Cleaned by Rebecca Lash
Transcribed by 

Interview date: 1/11/2017

Interviewer: Lisette Shashoua

Location: Montreal, Canada

Total time: 2:09:10

I = interviewer

S = Steve Acre

Steve Acre: Born in Baghdad, Iraq, 1932. Arrived in Israel in 1949. Settled in Montreal circa 1957.


Interview begins 00:00:15


I: Hello, welcome to Sephardi Voices


S: Hi


I: Thank you for participating in this project. Could you give us your full name please?


S: Okay, my original name is Sabih Azra Ereb. Now it’s Steve Acre.


I: Okay, so Sabih Azra Ereb was your birth name.


S: Right


I: And you were born.. When were you born?


S: I was born in Baghdad in 1932. I’m one of 9 children and I’m number 7.


I: Lovely..  uh, that’s the next question. I was going to ask you about your family’s background maybe we could start with your grandparents.


S: Sure, well my father actually married my mother in Basra, Southern Iraq, and that was a story by itself, if I may just take [regress] for a minute.


I:(inaudible 00:01:15)


S: Okay, the marriage was actually a mistake and I’ll tell you why. My Father at the time had a partner it the name of Sadam Khatan in Basra, and they had some ships transporting goods to India. One day my father was visiting there and a girl served them coffee, and or tea, whatever, I don’t remember exactly the story but, he liked what he saw- my father, so he mentioned after that to his partner that he would like to become a member of the family. That’s the way they talked in those days. And Sadam Khatan thought he was talking about his daughter, but the person who brought the coffee, the tea was not his daughter. 

So they arrange for the wedding… My father almost had a heart attack because it was a girl of about 13 and a half years old. Her name is Shafiqa, and he was about 38 years old. That was his second marriage. He was 6 foot tall, very strong, and here it is not the girl that he was meant to marry. He thought he’s marrying Sadam’s sister- Toba. she was at the time like 20 years old but Sadam Khatan made a mistake and he thought that he talked about his daughter. And that’s really how my father and mother got married, and for the first few weeks she refused to go to his room and sleep with him, she was afraid. It’s really.. It’s unbelievable but this is a true story. And after that of course they got together, and unfortunately she had couple of miscarriages, then she a still born until my first sister was born Habiba in 1918. She was the first one. My mother was born in 1900 so you can imagine how young she was at the time. And um, unfortunately when the first world war started my father lost 5 of his ships that he used to have, to own. There was no insurance in those days for wars. And then a few months later he had the biggest warehouse in Basra which went on fire and everything was destroyed. No insurance.. Maybe that’s why I became an insurance man myself after that. And my father refused to go bankrupt because that was not the thing to do, it was not honourable. So he sold all his assets, all my mother’s jewelry and everything. Until he paid to the last cent for everybody, because people used to come to say “here a hundred thousand dollar of merchandise inside” and he couldn’t say no or yes because you didn’t know what’s in the warehouse. I mean I insured warehouses here in Montreal, you would never know what’s inside. We insure to a certain limit but we don’t know what’s inside the warehouse. So he was really broken after the first world war, and in about 1925 he moved from Basra to Baghdad and that’s where my other two sisters and myself were born after that. And unfortunately he died early in 1938 when he was 64 years old and my mother was only 38, and she had 9 children and my youngest brother was only 8 months old at the time, and believe me that was tough. So my older brother Edmond, he was at the time 17 before finishing Alliance, he left school, he got 2 jobs, during the day and during the night in order to help the family to survive.


00:05:12:06


I: What did he do?


S: He worked in a… well I had an aunt, her name is Chahala Haim [Arabic speech] you may know her because she is the grandmother of Salim Haim. That was my aunt and she helped in the beginning. She used to own with other partners 3 movie theatres in Baghdad- Alwatany and Rafiden [ph], the one for the summer that you had also in the other side of the dijula [ph]. So they gave Edmond a job


I: Resapha [ph]


S: Yeah, at the other side 


I: Resapha is where we lived, Khaf [ph]was on the other side.


S: On the other side, I don’t remember what you call it now honestly. But this is like mostly in the summer that you sit outside it’s an outdoor Cinema, so they own that also. So they gave Edmond a job, inside, and to me it was great because of him, in the summer I used to work there for free and what I did is, I went to the projection room and I was doing the translation from English to Arabic, in those days, If you remember, it wasn’t written on the screen, it was on the side and you had to roll it. So as they’re talking in English you roll the Arabic translation, so after a while I knew everything by heart like from A to Z. Because you’ve done it so many times. It was in the summer, instead of going to Beirut like other people used to go, I used to work in the Cinema. Alwatany.


00:06:54:15


I: How old were you?

S: I was about 14, 13..13, 14. So that was my summer vacations 


I: That is a beautiful memory.


S: Yeah, so that was part of it. So anyway I’ll tell you more about it as you want me to have your questions. 


I: Continue if you have something.


S: Alright, umm, what shall I tell you?.. 19.. Things were going ok. We were living in a place called Dahana [ph] which was a mixture of Jewish, Arabs and Mus- and Christians 


I: What was it called?


S: Dahana. In other words Dahana in Arabic is like Dehen [ph] which is oil. in other words it’s a Shook [ph], that they sell all sorts of stuff like that and there were a few houses. But as you may know that in Baghdad because it doesn’t rain in the summer the roof are flat and we sleep on top of the roof, but then you can go from house to house one after the other. My brother at the time got another job in 1940, when the war started with the British intelligence service, as an Arab we call it “Muhabarat” [ph] and he was sent to Mosul, and from what we hear after that, he captured a few German spies that were parachuted from Syria. Because if you recall Syria became under the Vichy Government in the second world war. Because when Paris fell and France was taken by the Germans so all the satellite countries which was Syria was under like the French rule as a dominant, so the Germans were already there. So they were sending airplanes to Mosul or around in the north to drop some German spies, and since my brother was working there with the British intelligence so he had horses, he had all kind of things like that, he became very friendly with Sheikh Barazany.. As a matter of fact with the son of Barazany, they..  they, he cut his finger and he cut his finger and they became like blood brothers. So he got a lot of help from them to catch these people, and he stayed with them till 1945. He used to come to Baghdad, and this is the only person I knew as a Jewish guy who used to walk actually with musadas [ph], he had a revolver on him so that he can actually, people could see that he had a revolver. I mean what kind of a Jewish person in Baghdad will have that?! But because of his situation, he was like in the rank of a captain but as a civilian. Anyway, in 1941 things were getting a little bit rough because of the uh, the Nazi Party that took over the government. At the time we are all scared, we don’t know what really going to happen. I was only 9 years old at the time. My brother came to my mother one day, I think it was some time at the end of May, and he was warning her that things are gonna get worse within a week or two. Because if you remember from the history of that time, the last 30 days. 40 days the king had to be lifted to Jordan. there was like a “coup d’ etat” in order to kill him, it was like that so everything was like a mix up and unfortunately on June the first, 1941, we suddenly heard people shouting and yelling outside our houses. We had a tree- Nahla at the beginning of the house, and I climbed the tree. And.. it’s about 15 feet high and I was hiding between to see what is happening outside. And I saw a lot of men with swords in their hands, with rifles and what kind things(?) and they’re shouting “Aktab El Yahood, Itbah El Yahood [ph]”, “Kill the Jews, kill the Jews” and I was saying to myself “what the hell did I do as a 9 year old that they want to come kill me?!” My mother suddenly realized I was not downstairs so she was calling “Sabih, wenak, wenak?”. I was afraid to answer her because I was in the tree and they may hear me from outside, because these guys who had rifles, they were shooting in the air and you didn’t know a bullet could come hit you right there. But what I saw was our landlord who was our next door neighbour at the time, he wore green hat let’s call it because he was a Haji [ph]. at the time in those days when you’re going to Mecca and became a haji it was a big thing, we even called him Haji, we didn’t even call him by his name. And I saw that he add a chair in front of our house when the whole mob came in they stopped right in front of him, and they were talking to him, but of course I couldn’t hear what they said, I only found out later that when they came they wanted to go into our house he told them that there was a woman with 9.. She is a widow with 9 children and she asked for his protection. If they want to go and get them they have to kill him first. So we were saved by this Muslim haji thank god there were some good people like that. Then they went to our neighbours and I could hear the screams of women being raped, mutilated.. [sniffles]Anyway, after about an hour I came down, my mother said “where were you?” so I told her.. She she.. slapped me because she was worried for a whole hour 


00:13:11:19


I: you could see them raping the women?


S: No, but you could hear the screams. I didn’t even know what rape was until I grew up. All I knew from my mother saying “Suhmo [ph]” [sniffs]. Then after what they did to our neighbours, they set the houses on fire and that went all night, so the landlord asked my mother not to send any of us outside. If we need anything, him or his sons will go to the shook to buy things for us.


I: Now sorry, when they burned the homes the people were in it?


S: Yes 


I: They burned them alive?


S: I don’t know if they were all alive but all we know because what they did is if they saw a radio they took it, if they saw something interesting they took furniture and things like that and they set the house on fire. But again all night like you heard people screaming and yelling, crying.. And you couldn’t do anything. There were some people we saw that were jumping from house to house, running away, and we were saved from that whole street we were the only ones who were saved actually really. 


I: And you knew all your neighbours?


S: Sure


I: And they were all Jewish?


S: Mostly. We had Jewish people, Christian people.. uh Two, three doors outside we had a Muslim family. I used to play with them, with their children sometimes. We used to play gula [ph] you know what they call it in English


I: Marbles


S: The Marbles, thank you. So this is really one infamous day that sha- [sniffs] I never shall forget. After I realized that this is no place for me. Uh, a year later my cousin came from Basra. His name is Freddy Khatan, he changed his name to Yoav, I mean he changed his name later because that was his name in the underground, in the Mahteret [ph] He was one of the guys who actually started the Mahteret or the T’nua [ph] as we call it. The underground movement in Baghdad and Basra with other people like with Ben Porat in Israel, maybe some people know who it is. And Yoav stayed in our house for a while, then my other brother Joseph joined but I couldn’t join because I was still young. I only joined the Mahteret later when I was 16 years old, because we figured at the time we’re not gonna have that again happening to us as the Farhud because if another time it’s gonna happen, we’re gonna have to be ready, because we were not ready in 1941. We thought that everything was good “we are Iraqis, we are citizens” there is a police that would protect us. That was not so.


I: it’s the police who attacked-


S: Police were a part of them. Few days before the Farhood actually I saw a Hamsa somebody put like their hand with red on our door and I asked my mother, “What is that?” “well” she said “maybe somebody just..


00:16:48:35


I: Made a mistake..


S: Made a mistake, or they think that we’re Jewish people or something. But they were actually mentioning all the Jewish homes a few days before the Farhud. Because they were planning for something like that to happen. Anyway.. At the time, 1941-1942, as you probably know the British army had a lot of soldiers coming through Baghdad and  Mosul, because they were going to Palestine, they were going to India and so on and so forth.. And as they were coming back from Palestine also the Mahteret got in touch with them where the Jewish people in Israel at the time. Some of us… they took some of the Jewish men and women, young ones, on their busses and they took them to Haifa. They were like part of the British army, they were dressed like them, they are working for them and then they took them there, and I was hoping to go also, so in 1943, 44, many many nights I was waiting with a little satchel in my hand, maybe they will call on me at midnight to take me also.


I: So you were 11 years old by then.


S: 11, that’s right, 11 years old. So all this is in you and you’re sitting on like, like a bombshell. You don’t know what’s tomorrow. Going to school, to go to alliance I had to go through the Hanah [ph] and took altered streets and many times I didn’t even know if I were gonna come home alive or injured because they used to throw stones at you or they called you a dirty Jew, whatever.. “Yahoodi, Yahoodi” and they went after you so you started to run. You know how to run fast [sighs]. As the years went by 1947 came in.. and we-


I: Can we back track just a bit?


S: Sure..


I: Just to go back (inaudible) to your grandparents. Do you know anything about your grandparents? Do you have any vivid memories…(inaudible 00:19:09)


S: Well all I remember is my Mother’s father like my grandma because my father’s family left Iraq in the 1800, 18.. Around that time to Egypt, so the only one I knew was his sister- Chahala. But all the others- brothers, sisters, whatever, they were all in Egypt.


I: Chahala is the grandmother of Salim Haim?


S: That’s right. Her name is Rachel. Rachel but also Chahala, that’s why the granddaughter- Rachel, which is Salim’s sister is on her name. Okay? Rachel. and I remember Chahala very well because she died I think 1946 or 45 and my mother use to take me to go visit her at the hospital, so this is how I remember Chahala. But anyway Asalam Khatan- that was my mother’s father, he stayed with once for a couple of months in Baghdad, he was doing some business so he stayed at our house, that’s how I came to know him.


I: He was living in Egypt?


S: No, He was in Basra because he comes from Basra, but he came to Baghdad for some business and he stayed with us for a couple of months, then when I escaped in 1949, first from Bagdad to Basra, I dressed up like an Arab, I think I have a picture of that, and then in Basra I stayed for 3 weeks, with my aunt and I tried 3 times to cross the border, Shatt al Arab, to the other side of Persia. The first 2 times we were almost caught, the third time they were successful, there 16 of us


00:20:38:19


I: All young people?


S: All young, between 16 to 25 men. And that was really something because the third time there was an Arab who we paid for who took us in a small truck and we’re driving to the border, but from far he saw the police, the border police is coming, so he stopped, he says “get out of here, he says, I’ll come pick you up in a couple of hours”. We ran outside, we hid under the bushes and he continued so the police ran after him, and they caught him in the end, far away, but his truck was empty because we were out, but he never came back to us, so we’re stuck here, out of nowhere, 16 men, but some of the guys knew how to look at the stars, where is north, where is east [sniffs] so we walked at night and we hid during the day, for 2 days.


I: So you were heading…


S: East, we go to Iran…


I: To Iran…


S: We can’t west, we’ll be Jordan, we can’t do that.


I: Yeah…


S: So um, on the third day we found some felahim [ph] some farmers and my brother who is older than me at the time Joseph was with me and the other men, made a deal with them, they paid them in golden coins to take us across the river, but for 2 nights we had to stay on the farm, they brought us food, they brought us bread and rice, and on the third night they put us in a long balam [ph] like little boat but narrow boat, we lie down, they put hay on top of us.


00:22:23:19


I: So they knew you were Jewish?


S: Sure. And they crossed the.. They knew what time the Coastguard  comes in and they took us about 2 in the morning across to the other side, and on the other side the Jewish people in Iran in the Mahteret, in the T’nua every night for 7 days a week they were waiting who ever comes in. They had like waiting say from midnight to 4 o’clock in the morning. So as we arrived the people were there, they took us and they put us in different Jewish homes.


I: What if you have arrived during the day like when you were running away with the-


S: How can.. How can you cross the river during the day?! They’ll find you.


I: so it was illegal even then.


S: Of course, if we were caught we would be in prison, and it’s ridiculous but that’s the way it is. We know a lot of people got caught, either from there or they went through Hanatein [ph] in the north because it happened also. So anyway they put us in Abadan at different homes and a week later they came, they picked us up they put us on a train to Ahvaz, from Ahvaz we stayed 3 days, from there put us on a train again, they took us to Teheran, and that was the first time that I saw snow in my life on the way to Teheran, because in Baghdad there was no snow. In Teheran they took us to the Jewish cemetery and that’s where the refugees, the Jewish refugees were being held at the Jewish Cemetery in Teheran. So they had like one set places where about 50, 60 people sleeping in the same place… we had nothing, we came like with our shirts, no gloves, no boots, nothing. And yet it was cold but we were young and and we survived [sniffs]. I stayed there for about 4, 5 weeks and then one day they picked me up with other people, they said, they took a picture, they said “now you’re a family” and they gave us like “laisser passer” because even flying from Teheran going out as Jewish refugees we’re not allowed to going go to say “we’re going to Israel” so refugees going to Cyprus. So if anyone asks us at the airport “where are you going to” we’re going to Cyprus” so suddenly I had a family like with 3 guys with someone older than me, a woman older than me to be like my parents, they put us on a airplane and we took off. When they were over Syria they take a left turn, came to Lydda airport, deposited us and 5 minutes later they took left to Cyprus, that’s the way it was supposed to be and they get back to Teheran to pick up more people. And that’s my story so far, that was in December, 1949. 


00:25:21:17


I: I’d like to backtrack a little to when you with Ya’akov, Ya’akov Khatam 


S: Yes.. Yoav


In: Yoav. when you were in Iraq, when you were in the movement, how did you get in the movement?


S: Because my brother and Yoav themselves were leaders in the Mahteret so I was allowed to come in.


I: What is the Mahteret?


S: Mahteret- that’s a Hebrew word, that’s the underground, let’s call it. Like a group of underground people umm how shall I call it.. It’s something like “hidden under”.


I: Yes.


S: Okay?


I: Now can you tell me a little bit about that?


S: well, different people…


I: What were you trained as?


S: Well, that’s right, different people were trained for different things. I was trained in the topographic maps for example: to go in our street, and I count how many steps let’s say from our door to the corner, if there is a little hill, if there’s a step down, who’s on my right, who’s on my left and so on. So in case I had to run away so I know I can even do it when I’m even in the dark, to know that I can make a hundred steps and I can right and there is a little alley or something like that, okay? So this is called topographic map. So the whole area let’s say here Mount Royal, we’re sitting so I will do within a 500 yards from here to map every little inch there is here. What kind of house, what kind of shop, what kind of.. Who’s there, who’s here. Okay, so this is my training. But other people trained in different things. Idek as we call, let’s say in let’s say as we call Jujitsu, what do you call it? Like Krav Maga.


I: Judo


S: Judo. Some people were trained in arms, rifles and things like that or musadas [ph] guns, so different people were trained in different ways. So I was trained in the topographic mapping which always helps in anywhere in the world that you’re traveling, to know where you’re going, and that’s what I was trained. But I’ll tell you what happened in 1948. When Israel was created in 1948, between 47, November 1947 to 1948, there were lots of.. um lots of people in Iraq were against the Jewish people because they thought now we were becoming spies for Israel, even before the independence day of May 15. Now, we knew 1948 because the Arabs were saying “we’re gonna come and get you” in other words like the same that happen like the Farhud in 1941. My brother and I, we used to have a store, something like a little depanneur and I used to go there after school or early 5:30 in the morning to help. We used to sell also wine. I took 20 bottles, empty bottles and I was preparing them with, to make them Molotov cocktail, because we were afraid in 1948 that we were gonna be attacked. My brother Edmond was not in Montreal, not Montreal, he was not in Baghdad, my brother Joseph and David, both of them were out of the house, we talk now May 1948. We’re going to defend other places so I was the only one left at the house to defend our house with my mother and 4 sisters and my younger brother


00:29:13:34 


I: Sisters older than you?


S: Pardon?


I: Your sisters were older than you?


S: 3 were older 1 is younger. Now in the meantime from the Mahteret, from the T’nua we hid in our house some ammunitions, like you build a “Slick” as we call it, and if you recall in Baghdad the floor was not wood like we have here in Canada but you had tiles on top of earth, so we take 4 big tiles, you dig, let’s say you dig 3 feet deep, you make like a cylinder and you put tin around it and you put anything that you want. At the time I had 1 Sten gun and 2 clip..


I: The gun you got from the Mahteret? 


S: That’s right. I had 1 revolver with about 36 bullets and I had 4 hand grenades and they were all hidden here closed with the tiles, so nobody can see from outside but I knew if I walked this way which tile I have to take out. Now, so 1940 comes in and there was decree from the government that anyone that will be found with guns or munitions, things like that will go to jail, doesn’t matter whether you’re Jew or Arab or whatever. You know, it was a military decree. So from that point of view at least one thing happen that they they were not gonna attack us, so luckily I took all the bottles that I had on the roof down to the floor and l took it back to the store


I: The bottles had uh- 


S: I was preparing them to become Molotov Cocktails 


I: But you didn’t (unclear)...

S: I didn’t, I didn’t because you can’t just leave it on the roof you know with liquids with all these things. With cotton, and everything, so you prepare, you have the bottles ready, you have the fluid on the side, when you need it you do it on the spot, within a minute you can have one.


I: How do you do a Molotov cocktail?


S: Well, so let’s say you have a bottle, add the kerosene, or things like that, you put a key like something to light it, you light and as soon as you light it you throw it done and it explodes, so you have a fire, okay? Because you have the kerosene inside. Now we were lucky that, and I said, I took the bottles downstairs because otherwise if they would have found that I have so many bottles waiting, we’ll be in trouble, and we were one of the first houses to be searched by the police on May the 16, 1948.


I: So a day after the creation of Israel…


S: That’s right. Why did they come to us?! A. because my brother, Edmond, they knew he was working with the British muhabarat, so there is something there. And many times they knew, many people would come to our house and we’d go out. So we were one of the first ones. Now, we were lucky, my sister, I had one sister older than me, her name was Hilda. I had the revolver to be cleaned about half an hour before they came to our house and I didn’t have time to put it back into the slick. But the slick was closed, so when we saw the police cars surrounding our house, she had the brain to take the revolver, tie it around her waist. She put a robe under her, over her, she sat in the living room with a book to read. So when they, the police came to our house she was sitting there. They didn’t ask to frisk her or anything like that. They searched every house, the whole house, with knives they took and they ripped sofas, pillows, whatever they thought if we had anything hiding. They went even to the garden we had in the back, they were digging to see if we’re hiding something and thank god they didn’t find the slick. If they had found the slick in our house I wouldn’t be here talking to you. But there was something that happened couple of days before, I was telling my brother at the time, “what would’ve happened if God forbid there is an attack on us and I’m alone looking after my mother, four sisters and my younger brother and I have Molotov cocktail, I have hand four grenades, whatever, what am I gonna do after that if I’m overrun?”. So he looks at me and he says “if that happens and you don’t our mother and sisters to be raped and mutilated, you will know what to do…. But thank god it didn’t come to that.


00:34:30:26


I: So God forbid that they come in when they came to search, what could you have done? You didn’t have the hand grenade or..


S: No, no but if the police came you can’t do anything. I was saying if there was an attack


I: Like the Farhud


S: Like the Farhud anyway, things didn’t happen, thank God, so I didn’t have to use the revolver and commit suicide and to kill my family [sniffs]. But then, honestly I couldn’t even go to school anymore. I just felt I can’t, I can’t be in that country anymore. Also I was afraid…


I: When? When?


S: 1948.


I: Ok so you were now 16?


S: Yeah, I was in my first year, I think I went to Shamash..


I: Can I just ask, to school..


S: Sure


I: you went to Alliance Française 


S: Correct.


I: At the Alliance Française you stayed until 48?


S: oh, definitely. 


I: Ok, so when did you go to Shamash?


S: When I finished 48 I went to Shamash.


I: Where was Shamash?


S: In Baghdad. 


I: I know, but where was the building?


S: Good god, I don’t remember the name of the street [laughs].


I: It’s not, it wasn’t a part of (inaudible 00:36:03)


S: No, absolutely not, that’s after, but at the time was in itself. Frank Iny by itself, Alliance by itself and Shamash by itself. So what happened here is this, also we had somebody else in the name of Khalastchy [ph] that somehow in 1948, somehow happened.. he used to be in the T’nua, in the Mahteret, in the underground himself. Something happened that he got mixed up in something, and he went to the police to spill the beans. Okay? So when you spill the beans on someone, Let’s say Lisette is in the T’nua, and they come and they start torturing you and you tell about 3 people who are together with you in the group.


I: (inaudible) only 4.


S: 4. 


I: you only knew about 3 others.


S: Correct, and of course the person who, the director, who you know.. Who you made the contract with. So for 1 to 1 they found maybe names, whatever, they started going from different homes and picking up people, take them to jail. So I was then scared that in case somebody will recognise me and they say “Sabih is in the T’nua” so I was afraid to go even to school. Now you understand the.. What’s happening before all of this. It may be just an exaggeration that I thought it may be, if you never know when you are 16, 17 years old and things are happening around you so you start feeling “Hello” Like something on my head they’re gonna be saying “aha, he’s the one”. So I stopped going to school. And I had to make arrangements to get the hell out of there. And this is why [coughs] excuse me. A few months later in 1949 I managed with my brother Joseph to escape. Because I just couldn’t even go to school and study anymore. It was so much that what if if they catch you? Because if they catch you, they gonna pull your nails, they gonna take hot wires put it under your legs, whatever. I mean, we lived in a carada [ph] I don’t know if you know the places, carada, not far from police station, and for god sake, how many times at night you hear the screams of people being tortured? So how can you live like that? No way! So I mean, I’m glad I was able to escape and make something out of it after all, but these things in your head you can never forget, ever [sniffs]. Bon. 


00:38:37:35


I: Bon. Your mother now, and your sister..


S: Yes..


I: When did they leave?


S: Okay, everybody left, the government in did Iraq is this, mid 1950’s they came up with a new law or a new idea and they said “whoever wants to register, to leave Iraq, to give up their citizenship, they can do so” I think you probably remember that because you were there. I wasn’t there. So everybody else, everybody went to register except my brother Edmond, because he knew it was a trick, and lucky.


I: (unclear)


S: he was party with the British Intelligence. 


I: Didn’t you go out with him? 


S: No, I went with Joseph, not with Edmond.


I: Edmond was the older one


S: The older one, that’s right. There was Edmond, David, Joseph and then me, and then Robert, we were 5 boys. So he did not register, so he kept his job, but everybody else registered, and I understand from the whole history that you had a few months later, people were registered, they were, waiting, waiting, waiting and the (inaudible) came. Whoever registered, now that means you’re not a citizen anymore and they took your properties, whatever.


I: They de-nationalized


S: Correct. And this when I was already in Israel, working the air force, and at the time I was working in the tower at Lyddah airport when I was a flight controller.


I: (inaudible 00:40:27).


S: Sure. Sure. I came to Israel in December, In April I was 17 and a half or going to be 18, I was drafted already.


I: In the Army.


S: In the Army, of course, and after my training in the army, 2, 3 months that they assign you to a different place you were at the air force, in the Navy, you know, different places. I was lucky that I was sent to the air force, I wanted to become a pilot but because of my eyes, I was, my right eye is not the same as my left eye because I cannot see in depth very well, so they said “ you cannot become a pilot” so the best thing to do, I took of course, flight control, and that was the first course in Israel, that I was in it. And I was very proud to be the first in.. in country, and I have a picture of that. So what happen when.. And we were since the airplanes were coming from the Iraqi Jewish people, they needed more people to work at the flying tower, because they didn’t have enough people. So the airforce lent us, 5 of us, lent 5 of us from the airforce to work at Lyddah airport for about 6 months, until all the Aliyah came in. and this is how I found out when my family arrived, when some friends arrived, because you ask the people as they coming down “do you, where do you come from?” “oh I’m from Basra, I’m from here, I’m from there”. Cause they’re all together. And that’s how I found out when my family arrived and where they were sent, to Sha’ar Aliyah which is near Haifa, and a week later I took a pass for 2 days and I came to Sha’ar Aliyah to look for my family.


I: So just walking the streets? Sha’ar Aliyah


S: No Sha’ar Aliyah is the Ma’abara-a big one for the refugees.


I: So for the uninformed, what is a Ma’abara?


S: Ma’abara is like a refugee camp, so you come in and you go to the office and you ask family so and so, they say “well, go 20 tents and turn left, 2 tents…” ot whatever, because they’re all tents.


I: (inaudible) tents…


S: so I start going I was dressed as a- I was in the army, I was a sargent already. I’m dressed up and I go, and I hear my mother talking [sniffs]


I: (inaudible)


S: Honestly, Lisette you wouldn’t believe, I can’t describe the feeling… I don’t know if there are words in English to describe the feeling [clears throat] after all these years. But it was fun, we met..


I: what are the words in Arabic?


S: I can’t think, this is really traumatic…. to find your own people after so many, after a year and a half in a refugee camp, you do a search, but unfortunately my brother Edmond didn’t come at the time because he remained in Baghdad, and that was a long story after, when he left.


I: You have to tell us about it.


S: Well..


I: But not now.


S: Ok, some other time


I: No, no, I mean today but…not-


S: Ok


I: So your mom, so you heard your mom, it was like hearing someone coming back from another world.


S: I went in I saw my mother, couple of sisters were there, my younger brother. So it was really like a festive day that day. So I went back to the base and I stayed in the air force for 2 extra years, I stayed 4 years in the air force and then I left, and uh from there I was.. Let’s call it elected, it was actually arranged by the Mapai Party at the time because I was a member of the Mapai, that I became the chairman of 8 villages in the south near Be’er Sheva. It’s called Shovalim. There were Moshavim that you were building for the Moroccan Jews to come in.


I: Moshavim is not a Ma’abara.


S: No, Moshav is actually a village.


I: What about your parents in the Ma’abara?


S: Ma’abara, well they went from Ma’abara to Ma’abara until they were given places to live which they went to Be’er Sheva.


I: How long did that take?


S: It took them roughly a year until they went to Be’er Sheva and they got my mother and all my brothers and sisters at the time, got a 1 bedroom apartment, just an entrance like a little foyer a little kitchenette and 1 bathroom, and that was like for 7 people. But you have to do what you have to do. No electricity for the first 3 years. Each house was like a a Fourplex. 4 apartments. So 3 years later we got together with the other people, we put money together, and then we got electricity connected to our house.


00:45:37:11


I: Water, what about water?


S: Water was, water was but not electricity, so for the first 3 years no electricity at all. And I’ll tell you one thing, when we had electricity that night we had a ball  till 5 o’clock in the morning, sure everyone was singing. I meanhere, come on, electricity, that’s something from out of this world.


I: so what did you use? Faroos [ph]?


S: Of course, faroos, candles, whatever. Just like when we used to do in Baghdad.


I: In Baghdad was there electricity in your homes?.


S: Different houses, different houses, when I was at the time at Farhud we did not, but then after that when we moved to Ehrta [ph] or to Carada [ph] then there was everything else. But when you’re a kid and that’s all you know, that you don’t really have a proper toilet because you had an outhouse and that’s what you use.


I: You went on the floor, you went on the floor, right?


S: That’s right, that’s right [laughs]. Alright, so anyway, I went, it was arranged that I’d become the chairman supposedly of those 8 villages- shuval, but to be honest with you, I just could hack it there, because I was not really a member of the organization as such, because what I saw there, I couldn’t believe that we’re building here, I see some trucks come in, supposedly depositing the merchandise, but they didn’t. Somebody signed the deposit and they took the truck back to sell it somewhere else. That’s called corruption in my jargon. 


I: In everybody’s jargon


S: So when this happened after a while, I complained. So I was offered a peace of the action if I keep my mouth shut and I refused. I wanted to call a conference, a press conference to bring it up, but my brother came from Be’er Sheva and he talked to me a whole day that- “please don’t do that we’re gonna fix it, everything will be alright, call the press conference off”


I: your brother now, the older one.


S: Joseph, Joseph. He was very involved in politics there. So I made like the big mistake and I called it off, and then what happened?!


I: They continued.


S: They continued. Then for me all the doors were suddenly being slammed. The minister at the time was Golda Me’ir. She came to visit the Moshavim, the 8 villages, and I’m supposed to be the chairman on top of this, they wouldn’t even come to my office or honourably invited, no, I was bypassed.


I: Because, because you..


S: Because I opened my mouth. I go to Jerusalem to get an interview with Golda Me’ir to talk. Couldn’t do it…


I: She even didn’t wanna speak to you?


S: I don’t know if anybody even reach her, but there are so many different people that you have to talk to in between to get an appointment. Come next week, come tomorrow, she’s busy, you know all kinds of things like that. So after 2, 3 months like that, I knew that it’s not my place, so I resigned, and they were happy that I resigned. And then through my sisters somehow there was an opening, let’s call it in the, outside Israel, and that was really an interesting thing, because when I was interviewed, they were looking for a young person who spoke either Arabic or French.


I: And you spoke both.


S: I spoke both quite well, we’re talking over 60 years ago. And as I was being interviewed the person says, “ok, we have a place in Paris and we were buying a place in Rangoon, which one do you want?” and he started to laugh and he wanted put Paris. I said “wait a minute, who said I want to go to Paris?!” he says “Ata Meshuga?, are you crazy?, everyone will jump on to go to Paris. I said “from Israel to go to Paris is what?, 2 hour flight? Big deal, but to go to the far east, it’s something different. And since I was planning to study far eastern studies, history and all that, to me I thought that would be the greatest thing for me. I said “but on 1 condition” he says “what?” I said “can I study at Rangoon University in English. He says “of course”. Because Burma was under the British for a hundred years or more. So I said “put me down Rangoon”. That was my big mistake. Because after my training and they sent me to Rangoon, a week later, I made an appointment with the Dean of the University of Rangoon. I go to speak to him and I say “I would like to study and all that” he said “It’s very nice, but when did you study Burmese?” I said “I just came, I haven’t studied any Burmese yet. Isn’t everything in English?” He said “not anymore”. For the last 3 years everything turned into Burmese. So here we go [laughs], I’m stuck in Rangoon. I was hoping to study for 2, 3 years in the University, and I was shut off. So I did go to University there but after the afternoon just to study the language in audio, which I learned how to speak it, but not reading or writing. Can you imagine if I went to Paris, I would’ve been able to study at night at least.


00:51:32:02


I: What did you want to study?


S: I wanted to study a far eastern.. umm , you know, I’m a historian and a history student. I love history. But anyway, that’s in the past, so here just by one mistake of one man in Tel Aviv, that he thought- yes, I can study in Rangoon, changed my life, completely.


I: But tell me about the time in Rangoon, tell me about that experience, whatever you can tell.


S: Well, I was, I was attached to the military attache as their secretary. Officially I was a secretary, and I was the cypher clock, and officially I did other things that I cannot not talk about. And umm, since I spoke Arabic I was able to listen to some people talking the language, but they didn’t know that I spoke the language and I reported what I heard and I rapped my reports. And also once, I was able to go to get the book that was written by Nasser called: Filasafat Thawra, “The Philosophy of Revolution” and I picked it up, translate as much as I got into Hebrew and shipped it to Israel, because it was just came out. I was one of the first ones to get hold of a copy like that. So this what, part of my work there, let’s call it. And after 2 years when I finished, I asked for six months of leave no pay, and I thought instead of going from Rangoon to Tel Aviv the old way, I’ll go around the world, tour le monde. So I bought a ticket for one year, and in those days it was possible that you buy a ticket for 1 year and then you can change, any place you wanna go, stop and go around. So I went to Hong Kong, Singapore and all these and then I stopped in Australia for a while and continued, until I reached a place called Vancouver, had no idea there was even a place called Vancouver. I arrived Vancouver around 10 o’clock in the morning. I went to the place…


00:53:49:02


I: By Boat?


S: No, by airplane. I flew from Australia.. Because I wanted to stay in Australia for a while, but they wouldn’t let me because I came as a tourist. So they said “if you wanna become like an immigrant you have to go out, stay in Singapore for 6 months, then you can come in”. I said “No, no way, I’m not gonna do that”, so I just continued. I arrived to Vancouver, I went to visit  the Jewish agency, just to say “Hello, how are you?” you know, “What else to see here in Vancouver?”. As I am sitting, a girl comes into the office. Like the secretary of the person who is there. Oh he says “Oh by the way, I want you to meet Miss Layla Azulay, she also speaks Hebrew”. So I said “Hello, how are you?”.


I: That’s Vancouver?


S: In Vancouver. So she asked where I’m staying, I said “I’m staying at the YMCA. Ok. the same evening I get a call from her. Says “My girlfriend and I are going to a movie tomorrow to see an Indian movie from India, it’s called The World of Apu”. Honestly I still remember that. “Would you like to join us?”. I said “Sure”. She gave me the address. The next evening I go there at 6 PM, she comes alone. I say “What happened to your friend?”, she says “Well, whe’s not feeling well”. Alright. And that’s my wife for the last 59 years.


I: I remember a story with a horse.


S: That’s after we got married. Well she was working in Vancouver because she’s from Montreal, so I waited for her for about 5, 6 weeks, then we flew to Montreal on my ticket, that I was mentioning before I had a ticket, and I gave her parents 2 weeks to prepare a wedding, because I wanted to go back to Israel. And they were so much against me, “What do you mean 2 weeks, we need time and all these things”. Anyway , we got married fast and the next day my, we went to St. Agathe, but it was after Labour Day in September, so the whole hotel was just us and one more couple from New York. So, how much can you do in the bedroom? You know? You have to do something else [laughs]. So they wanted to go horseback riding. So, I said “I’ve never been on a horse” My wife couldn’t believe it “You come from Iraq, from Arab country”, I said “I’m not an Arab and I’m not a Bedouin, I’m a city guy”. Anyway, we went to a stable and we asked the guy to give us 4 horses. And we told him. I said “I’ve never been on a horse before, my wife, she’s been on horses all her life”. Total lies, she wanted to impress me I suppose. So here we go on the 4 horse and we start galloping, and I’m like an Indian on a horse, suddenly I took it to the horse like I was born on it. My wife’s horse was running also. Her feet came off the stirrups and she fell and she broke the seventh and eighth vertebrae. And that is how I spent my honeymoon, bringing my wife from St. Agathe to Montreal by an ambulance to the Jewish General Hospital for a whole week. She was in a caste, half her body for the first 6 months, and I was stuck in Montreal, so I had.. Oh I’m sorry, I didn’t know my.. I’ll just close it. I was waiting for this call actually all day.


00:57:36:46


I: You can answer…


S: No, no, no, you can’t speak to clients, let me just close it, sorry. 


I: So you never went back to Israel?


S: Not to..


I: (inaudible 00:58:14)


S: Not to back, not at that time, no, of course not. So here we were stuck in Montreal, we didn’t even have an apartment, I didn’t prepare anything for that place.


I: You stayed at her parents?


S: Pardon?


I: You stayed at her parents?


S: I stayed at her parents for a few days until we found an apartment, to share with an older person who was a widower, he slept in the living room, we slept in the bedroom, and we shared his kitchen and all his utensils because I had nothing, and so I paid him of the rent and everything. At the time it was 110 dollars a month, so I paid half and that was our first year of marriage.


I: Why didn’t you stay with her parents [coughs]?


S: They didn’t have a place, an additional place and we wanted to stay alone so after 6 months and they took her caste off, she was fragile, you know, it takes time get used after that you’re sitting for 6 months like that. So I had to find a job, so first of all I had to return my passport for the Israeli Consulate, because I had a special passport, so I got a regular passport and I got stuck in Montreal. So here I have a wife with a broken back, I had to find a job to start working and this is what is happening since 1957. This year will be 60 years


I: Wow.


S: Yeah. and thank God in the meantime we had a son and two daughters, and we have 8 grandchildren.


I: Beautiful. 


S: And I’m now 84 and we are hoping to celebrate our 60th anniversary this coming September.


I: Isn’t that beautiful. 


S: Thank you.


I: Congratulations. I’m gonna backtrack a little if you don’t mind, because your story is fascinating, I mean it’s very special.


S: Thank you.


01:00:03:13


I: Do your remember anything about your grandparents?


S: Not really because grandparents on my father’s side were in Egypt which I never met. It was only grandparents of my mother and the only time I remember my grandfather was when he stayed with us for a couple of months. He was a member of the Masonic temple and that’s why, when I became aged 21, I also become a member. And he always talked very much about the Masonic uh order in the world, and to me it helped me a lot as I was travelling around the world. For example, when I arrived from Hong Kong from Singapore on a Friday late afternoon – in those days, you used to go immediately to find about next flight to make sure that you are going to be on the next flight – it was Quantis Airlines from Australia…so I went to the uh booth and I said “here’s my ticket, I’m supposed to fly in three days”, she said “good luck to you but Quantis is on strike” so I said “alright, can you arrange for a hotel for me?” and they said “well, you have to do that on your own because according to your ticket, if any strikes happen we are not responsible…you have to pay for yourself.” So yeah, I was caught about 6 pm on a Friday evening in Singapore airport…I can’t call any of the Jewish agencies on a Friday evening, nobody’s gonna answer the phone so the next best thing I do is call the Masonic temple. I was lucky that somebody answered...I told them who I am, he said “stay where you are, I’m coming to pick you up” A guy from nowhere, that I know…he comes in, we give the signals to each other that  I’m a member, he takes me, he buys me a supper, this was on the Masonic temple, whatever…he took me to a hotel, he showed me where, and he said “if you need anything else just call us” And I have done this in Australia and other places…wherever I’m stuck, I either call some of the Jewish agency during the day or I call the Masonic temple. Because us, as members, the moment we know of someone is in dire trouble, no matter what we are doing, we drop it and we help. So to me it worked very well at the time. 


I: So once you were a member, you’re always a member


S: Sure


I: For life?


S: Unless you go and you resign


I: Why would you resign?


S: I’m just saying…if you want to say I’m not a member. But I’m not active now. I used to be active in Burma because this is where I was initiated, is in Rangoon


I: How?


S: I can’t tell you how[laughs]. Special initiation to make sure that you are a man, not a woman. That’s right because women are not allowed. There is a woman section but only for women. But us, for women -for men it’s only men and actually, as a matter of fact, Catholics are not allowed to join 


01:03:31:35


I: Why?


S: Because Catholics can go to the priests and confess and they can tell anything about they can. We’re not allowed to talk. So only, we have to, if you believe in God, you’re OK. So, because it’s part of the whole ritual. But if I have to go to my priest or rabbi and tell him what I did inside the lodge I’ll be castrated, so to speak. According to the original rituals, they’ll cut your tongue. That was as bad as that, so you keep your mouth shut. 


I: How far back does the freemasons go?


S: Over a thousand years.


I: Is it in time of christ?


S: After…after. Well Templars is not really part of it but again, it’s about the same time. 


I: it’s the same kind of idea


S: Correct. [coughs]Yeah. But anyway, I mean we don’t do bad things, it’s only we do good things. And, uh, for example around the world, again, we raise money, we can give it to charity, or we take people…if they are blind people we read them a story or we teach them how to swim, whatever! That’s what we do. And we just love it because thank God we are able to do it. For someone who cannot. So we help them. 


I: I think it also went all the way to Iraq, I remember in Basra


S: Of course. Well sure. My grandfather was one, my father was one, my brother Edmund, my brother Joseph…Joseph became actually President of the Lodge in Israel. 


I: You were…your family comes from Basra so it looks like the Jews from Basra may have been Free Masons 


S: Most definitely. I was born in Baghdad but when my father and mother got married it was in Basra But then I was born in Baghdad because they moved to Baghdad in 1924, 25


I: So I guess a lot of the Jews in Basra were also 


S: Not all. Very few because you have 


I: I know some cousins of ours


S: I see. Ok. Because for example, today, let’s say him, he wants to become a member, just for argument’s sake, you have to have minimum two people who know you and can vouch for you and before you can come in, we have a meeting…the members…and you know when we say that somebody was “black balled” because we are given, in our hand, two balls…1 black, 1 white. So let’s say he’s supposed to come in, they say “Mr. So-and-So, and he is vouched by this…you agree or you disagree” So you go to the box, and you put either the white ball or the black ball. So if they guy is black balled, he can’t come in! OK


01:06:38:42


I: I love it, that’s incrediable. So wait a second, is it the type of thing where you would come and Alexandre come and tell Alexandre would you like to join (inaudible) ask him 


S: I’m not really allowed to go and bring people, people come to me to say “I would like to join the Masons” and if I feel like the guy is really an honest person, hard worker, he’s going to help the community, then fine I can recommend him. But if I am in doubt, out…I don’t even bring his name. 


I: Aren’t you supposed to wear a ring?


S: Well it could be, well I used to instead of ring I used to have something else on my lapel, because when I had a ring at the beginning, my skin uh …I get a rash. I don’t even have my wedding ring. Because that’s what happened. When I put gold on my skin, I get a rash. So I take it off. 


I: And the sign of the freemasons… are you allowed to say what it is?


S: No. Unless you become a member [laughs]. 


I: OK. Now. You told us that you have 8 brothers and sisters, you are number 7. You were obviously very close when you grew up. And you moved to Baghdad because your dad had a problem 


S: Right


I: I forgot…uh, your dad, how did your dad pass away?


S: Well he was 64 years old and he said, heart attack or something, you know. 


I: Now, how about when you were going to school and stuff…did you have Jewish and non-Jewish friends, did you have only Jewish friends? 


S: Well, in school, alliance, it was like 99.9% Jewish kids. But because of our neighbours, that we had, so also I had Christian friends and Arab friends. And sometimes, as a matter of fact, I used to go out – my mother didn’t like it very much because she thought it was a riff-raff – we used to play something called Bilbelhah [ph]…I don’t know if you know what that is


I: Can you tell us?


S: It’s like baseball but this is different, you take, say, a little stone and you put a piece of wood standing like that and with another piece of wood you hit this piece so it goes far away. The guy picks it up and throws it back to base so it’s almost like baseball but it was with a piece of wood. So, like as I said, because my mother always tried to protect us, that we are not supposed to be playing on the street, it’s not safe


I: Now once the farhud happened


S: Right


I: Did you stay friends with these neighbors, non-Jews?


S: Yes but honestly


01:09:56:03


I: Did they attack the neighbours? Did they burn their homes?


S: Not, no…none of them. Only the Jewish homes. 


I: No, I know but your neighbours, did they attack the other Jews?


S: No. No, absolutely not. 


I: Your neighbours were good with the Jews


S: That’s right. But honestly, the situation became tense after. Because, so I mean, if here I see Muslim wanted to kill me and these are Muslims, do I trust them? On the other hand, it was Muslim that saved our life. So it was really like, very difficult position to be in. Here’s some good ones, some bad ones. Who do I trust? So the best thing was, although I’d been living in Baghdad or Babylon for 2500 years, get the hell out of there! It’s not yours anymore. 


I: So you spoke what language with the non-Jews?


S: Well we spoke Arabic of course between us 


I: And at home?


S: At home, only Arabic. And only English and French when we were in school, really. 


I: So you went to the alliance to start with 


S: Yes


I: And then the Shamash


S: Correct but I did not finish shamash because I had to escape. Unfortunately


I: Any social or sport club in Iraq that you belonged to?


S: No not sports club but in the school we used to have, like, guys who played volleyball, football like soccer, and things like that…I played, like, ping pong. Table tennis. And I also played, uh, reshai, uh…badminton. 


I: Ok, do you have any memories of the food that your parents had or special food, uh


S: [laughs]I’m laughing because there is one dish that my mother used to make, every Friday, and you know if that’s the dish you know it’s Friday: kubabania


I: Mmmm, that’s very good


S: As a matter of fact, Rehayim [ph] knows about it and sometimes she invite us and she makes kubabania for us. 


I: Can I get myself invited too?


S: No but honestly, at the beginning, until we grew up, for example….as I mentioned to you, 

when my father passed away and my older brother had to go out and work, it was tough situation…so as soon as I was able to earn something, I did. When I was about 13 years old, I tried to help other people in my class, to draw a picture, in Geography…I was excellent in Geography…let’s say, to draw the map of Africa, with all the – the continent of Africa – with all the cities, where the trains go, where the mountains, whatever! Everything, let’s say Africa or if they want different places around the world…so I used to do it for them and they used to pay me or give me pencils, pens, whatever I need…so this is how I earned mostly how not to ask for my mother or my brother to give me…


01:13:07:24


I: How much did they pay you, ten cents?


S: Ten cents. 15 cents but in those days it was good. And then I did something else, in 1946, 45, 46….one day…I love to fly kites…one day I brought one kite that I made and hang it in the store. Somebody comes in, the kid wants his father to buy it and I said “it’s not for sale! It’s just for decoration!” the kid, no no no he wants it, he wants it so I gave it to him for 50 cents. 50 fils [ph] which was a lot of money for me. So I said hey, maybe I should bring some more tomorrow. So the same evening, my brother David helped me and we made 4 more. The next day I had 4 kites, I sold them all. The whole summer I was making kites. 


I: (inaudible 01:14:22) so it went up?


S: 50, 55, whatever…it depends on how much you put there. The big tail, the small tail but that was my pocket money. So –


I: How old were you now?


S: 14, 13, 14. So you know whatever you can do, you do that way. And that’s how you survive. When there is nothing else. You can’t go to your brother or your mother, you know they’re struggling too, to say give me 50 fils I wanna do, I wanna buy dundurma as we say, like ice-cream. (1:14:40) So you have to find ways, means to do it yourself.


I: so how, the store, belonged to your brother?


S: Yes, my brother Edmund rented the store, so he put things, he was working already, my brother Edmund the older one


I: Yes who was uh.. with the British


S: Correct. And then in the meantime, of course, he stopped in 1945 and he started working for Sharpe & Dohme that’s a pharmaceutical company and he was working as a controller. So he saved some money, opened the store. Because remember, you have four sisters and if you want to marry them you’re going to have to prepare to have some money for dowry and things like that, right? So he was the person who has to bring the money. There’s no father here. So we opened the store and I used to go at 5:30 in the morning to deliver, and if I remember correctly we were the only store or the first store in Baghdad that was delivering food to houses just like here when you got to IGA and they do a delivery…we used to do delivery. I used to go after school from houses to see what they want in the morning…they want, sumun [ph] they want bread, they want eggs, they want butter, whatever


01:15:51:52


I: Did they give you any money?


S: After that…


I: did you charge for delivery?


S: No. Just what it cost us. And I had a bicycle and arranged for a big basket in front of the bicycle, 5:30 in the morning I’m out there, the sumun comes in, I put the stuff…this house, this house, I go ‘til about 6:30 in the morning I deliver then go back home, have a little breakfast and then rush to school. You have to do what you have to do….. Not like here.


I: (inaudible 01:16:48)


S: That’s right. 


I: And how about the dress code, was it European dress code all along?


S: Definitely. We were never 


I: in Basra


S: And this is why they knew you immediately because you’re not dressed like them. And remember, we spoke our Arabic is not the same as the Muslim Arabic. Our Arabic is some sort of a joint, just like Yiddish, with different words and different accent…so the moment you spoke they knew that you were not a Muslim. And when the other guy spoke I knew already that he’s not Jewish. 


I: Did you speak Muslim to the Muslims?


S: Sometimes…we had to because you hear it but even though after all these years I try because to me the most best Arabic word was, the denominator, was the Egyptian Arabic. Because almost everybody knows or understands Egyptian Arabic. And why Egyptian Arabic? Because all the films that we got in those days were all from Egypt. So you learnt all the words from Abdel Wahab and Asmahan and all these things, when they spoke you understood. Because Iraq didn’t make films. Only Egypt made them. But today, after all these years, when I speak to someone I have many Arab clients now and it’s really funny because sometimes I try, sometimes, to speak let’s say maybe Lebanese or whatever or Iraqi it’s not the same because my head is thinking in my Arabic, in my accent, whatever and to translate into the other [laughs] . It’s like somebody speaking Cockney English and the other one coming from, you know, from Scotland…it’s not the same! [laughs] But it’s fun.


I: So you had kubabania on Friday night. What about Shabbat? Did you go to the Synagogue? Were they kosher, your family?


S: We were not, to 100% Kosher because, again, it’s a question of money and where you buy things, right. 


I: Hmmm


S: In the days that I remember, till I was about 14, it was real rough. So if once a week we had meat that was a good day. And if on Friday we got a piece of chicken that was a good day too. 


01:19:06:29


I: Synagogue?


S: Synagogue. They were not, we did not belong…because since my brother Edmund who is the older one, was actually in Mosul for a number of years…we used to, my mother used to visit the Synagogue on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. Sometimes on Sukkot. But not like every Saturday. The only time I went to the synagogue almost on a daily basis for one year is when my father passed away, I was 6 years old, they taught me to read the kaddish and I was told that if I went and said the kaddish my father will be in Heaven. Until this day I remember almost every single word because I have said it so many times when I was six years old. 


I: What a responsibility. So you all went to synagogue, all year


S: Me and my brothers because I was very young, 6 years old but he was about 12, 13 so he used to take me there.


I: Could you please remind me what Edmund did with the British? 


S: Well he was in the intelligence service…uh, as I mentioned before that he was the one in Mosul trying to capture some German spies which he did and he made excellent connection with Sheikh Barzani which was good for the British. Because whatever Edmund wanted, because Edmund became almost like a brother or a son to the family, so they got. And when my brother, actually, Edmund went after that to London England he was quite sick and I went from Montreal to visit him in the hospital for 10 days, he had a tumour to be taken and I begged him to tell me actual work that he did, he refused. I said “even not for me, just for our grandchildren” he said “he can’t say one word about the work he did.” So you know, I respect that. But I wish he would have. But all we know that sometimes he came with a bullet in his foot you know when you do that work you know there is a risk…he can’t do it just for fun, you’re sitting at home, you take your horse and you go to the wherever, so somebody took a shot at you. So you got shot. Big deal. [laughs] It’s the one thing of life. That’s all.


01:21:50:18 


I: So Edmund went. Because you said in ‘51 when the Jews applied, he did not. 


S: Correct Correct.


I: so he knew but then- by then he had already opened a store. 


S: Well we closed the store after because when I left in ’49 with Joseph because Joseph came with me, so he closed the store after because we were not there. 


I: So he went back to work with the British?


S: No, no…I told you, he was working as a controller with a pharmaceutical company


I: Right but you said he knew-


S: But he’s always…for example, I’ll tell you, how I contacted Edmund after all these years. From Montreal and I haven’t seen my brother since 1949, right?


I: And what year is it now?


S: Now we’re talking 1961. One day we’re sitting at home and I’m telling my wife I would love to contact Edmund but I don’t really know how. He’s somewhere in Baghdad. I said, you know what I have an idea…The British embassy knows about Edmund because he’s always invited there even for all these years…if somehow I can send him a letter through the diplomatic service, he will get it. so I contact the commissioner in Ottawa the British commissioner in Ottawa and I said I would like to contact my brother he used to be part of the foreign office, MI5 or whatever you call it. for about 2 months I didn’t hear a word the one day I get a call for someone with a real British accent in Montreal he would like to meet with me. We met at Place Ville-Marie. For about 3 hours he interrogated me. All kind of questions he said all right I’ll get back to you. A month later he called me back and said ok write a letter and we'll pass it through. I sat down and wrote maybe 10 page about everybody, our sisters, brothers, where they live, what everybody is doing, and I gave it to him in an envelope, an open envelope because what's the use of...they're going to open it up anyway. I gave it to him and I didn’t hear from him for months. Months later I received back a letter from my brother Edmund via the same- they sent it to London, from London went by diplomatic pouch to Baghdad, they gave...my brother got a call from the ambassador inviting him for tea and then he gave him the letter. He said that's from your brother. And my Edmund answered through the same channels, to tell me where he is, what he is doing, and this is when he told me I may be going to London for treatment. But I thought he was giving me a code, to tell me that he was running away or something but he was really going to for an operation


I: And he was still in Baghdad in 60...


S: He was still, he was still in Baghdad. So listen to this, what happened...I told my wife at the time, it was already time passed, 1962, 63...I told my wife you know what? I better prepare myself a visa to go to England just in case because at the time I still had my Israeli passport, not a Canadian passport. So I drove to Ottawa and to get a a Visa to London. I drove back to Montreal I arrived around quarter to 5 in the afternoon, I called my wife to tell her I was back, there was a hell of a storm when I came back, she said you better go next door to the Bank of Nova Scotia, they are waiting for you til 5 o'clock, I prepared some money for you, you are flying to London tonight. I said what happened? She said well after you left this morning I received a telegram from Edmund, from London, he's entering the hospital for an operation and a very short one...and if I don't make it, please look after my wife and child. 


01:32:48:29


I: Oh. Where were his wife and child?


S: Baghdad. They were there alone. So my wife had the brain to book me immediately, same night of London. so I went to the back got a 100 pounds, the next same evening I took a plane and the next morning I arrived to London the next morning. I took a taxi and I went to the place where he told me he was living, in a rooming house. So I went to the rooming house and I was talking to the lady there, I said I would like to meet my Edmund, I came, she said he was here but he went to the hospital so I said which hospital. she said he didn’t tell me so I how am I supposed to know which hospital. I’m standing and I’m really wracking my brain what the hell to do. Sitting---standing with her there in the lobby and she had one of these telephones that everybody can use, a public phone so she said he's in room number 3 she said I don’t know but there is another man in there with him in room number 3, Aslahn, apparently his nephew from his wife's side, staying together, maybe you can wait for Aslahn to come in, he'll tell you. I’m standing there, the phone rings, automatically I pick up the phone I say hello may I help you, he says can I speak to Aslahn in room number 3, I said sorry but Aslahn is not here, may I know who's talking? He says who are you? So I said I'm Sabih from Montreal, he says impossible...I swear to you, I’m standing there I said who are you to tell me I’m not who I am...how do you say, who are you? He says I'm Edmund. I'm telling you [laughs], I'm....my hair stood up on my hand. He said how did you come, I only sent the telegram yesterday, so I told him what Lyla did, booked me on the same flight and I’m here. So I said which hospital are you, he said I’m in London's Clinic. So I took a taxi and I went to the London's Clinic. And I stayed with im for 10 days after the operation and his wife and child were still in Baghdad. They were supposed to come in, so I waited 10 days, they didn’t come so I went back to Montreal. Then his wife and daughter, Ruthie, came after. Maybe a couple of weeks later. And then, again, it's a very long story what happened after but that's not for this time. 


01:28:47:57


I: So till when did he live?


S: So he stayed in London and he went back to Baghdad, if you believe it


I: His wife and Ruthie?


S: No he left his wife and Ruthie in London but he went back to Baghdad 


I: He got stuck in Baghdad, 63


S: He got stuck in Baghdad because in the meantime he wanted to send some money out so what he did, instead of sending money out, he bought some merchandise and he shipped them to London. When he arrived to London months months later, he went to the warehouse, they opened it up and the stuff, it's all eaten by worms and all kind of stuff like that. I mean, what a luck this guy has, all this money he had, he sent it...all gone to pieces. 


01:29:13:53


I: What was it? Food he bought?


S: No...wool and all kind of stuff like that. 


I: And it got eaten by worms


S: That's right. By moths, whatever. And we're talking, we're talking big money. Anyway. So in the meantime, his poor wife was waiting for him, he told he's coming on such and such a flight, she goes to the airport to wait for him, the flight arrives, he is not there. 


01:30:11:86


I: this is coming from Baghdad?


S: That's right. Back to London. What happened, when he was going up on the airplane, he was arrested. [sniffs] And he was detained


I: what year was that?


S: I don’t know, 64, whatever 


I: That’s when allowed to leave Iraq anymore


S: So then later, somehow, 6 months later, a year later, I don’t know exactly when, he received a telephone call one night from a friend of his, he said we're supposed to pick you up again tomorrow. You better get the hell out of here. 


I: So he got arrested but they brought him....


S: After months he left


I: Got out of jail


S: Yeah...so listen, he went to the same routes, he went to Baghdad, to Basra, and somebody, took him across the river to Abadan 


I: in 64?


S: Yeah


I: From Abadan to Ahvaz


S: to Ahvaz to Tehran from Tehran to Israel and things like that


I: To Cyprus


S: You know...no, not to Cyprus. Whatever. It's a very interesting story. 


I: Yeah I mean in 1917 when Jews had to escape they also went to Hanahin [ph]


S: Ahuh

I: They couldn't go anymore from Basra, they had to go through Hanahin (1:31:28)


S: and many people got caught on the border


I: Yeah


S: Right. And now we are living the good life, in Heaven. No, to me I mean, you compare our lives in Montreal Canada vs to what we were living in Baghdad...there it was hell, this is Heaven. 


I: Absolute heaven. Now did you have a Bar Mitzvah by the way?


S: No i did not but what happened is when I, just going to Rangoon to Burma, my mother insisted...she said I know you are going and not coming back. I said what do you mean I’m just going for two years. No you're not coming back, you'll get married somewhere else (1:32:12). Said, I want you to put on your tefillin before you go. So we arranged a little party at home. In Yad Eliyahu with my sister. We brought a Rabbi, we put on the tefillin we did the prayers and that was my Bar Mitzvah. 


I: How old were you now? 21?


S: 21, 22 already but at least I had something. And she was right, she was a very smart lady. 


I: Do you have any memories of Passover, in Baghdad?

S: Yes, well Passover is interesting because we used to make the Matzo at home, we had these tanur [ph] and my sister (inaudible) and I we used to sit down and tak tak tak tak tak put it inside and


I: did you also make bread at home?


S: No but the matzo we made, and um, so to me, it was fun. 12 years old, 13 years old. whatever. This is what I remember from Passover because that was the most important thing we did. Al of them, I mean you look at Sukkot, we used to make our Sukkah in the house but in those days, if you recall, there are snakes, there are scorpions...ok and my sister Hilda was bitten by a scorpion but we used to have in the house uh


I: Aloe vera?


S: No, sabra...plant. so my mother took one, she cut it and the juice in side the leaf, she put on her hand and that was the best medication (1:34:04) so, and I had many episodes with the little snakes, that’s why I mentioned the snakes, because usually under the sukkah there are a few things dangling and this little snake dangling also on top [laughs]


I: Did they bite, these snakes?


S: No they are small, like grass snakes or whatever but I had an episode in Bangkok with a snake but that's a totally different story


I: Do you want to talk about it


S: Well I went to visit Bangkok an the first thing I did I called on the Israeli consul general, his name is Dr Jacobson an opthamologist and he had his own home, with twenty rooms like a little hospital and him and his wife lived on the 2nd floor so I went to visit him because I was still on the diplomatic service and he gave me a room, and he was from Germany a Jewish guy from Germany so we call him a yekyeh [ph] that means everything has to be exact. 1 o clock exactly you have lunch then you have siesta, you go to sleep, at 3 o'clock you wake up and so on. Fine so I did the same thing...he said here's your room, so I put my stuff and after 1 o clock for lunch and I go and because Bangkok is a hot country, a hot place and you have all kinds of mosquitoes, and flies so you have doors with screens and I’m used to it, so here I go to the room and  I close the door behind me. so here I go to the room, I open the door, I close it behind me and it doesn't close (1:35:46) and I couldn’t understand, why didn’t it close. I look up and lo and behold the damn snake is half inside, half outside. I swear to god, I’m telling you, I lost my voice. I was so scared. I jumped on the bed, I took a piece of wood and I kept the door closed because it’s trying to come back...it had a head, um a triangle head it was a very venomous snake...and my hand is there and the snake is like beside you know like trying to come back and I'm holding the door but I lost my voice, I wanted to call Dr. Jacobson, I went [screaming motion]...I had nothing comes out I was so bloody scared. 

 

I: a nightmare


S: That's right and in the afternoon...and then my voice came in and I really screamed "Dr. Jacobson!" he came rushing, what's the matter? I said take three steps back and  look...he takes three steps back and he's like oh my god...he called two of his servants and they came with a shovel and start hitting the snake until they killed it. His wife came in and she says wherever there is 1 snake there has to be another....that's all I needed to hear (1:36:58) so I didn’t want to stay there in the afternoon, I went outside for supper or whatever...I came in the evening and his home upstairs was like a museum full of pieces, you know what a knight is? like a knight, dressed, like the old


I: Yeah. An armour.


S: An armour. He had money of those in the house upstairs


I: with a-


S: With a sword, the whole thing. Anyway I took a flashlight and I took one of these swords and I went to my room. I opened the door with the flashlight looking for the snake but I look I look, nothing. so, I go inside, I didn’t want to get undressed, I lied on the bed quietly then suddenly I feel something warm on my foot. I’m telling you [laughs], if I didn’t have a heart attack that night I don’t know when but I remember a snake is not hot, is not warm is cold blooded, a snake is cold blooded so it cannot be a snake so it has to be something else but I didn’t care what it was...I just got up, out from the room, fast with a yell...out of the house, to a hotel. 


I: What was it, do you know?


S: A small kitten [laughs]. But when your head is somewhere else, you think a snake is coming at you, and that's all I need a snake [laughs]


I: Ok in your family for, for, Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur, Passover do you have any particular superstitions or ...any religious figures in the family?


01:38:58:40


S: Well, not really, because honestly I must say that my family was like, scattered, because my father wasn’t there, there was no head. Uh, my older brother, David, that was the one before Joseph, he was a person that, he was almost like an Artist in like Cabinet making, and things like that, so he always took jobs outside of Baghdad, so he wasn’t even home, so it was Joseph, who is only 6 years older than me, so there wasn’t any father figure, if you know what I mean. And I couldn’t, you know, for my mother, to take us to the Synagogue and things like that, so you knew, we knew what to do in the evening is to sit down, sit around her and she tells us stories from the Bible.


I: Wow, beautiful.


S: and that’s, of course, I went after school for 1 hour to study the Torah, because if you remember, we were not allowed to study the Hebrew language, but that was only to study the Torah and most of it we studied the Bible By repetition, by songs. For example you say “Medaber Adonai el Moshe Le’emor” things like that. so , you don’t really understand what you’re reading sometime, but Mr Moshe who was the first, who taught us, so he said “Medaber Adonai el Moshe le’emor” he told us that means, “God spoke to Moses”. So that’s how we got it. That you remember it as a song. Ok.


I: So you were not allowed to study Hebrew..


S: Hebrew


I: From what year? When did all this…


S: 19’ 1930s


I: From 1930s?


S: Sure, after Gazhi came. King Gazhi,


I: When Gazhi came you weren’t allowed to study Hebrew.


S: That’s right.


I: I thought it was after Israel, after 50s


S: No siree, my time.


I: That’s new for me.


S: Ok.


I: So the Zionist organization that you were inwas called the?


S: The T’nuah- The Movement.


I: The Movement.


S: The Movement


I: And do you know how many people were involved in it, all together now?


S: Honestly, no but after that you know, when everything was like my cousin Yoav came to Israel, then he became a judge by the way, now he’s a retired judge, you met him in Be’er Sheva, I mean he talked a little bit, so maybe, I think he mentioned sometimes maybe, could be up to 4 or 5000 members, men and women, this in Basra in Baghdad, not in only one spot.


I: He was one of the leaders?


S: Correct. He was one of the leaders together with Ben Porat, Ben Porat, he changed his name to Ben Porat, then he became a member of parliament in Israel. I think he’s still around. 


I: Yeah, still around, he built this museum, of Babylonian Jewry


S: Yes, ok, right.


I: You did mention that one of the purposes was self defence.


S: Right.


I: In case the Farhud would occur again.


S: Correct.


I: But being just before the independence of Israel before that’s happening, what other motivation were there? Were there any attempts to encourage Jews to leave Iraq and go to Israel?


S: Not at that time, I mean of course even in my own class, sometimes you come to school in the morning and one person disappeared, he’s not there anymore, Because quietly he was smuggled across the border, but the whole idea of the Mahteret, of the T’nua was not that.


I: Ok.


S: Was to prepare ourselves in case something happened, that we can first protect yourself, defend your family, and also, if you’re gonna get killed, than you have to bring down as many with you as possible. And I, I mean at the time, when I was 16, 17, I knew, and maybe you’ll laugh at me if I tell you, I was ready as such, if I have to, to go to the power house, detonate myself, as long as the power house goes down. I mean to that extent, you are brain washed so to speak, that this is your last place to fight, this is your last place here, and if you’re gonna get killed, than you have to bring down as many as possible with you.


I: What’s the power house, what’s in the powerhouse


S: For the electricity. For Baghdad, for here we have like Hydro Quebec, so you have the power house. For example, when we had the coup d’etat and we had a couple of them, and I remember some of them, 1946, 47, so what happened at coup d’etat? ll you need is one division of soldiers, one division of the army, to take over the power house, the radio, stop the bridges, there were 6 bridges, and they finished Baghdad.


I: When was the coup d’ etat in Baghdad?


01:43:58:22


S: 45, 46, what are you talking about? You don’t remember?


I: No, we were not born. What coup d’ etat was it? Against the king?


S: Well, I guess against the government, ok?


I: And it didn’t work obviously.


S: Of course it didn’t work, but this is how they do it. That’s why for example what happened with George W Bush at Iraq now, we said “The whole idea was wrong, you wanted to do something in Iraq? You don’t destroy a whole country”, all you had to do is to have some people change, take over the power house, the television and you say that’s it, finito. So you have cars going all the street saying “There is a new government, stay in your houses or whatever. The next morning “everything is ok, it’s open, come out” and that’s what we did, we went into the house, we shut the windows and we sat for 24 hours, you don’t go out, because there is a new.. you didn’t know what was happening in the meantime. I remember distinctly we were at Alliance at the time, and I was supposedly one of the leaders that I wanted me and Shalom Katam, one of my mates, to take as many people from our school to go to demonstrate outside against the government. But in Alliance, if you remember, they had huge gates to be closed, it wasn’t an open place. So they called Mr Laredo who was the… ok? Who was the director, closed the doors, nobody was allowed to go. And we were told that if we were going out they’ll probably be shooting at us with machine guns. But we were 16 years old, we don’t believe this. We were like super, super humans. And he was right, and if you read the history, what happened at the time, the police was waiting in a different street and as soon as the demonstrators came they started tatatata. They were shooting at them. So we would have been at the front of this, ok?


I: You wanted to do a demonstration?


S: We wanted to go out also to say Musahwat you know, things like that, “we want freedom like everybody else” because we believed we are Baghdadis, we were Iraqis, why should only the Muslims go there? We are a part of it, we’re a part of, we were the same.


I: This part of the revolution you’re talking..


S: Of course, of course.


I: I didn’t even know there was one.


S: Go back to history and read please


I: We didn’t study, we did not, we were not even..


S: Ask Sammy 


I: Sammy who 


S: Sammy Sourani


I: But you know, it wasn’t in our History book, our parents didn’t talk about it 


S: Ok, but this..


I: We didn’t know it existed 


S: Ok


I: That’s the first time, I’m 68 years old.


S: You’re a kid [laughs]… I’m 84, ok? There is a big difference


I: Amen,  ok, let me ask the questions about the.. Ok about the T’nua.


S: Yes.


I: the 5000 people were being prepared


01:47:09:51


S: Correct 


I: Mainly, also, as a movement  to go Israel, right? They wanted the youth to go to Israel


S: Of course, yes, yes.


I: And 5000 of them did end up in Israel 


S: In the end, yes. 


I: Weren’t there people that were arrested, weren’t there people who were hanged for Zionism?


S: Of course.


I: Could you tell me a little about that?


S: Ok, this happened after I left. At the time when I was there, by the way, I don’t know if you recall the story, 1948, I think it was in April or early May, I don’t remember exactly the day. Two of our guys were transporting hand grenades in a violin case, and as they are walking down the street in front of the CID which is the Criminal Investigation Department, just like you say the FBI or the RCMP. somehow there was a bang and the violin case opened up, and what comes out of it? Hand grenades, in front of the CID, of the police. So they were arrested immediately. And this is how they started, they started torturing them, so some of them talked, one of them talked, the other one maybe didn’t talk. When you talk, you talk, about this person or that person, so in a way it was good for us because they said we are being trained. So they had to be careful because now it’s not like the Farhud time, 7 years before, so they were told that “Yes, the Jewish people are trained, they have arms and ammunition, and if you are going to attack we have to do our work”. And maybe, maybe this helped to bring the government to come with this military. What do you call it?  the .. there is a word for it. Anyway , like a military police you call it, they.. No, not the police. I can’t think of the word now. Martial law, martial law. Maybe that’s why they came with a martial law, to say “anybody found with ammunition and things like that is gonna be arrested” Ok? So in a way it may helped. That’s why we didn’t have anything like Farhud, because now the Jews are..


I: Armed.


S: Armed already, and they’re gonna fight. So it’s possible also from that point of view. But these two boys were really badly, you know, tortured and whatever.


I: Were they hung?


S: Honestly I don’t remember, but all I remember is, years later, I think 7 or 9 Jewish people were hung because what happened if here in Montreal. We had, we went to, we had like a demonstration, we went to the Synagogue, we talked about it. But what can the government of Canada do? Nothing! And that’s our story.


01:50:18:22


I: Ok weren’t there some people who were hanged as Communists as well? Jews?


S: Well, if you recall.. ok maybe you don’t recall. I remember going to school as and I’m walking down the street, Rashid street, or whatever, you see 2, 3 people are hung/


I: You actually see them.


S: Of course, they keep them there for hour and hours for people to see them, to know “You better keep your mouth shut, otherwise you’re gonna hang up there”. And then there is a big tableau  to say why they were hung. One week it was maybe they were communist. One week they were American spies, one they were Israeli spies. All kinds of things, whatever they can say…


I: Whether it was true or not..


S: Exactly. I mean, you remember maybe the story of Shafiq Ades. For heaven’s sake, this is one of the most notorious thing that happened to us, and Shafiq Ades, one of the most prominent Jewish people in Iraq, but in.. Apparently what happened is this, they arrested him, even if he was a friend, supposedly of the king or whatever, but they had to make somebody as a model…


I: As a scapegoat.


S: As a scapegoat, they arrested him, they made like a Kangaroo court, to say that he’s supplying Israel with tanks and airplanes which is all untrue, I mean the man, he used to work some of his business he was in the scrap metals, so he used to buy old stuff scrap metal and sell the scrap metal. They used to say, “No, no, no, he was the one who bought and that’s why Israel won the war” Which is also not true, has nothing to do with Shafiq Ades, and they hung him in front of his house. I mean, how much more do you want? And these are the people I’m gonna live with? The people that say I’m really brothers with them? No Sir! 


I: So you were still in Iraq when they did that?


S: That happened in 1948, of course, that’s right.


I: Shafiq Hadas was in fact Anti Zionist, he was Anti Israel.


S: I know that.


I: He was not [even]


S: He didn’t wanna help because he was afraid, he was afraid because he has so many people around him, and if he does something, they’re gonna tell about him so he refused to help. Maybe he helped on the side quietly, I don’t know.


I: No, no.


S: Ok.


I: I know most the prominent Jews in Iraq were not with Israel because they were afraid


S: Definitely, Definitely. Right, unfortunately this is almost the same people that were supposed to have peace now in Israel, right……


I: ok, when you arrived here, did you get any help from any Jewish organization or from any specific people here, to settle, to find a job, to?


S: I’m sorry but not really. When I came here and got married in Montreal, my wife had her whole family here, because she was born here, so uh, we didn’t need any help from any Jewish agency, or anything like that, and I immediately started working at the time in real estate because I had no real profession, I wanted to become a flight controller at Dorval Airport but I was a tourist here, I wasn’t a citizen, so I wasn’t accepted, immediately I went and filled up an application, they said “ Don’t fill up an application because you’re not a Canadian” so uh that was out, that was the only profession I had really as such. Apart from knowing how to open envelopes and open almost any door that I needed to open or whatever, but that’s not a profession that you could go out and get a job for.


I: translation


S: Pardon?


I: You could have used translation.


S: Possibly..


I: (nobody needed it)


S: Possibly


I: Do you preserve your Sephardi heritage?


S: As much as possible, as much as possible, except, honestly, I must say, since my wife is like half Sephardi and half Ashkenazi and they were more like inclined to listen to operas and things like that, so I now I mingle into that crowd to speak so. We have tickets to the Operas, or we have tickets for the Symphony, and that’s why when my daughter Amira was born, and we find out when she was only 3 and a half years old, that she loves Piano, and from then on it was.. She went almost every competition after. And when she was 15 years old she got first prize in Canada in Piano, and that’s why she got a scholarship to go to Julliard for 5 years, and now she’s a concert pianist, so from that point of view, I’m more also involved in classical music rather than the Arabic music.


I: Yeah but what I mean “Sephardi Heritage” I guess I mean the food, the holidays… not the holidays, the.. You know Pesach, Passover…


S: Right, all of that we do according to Iraqi things. Pesach Rosh Hashana and all these things. All the prayers, all the singing, I do as we used to do in Baghdad, but going to the Synagogue we belong to the Spanish and Portuguese for many years, because when my wife was born in Montreal in 1932, her father registered her as a matter of fact as she was newly born, at the Spanish and Portuguese.


I: Her father was Egyptian?


S: No, her father was born in, in Israel, and his father’s father.. They were there for about 400 years, calling it Palestine territory. He was born in Gaza, and her mother was born in Jerusalem, the whole family, yeah. They come from the family Rabbi Hida, which is one of the Kabalist, which is a known person. Haim Yehuda Yoseph Azulay, or something like that.


I: so it’s Moroccan?


S: Originally yes.


I: Does she speak french, Layla?


S: No. well she spoke French in school, you know, that much.


I: and what’s the most important thing of your Sephardi background for you, for the family?


S: well, we didn’t know anything else until the age of 17, we knew nothing different, because all the synagogues were the same. Like we were not even allowed to take a pencil and write on the Sabbath If we had an exam on the shabbat, we were not going to that day. So we had to do that on a Friday or Sunday or whatever. And we were not even suppose to have.. take money and go shopping on saturday, so it was totally, the whole community was the same, so you didn’t know anything different. And when you don’t know anything different, you think, this is your world. Your small world, the big world, that’s everybody is the same, until, as a matter of fact, to me it was tremendous cultural shock when I came to Israel. Here I come to Israel and I see young women walking with Bikinis on.. What is this [laughs]…. Ok?


I: And How would you describe yourself as an identity, what is your identity?


S: I’m glad you asked that question because, honest to goodness, I have battled with myself about that question, myself. “Who am I and where do I belong?”. Because of my wife, because she doesn’t speak Arabic, she speaks some Hebrew, but she’s not comfortable, like when we go to a Hebrew family, and we speak Hebrew, she’s not as comfortable as I am in the language. Or we go to speaking Arabic, she doesn’t speak the language. So when we got married we used to be invited to many homes in the Jewish community, but after a while my wife said, “You better go alone, because it’s.. to me it’s everybody speaks Arabic.. they speak English a little bit and then they change it to Arabic” She didn’t want to learn the language so she pulled me out. So instead of me staying in the community, I pulled out with her. So I’m, to me it really feels like sometimes I’m in between, on one side of the emblem I’m Sephardi and one I’m more Ashkenazi so to speak, so who am I?


I: are you.. How about nationality wise, how do you feel?


S: I feel that I’m a Jewish Canadian. That’s the way I feel.


I: And do you consider yourself a refugee or an immigrant?


S: No, because I escaped from Iraq on my own, but I became a refugee, so to speak, when I had to live in refugee camps. But we had to learn to do things ourselves for example: when we were given an apartment, the small apartment I mentioned, in Israel, for my family, we got a peace, a tiny, little piece of land. Now, for 2, 3000 years nobody worked the land in Be’er Sheva, so it was all crusty, salty whatever. But what we did, we took shovels and we started digging. And when you reach about 10 inches below, it’s a fertile land. So we took all the garbage out, a year later we had tomatoes, we had cucumbers, we had watermelon, we had everything. Why the Arabs couldn’t do it themselves, they can do the same as I can, but because we had the ratson we wanted the.. That’s what we wanted to do. Raison d’etre that, to show that we are better, that we can do things, we don’t have to ask handouts. We never asked handouts from the United Nations. We had to do it on our own, and that’s what we believe in. not like the Palestinians, after 68 years they are still refugees, still collecting money from the United Nations. We don’t want money from anybody, but what we want, what they took away from us. Our properties. In Baghdad, in Basra, in all these places, we want compensations, the same things a anybody else.


02:02:11:24


I: Ok, where do you consider home?


S: My home is Montreal.


I: And what identity do you want to pass on to your children, your grandchildren?


S: We are Jewish Canadians and we should continue like that.


I: And the language you speak to your children and grandchildren?


S: English.


I: What impact did the refugee, migration experience had on your life?


S: Trauma, because I was never used to such a thing. Running around like a.. Like scared rabbit, when you’re trying to cross the border and some people gonna catch you and put you in prison or whatever, then coming to Israel and staying in a Ma’abara in a camp, it’s called Pardes Hanna, which is near Hadera. I also found a tremendous amount of Haflaya which means between the Ashkenazi and the Sephardic, I’m trying to think of the word in English. For example, when I stood to get a job, I didn’t speak Yiddish so I didn’t get the job, and the guy that was behind or in front of me that spoke Yiddish got the job. And what is the job? Digging trenches. And as a matter of fact, the first job I got in Israel, I went to Tel Aviv, because when I left Baghdad, my brother Edmond had connections with some people in Palestine at the time… excuse me.. They build in Baghdad, in the summer Baghdad they build a factory of making matches. Wax matches, from wax. It was Jewish people from Tel Aviv who actually were the engineers. When I left Baghdad, Edmond gave me piece of paper with a name, address and phone number of someone in Tel Aviv in Rehov Herzel, Herzel street, I ever arrived there, to go and say hello, and that helped me, because when I did arrive there, I managed to go to Tel Aviv One day, knocked on the door of this guy, luckily he was there. I introduced myself. “I’m Edmond’s brother”, he was very excited, he wanted to know what’s happening and so on and so forward, and he gave me a letter of introduction to the Bank Manager in Hadera, that they should try and get me a job. So the bank manager in Hadera took that and he sent me a letter to the person who gives jobs in the Ma’abara. And I gave him the letter, the next day I got a job. Digging trenches in the Kibbutz. That’s the big thing that I did, my first job in Israel for 5,6 days, whatever, a week, digging trenches


I: What are you digging the trenches for?


S: For irrigation, you know, in the Kibbutz.


I: Were you paid for it?


S: Sure, sure. Another job I did In Israel together with a friend of mine from (inaudible) is Reuben Abed who now live in California, in Los Angeles. He was more courageous than I am. Where we lived there tremendous amounts of places with lots of flowers, it was all open fields. He came to me and he says “Sabih, why don’t we cut flowers as much as possible, go to Tel Aviv and sell it?”. I thought he was crazy, but then we did, we put it in a gooni [ph] which is like a sack, we put it on a bus to Shook HaCarmel, and I was really ashamed to stand, say “Prahim Yafim, Prahim Yafim”, “Nice flowers, nice flowers”. But he ws standing there, I was wrapping them, gave it to him, and we sold the whole thing within 2, 3 hours, on a Friday afternoon, because in Israel, that’s what you for friday, for Shabbat, most people buy flowers. And that’s how we earned our first few dollars, or few Lira in Israel.


I: Before the trenches?


S: After the trenches, [laughs]…


I: Now, would you… obviously, how would you would your life had been different, had you not left Iraq, had you not left, yeah.


S: I suppose I would have been, it’s almost really to conceive, because I can’t see myself still living with the people that I was scared of or disrespectful, because they don’t respect me as I am, because I’m not equal to them, because as long as I’m not equal to them it means I’m  second class citizen, and I don’t want to live in a country where I’m second class citizen, I wanna be like everybody else.


I: Now the last thing, what message would you like to give to anyone who might be listening to this interview?


S: Don’t ever give up on any ideal that you have, fight for it, even if it costs you your life.


I: Beautiful, thank you, now you’ve got some pictures to show us?


S: Yes I have some, and luckily, how I got them, because when my mother left Iraq to come to Israel, she was able to take some albums with her, and there was one big album that I had, because I used to collect stamps, and I had stamps from like a hundred years stamps from the time of the Turks, but they took that away from her at the airport.


I: Yeah


S: But anyway she brought, she brought the other, which is good to see for my school, from my things that I have done in Baghdad that proudly, I can show it to you.


I: Thank you very much.


S: Thank you.