (00:35:33):
They ... Every day they did that. So one day I came back to the apartment and this kid was waiting for me. He said, "Mr. [inaudible 00:35:40]." He said, "[inaudible 00:35:41] mean you have to go back to the bank." I said, "Okay." So I went back to see the, uh, the bank manager. And, he said, "So you understand. You were ... eh, eh you was, you no supposed to have money in your account. Suddenly you find money in the account, you don't ask questions you took the money? You're, you're stealing money from that, that doesn't belong to you." I said, "I assumed that my father has, uh, has transferred money. So that's what I assumed." He said, "So you don't check?" I said, "No, why should I check?" He said, "Well, if it was transferred by mistake, by somebody who you don't know ..." I said, "I'm not supposed to know my, my father's friends." So he said, "Well, you have to give that money back." I said, "Well, I spent it." He said, "What? A week? That much money?" I said, "I had debts."
Henry Green (00:36:29):
(laughs)
Sylvain Abitbol (00:36:32):
So-
Henry Green (00:36:32):
(laughs)
Sylvain Abitbol (00:36:35):
So I said, "Listen, I'm going to, I'm going to, when I finish, uh, my uh, my uh, my education, when I start working, three years after I start working, I'll start to pay you back." Because his [inaudible 00:36:46] mistake. And I made a deal with him. So it was at the end of the, uh, the summer. And then I got a, a letter I think the strike, uh, finished. And I got a letter from my dad saying, "Listen. Let's all meet in Paris. We have to make a decision." So my parent flew back from, from uh, Montreal to Paris. My sisters also flew from, uh, because we're s- still Moroccan. They flew to Paris. My brother flew also to Paris. And, I took the train went to Paris. And, my uh, my mother in Paris we were so happy to see each other. And I said, "So then we could apply for immigration to Canada." I said, "Well, that's your plan, I'm going to do my, uh, I'm going to the [foreign language 00:37:32] I wanted to do engineering in Israel.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:37:36):
Say, "No, come on, Sylvain. (laughs) Okay. That's okay. Fine. I change my plan. But I, I was planning to, to, to, to go, to do my engineering, because I didn't scientific, uh, the scientific track at school. And, uh, so we all left the ... We, we had two months in, uh, in uh, in Paris, in a hotel. And, uh, then we got our paperwork from the immigration. And we landed in Montreal August 7th, 1968. We went to stay at my, uh, uncle for two weeks. I, uh, I went to, uh, [inaudible 00:38:15] I registered myself for engineering school. And that we begin our new life.
Henry Green (00:38:22):
So, let's go back to Morocco before we go on with, uh, um, Canada. The, uh, uh, the, there was a lot of Jewish underground in-
Sylvain Abitbol (00:38:34):
Yeah.
Henry Green (00:38:34):
... in, in Morocco.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:38:36):
Yep.
Henry Green (00:38:36):
Um, uh, their stories, for example of, uh, of uh, of um, [foreign language 00:38:42]-
Sylvain Abitbol (00:38:42):
Yep.
Henry Green (00:38:43):
... putting letters in, in the mailboxes.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:38:46):
More than, more than that. More than that. Uh, another terrible thing happened also, before that, uh, before I left is my father disappeared for three days. For three days we didn't know where he was. Uh, then, uh, one of my uncle had a lot of connections, uh, uh, tried to find out what happened. He was taken by the police, and, uh, knowing that my uncles had connection, they decided to keep him for three days in a car, going to [foreign language 00:39:26] knew a, uh, a police station, because they knew that he, for, they, they couldn't take him to any police station who would find him.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:39:31):
They were trying to grill him on, uh, bullshit things. And my father was a very timid man. He was not scaring, uh, easily. And, uh, he came out of that devastated. And that what prompted him to, uh, to, uh, to leave Morocco.
Henry Green (00:39:55):
Was he able to take his money with him? What did you ... What was left when you le- when-
Sylvain Abitbol (00:40:00):
Listen we ... There were ways. There are ways. One of the way I remember, and that's a very interesting story. At very young I used to go with my dad to the port of Casablanca. And we would ... He would know of through the papers a ravel of commercial, uh, uh, uh, ships. So, a boat will, uh, will dock. He would go at the plank to talk to the captain. And say, "Listen, if you have to buy, uh, stuff here for the food and everything, I give you the money here, just give me the receipt." So the receipts, uh, we got the receipts. And, uh, you go to France, was a company, and be reimbursed. That was one of the way. The other way is, in France ... In Morocco, we could buy the French lottery. The winning tickets, and it was small amounts. I'm not, uh, not talking big things. The winning ticket would be sold at the 30 or 40% premium. Because people knew that with this piece of paper, you could go to France and cash it.
Henry Green (00:41:02):
Hm.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:41:04):
Or, you have pass sales. People who'd pass money at the ... And the rates were going at ... I remember from 20% to 40%. You had to trust the person, give your money, and pray to God that the person would not get caught. And then you'd get your money on the other side, at a 40% premium. U- up to 40% premium. So, but people left a lot of businesses. Uh, houses were sold, you know, at, uh, way, at a much lower value. Uh, I have a lot of friends of mine who, who, who have properties that they knew that had, that, uh, they lost.
Henry Green (00:41:36):
What happened to your villa?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:41:38):
It was sold.
Henry Green (00:41:40):
At less value?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:41:42):
Uh, it was sold at less value. Yeah.
Henry Green (00:41:44):
And what about the objects in the house?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:41:49):
I think, uh, everything, uh, everything stayed there because, you know, uh, it could not have gone to Spain. No, everything stayed there. My father had a business. But that ... I ... It's funny, before he left he had a, a Muslim, uh, shipper, who would ship the, uh, the goods from store to store, [inaudible 00:42:09] I mean, uh, orders. And he was a totally illiterate man. And he would recognize that box, depending on his customer but he had his own way of doing things. And my father was paying his salary, plus his insurance. His, uh, retirement insurance. So before he left, he went and he paid the, for the remaining of the whole premium-
Henry Green (00:42:34):
Hm.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:42:40):
That's what I remember.
Henry Green (00:42:42):
Did you take anything when you left and, uh-
Sylvain Abitbol (00:42:46):
No.
Henry Green (00:42:46):
Nothing-
Sylvain Abitbol (00:42:46):
No. Like I told you, I left in a hurry. Uh-
Henry Green (00:42:50):
Anything ... Any special object?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:42:51):
Uh, I told my mom that, uh, I had the [foreign language 00:42:55] uh, stamp collection. That's all. That's all.
Henry Green (00:43:00):
Did they ... When they left, did they take anything?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:43:02):
Yeah, they took some of those things. Yeah. Pictures, uh, but not much. Not much.
Henry Green (00:43:10):
Did, did, uh, when you were involved in the, uh, in the scouting youth movement, um, h- ho- how was contact made with you, in terms of the Zionist component? Was it a Zionist youth movement?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:43:26):
Not ... No, no, no, no, no, no. The scout was something ... The only common thread was my Chief. He was called Chief, became a [foreign language 00:43:34], because he left to go to Israel, he came back with another name.
Henry Green (00:43:37):
And he recruited you?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:43:38):
Yeah.
Henry Green (00:43:39):
And, um, were you trained in arms at all?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:43:42):
No.
Henry Green (00:43:43):
Fighting?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:43:44):
No.
Henry Green (00:43:45):
No. Just in, in, uh, um,-
Sylvain Abitbol (00:43:48):
Information.
Henry Green (00:43:49):
Information. Intelligence, more or less. And, how do you think the police then picked up on you?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:43:59):
Uh, not on me personally. No. It was on the, on the, on, on the movement.
Henry Green (00:44:04):
On the movement, right. Of course.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:44:07):
I don't know. I guess they may have tapped the lines. The phone lines. Uh, because I recall, uh, receiving a phone call from this Paul. And then I, uh ... They gave me a clue when we talked about make sure don't say like he was calling as a friend, that ... So I realize that the phone lines could have been tapped. So were mistakes done? I don't know.
Henry Green (00:44:39):
Did, um, there is this, uh, kind of, um, image of the King being favourable to, uh, to the Jews. Um, and yet there was this long period where Jews couldn't get out. Um, what's y- what's your impression of the-
Sylvain Abitbol (00:44:57):
Uh, you know what? I'll tell you. I don't think the Jews were treated worse than the Muslims, in terms of being allowed to live, in terms of being about, about, allowed to get your money out. I don't think there was discrimination. The whole, the whole country was like that. Honestly. Uh, we were also subject to the King. So when you're subject of the King, you belong to the King. And if someone wants to take that away from the King, it's like an insult to the King, regardless of whether you're a Jew or not. So, did he do it because he loved the Jews, or because it was insult to him? I don't know. History will tell. But the fact of the matter is, this is a King who's was able to stop the deportation of the Jews fr- from, uh, from, uh, from, uh, Morocco, to the camps.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:45:42):
Although he was in exile. Uh, I remember like yesterday when he came back from exile. And I remember also when his son became the King. Uh, at the end of the day, regardless of the motive behind it, Jews were able to leave Morocco.
Henry Green (00:46:10):
So why did your parents leave then? I mean, you had a reason.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:46:14):
You know what? I never ... Every day one of the family would leave. It was like a movement that started, that just [inaudible 00:46:22] it became viral.
Henry Green (00:46:23):
Post '67?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:46:25):
Post '67. Oh, uh, sixty fi- starting in '63, but increased post '67. Post '67, '68 was just a nightmare. Listen, there ... You know that, we were at 250,000 Jews. Today, no more than 3,000 are left. So, the whole population moved out within 10 years.
Henry Green (00:46:49):
And, uh, there's this kind of story that parents would send their children in advance.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:46:54):
Yeah.
Henry Green (00:46:54):
So your sisters, your-
Sylvain Abitbol (00:46:56):
Myself.
Henry Green (00:46:56):
Would ... Well, did they send your sisters out too?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:46:59):
Yep. Yep.
Henry Green (00:46:59):
A- and then they followed?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:47:03):
Yep.
Henry Green (00:47:04):
And what about all ... You had many aunts and uncles.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:47:07):
Yep.
Henry Green (00:47:07):
And their kids. What happened to them?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:47:09):
The ... Most of them went to Israel or France. Very few of my family came here to Canada. But, uh, the ch- the bo- ... On my father's side, they all went to Israel. On my mother's side, uh, a lot of them had be all- already living, were already living in, uh, in France. Uh, so some went to Israel, but mostly to France.
Henry Green (00:47:33):
So you arrive in Montreal, it's, uh, the summer of 1968, and, um, your parents had already been in Montreal.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:47:41):
Yep.
Henry Green (00:47:42):
So did, uh, an organization like, [Jias 00:47:45] uh, come and help you at all?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:47:47):
Yeah.
Henry Green (00:47:48):
Can you talk about that?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:47:50):
Well, they, uh, they, uh, they help us to ... for the tickets. For the plane tickets, which we had to pay back, which we did. Uh-
PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:48:04]
Sylvain Abitbol (00:48:03):
... which we had to pay back, which we did. Uh, I think it's different from family to family. But, uh, r-, after that, no, we... my parents, uh, rented a house on, uh... not far from here, and two years later they bought a duplex, so w-... But the fact of the matter is, we found an amazingly warm community waiting for us. The, uh, the culture clash was terrible. I mean, uh, listen, we were dealing, uh... I, I, I'll never forget, uh, a few months after I was here... no, no, the next summer. There was a, uh... I don't know what kind of demonstration [inaudible 00:48:50] not from here, not far from here. And, I was walking, and uh, these [inaudible 00:48:56] they told me, "Why do you, all Moroccans, when you walk, do this? You do this." And I realized that we still had this stigma of checking who's behind you. Of course it disappeared, uh, over time. But, the language barrier, the, uh... but it was amazing. I mean, uh, the Y, uh, I remember going to the Y, [inaudible 00:49:20] the first year it was free, uh, the camps, uh... A lot of the services, uh, that were made available.
Henry Green (00:49:29):
Through the Jewish organizations?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:49:31):
Yeah.
Henry Green (00:49:32):
How did your parents have the means to be able to rent and then buy something so quickly?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:49:36):
Well, listen, my father, as I told you, had a bus-, uh, was a businessman, he was able to get, uh, some money out through the means that I mentioned. Listen, we were not millionaires, but, uh, uh, he was a smart man, and uh, he decided that, uh, the best investment would be to put his money in a house, which he did. And he operate his business from the house.
Henry Green (00:49:58):
And what his business?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:49:59):
His wh-... An Agent. He was, uh, selling, uh, [inaudible 00:50:01] because now he was a... he... th-... you know, the reason why we came to Montreal, actually, was the following. I told you before that, uh, they went to Spain, and could-... didn't work out. My, my parents didn't, didn't speak Spanish. They wanted to learn Spanish, my father was not able to.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:50:22):
So, since he was a rep for French companies who's home, home office was in France, [inaudible 00:50:31] distributing for us. So they said, "Why don't you go to Canada? We can give you the line." So, that's how we ended up coming to Montreal. So, my father repped a couple of companies, uh, mostly in r-, barrettes. [inaudible 00:50:43] uh, h-, hair ornaments.
Henry Green (00:50:45):
Mm. Yeah.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:50:45):
And I remember, he used by-... he, he used to get, uh, the barrettes in bulk, and we used to put them in carts, all of us. (laughs) After school, we (laughs) we used to go home, on the table, watching the news, [inaudible 00:51:05] each one of us, [inaudible 00:51:06] the barrettes before going to do our work. And we had the phone lines. (laughs) It's funny, we had two phones in the house, one for the business and one for the home. And it was a very... We were very... talking loud and crying and laughing and telling jokes and uh, yelling something about each other. And even if we yelling at each other for any reason whatsoever... kids... the phone line with my father would ring, everything would stop. (laughs)
Henry Green (00:51:34):
Hm.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:51:34):
My father, my mother would pick up the phone, she would answer like if it was a business, take the information, come back, and then go back to the yelling.
Henry Green (00:51:47):
(laughs)
Sylvain Abitbol (00:51:47):
(laughs) But, uh... Funny.
Henry Green (00:51:48):
Did you... Did you go to university then, or?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:51:49):
Yeah. [crosstalk 00:51:50] I went to [inaudible 00:51:50] I went to a [inaudible 00:51:53] uh, in mechanical engineering, uh, so I did mechanical and industrial engineering. And, uh, and that's where I met my first friends here in Montreal, who I'm still friends with.
Henry Green (00:52:08):
The, the... When you came to, um, Montreal, um, I assume you, you, um, you, you felt, since it was a frec-, French culture, that you would be, um, uh, th-, uh, th-, that you would be familiar with a lot. Was that true?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:52:25):
(laughs) Yes and no. The language was, of course, is French, is French. But, uh, I, I told you I, I came from France, and it, it was different. The people, the culture, the way of life was totally different, and even if we were speaking French, we were still foreigners.
Henry Green (00:52:47):
And then you, uh... There was this Jewish community that was helping you.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:52:52):
Yeah.
Henry Green (00:52:52):
And the Jewish community was basically Ashkenazic...
Sylvain Abitbol (00:52:56):
Correct.
Henry Green (00:52:56):
And, and English speaking.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:52:57):
Correct.
Henry Green (00:52:58):
So, how did that, you know, make you feel?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:53:01):
You know, it's, uh, very... I, I, I think two weeks after I arrived here, I realized that I had to learn English, uh, way beyond whatever English I got at school, which was, uh, minimum. So, I took it upon myself to learn the language. Uh, since I, uh, I was an avid reader, I decided to switch from French books to English books, with a dictionary on my hand. Uh, so I built up my vocabulary that way, and I also impose on myself an hour of TV every day in English to learn the language. And, uh, that's how I got the language.
Henry Green (00:53:53):
Yeah.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:53:53):
Of, of course, you get the language, but not necessarily the language.
Henry Green (00:53:56):
(laughs) And your parents, did they also pick up English?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:53:59):
No. French.
Henry Green (00:54:00):
French. So, who were your, your friends then? Were they, uh, you know, Francophones, were they Jews, were they-
Sylvain Abitbol (00:54:07):
Yeah. You know, the first day at school, I, I, I had the list of students in my class, and I tried to pinpoint, uh, Jewish names, so I saw Sammy Cohen, and uh, David [inaudible 00:54:22]. So, I just stood by the, the door, and l-, saw people coming i-, in, in, in. And I saw a guy, I said "Are you Sammy Cohen?" He said "No, no, I'm David [inaudible 00:54:30]" I said, [Foreign language 00:54:30]
Henry Green (00:54:30):
(laughs)
Sylvain Abitbol (00:54:32):
And, uh, s-, we've been friends since then, and very good friends.
Henry Green (00:54:35):
(laughs)
Sylvain Abitbol (00:54:36):
Uh, so from there, we met the other guys, we had a couple... at the time, there about... no more than 10 Jews at the [inaudible 00:54:44]. Uh, we had three guys from Iran, uh, David [inaudible 00:54:50] had a brother, and, uh, that's it. Couple of guys.
Henry Green (00:54:57):
And your neighborhood was...
Sylvain Abitbol (00:54:59):
Jewish.
Henry Green (00:54:59):
Was Jewish.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:55:00):
Jewish.
Henry Green (00:55:01):
But, English? Ashkenazic Jewish.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:55:02):
Yeah.
Henry Green (00:55:03):
Um, a number of uh, uh... a good number of Moroccans and Tunisians already had emigrated here. Did... W-, was there some kind of organization, uh, already formed? Or you...
Sylvain Abitbol (00:55:15):
It was, it was the start of the, the uh, this organization where we're sitting now, the CSUQ, it was called at the time, [inaudible 00:55:23] uh, [Foreign language 00:55:24] Francophone. Uh, it was just the, uh, rudiments of, uh, of an organization that was, uh... that would piggyback on the main organization.
Henry Green (00:55:35):
Of which, um, there was a kind of, uh, harmony? Or were the, um... the, these Fardi trying to begin to, to, um, um, identify as, as something different, or...
Sylvain Abitbol (00:55:50):
Listen, it was two different cultures. Uh, but what I want to say is, the full language [inaudible 00:56:00] to what you say. Uh, Jews were not allowed to go to Catholic schools, and the education system here was done... it was a conventional... unconventional, uh, structure. You had the [inaudible 00:56:13] school board, which was English, and the Catholic school board, which was French. So Jews, even Francophones, had to go to the [inaudible 00:56:22] school board. So, you had a whole generation of kids who became, from one day to the other, totally bilingual, but could not laugh on the same joke as their parents.
Henry Green (00:56:32):
(laughs)
Sylvain Abitbol (00:56:32):
(laughs)
Henry Green (00:56:37):
And, so, your, you, you-
Sylvain Abitbol (00:56:40):
Great.
Henry Green (00:56:40):
B-, so, you also, uh, began to hang with Catholic Francophones then, too.
Sylvain Abitbol (00:56:45):
At university, uh, yes. University. B-, you know what? Uh, uh, the... in engineering school, you, you have a lot of projects. So, you do a lot of projects, four or five together, so you have to develop a, uh, a relationship. But, that's how I had some friends from, from school.
Henry Green (00:57:05):
So, that was different than Morocco, where you would-
Sylvain Abitbol (00:57:09):
Oh, totally different. Totally different. But you know what? We used to go to study... We studied very hard. I don't think I stopped studying, uh, when I... since I arrived, and I'm still working hard. You know, we, we used to leave very early in the morning and go to school, uh, and stay 'til 11-, 11:15, which is, which was the time when the library, uh, would close down. So, we had to walk back home. And the first winters were terrible. It was very cold, and we used to walk by, walk back home, and, uh, we, uh... you know, we never knew how to dress up initially, and, and you know what? That's fine. But, that's the memory I have f-, and this group of people, we all met in the same library, studied, have a break for supper, have a break from time to time, just cold meats in the place, share a few jokes. You know what? Trying a bit to recreate the, the, the sense of uh, of [Foreign language 00:58:09] of, uh, of uh, friendship, camaraderie that we h-, we, we were living in Morocco. We just went to recreate it somehow. And-
Henry Green (00:58:19):
And was this... Do you think, um, just nostalgia?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:58:25):
Personally, no. No. I like it, I liked it here. My father felt a lot of nostalgia. But personally, I liked it here. I liked it a lot from day one.
Henry Green (00:58:34):
Did, did your parents become a member of a synagogue?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:58:37):
Yeah. They became a member of the Spanish and Portuguese. Uh, and it's funny, because, you know, in this, that synagogue, uh, there were a lot of Ashkenazi. And my, uh... the neighbour of my father at synagogue was a gentleman by the same of, uh, Mister Cohen. He was a Holocaust survivor. They were very good friends that could not communicate with each other.
Henry Green (00:59:02):
(laughs)
Sylvain Abitbol (00:59:02):
Mister Cohen wouldn't speak English, [inaudible 00:59:03] French, and my father would speak English. And they would respect each other a lot.
Henry Green (00:59:07):
(laughs)
Sylvain Abitbol (00:59:07):
Exchange a few words. And, uh... (laughs) I remember the [inaudible 00:59:14] I, I, I, I remember this man, uh, he told... I, I, I never forget that... This, just tradition has no sense. I said why? And he [inaudible 00:59:25] a picture of his child who, who was killed during the Holocaust just before his Bar Mitzvah. Very touching.
Henry Green (00:59:35):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). The, the, um... You graduated university, and, um, you got married?
Sylvain Abitbol (00:59:48):
No. No. I, I was [inaudible 00:59:54] Uh, I graduated from university, went to work for a, um, an American company, who's head office was in Boston... close to Boston, Nor-West Massachusets. It was called Factory Mature Engineering, and I was a field engineer. It's a, it's an engineering firm doing businesses exclusively for five insurance companies, specializing in high potential risks. So, extensive training, and we used to go in plant, uh, spend a week in going through every aspect of the plant before writing it down in report. On fire, on earthquake problems, on, uh, whole kind of, uh, situations. Doing all kind of chemical analysis, uh, structural analysis, this kind of things.
Sylvain Abitbol (01:00:41):
So I spent two years, uh, just going all over eastern Canada, specializing in, uh, in paper mills. I-, specifically, in one of the processes which was very unstable, which was the, um... what we used to call the uh, uh... the black [inaudible 01:00:58] recovery. Uh, it was fascinating. I learned a lot. Because you had to learn every aspect of, uh, of the industry. It was... I went to, to the North Pole, I went to, to, to, to, to Newfoundland, I went to New Brunswick, I, uh... I went to the [inaudible 01:01:16] uh, I went all over the place, and one of the most fascinating thing was, I flew as north as possible as you can fly, then I took a helicopter. Then a snowmobile to go to this radar station from the army to look at the, uh, the anchoring system to see if it was stable. Amazing. You know, when you are 23 or 24, it's fascinating. And... But I was making nine thousand dollars at the time. My salary. I went to see my boss, and I said, "Well, you're telling me I'm great, uh, you send me all over this place..." And they had those scales. You know, level one, level two, level three...
Henry Green (01:01:57):
Mm.
Sylvain Abitbol (01:01:58):
A, B, C. The maximum level to A is [inaudible 01:02:02] So, I realized there was no way I could make more money, so I left the company and joined, uh, Xerox corporation, uh, in sales. After a couple of years I did extremely well in sales. I mean, I feel I doubled my salary within the first year. And every year I doubled my salary of the previous year. And then, uh, they bought a company... uh, Xerox bought a company in communication, and they sent me in, uh, [inaudible 01:02:32] California, for training on communication. On telecom. I don't think I could have [inaudible 01:02:39] better training if I had to pay for it. Imagine one on one courses with PhDs, the people who invented the network.
Sylvain Abitbol (01:02:50):
The guy who designed the network, the local [inaudible 01:02:54] network that we use today, the designer of the architecture was part of... one of my teachers. The guy who designed the first mouse, the first ranger... A ranger was the first standalone computer system developed by Xerox. All those terminals of communication, all the protocols... Listen, we used to start class at 8:00 in the morning. S-... Uh, uh, uh... Stop for a half an hour for lunch, work until 5:00, go to the hotel, have a li-, uh, dinner, and then homework until midnight. For a month.
Sylvain Abitbol (01:03:33):
At the, at the, at the beginning of telecommunication is an amazing training. So, I got this training, spent a couple of years, did extremely well as a salesman, uh, and then I, I, I realized it was too good to leave, and not good enough to stay.
Henry Green (01:03:52):
(laughs)
Sylvain Abitbol (01:03:55):
So, an opportunity presented itself. A friend of mine came from, uh, from Taiwan with the first Apple clone. [inaudible 01:04:05] was already, uh... Then I got married. In the-, in '78, I got married. And I chose, uh, California, uh, for my, uh, honey-, honeymoon, because I wanted to buy the first microcomputer there. So, bought at first, my first microcomputer, loop programming, and wh-, I was fascinated by, by all of that. I went to see my boss at, uh, Xerox, and I said, "Listen, all this will disappear." He's, " Come on." And, uh, then when I got this first Apple clone, I told my friend, I said, "Listen, um, let's by 100." We bought 100 from Taiwan. Every money [inaudible 01:04:44] I just... e-, all my savings went, uh, there. Bought 100 computers, two hundred, uh, drives. The drives were, were on the site, and 100 screens.
Sylvain Abitbol (01:04:57):
We got them before Christmas of 1982. Yeah. '80... '82. And we rented a place, a, a... the basement of a, of a, uh, store, [inaudible 01:05:17] on, uh, close to downtown. Uh, they were selling, uh, m-, music equipment. And we'd put a couple of ads on the paper. I got up in the morning, there was a line up. We sold everything within a few hours. Outside... and then I took orders. I went back to see my boss and I resigned. I resigned and used the money... Told my wife, "I'm in business." Took the first plane, went to Taiwan, spent a month, bought a full container of product, came back. And we were selling exact copies of Apple. And then we started selling exact copies of IBM. And I trained the police of Montreal. Uh, I heard they opened a, a training, uh, school. M-, most of my clients were policemen. Uh, when the Pope came in, I, uh, I lent to the police, uh, uh, of Montreal, three IBM PCs with all the networking, all the software to manage the security for the pope. They gave me a kind of medal.
Henry Green (01:06:33):
(laughs)
Sylvain Abitbol (01:06:33):
I've never used it. Then, at the time, uh, copyright didn't exist in Canada. There was copyright, but s-, not appropriate to the situation we were living through. So, IBM decided to go e-, after me. They called me, and they said, "Listen, Mister Abitbol, we are going to sue you. We are going to win. And we are going to create a precedent, and we're going to create a law." And, which is what they did, except I did on a... We made an arrangement, which I'm not allowed to talk about. So, they won, and the law was created. The law of copyright of Canada was based on a judgment against me. So, then I s-, I went on my own, studied business, and uh, from then on, I just went up to a, another, but always [inaudible 01:07:29].
Henry Green (01:07:28):
And what is the business now?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:07:31):
Now we do a lot of, uh, uh... We have a company in, uh, in electronics. We do a lot of communi-... uh, for connectivity solutions for audio video. We're also involved in online training, and from this online training business, we came out with, uh, apps.
Henry Green (01:07:51):
So, let's pick up a few pieces. Uh, you got married in 1978, you said...
Sylvain Abitbol (01:07:55):
Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Henry Green (01:07:55):
And your wife's name?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:07:57):
Gilda.
Henry Green (01:07:58):
Gilda, maiden name?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:07:59):
Cohen.
Henry Green (01:07:59):
Cohen. And where, what is her background?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:08:02):
Oh. She was born in Safi, Morocco. She came in Montreal when she was 13, with... had two brothers, and...
Henry Green (01:08:11):
What year was that?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:08:12):
They, they came in '67.
Henry Green (01:08:13):
'67. B-, after the war, also?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:08:16):
I think so, yeah. Yep. And, so they went straight to Eng-, to English schools.
Henry Green (01:08:24):
And how did you meet her?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:08:25):
At the wedding.
Henry Green (01:08:27):
At a wedding, you met her?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:08:28):
Yep. She was going out with somebody else. And I saw her... and then I saw her talking to a friend of mine, and I said, uh, "Give me your... Give your... Give me your number." (laughs) I called her, and uh, we got married.
Henry Green (01:08:44):
And, you have how many children?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:08:45):
Three.
Henry Green (01:08:46):
And what are their names, please?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:08:48):
Jennifer. She, uh, she was born... Oh, I, she'd, she would not want me to tell her... to tell when she was born, because she looks... she does look 10 years younger than her real age, and she will kill me if I tell her [inaudible 01:09:02] her age.
Henry Green (01:09:01):
(laughs)
Sylvain Abitbol (01:09:03):
So, my son David, uh, was born in 1982, and Jeremy was born in 1990.
Henry Green (01:09:10):
And, where are they now?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:09:12):
Jennifer is in Toronto. She got married, she has two kids. Her husband works in the, uh, financial business. So, uh, his job is in Toronto. Uh, David works with us, and, uh, Jeremy's still a student.
Henry Green (01:09:28):
Um, one of the things you talked about was that, um, e-, your, uh, computer business led you towards, uh, working on security in Montreal. Um, were you identified as a Jew? Did people know you were Jewish?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:09:44):
Yeah. And it's funny what you say. Uh, at one point we did a big project for the US Navy, and it was a solution that we designed exclusively for the nuclear submarines, and as we were fine tuning the solution and uh, building the first prototypes, I got a call from, uh, a gentleman, he said, "My name is [inaudible 01:10:13] I'm from, uh..." The only thing I heard was security. And I said, "Sir, I don't need you." He said, "No, no, no. We're with [inaudible 01:10:22]" which is the Canadian Security Agency. "Can we talk?" I said, "Sure, by all means." It was a Friday morning, he came in, he say, "You know, Mister Abitbol, uh, your company's involved in export, and uh, you have to be aware of what you can say and not say when you're outside, what your people should say, because you have to protect, uh, Canadian interest." And I said, "Is this related to what we're doing with the Navy?" He said, "Well, I can't answer that." So I said, "Listen, fine." I, I was CEO of a public company which I founded, uh, which was involved in uh, selling all this kind of stuff to, uh, to a telecom industry.
Sylvain Abitbol (01:11:05):
And, uh, on the Monday morning, I told my staff, "Being briefed and trained on, uh, how to behave in shows, in restaurants, talk about this." But, uh, the fact that there was a Jew never, never got, uh, mentioned. I don't, I don't think it w-, it was a factor.
Henry Green (01:11:25):
So, here you are at the, um, the head of the Sephardi community in Montreal. How, how did that evolve? You came, you said, in, uh, '69.
Sylvain Abitbol (01:11:34):
'68.
Henry Green (01:11:36):
'68, and, um, um, you were aware of, um, uh... there wasn't much Sephardi infrastructure at all at this point. What was your role in the evolution of this?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:11:49):
It's funny, I, I haven't... I have never been involved in a-, in any kind of s-, oh, uh, of community structure. One day I got a call from [inaudible 01:12:02]
PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [01:12:04]
Sylvain Abitbol (01:12:00):
... Lady. I must have... It must be, what? 12 years, 14 years ago. Uh, she said, uh, "Can I meet with you?" So she came in, and she was with [inaudible 01:12:17]. They came to see me, and they said, uh, "We'd like- we would like you to ru- to head the, uh, Sephardi campaign for the global campaign. I said, "What do I know about campaign?" And I said, "Okay, I'll- I like the challenge. I'll take it."
Sylvain Abitbol (01:12:36):
So I- I chaired the Sephardi campaign. Uh, it was, uh, Robert [Renberg 01:12:43] at the time who was the chair of the campaign. Then, uh, the next chair was [inaudible 01:12:51]. And he said, "Sylva, would you run another year?" I said, "It- it's difficult." [inaudible 01:12:58]. I said, "Yes." So Stanley Plotnick was president at the time, asking me on the- on the executive of the federation. And then, I chaired with him in a project on the- on the telecom equipment for- for the federation.
Sylvain Abitbol (01:13:18):
I co-chaired with, uh, [AT Pro Montrel 01:13:20], which was, uh, one of the division to- to ensure youth retention Montreal. I chaired, uh, [inaudible 01:13:30], pre-campaign. And then, uh, one day, Steven Cummings, uh, who was president of the federation called me, he said, "Sylva, can I talk to you?" I said, "Sure." And he said, "Listen, we'd like you to- to choose head of campaign or president of the federation." I said, "Listen, uh, (laughs) funny because there hasn't been any Sephardic presidents so far, let alone francophone." It was heavily English, Ashkenazi organization.
Sylvain Abitbol (01:14:14):
And I- I said, "Listen, I'm not the right guy for campaign, because to be campaign, you have to give a [inaudible 01:14:19]. So I would not be able at the time to set any example, but I'll- I'll take the challenge for the federation." And, uh, I became, uh, incoming president with Steven. And I got the presidency when the shit hit the fan on the community. It was the worst two years in terms of media covering. Uh, at the time, we had a, uh, a financing program for the Jewish school, which backfires on the Jewish community.
Henry Green (01:15:01):
What year was this?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:15:06):
Uh, 2001, I believe. And a lot of the media, uh, I was all over the place. Uh, our- one of our school had been firebombed. Uh, we had a scandal with, uh, a [Suntrade 01:15:18], because these journalists came out saying, uh, Suntrade give $1 million dollar a year to the Jews, who collect $43 million. A lot of back splash. Uh, then, I had- I had to sign a deal with the administer of- of, uh, of immigration to help the Argentinian Jews.
Sylvain Abitbol (01:15:38):
Again, media say, "The government is subcontracting to the Jews' immigration." So the fact of the matter was that it was a heavy, heavy two years. Uh, I remember that there had been weeks when I was not going to my office, so busy was I here. But at the same time, it was extremely rewarding. Uh, I tell you, uh, it was an amazing experience. Amazing experience. And, uh, after that, uh, I was involved in CIJA, which is the Canadian Israel and Jewish Advocacy organization. Then, uh, I was asked to- to restructure Congress, so I was named as co-president of Canadian Jewish Congress for two years.
Henry Green (01:16:44):
You were there during the restructuring?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:16:46):
I was the one who restructured the by-laws.
Henry Green (01:16:48):
This was the time with [Bernie Carver 01:16:49]? This period?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:16:50):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). I'm the one who did it. I went from a, uh, a nominating approach, I mean, uh, with a vote and everything. Listen, it was totally different, uh, by-laws. We- we changed the structure of Congress.
Henry Green (01:17:05):
And why did- why did you do this? Why did you- why was there a need to do this?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:17:10):
Why me, or why-
Henry Green (01:17:12):
Why- why was there a need to change the structure? I mean, you know-
Sylvain Abitbol (01:17:14):
Okay. Uh, listen-
Henry Green (01:17:15):
You- you lead the effort.
Sylvain Abitbol (01:17:16):
Yeah.
Henry Green (01:17:16):
But why did you?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:17:17):
At the time I'll tell you why. Uh, it was time when the, uh, the Jew- the organized Jewish institutions were suffering a lot of [inaudible 01:17:25]. We were not organized as Jews across country. We had Congress doing something, we had the Canada Israel committee doing something else, we had campus doing something else, we had... And then, we all- and Steven Cummings was president, and I was the incoming.
Sylvain Abitbol (01:17:42):
So we went to Toronto, and five of the most influential people in- of the Jewish community were there. I just happened to piggyback on Steven. It's not because I was anything else, I was the incoming president, so Steven said, "Come with me." So here I was, uh, surrounded by- by some of the most powerful man on the organized Jewish community. They put $1 million on the table to see how we could restructure. And, uh, so we worked hard, it was called the Cabinet at the time, putting, uh, in place a structure.
Sylvain Abitbol (01:18:24):
And I did all the analysis of all the- all the, uh, institutions in place. So the- the conclusion was we have to put, um, all under one umbrella organization, so that we'd have a common- a common message. We doubled the budget that those common organization had between thems. And- but we needed to be all under the same type of by-laws, rules and, uh, and everything. So Canada, Israel, uh, everything was okay, except for Congress. So my role was to make sure that Congress would also fall under the same type of, uh, structure.
Henry Green (01:19:06):
So you- you, sort of, put the- the by-laws' business plan together to- to restructure. In that period of years of, uh, uh, 1968 to, it was restructured about [inaudible 01:19:20] or something, uh, something like that. Did- did names like Eugene Rothman or, uh... [inaudible 01:19:26].
Sylvain Abitbol (01:19:25):
No.
Henry Green (01:19:28):
It- And he was the [inaudible 01:19:29] Canada Israel exchange.
Sylvain Abitbol (01:19:30):
I know the name, but never-
Henry Green (01:19:31):
But not, um... Or, um, a name like Haim Shaked. Does that ring a bell to you?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:19:37):
No. No.
Henry Green (01:19:39):
Um, so let me- let me try to, uh, draw back in terms of, uh, the core. And that is that your Sephardi identity, uh, how did it play a role in this, in this evolution?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:19:59):
Listen, I- I believe that I was al- always acting as a bridge. My- my- my- my goal in life is one community with different flavors. And I still- I'm still a strong, strong, strong proponent of building one community. And the community has changed since, uh, over the last few years. They have a lot of more Sephardi presidents within the federation. Uh, then, about a year ago, I was asked to- to chair the Sephardi division, which I did for my own reasons. Uh, my- my reasons at the time, and they still are, is the Sephardi community is changing.
Sylvain Abitbol (01:20:48):
It went from my generation, which came with baggage. I always see the suitcase is still half empty. Uh, with our own limitations building something. Our kids will have a way better life than we had in terms of financial, uh, support. Uh, and I realized that the new generation is extremely, extremely rich in terms of- of powerful ideas coming out. In terms of, I'm just connecting the dots as I- as I speak, I see some of the most important position with the Quebec society being held by Sephardi Jews.
Sylvain Abitbol (01:21:39):
I see tremendous success, financial success among some young people here in province. Uh, you will not realize how many people have their own plane and they're not 50, uh, how many doctors, and surgeon, and researchers among the Sephardi community. Peop- [inaudible 01:21:59] who are not affiliated with any structural- structural organization. So I said we cannot afford to have this- to let these people go. We had to get them back around the community.
Sylvain Abitbol (01:22:16):
The community's changing for a core Ashkenazi funding organization where we need dollars as we go along. The population is getting older, and we need a lot of the dollars. Those new dollars can only come from the emerging Sephardic rich people now, who do not contribute now to the federation. But the Jewish hospital has raised over $15 million from the Sephardi community. And this community contributes only $3 million a year to the campaign. So the money's there, but the trigger is missing. And I always say, "The Sephardic will give $5,000 to buy you [inaudible 01:23:06], and will give $500 to the campaign." So the money's there. I've calculated the amount of money that is given. It's amazing. So we have to find a way to [inaudible 01:23:21] this money back to federation, get these people also involved in the community infrastructure. So that's why I decide to take that challenge.
Henry Green (01:23:31):
So let me ask you a question. Um, in Israel, when the, um, Sephardi, [inaudible 01:23:38], Babylonian [crosstalk 01:23:39]
Sylvain Abitbol (01:23:38):
Yeah.
Henry Green (01:23:40):
Um, you were living in Morocco, I'm sure you've heard stories-
Sylvain Abitbol (01:23:45):
Yeah.
Henry Green (01:23:45):
... Of Moroccan Jews coming and put in [inaudible 01:23:47].
Sylvain Abitbol (01:23:47):
Yeah.
Henry Green (01:23:48):
And- and there was this whole, um, feeling with the second generation-
Sylvain Abitbol (01:23:53):
Yeah.
Henry Green (01:23:54):
... Uh, of discrimination.
Sylvain Abitbol (01:23:55):
Yeah. And there was discrimination.
Henry Green (01:23:56):
And- and we can talk about that in a second. But when the Sephardi came to Montreal, there was also this feeling of discrimination in the sense that the Ashkenazim, um, you know, uh, didn't really, a- appreciate or understand them. Um, is there a parallel here?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:24:16):
No, not as much. Not as crucial. Uh, not as crucial. I- I think it was more of a communication situation, and culture. But people were still build to live within the community if you want. In Israel, it was different because you had people who had- who were somebody in Morocco, and just... With no consideration.
Henry Green (01:24:46):
In Montreal, it wasn't?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:24:49):
No. I- I would- I- No, I wouldn't say that. No, no. No, no.
Henry Green (01:24:52):
But- but yet, in terms of, um, here's this community coming- beginning, uh, in the late, uh, late- late '50s, people like [Claud la Free 01:25:02], for example.
Sylvain Abitbol (01:25:01):
Yeah.
Henry Green (01:25:03):
Um, so that's 50 years ago. And- and yet you're saying that it's only now, as it were, they're giving $15 million to the hospital, but only giving-
Sylvain Abitbol (01:25:13):
Yeah, but you know what? Don't forget the majority of these people came with almost no money or just enough money to s- to set up for life. I mean, to- to educate their children. So the first generation's call was exclusively to giving education to their children. Very, very few people were in business. I mean, bus- I mean, like, business. I'm not talking about [foreign language 01:25:34]. Uh, yeah, yeah, some [foreign language 01:25:37]. Like, you know, real [inaudible 01:25:39] a lot of money. Uh now it's happening. Now it's happening.
Henry Green (01:25:44):
And is the- where the Sephardi identity was very strong with that community-
Sylvain Abitbol (01:25:48):
Yes.
Henry Green (01:25:49):
... That came, did it become more diluted with the second generation?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:25:53):
I- I wouldn't- I- I- No, I don't think so. You know, I'll tell you, I think the fact that the Jews were forced to go to [inaudible 01:26:02] gave them two worlds to navigate from, the English world and the French world. So when you- when you have a duality in your mind, you see- it's amazing what you can do. Uh, when you can- when you can go from one system to another, your mind gives you more ability than you have only one mind, one track.
Sylvain Abitbol (01:26:27):
And which is why we Jews are successful wherever we are, because, you know, we always navigate between two or three worlds. I was in Morocco where, you know, you have a Muslim world, you have the Christian world, and you have the Jewish world. We're always, you know, going from one system to another, one perception of time to another. I mean, uh, the Islamic ways, [Arabic 01:26:46], everything is not of God. [inaudible 01:26:48]
Sylvain Abitbol (01:26:50):
So you have the Jews- Jewish way, you have the Christian, and, you know, the ability to navigate gives a lot of strength to- to an individual. And I think that my kids' generation or those who are younger than me will change the, uh, the face of the Sephardi community.
Henry Green (01:27:12):
Do you think that that generation will also lead to more reconciliation with Muslims in Morocco or places like that?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:27:20):
Uh, listen, there have been a lot of- of, uh, of projects that we tried. The problem is we still have the conflict of the Middle-East as a thorn between the two communities. Uh, although, there is a natural tendency of understanding between Moroccan Muslims and Moroccan Jews, even my generation because they were raised like, you know, as descendants of Moroccan Jews. Uh, there is, kind of, a natural, not osmosis, a natural, uh, understanding, if you want. But as long as we have a conflict between Israel and its neighbors, I don't think we'll have a real friendship. But we could.
Henry Green (01:28:32):
What about Muslims and, uh, Jews in Montreal, Sephardi in Montreal?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:28:36):
That's what- I'm talking about that.
Henry Green (01:28:37):
In Montreal?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:28:38):
Yeah. But there is no... Listen, you have to understand the Muslim community in Montreal is not as organized as the Jewish community, so you don't have a central body that you can talk to.
Henry Green (01:28:51):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Sylvain Abitbol (01:28:52):
Even for to exchange programs. So even if you want to a- a double program where you can have talk shows and exchange of ideas, running some programs together, you don't have a centralized structured Arabic organization. And that's a fact that even the Arabs deplore.
Henry Green (01:29:13):
So let me turn to Israel then, what has been your connection to Israel?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:29:20):
I- I think my mother gave me a Israel [inaudible 01:29:23].
Henry Green (01:29:26):
When did you first visit Israel?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:29:29):
In 1971.
Henry Green (01:29:37):
On a mission or [crosstalk 01:29:38]?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:29:38):
No, on a- a- I was a student, I was with my friends. And then, I kept on going back. And of course when I got involved in the community, I did a lot of missions, a lot of trips.
Henry Green (01:29:53):
Did you take your wife, your kids?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:29:55):
Yeah.
Henry Green (01:29:57):
Do- do they speak Hebrew?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:29:59):
My kids, of course, speak Hebrew. I speak Hebrew. My wife, no. Uh, but we love Israel. Plain and simply.
Henry Green (01:30:07):
Uh, when your children were Bat and Bar or Bat Mitzvah, was it in Montreal?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:30:13):
Yeah, Mo- Montreal.
Henry Green (01:30:15):
Montreal. So let me- let me ask you some final questions then. Um, is there any part of your Sephardic background that stands out for you?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:30:28):
Yeah, I think so. And I... It's hard to define what is Sephardic. It's a- it's a state of mind, I think. It should look at life. Uh, you know what? I'll- I'll- I'll give you the big difference. You go to a... I mean, Sephardi don't have multi-domin- denomination synagogues, they have one synagogue. They're all Orthodox. You go to a Sephardic's synagogue, and you'll have people, ultra Orthodox people, and people with a tattoo, someone with an earring, someone who drive to [inaudible 01:31:07] on Shabbat, and someone who work and work without... Everything in one thing.
Sylvain Abitbol (01:31:12):
Whereas on the Ashkenazi side, you would have different type of synagogue depending on your own belief system. Uh, which means that there was more flexibility in how you view Judaism as a Sephardic, as if you were an Ashkenazi. In my- in my mind, in Ashkenazi you have it's all or nothing. You're either ultra Orthodox or Jewish with traditions. Whereas Sephardic, like I said, I don't eat non-Kosher food and I drive to shawl. Go make sense.
Henry Green (01:32:01):
How would you describe yourself in terms of your identity?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:32:09):
I- I think it's a multi facet identity. It's like a chameleon. Uh, I could be with an Arab, I'll become an Arab. I can talk to you as an American, totally Western. I can have a fully philosophical conversation on Western values and you would not see the difference. I think it's the ability to go from one state of mind to another. And, uh, I- I was at, uh, in- in, uh, Dubai and Abu Dhabi for business with- from, uh, partners from France. And one of them said, "So Abitbol, we saw a metamorphosis in your attitude."
Sylvain Abitbol (01:32:55):
You know, we're dealing everyday, and then we met the Sheik, everything else different. Everything changes, the way you talk, the way you behave, the gesture and the contact, the touching, as opposed to, you know, it's just the ability to adapt automatically, almost instinctively to a s- a- a certain situation. I'm sure you understanding what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1 (01:33:21):
Definitely.
Henry Green (01:33:23):
Would you consider yourself a refug- refugee, or an [foreign language 01:33:25], or a immigrant? How would you do- define yourself?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:33:29):
Well, the- it depends on the definition. Uh, if a refugee is someone who was forced to leave because of any kind of set of circumstances, then I am a refugee. Except, uh, it's on- it's only a- a- a name, it's not an attitude. So by name, by definition, I could be a refugee, but, uh, that- that didn't stop me from, uh, acting as an immigrant.
Henry Green (01:33:56):
What identity do you want to pass onto your children?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:34:01):
The ability to choose for themselves. To define, to decide who they are, who they want to be, and by give them- by giving them as much love and respect as I can.
Henry Green (01:34:14):
Where do you consider home?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:34:20):
Israel.
Henry Green (01:34:26):
So let me, um, ask you one last... Well, two questions. The first is, have you gone back to Morocco?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:34:32):
Yeah.
Henry Green (01:34:33):
Once or so?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:34:34):
Oh, many times for business, trying to do business.
Henry Green (01:34:36):
And what's the reception when you go back?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:34:39):
Very warm. I tell you, I was surprised.
Henry Green (01:34:45):
Have you taken your kids back?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:34:46):
Uh, no. Although they would. Uh, my- well, my son went back for Hillula. He had never been to Morocco. He loved it. It wasn't with me, he went with another group. Uh, but otherwise, no.
Henry Green (01:35:00):
So one last question, what message would you like to give to anyone who might listen to this interview?
Sylvain Abitbol (01:35:07):
Life is beautiful. [inaudible 01:35:08]
Henry Green (01:35:08):
[French 01:35:08].
Sylvain Abitbol (01:35:08):
Pleasure.
PART 4 OF 4 ENDS [01:35:14]