Cleaned by: Rebecca Lash

Transcribed by: Unknown

Interview date: 10/18/2018

Interviewer: Henry Green, Lisette Shashoua

Location: Montreal, Canada

Total time: 01:17:10

Interview begins 00:00:16

Sassoon Shahmoon: Born in Jerusalem, Palestine, 1934. Arrived in England, 1938. Arrived in Montreal circa 1940.

[00:00:16] Interviewer: What is your name please?

[00:00:19] Sassoon Shahmoon: Sassoon Shahmoon.

[00:00:22] Interviewer: And was this your name at birth?

[00:00:24] Sassoon Shahmoon: It was. 

[00:00:26] Interviewer: And where were you born and what year?

[00:00:29] Sassoon Shahmoon: I was born in Jerusalem, 1934. 

[00:00:33] Interviewer: So let me begin by saying how much Sephardi Voices appreciates that you've taken the time to be interviewed. 

[00:00:40] Sassoon Shahmoon: My pleasure. 

[00:00:43] Interviewer: So we're going to begin something general. Tell me something about your grandparents. 

[00:00:49] Sassoon Shahmoon: My grandparents...well my grandparents were born in Iraq. 

[00:00:54] Interviewer: Your father's parents or your mother's parents?

[00:00:58] Sassoon Shahmoon: My father's parents. My mother - my uh, my father was born in Iraq but he, he, as a young man he moved to Shanghai and I don't know where my mother's parents were born. I assume that they were born in Iraq and they moved to India, where my mother was born. 

[00:01:23] Interviewer: So if we go back to your paternal grandparents, they were born in Iraq. 

[00:01:26] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yes. 

[00:01:27] Interviewer: This would have been 1880's maybe? 1870's? Something like that?

[00:01:31] Sassoon Shahmoon: My, uh, yes, I guess. 

[00:01:36] Interviewer: And do you know if they were Iraqis for many generations? Or if they had come from somewhere? Do you know anything about their history? 

[00:01:45] Sassoon Shahmoon: Um...no I don't - there was some suggestions that they maybe have gone to Iraq from Turkey but I'm not really sure about that. 

[00:01:57] Interviewer: Did you ever hear in family folklore that they maybe had gone from Spain, post-inquisition to Turkey? To Iraq? Any kind of conversation like that?

[00:02:07] Sassoon Shahmoon: I don't have any knowledge of that. 

[00:02:11] Interviewer: And your mother's parents that were Iraqi, do you have any sense of their background? Or they were also 1880's maybe? Any idea?

[00:02:22] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah, I would assume so. 

[00:02:25] Interviewer: But no sense of where they come from. 

[00:02:27] Sassoon Shahmoon: No, I don't, I can't go back. 

[00:02:30] Interviewer: Okay so your mother and father, your father's name is...

[00:02:34] Sassoon Shahmoon: Ezra Eliyah Shahmoon [ph]. 

[00:02:37] Interviewer: and he was born where?

[00:02:38] Sassoon Shahmoon: In Baghdad. 

[00:02:39] Interviewer: In Baghdad. And at what age did he go to China? 

[00:02:45] Sassoon Shahmoon: I think about 19, when he was about 19. 

[00:02:49] Interviewer: And do you know anything about his growing up in Baghdad?

[00:02:53] Sassoon Shahmoon: No. 

[00:02:55] Interviewer: Your mother. Your mother's name is...

[00:02:58] Sassoon Shahmoon: Lydia Aziza Haim [ph]. 

[00:03:02] Interviewer: And she grew up, she was born where?

[00:03:05] Sassoon Shahmoon: In, in Bombay. 

[00:03:06] Interviewer: In Bombay. And do you know anything of her life in Bombay?

[00:03:12] Sassoon Shahmoon: Um...I knew that she, she went to a uh, a Catholic school for her education. And uh, she was quite British her. She had an English accent. 

[00:03:30] Interviewer: And what year was she born?

[00:03:32] Sassoon Shahmoon: She was born in...about, well she died in 1988, she was 80 years old so 1908. 

[00:03:44] Interviewer: And your father, what year was he born?

[00:03:47] Sassoon Shahmoon: I think about 1897. 

[00:03:52] Interviewer: About ten years before. So your father Ezra, 1897, 1907...1917, in 1916 he's going to China. About - during World War I, he's going to China. 

[00:04:05] Sassoon Shahmoon: Probably. 

[00:04:07] Interviewer: Do you have any idea why he would go to China in the middle of World War I?

[00:04:11] Sassoon Shahmoon: Well, I don't know if it was in the middle of World - his brothers had gone to China also. Um...they were, you know, they went to China because it was a good place to do business, buy real estate uh...

[00:04:31] Interviewer: And your father going to China spoke, do you know what languages? Arabic and...

[00:04:37] Sassoon Shahmoon: Well he was, he spoke French because he went to the Alliance school in Baghdad. He spoke English and I guess he, he learned a little uh, a little Chinese. 

[00:04:52] Interviewer: Did you hear your father speak Chinese?

[00:04:54] Sassoon Shahmoon: No. [laughs]

[00:04:56] Interviewer: Okay. Let's go back to your mother. Your mother went to, was brought up in Bombay and do you know what school she went to in Bombay at all? Whatever British school it was. 

[00:05:07] Sassoon Shahmoon: It was a Catholic school. 

[00:05:09] Interviewer: A Catholic school. With nuns?

[00:05:11] Sassoon Shahmoon: I guess so. I'm not sure. 

[00:05:15] Interviewer: Okay and so in your mother's case, do you know, uh, did you ever meet your mother's parents?

[00:05:24] Sassoon Shahmoon: Uh...no. I, I didn't uh, I never met them. Maybe as a child, as a baby. 

[00:05:34] Interviewer: And did you ever meet your father's parents?

[00:05:36] Sassoon Shahmoon: Oh sure, because they were in New York. 

[00:05:38] Interviewer: They were in New York so you'd meet them. 

[00:05:40] Sassoon Shahmoon: They came to New York. 

[00:05:41] Interviewer: So when they came to New York do you have memories of them?

[00:05:45] Sassoon Shahmoon: Oh quite. 

[00:05:45] Interviewer: Tell me some memories you have with your - Ezra's parents, your grandparents. 

[00:05:50] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah. Well, my, my grandfather was a very distinguished man looking, you know, yeah. Um, he was observant, very observant, which was not that common among the Iraqi Jews. And uh, and my grandmother was uh, she was a quiet woman. Um...and they lived with my, my aunt and uncle in New York City. 

[00:06:26] Interviewer: When did they come? What year did they come to New York?

[00:06:28] Sassoon Shahmoon: They came when the end of, at the end of the Second, the Second World War, around 1940, 1945. 

[00:06:39] Interviewer: At the end of the war. 

[00:06:39] Sassoon Shahmoon: At the end of the war. 

[00:06:41] Interviewer: And what language did you speak to your grandparents?

[00:06:44] Sassoon Shahmoon: I spoke, well they didn't speak English so I learned a little Judaic Arabic as they...as they, I learned a little bit from them. 

[00:06:56] Interviewer: Did your, do you have memories of say your grandmother cooking or, or giving you food to eat? Or some kind of - 

[00:07:04] Sassoon Shahmoon: Uh, no, my grandmother didn't do the cooking. We came, when we came to America we came with uh, a uh, a cook with us. His name was Jakka [ph]. And he was Indian but Jewish. And he lived with us for a few years but they uh, the United States wouldn't allow him to, to stay in the United States. [00:07:36] So he went back to India. 

[00:07:39] Interviewer: So let's go back to your grandparents. What, do you have, what kind of memories do you have where you would do something with them? Do you have any kind of memory that stands out? They were traditional, so did you go to synagogue with your grandparents?

[00:07:55] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah well, they lived, they lived in an apartment on Park Avenue and it was right next to uh, the uh, Kehilath Jeshurun synagogue on 85th street. And on the holidays uh, we would, we would go and stay in the apartment in New York because it was a very big apartment. [00:08:22] So that all the family would be together. And I had my bar mitzvah in the, in the Kehilath Jeshurun synagogue. Rabbi Luckstein was the, the rabbi at the time. 

[00:08:39] Interviewer: And was Ramaz, he was with Ramaz already, was he not?

[00:08:43] Sassoon Shahmoon: Oh yeah, that, the Ramaz School was uh, was there. And when I finished, when I finished high, when I finished elementary school in New York my father said, well you have to go to yeshiva so I took the train every day from, or weekdays from New Rochelle to uh, to New York to go to Ramaz. 

[00:09:10] Interviewer: You went from New Rochelle to Ramaz every day?

[00:09:12] Sassoon Shahmoon: It was a half and hour on the uh - we didn't live... [laughs]

[00:09:17] Interviewer: 13 years old....I mean, it's a bit of a shlep. So you went to Ramaz. 

[00:09:24] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yes. 

[00:09:25] Interviewer: Ah ha. So you have a good Jewish education. [laughs]

[00:09:28] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah, pretty good. I had a late start though because I could have- if I had started in elementary school it would have been better. 

[00:09:41] Interviewer: So you, uh you, with your grandparents, the family would come together for a hagim or for Rosh Hashanah, would they come together for Passover too?

[00:09:52] Sassoon Shahmoon: Uh...yeah well, yes when my grandparents were alive we would, we would go there for uh, for Passover also. 

[00:10:03] Interviewer: And was, so do you have any recollection as a child having Passover with your grandparents?

[00:10:10] Sassoon Shahmoon: Oh yeah. My, the most, the most vivid memory that I have is that, you know, when, when you pour the wine for the, for the, for the plagues then you have to - well, we, we uh, our custom was to drop it out the window. 

[00:10:33] Interviewer: [laughs]

[00:10:33] Sassoon Shahmoon: Onto [laughs], onto the adjacent property. We were on the tenth floor, twelfth floor and the adjacent property was a store, one storey high store so we used to drop the bottle with the, with the wine there [laughs]. 

[00:10:52] Interviewer: It's a great story. [laughs] Okay so, so let's turn to your father then. So your uh, your father goes to China. And his brothers are in China. 

[00:11:06] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yes. 

[00:11:06] Interviewer: So tell me the story about your father. 

[00:11:11] Sassoon Shahmoon: Well...I don't know that much about him but uh, what he did in China he uh, he was a, he bought real estate. I mean his brothers preceded him to China. 

[00:11:25] Interviewer: What city in China?

[00:11:25] Sassoon Shahmoon: In Shanghai. 

[00:11:27] Interviewer: Shanghai, okay. And this would be, we're now talking post WWI, 1920's in Shanghai. 

[00:11:34] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah. 

[00:11:35] Interviewer: Okay. 

[00:11:38] Sassoon Shahmoon: Uh, but then...when, when my father uh, married my mother he went to India in uh, 1932 so he married my mother in India. And then - 

[00:11:58] Interviewer: Just one second. We're in - he goes in 1916?

[00:12:02] Sassoon Shahmoon: Pardon?

[00:12:03] Interviewer: 1932 or whatever it is, around that time but he's in India for 15 years. 

[00:12:07] Sassoon Shahmoon: No, he was - 

[00:12:08] Interviewer: Sorry, in China for 15 years. 

[00:12:09] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yes, until he, until he married. 

[00:12:11] Interviewer: Okay. So he's in China and he's bilingu - you have, he's buying real estate with his brothers in Shanghai. 

[00:12:18] Sassoon Shahmoon: That's right. 

[00:12:18] Interviewer: Is he part of a Jewish community? Do you know anything that he's doing in China at this time?

[00:12:23] Sassoon Shahmoon: Well I'm sure that he was part of the Jewish community. 

[00:12:27] Interviewer: There was a major synagogue in Shanghai that was set up by Iraqis.

[00:12:34] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yes. 

[00:12:35] Interviewer: Do you know if he was part of this at all?

[00:12:38] Sassoon Shahmoon: Well I'm sure he, he went to that synagogue. 

[00:12:41] Interviewer: [laughs] And then - 

[00:12:45] Sassoon Shahmoon: Because he, he was quite religious, my father. 

[00:12:49] Interviewer: He was quite religious. 

[00:12:50] Sassoon Shahmoon: And he also liked to ride horses. [laughs]

[00:12:53] Interviewer: And he liked to ride horses. Hopefully not in the synagogue. 

[00:12:56] Sassoon Shahmoon: No but I mean...

[00:12:59] Interviewer: So Shanghai uh, the, the Iraqi synagogue in Shanghai...um...was uh...quite distinguished and it was maybe, it's about a 20 minutes walk to the, to the centre of the British sort of high-end area, 5th avenue kind of thing. Do you know if he, if any of the real estate that they got, where they're buying, any sense of what's happening in Shanghai?

[00:13:32] Sassoon Shahmoon: I think they were in Shanghai, I think was sort of divided between the English and French. I think they lived in the French part of Shanghai. I'm not sure about that but...

[00:13:45] Interviewer: Okay, you’re right there was a French area and there was an English area. The French area is very opulent, very nice. And did he, when he was there, did he live with his brothers? Did he...do you have any idea?

[00:14:01] Sassoon Shahmoon: Um, I think they had a, maybe that had a house uh...I don't really remember. I don't really know, you know very much about that. But they, they had homes in, in Shang, in Shanghai. 

[00:14:20] Interviewer: So happened in the, starting in the '20, late '20 and the '30's was the Ashkenazi from Europe because they couldn’t get into various places would start coming across and then into China. And then coming to Shanghai and this Iraqi community began to help them. Do you have any stories of your father being [overlap]

[00:14:44] Sassoon Shahmoon: They had left, they, because. They had left, they had left China and they went to live in Pales - after my father married my mother in India they went to Palestine, where I was born. 

[00:15:01] Interviewer: Who is, after your father left China and went to India, to marry he then went to Palestine? 

[00:15:06] Sassoon Shahmoon: they went to Palestine. So he left all of...

[00:15:10] Interviewer: Left all of that. 

[00:15:11] Sassoon Shahmoon: Other people were managing the properties. 

[00:15:15] Interviewer: So let's - how did your father end up choosing your mother in, I mean, he's in Shanghai, she's in Bombay, you might as well be from here to LA, it's the 1930's. I'm not understanding the connection here- 

[00:15:28] Sassoon Shahmoon: [overlap] In those days you know, they, they made shidduchs [ph] as we call it. Um...uh, my father's uncle was married to my mother’s aunt, which I assume brought them together. 

[00:15:46] Interviewer: So there's a pre - I'm just trying to understand -there’s sort of like  a letter is sent out saying I have a niece in Bombay, are you interested? And a shidduch is made sort of thing? 

[00:16:00] Sassoon Shahmoon: Well, they, you know, I guess they, they spent a little time to get to know each other. I mean it's, it's, it's probably not uh, very much different from the way very religious Jews get married. You know they, they have a chance to...to get a acquainted and then they have to make up their mind...very quickly. 

[00:16:26] Interviewer: So your father goes from Shanghai to Bombay in 1931, 1932, something like that. There was already beginning to be unrest in China in the early 1930's. Do you know if that was an impetus in part for your father also leaving?

[00:16:46] Sassoon Shahmoon: No, the - it was, I think he was always interested in the, in Israel. He may have been there before he got married even for uh, for a visit. That's where they went after they married. 

[00:17:03] Interviewer: So they get married in 1932 in Bombay and does any of his family, is any of his family there for the wedding? 

[00:17:12] Sassoon Shahmoon: Uh...well...I guess so. I'm not sure. 

[00:17:17] Interviewer: No pictures or anything. Are there pictures?

[00:17:20] Sassoon Shahmoon: No. Well, we have a movie. 

[00:17:21] Interviewer: You have a movie. You have the wedding in 1932. 

[00:17:24] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah. 

[00:17:25] Interviewer: Fantastic. Uh, they get married and your mother, who you said was born in 19 - I forget what year. 

[00:17:38] Sassoon Shahmoon: 19....

[00:17:39] Interviewer: '08. 

[00:17:40] Sassoon Shahmoon: '08 yeah. 

[00:17:41] Interviewer: So she is already whatever she is then, what is that? 18 years old? I don't know...

[00:17:48] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah, she as younger than my father. 

[00:17:52] Interviewer: And um, they pick up and they go to Palestine. 

[00:17:57] Sassoon Shahmoon: Right. 

[00:17:58] Interviewer: And do you any understanding of why they did that? Just because your father Ezra wanted to go to Palestine? Or...

[00:18:07] Sassoon Shahmoon: Well they, they, they also knew people in Palestine. 

[00:18:12] Interviewer: Were they Zionists?

[00:18:14] Sassoon Shahmoon: Pardon? 

[00:18:14] Interviewer: Were they Zionists?

[00:18:16] Sassoon Shahmoon: Uh...yeah, I guess so. That was um, uh, we have this letter from, from David Yellen, uh He, he, he was well known from, he wrote to...he wrote to Flora Sassoon. Is that is Barbara? In London. She - he said that, "I'm here at the, at the Bris - Brit milah of your, of uh, your sister's um...son. Baby. [00:19:01] And uh, and then uh, and uh, and, her, my mother's, my mother's mother, grandmother had come from India to Palestine to be with her when she gave birth. 

[00:19:20] Interviewer: So you were born what year again? 19...

[00:19:22] Sassoon Shahmoon: '34. 

[00:19:23] Interviewer: '34 and were you the first child?

[00:19:26] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yes. 

[00:19:27] Interviewer: And do you have siblings?

[00:19:28] Sassoon Shahmoon: I have two sisters. 

[00:19:29] Interviewer: And what are their names and when were they born? 

[00:19:32] Sassoon Shahmoon: Rebecca was born three years after was born and Diana  was born three years after Rebecca. 

[00:19:40] Interviewer: And are they born in Palestine also? 

[00:19:43] Sassoon Shahmoon: No. Rebecca was born in Palestine. Diana was born in England. 

[00:19:48] Interviewer: Okay. So you're born in '34 you said and you stay in Palestine until what year? '39? How long do you stay in Palestine? [overlap]

[00:19:58] Sassoon Shahmoon: How long do I stay in Palestine? Well, we went to um, I think about 1938 we went to England. We were living in England when the Second World War started. 

[00:20:09] Interviewer: So do you have any memories of Jerusalem at all? Because you were very young. 

[00:20:15] Sassoon Shahmoon: Hm....no, not really. 

[00:20:19] Interviewer: And do you have any idea what your father did to make a living when he was in Jerusalem?

[00:20:24] Interviewer: Well, he was interested, my father was very interested, had his own ideas about what was, what was healthy and what was good for you. He liked to treat people. I mean, he was a very uh...he was a very successful businessman but his real love was, was...he had his ideas of, of, of uh, medicine and diet. [00:20:58] And...that he, that he pursued that with most of his energy. 

[00:21:07] Interviewer: So I'm trying to understand what this means. Did he, was he more homeopathic? Was he more vegan? I mean I...

[00:21:17] Sassoon Shahmoon: Well, I don't know, you know. He had uh, he said it, his ideas started when he lived in China. He has like a chronic cold condition and someone gave him some cloves and it uh, it, he found that it was very helpful and uh, he developed his own diet. [00:21:40] And then I think, you know, it was, there was nothing scientific about it. It was response of his body to, to, he was very sensitive uh, for, for what, to his body's response to the different foods that he ate. [00:22:02] But he was also very uh, a very active man. He liked to run. He liked to do push-ups, he liked to, to invite people to compete with him. [laughs] And uh, that was his nature. He was a very unusual man because he wanted, he always did what he wanted to do. [00:22:32] He, he didn't care what people thought of him. I mean when we lived in uh, when we lived in New Rochelle, where I grew up, um, this was a suburban neighbourhood. We had a big lake not far from our house. He would go, he would go and he would, he would, because he liked, he had, he liked to cook on a wood fire. [00:23:00] And uh, he would go and uh, collect wood and drag it back to the house and uh, and he would make a fire in the fireplace. [laughs] Now most people would find that, I think, a little uh, you know, you'd have people coming for dinner and you would be cooking the dinner in the living fireplace. [laughs]

[00:23:27] Interviewer: So was thought of as a bit eccentric?

[00:23:30] Sassoon Shahmoon: Did he think it was eccentric? I think that, he thought that's what he wanted to do. And he didn't really care what you thought. He was actually, I mean, a difficult father [tears up]. Um, to have growing up because he was, every time we would get sick or something he would blame my mother for giving us the wrong food to eat. [00:24:03] So we did have a little friction in the house, especially when we got sick. And of course she felt that she wanted to, she wanted us to have a normal diet. And to experience, you know, what other people were eating. So there was a little friction in the house. [00:24:26] Sometimes late at night uh, I was up uh, listening to them yelling at each other [laughs]. 

[00:24:36] Interviewer: What language did they speak to each other?

[00:24:37] Sassoon Shahmoon: They, they spoke English. But, although my mother did speak Arabic but she was more fluent in English. 

[00:24:47] Interviewer: So in '38 you leave, you go to England. And how long do you stay in London for? 

[00:24:53] Sassoon Shahmoon: Well we didn't live, on, in London. We lived, I have an uncle who, who had a large estate which has many houses on it. And we lived in one of those houses. 

[00:25:08] Interviewer: And where was that?

[00:25:10] Sassoon Shahmoon: That was in Kent. 

[00:25:11] Interviewer: Kent. And how long did you stay there for? 

[00:25:16] Sassoon Shahmoon: We stayed there more or less till the war started. 

[00:25:21] Interviewer: So a year or two. 

[00:25:22] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:25:23] Interviewer: And then where did you go?

[00:25:25] Sassoon Shahmoon: then we got on a convoy and we landed in Montreal. And then uh...

[00:25:31] Interviewer: Do you remember the name of the boat? 

[00:25:32] Sassoon Shahmoon: No. I know that when we got to Montreal I went to the Roslyn School and I was in, whose, whose class was I in Barbara?

[00:25:42] Barbara: Leonard Cohen. 

[00:25:44] Sassoon Shahmoon: Leonard Cohen's class. [laughs]

[00:25:46] Interviewer: Do you have a story about Leonard Cohen to share?

[00:25:49] Sassoon Shahmoon: No but uh, when we went to New York uh, my mother exchanged letters with the, with the teacher that I had and all the kids in the, my class signed the letters and I have a copy of the letter. 

[00:26:07] Interviewer: And so how long did you stay in Montreal for?

[00:26:09] Sassoon Shahmoon: We stayed for about a year. 

[00:26:12] Interviewer: And why did you then go to New York? 

[00:26:14] Sassoon Shahmoon: Because my grandparents had...had come in a convoy to New York. [00:26:22] Interviewer: So you joined the family. 

[00:26:23] Sassoon Shahmoon: We joined the family. I, people ended up, I had an aunt and uncle that ended up in Buenos Aires, Argentina so...

[00:26:33] Interviewer: And your father, what kind of business then did he do in America?

[00:26:40] Sassoon Shahmoon: He was a businessman. He was an investor in the stock market. 

[00:26:43] Interviewer: So did he have relationships with other people who were involved, other Jewish Iraqis or...

[00:26:50] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah, well, yeah. 

[00:26:53] Interviewer: Like people like Zilkha or...

[00:26:55] Sassoon Shahmoon: Oh Zilkha well, we knew the Zilkhas because they were a prominent uh, Iraqi family in the banking business. Um, there was, uh, there was...

[00:27:09] Interviewer: Did they come visit your house this family at all? Do you remember?

[00:27:12] Sassoon Shahmoon: I don't know. We always had many guests when the house was really my grandfather's house. On Sundays we lived in New Rochelle, on Sundays that was, was the reason for everybody to, we, on Sundays everybody would come on, on the train or by taxi to have a day in the country. [00:27:40] They played cards, they had tea and uh...

[00:27:44] Interviewer: And your, the, your father played cards?

[00:27:49] Sassoon Shahmoon: Uh, yeah, he played cards. They liked to play towlie [ph], backgammon. 

[00:27:54] Interviewer: So they played shesh besh. 

[00:27:56] Sassoon Shahmoon: Whatever. 

[00:27:58] Interviewer: Did they gamble? 

[00:28:00] Sassoon Shahmoon: Well, yeah they, they, they used to gamble. They used to play poker also. 

[00:28:07] Interviewer: Did your mom play gin?

[00:28:09] Sassoon Shahmoon: My - with me. [laughs]

[00:28:14] Interviewer: But she didn't play with the ladies?

[00:28:15] Sassoon Shahmoon: No, they, we didn't have a ladies game. 

[00:28:18] Interviewer: Didn't have a ladies game. Did uh, your father remained religious?

[00:28:27] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yes. 

[00:28:27] Interviewer: So religious means shomer shabbas? So you grew up with the Shabbat being important and Kosher house and...

[00:28:36] Sassoon Shahmoon: Friday night we had - 

[00:28:38] Interviewer: Friday night and did you go to shul Friday night?

[00:28:41] Sassoon Shahmoon: Not, not Friday night. We didn't - in New Rochelle we lived far from the synagogue but we would walk there on uh, on Shabbat. 

[00:28:52] Interviewer: And your mother, you come back, your Shabbat meal, what would - would your mother do the cooking? Or would someone else so the cooking? 

[00:29:00] Sassoon Shahmoon: Well, my mother did...cooking and father did cooking. And it, and we, the cooking for my father evolved because then we made, we closed the fireplace in the living room and we made a fireplace in the basement, which he could, which he could cook his meals on. Which he could cook his food on. And he liked to cook on a wood fire. 

[00:29:32] Interviewer: But Shabbat you wouldn't cook. of course. 

[00:29:35] Sassoon Shahmoon: No, of course not. 

[00:29:36] Interviewer: So the food would be prepared in advance. 

[00:29:38] Sassoon Shahmoon: Right. 

[00:29:39] Interviewer: and would you, would there be Iraqi dishes? Or Indian dishes? Or would there be cholent or what...

[00:29:48] Sassoon Shahmoon: No cholent. 

[00:29:49] Interviewer: [laughs]

[00:29:50] Sassoon Shahmoon: They were [?] Iraqi. My father liked to make something they called bulgur, which was meat and rice I think. Is it?

[00:30:02] Woman: [inaudible] cracked wheat. 

[00:30:03] Sassoon Shahmoon: The cracked wheat yeah. And uh, meat. And he would make his bread and my mother would make her bread and uh...and then it was...[00:30:21] We would sing songs after eating and...

[00:30:24] Interviewer: Like zemirot you mean. 

[00:30:25] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah, zemirot and then...it was a pretty traditional uh, uh...Friday night dinner. 

[00:30:36] Interviewer: Where was your bar mitzvah?

[00:30:38] Sassoon Shahmoon: I went to, I went to the uh...uh...Rabbi Luckstein's synagogue, Kehilath Jeshurun. And I had my, I had my bar mitzvah there. Uh, it was the first time, of course I did the melody was the Ashkenazi melody but the pronunciation was the Sephardi pronunciation. [00:31:06] That was the first time they had that pronunciation in the synagogue [laughs]. 

[00:31:13] Interviewer: And who taught you that?

[00:31:15] Sassoon Shahmoon: I had to, well we lived in New Rochelle and during the war everybody, there was a big empty field, not far from my house where people were, had victory gardens. They grew vegetables. [00:31:35] And uh, one of the friends that we made there was a Mister Marks who like a Hebrew teacher for me. But, and he taught me to uh, to read the uh, to do my bar mitzvah.

[00:31:53] Interviewer: Where did you learn the Sephardi, or Judeo Arabic uh...

[00:31:57] Sassoon Shahmoon: Well, because it's the - that's the way we, we uh read at home. 

[00:32:04] Interviewer: So through your father? Would you have learned it or?

[00:32:08] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah, my mother also was very knowledgeable. 

[00:32:11] Interviewer: Your mother could read uh...

[00:32:11] Sassoon Shahmoon: She could sing, she could sing uh, she knew the, what you call the trope you know for reading the Torah. She could, she uh, she was very well educated. 

[00:32:25] Interviewer: Did she have a nice voice?

[00:32:26] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah. 

[00:32:29] Interviewer: So you, what elementary school did you go to?

[00:32:32] Sassoon Shahmoon: I went to Daniel Webster school. 

[00:32:35] Interviewer: And were you involved in any activities at all? Sports, or do you remember?

[00:32:41] Sassoon Shahmoon: I was not very athletic when I was a kid. 

[00:32:45] Interviewer: Theatre, did you play an instrument? Music? 

[00:32:48] Sassoon Shahmoon: Uh, I did, I'd started on the pi - playing a trumpet but I didn't follow through. I don't play the trumpet now. But we did have a band in the school. 

[00:33:05] Interviewer: So you're growing up, you come when you're about uh, 1940, you're born in '34, so you're about 6 years old and so you grow up in New Rochelle. That's your and, and uh, and you talked about a story with your parents whatever and food but did you - tell me about, you had your own bedroom. Did you have your own bedroom? What did your bedroom look like? Did you have books that you liked? Did you have - 

[00:33:38] Sassoon Shahmoon: Not too much. I mean, I had a bedroom. I, I was, I collected stamps when I was young. Uh...I uh...I think I liked to play baseball and uh...and that was it. 

[00:33:57] Interviewer: Hank Greenberg was one of your favourites?

[00:34:00] Sassoon Shahmoon: I don't know. [laughs] 

[00:34:02] Interviewer: So your friends, your friends were Jewish friends? Non Jewish friends?

[00:34:06] Sassoon Shahmoon: Uh...both. I had a bad accident uh, when we lived in New Rochelle. I, I was riding my, I used to go to the store on a bicycle. I went through an intersection on a rainy day and I was hit by a truck and I, I spent quite a bit of time in a cast at home. [00:34:38] To recover from that. 

[00:34:44] Interviewer: What was your relationship, what was your connection to your mother? Do you have stories about your mother that you can share with us? 

[00:34:51] Sassoon Shahmoon: Uh...well...I don't know. You know, my...[00:35:00] My mother like I suppose, it's not unusual among Jewish parents made a fuss, made a fuss over me because I was the only son. But my sisters uh, were...didn't uh, they were quite upset about that. And uh, at nowadays, I don't have a, I don't even have a relationship with my sisters. It uh...it uh, it's unfortunate but that's, that's the way it is. 

[00:35:42] Interviewer: Your mother was a Sassoon so were there relatives that would come around? Sassoon relatives?

[00:35:47] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah. We had uh, um my mother's cousin was uh...uh, a Rabbi by the name of Solomon Sassoon. And he would come. We would see him every once in a while. He would eat in our house but we would profe - we would prepare fish, not - he didn't eat uh, meat or chicken. 

[00:36:17] Interviewer: Your father didn't cook for him?

[00:36:19] Sassoon Shahmoon: Well...he didn't - my mother did the cooking when he came. [laughs]

[00:36:25] Interviewer: The uh, I'm picturing your mother brought up in a sort of a colonial India, which is very British. She comes to the United States and and marries a person who is you know set in his ways in whatever but she also must have been set in her ways with her British upbringing, very sophisticated. You described her as being very intelligent woman who uh, you know, well learned. 

[00:37:02] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yes. 

[00:37:03] Interviewer: And so I'm, so...I'm just trying to, was your mother like an educator for you? Was she a nourisher? I mean how, how would you describe your mother?

[00:37:19] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah well I guess uh...I mean she was very, I was very close to my mother. [00:37:32] I guess she was everything for me. I mean uh, I didn't get encouragement to uh, to play ball or to, to, to learn an instrument in school from my father. Those aren't the things that he was interested in. [00:37:52] She, wherever we, whatever we, we always did she was the one that took us to whatever uh, activities that uh, uh, that we, that we were uh, we went to. She learned to drive when we, when we uh, after the war was over and peo - you can get a car. [00:38:17] She learned to, she learned to drive and uh, my father also learned to drive when he was 65 and he used to drive from New - from uh, New Rochelle to Montreal [laughs] because he started, he had Iraqi friends living in Montreal that encouraged him to come to Montreal and buy real estate. Vacant land from the farmers. And they would buy uh, they would buy these farms, quite a few farms they bought. 

[00:38:52] Interviewer: Up in Ste-Agathe area? Where?

[00:38:54] Sassoon Shahmoon: No, no in, in...well Pointe-Claire and in uh, in uh, St-Laurent. Mostly in St-Laurent. And uh...

[00:39:10] Interviewer: This would be in the '50's. 

[00:39:12] Sassoon Shahmoon: I guess so yeah, before the, before the autoroute was built. 

[00:39:17] Interviewer: Yeah, before the autoroute. 

[00:39:19] Sassoon Shahmoon: And when the autoroute was built it, it...went right through the middle of most, many of the farms that they bought. So...it was, it was uh, but my father was, had a very good eye for value. He was a very good investor. And uh, I see sometimes, I meet sometimes, when I go to synagogue, uh, uh...the wife of a broker that, she said everybody would say, "What is Ezra buying? What is Ezra buying?" [laughs] So they, they could do the same. 

[00:40:05] Interviewer: It would be like a tip, a broker tip. We're going to have to break because we want to take your portrait because our portrait person has to catch a train and then we'll come back and finish. 

________________________________

[00:40:18] Interviewer: We'd like to take you back - sorry - we’d like to take you back to Ezra, to your dad. Can you tell us about his cooking habits and about his spice mixture that we just heard about? 

[00:40:36] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah, well I told you about his cooking right? That he liked to cook. 

[00:40:41] Interviewer: Yes. 

[00:40:42] Sassoon Shahmoon: And not only was it a wood fire, it had to be in a copper, copper pots that, you know, they lined it with, with, uh, silver. 

[00:40:57] Interviewer: Oh yes. We had these. 

[00:40:59] Sassoon Shahmoon: And we have the special pot, you know, with the, with the cover it, it you pick it up in the middle, the cover, pick it up, you know it has a certain shape, the cover. 

[00:41:12] Interviewer: Do you have any of these?

[00:41:13] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah, we have some at home. 

[00:41:15] Interviewer: We should have a picture. 

[00:41:17] woman: What about when we went to get milk here in Canada and he wanted to take it across the border? We went to the farm to get it. 

[00:41:25] Sassoon Shahmoon: What farm?

[00:41:25] Woman: When we went to get milk. 

[00:41:26] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah. From the farmer. 

[00:41:27] Woman: Non-pasteurized. 

[00:41:29] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah, we got...

[00:41:29] Interviewer: And he went to cross the border right? 

[00:41:32] Woman: We had non-pasteurized milk.  

[00:41:36] Interviewer: Tell us about it. 

[00:41:38] Sassoon Shahmoon: What?

[00:41:39] Interviewer: Tell us the story of the non-pasteurized milk. 

[00:41:41] Sassoon Shahmoon: No, well he would, we liked, he, he, he would get the milk from the farmer and he would boil it. So...he, he liked to do things. He didn't trust anything that was processed. [background noise] He would do, he would like to make it from scratch. 

[00:42:06] Woman: Didn't he take some milk across the border?

[00:42:07] Sassoon Shahmoon: I guess we did. 

[00:42:09] Interviewer: And what happened in the border?

[00:42:12] Woman: When they found the milk?

[00:42:13] Sassoon Shahmoon: Oh. I didn't think we had a problem. They found it and were you there?

[00:42:18] Woman: You told me they dumped it all. 

[00:42:20] Sassoon Shahmoon: Oh they - 

[00:42:20] Interviewer: I heard that story I think. 

[00:42:23] Sassoon Shahmoon: Maybe, I don't know. 

[00:42:24] Interviewer: You went to cross the border and they did not believe it was milk. Right?

[00:42:30] Sassoon Shahmoon: It's possible. 

[00:42:31] Interviewer: Yeah.  

[00:42:31] Woman: But he's very well known in the Iraqi community for this spice mixture that he - it's almost like a patented thing. I'd actually like to know what he mixed. 

[00:42:44] Sassoon Shahmoon: [overlap] I don't really - you know he, he had to get a special ginger. He mixed it with other spices. I think my sister has the recipe but I don't. I don't have it. 

[00:42:55] Interviewer: He didn't write it in his book? 

[00:42:59] Sassoon Shahmoon: I don't think so. 

[00:43:00] Woman: Do you remember when they wrote- I was in Israel and they wrote the article and there was a line that went from the door all the way out to the street, people coming in for this mixture?

[00:43:08] Sassoon Shahmoon: Oh well, a lot of people in Israel would come, come to the house. 

[00:43:15] Interviewer: For what?

[00:43:16] Sassoon Shahmoon: To, to, because he promised to cure people. 

[00:43:19] Interviewer: Ah!

[00:43:19] Woman: Of anything. 

[00:43:21] Interviewer: Wow, so they just came and this was done as a hobby? 

[00:43:24] Woman: No. 

[00:43:25] Sassoon Shahmoon: Well, he, he wasn't, well it was, he was very serious about it. 

[00:43:30] Interviewer: Yes. I know but was he doing it for free? Or was he getting paid?

[00:43:34] Sassoon Shahmoon: He liked to get paid for it. He liked to but it wasn't really important [smiles]. 

[00:43:42] Interviewer: So did people pay or they-?

[00:43:44] Sassoon Shahmoon: I think, I don't know, I know there were long lines of people that would come to the house. 

[00:43:51] Woman: His mother was in the kitchen and he was - long lines and he would promise [00:43:57] Sassoon Shahmoon: people had all kinds of problems. I remember when he met the woman who was infertile. 

[00:44:01] Interviewer: And? Can you remember what happened to the lady who was infertile?

[00:44:07] Sassoon Shahmoon: Do I, do I, did she have a baby?

[00:44:11] Interviewer: Infertile. Do you remember [overlap]

[00:44:13] Sassoon Shahmoon: What did he tell her?

[00:44:15] Woman: No problem. 

[00:44:17] Sassoon Shahmoon: No problem. 

[00:44:20] Interviewer: Yeah he told her no problem. 

[00:44:21] Woman: No problem, here, and he blessed her...

[00:44:24] Sassoon Shahmoon: And he, he would ask to make a blessing, roofe holeh amo yisrael [ph]. [laughs]

[00:44:34] Interviewer: roofeh holeh means the...doctor

[00:44:36] Sassoon Shahmoon: He cures the roofeh holeh he cures the sick people of his people Israel. 

[00:44:46] Interviewer: Ah, God is...

[00:44:47] Sassoon Shahmoon: [overlap] God, god, god, yeah. 

[00:44:49] Woman: He really believed he was going to cure them and then he expected people to pay him. Something. 

[00:44:56] Sassoon Shahmoon: Well, he was a businessman. 

[00:45:01] Interviewer: And they didn't - 

[00:45:03] Woman: A few pennies. 

[00:45:04] Interviewer: And he continued?

[00:45:05] Woman: Yes. A few pennies. 

[00:45:12] Sassoon Shahmoon: No but when uh, when someone was sick and he wanted to cure them uh, I remember oftentimes he would leave the house with two shopping bags, one in each hand, and he was not one to take a taxi. He, he took, he would take busses or the subway and he would take the food to, to give it to them. 

[00:45:39] Woman: In Israel. 

[00:45:40] Sassoon Shahmoon: No, in America also. 

[00:45:42] Woman: But [inaudible] your cousin said he did that in Israel a lot. 

[00:45:48] Interviewer: How long did he live in Israel?

[00:45:52] Sassoon Shahmoon: Well no, he, he would go every year to Israel. 

[00:45:56] Interviewer: Yeah. 

[00:45:56] Sassoon Shahmoon: He had a house there. My mother, my mother would go spend some time with him in the summer but he was often alone there. 

[00:46:07] Interviewer: Until what year was that? Uh, well, in my, my mother died in 1988 and uh, then we had a Philippine woman to stay with him but of course we went, my sisters and I would go also to spend time with him. 

[00:46:29] Interviewer: Where was that? In Israel now?

[00:46:31] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah, in Israel. 

[00:46:33] Interviewer: Oh, he died in Israel. 

[00:46:34] Sassoon Shahmoon: No, then we went in 1992. 

[00:46:38] Interviewer: Yes, for a whole year. 

[00:46:41] Sassoon Shahmoon: For a whole year and we rented a house in Yemin Moshe and my father came to, to stay with us. And then uh...and then we left after the year. My sisters came for I guess a month or two. Then I came back to Israel and I brought him to Montreal because I couldn't leave him alone anymore. [00:47:06] And in uh...in 1993 he passed away in Montreal. 

[00:47:13] Interviewer: And he's buried here?

[00:47:14] Sassoon Shahmoon: No, he's buried in Israel. 

[00:47:17] Interviewer: Oh. 

[00:47:17] Woman: Would you say you were very devoted to your parents? Very. 

[00:47:24] Interviewer: So he lived in Montreal for a year with you?

[00:47:27] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah. 

[00:47:28] Interviewer: And you lived for a year with him before that. Now, you came back to Montreal in '89 you said? Around '89? 

[00:47:38] Sassoon Shahmoon: '87. 

[00:47:39] Interviewer: '87. He was now living in uh, Israel and still New Rochelle or....

[00:47:46] Woman: No, New Jersey.

[00:47:47] Interviewer: New Jersey. New Jersey and Israel. 

[00:47:52] Woman: Mostly Israel. 

[00:47:53] Sassoon Shahmoon: Well...

[00:47:53] Interviewer: So he really was very uh, Israeli at heart. 

[00:47:57] Sassoon Shahmoon: Oh yes. 

[00:47:59] Woman: He defected. 

[00:48:00] Sassoon Shahmoon: Every year he, I mean...he was, he preferred to live in Israel. 

[00:48:08] Interviewer: Where in Israel did he live?

[00:48:10] Sassoon Shahmoon: In Herzliya. 

[00:48:11] Interviewer: Oh beautiful. Do you still have the place?

[00:48:13] Sassoon Shahmoon: We still have the house, we rent it out. 

[00:48:16] Interviewer: Oh lovely. Any other uh, ideas - what about all those articles that were written about him?

[00:48:26] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yes well, the, that's what brought all the people. 

[00:48:31] Interviewer: Ah. Who wrote the articles?

[00:48:34] Sassoon Shahmoon: They were in, in Israeli papers. Barbara, you brought all them. 

[00:48:39] Woman: We have one from the Gazette. 

[00:48:41] Sassoon Shahmoon: Oh we have one from the Gaz - one in English but all of those articles are in the Israeli newspapers are in Hebrew. 

[00:48:50] Interviewer: And they discovered him? Somebody discovered him there?

[00:48:55] Sassoon Shahmoon: The word got around. You know that uh, uh, I don't know peo - the people would come to the house you know, to...

[00:49:04] Woman: But when you were growing up with all of this uh...eccentric ideas that your father...uh, how did you change your attitude toward him when you became grown up, to admire him for it?

[00:49:26] Sassoon Shahmoon: Because I realized...that he was so unusual as a person, you know, to do what he wanted to do. I had, I had a difficult upbringing with him because...he fought with my mother a lot when we were children. [00:49:49] But when I, when I got older I realized that uh, I really admired him. 

[00:50:01] Interviewer: And your mom of course also appreciated all those uh, all those uh...habits of his and [overlap]

[00:50:11] Sassoon Shahmoon: Well she got to tolerate them I would say [laughs]. 

[00:50:14] Woman: But they were very good habits. Whole wheat bread and uh...

[00:50:18] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah, I mean, basically he was a man before his time because his...[00:50:28] knowledge of health foods and things are, you know, he wouldn't eat anything that was processed. He wouldn't he was horrified when I, when he saw me smoking. Uh...he didn't, we didn't uh, he liked, he wanted, he bought water that came from the spring, you know, he didn't drink water from, from the faucet. 

[00:50:58] Woman: What he wrote about nerves in the body and foods from the bible. 

[00:51:02] Sassoon Shahmoon: I don't know how accurate, you know, what, you know when he wrote about medicine and how to be healthy. I don't know how accurate...

[00:51:11] Interviewer: Did he study it or...

[00:51:12] Woman: No. 

[00:51:14] Interviewer: Was it all inane in - coming from him?

[00:51:15] Sassoon Shahmoon: It's all coming from him. He didn't study but...but he, he, he, he liked uh, uh things, foods they call them biblical foods. Like, he went to Cyprus to get wine because yaim kafrissin [ph] you know, it's in, I guess it's in the prayer book, you know, mentioned. 

[00:51:40] Interviewer: And the ginger, what's the story of the ginger?

[00:51:44] Sassoon Shahmoon: I don't know the ginger. He mixed it with different spices. 

[00:51:47] Interviewer: And you don't know what spices. 

[00:51:51] Sassoon Shahmoon: I don't know. I think my sister has, was the...

[00:51:52] Interviewer: We can get it. 

[00:51:53] Sassoon Shahmoon: But uh, but you know, he, he, he had to check it out. He went, he had different suppliers, you know [laughs] to make sure which spice he, he got. 

[00:52:07] Interviewer: Amazing. 

[00:52:10] Woman: How old did he live?

[00:52:11] Sassoon Shahmoon: and he lived to a hundred years old. Which was unusual when he died in 1993. 

[00:52:19] Interviewer: He outlived your mom. 

[00:52:20] Sassoon Shahmoon: Oh my, my, she died in 1988 and she was much younger than him. 

[00:52:27] Interviewer: She died natural causes?

[00:52:29] Sassoon Shahmoon: No, she had a, what do you call? When the body...

[00:52:34] Woman: Autoimmune. 

[00:52:34] Sassoon Shahmoon: Autoimmune disease. 

[00:52:37] Interviewer: Sorry. 

[00:52:39] Woman: That was after a trip to India. 

[00:52:41] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah, after a trip to India. 

[00:52:43] Interviewer: Oh sorry. So you think the food in India might have affected her?

[00:52:46] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah, she didn't feel that she needed to, now when you go to India you have to get all kinds of uh, injections and things like that. Since she was from there she didn't, she didn't...

[00:53:00] Interviewer: Think she needed it. 

[00:53:02] Sassoon Shahmoon: She didn't think she needed it. 

[00:53:05] Interviewer: And she should have taken what shots?

[00:53:09] Sassoon Shahmoon: Whatever. 

[00:53:09] Interviewer: Yellow fever? Which one?

[00:53:10] Sassoon Shahmoon: I don't know. Whatever they give you when you go to India. 

[00:53:18] Interviewer: Were you at all involved in any Zionist organizations whether, when you were in the States?

[00:53:25] Woman: What happened on that trip to Israel? When you went to Israel?

[00:53:29] Sassoon Shahmoon: What?

[00:53:29] Woman: With the car?

[00:53:30] Sassoon Shahmoon: With the car?

[00:53:31] Woman: You went to Israel when you were young with a car. 

[00:53:34] Sassoon Shahmoon: Oh well, that's, I was involved with a woman that was not Jewish and so...my father wanted me to come to Israel so I did. 

[00:53:47] Interviewer: With her? Or without her?

[00:53:49] Sassoon Shahmoon: [laughs] Without her. 

[00:53:53] Interviewer: Yeah. 

[00:53:54] Sassoon Shahmoon: And we went by way of England because he always would stop in England to see his sister and uh, so I bought, we bought an English car, a little English racing car and...

[00:54:09] Interviewer: What car was that?

[00:54:12] Sassoon Shahmoon: Uh, I forgot now. 

[00:54:14] Woman: Corvette?

[00:54:15] Sassoon Shahmoon: No, not a corvette. Anyway, it was red, you know, you put the, you can put the top down and in Israel they never, they hadn't seen a car like that in those days. And...you know, some, you know, I would drive down the street and everybody [Hebrew]. And this and that, you know. [00:54:36] What kind of car is this? And...

[00:54:40] Interviewer: What year was that?

[00:54:43] Sassoon Shahmoon: Uh, well, I don't...I think it was after I graduated from school. It, what did I...'50, about 1960. 

[00:54:58] Interviewer: And how many girls did you invite in this car?

[00:55:04] Sassoon Shahmoon: [laughs] Occasionally I did invite someone to come and - 

[00:55:09] Interviewer: Now tell me how you met your beautiful Barbara. 

[00:55:12] Sassoon Shahmoon: Okay. Well, I was living in New York, now we're back to New York, and uh, in the summertime people would rent, share in a house in East Hampton to go out and spend the summer there where all the singles, where all the singles were. [00:55:34] So I had been doing that for a few years and uh, the last year was - I met Barbara. My father had got, when, my father married when he was 40, I think my mother was 25 at the time. So I always thought that I would, I would get married by 40. 40 came and [laughs] and went. 

[00:56:01] Interviewer: Oh it came and went. 

[00:56:01] Sassoon Shahmoon: It came and went. 

[00:56:03] Interviewer: And.

[00:56:04] Sassoon Shahmoon: And then, but I had met Barbara and we were together already for about, how many? Four years, I think.

[00:56:11] Woman: No, three years. 

[00:56:12] Sassoon Shahmoon: Three years. So I said, well, okay, let's, let's get married before I had, it has to be before I'm 45. [laughs] 

[00:56:24] Interviewer: So you got married at how old?

[00:56:25] Sassoon Shahmoon: I was, I guess...

[00:56:27] Woman: 44. 

[00:56:27] Sassoon Shahmoon: 44. 

[00:56:28] Woman: Just. 

[00:56:29] Sassoon Shahmoon: Just. Just, still 44, not just. 

[00:56:35] Interviewer: Where was your dad then? He was in Israel? 

[00:56:37] Sassoon Shahmoon: Uh, he was in, no, yeah well, I don't know he was at the wedding. 

[00:56:43] Interviewer: Yeah so he...he blessed the wedding.

[00:56:47] Woman: Yeah, so what happened with the ten children, he was one of ten. 

[00:56:53] Sassoon Shahmoon: One of ten. 

[00:56:54] Interviewer: How many boys, how many girls? 

[00:56:58] Sassoon Shahmoon: Well he had, one [counts] I think there were four boys and six girls. 

[00:57:07] Interviewer: Where were they all born?

[00:57:08] Sassoon Shahmoon: They were all born in Baghdad. 

[00:57:12] Woman: But not all the boys married. 

[00:57:14] Sassoon Shahmoon: Well...my uncle, one uh, you know, Rebecca's father, he had uh, three girls right?

[00:57:24] Interviewer: Rebecca's father was your uncle. 

[00:57:26] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah, an uncle Naim [ph] was his name. He died very young and he, when he, he went to the doctor's office and he died actually in the doctor's office. 

[00:57:40] Interviewer: Was he healthy?

[00:57:41] Sassoon Shahmoon: He was a smoker and he was somewhat overweight. 

[00:57:46] Interviewer: Oh. 

[00:57:46] Sassoon Shahmoon: A little overweight. Maybe it's not a good combination. And uh, then I had an uncle Ezekiel, he never married. and uncle Charlie, he lived in New Rochelle. He had four daughters. And uh...

[00:58:02] Woman: What happened when you, [inaudible] one son. The one son out of ten. 

[00:58:06] Sassoon Shahmoon: Pardon? Yeah. 

[00:58:08] Interviewer: [overlap]

[00:58:11] Woman: One son out of ten children.  So what happened when you finally had a child?

[00:58:17] Sassoon Shahmoon: When, when my son David was born, of course...

[00:58:22] Interviewer: The first [inaudible].

[00:58:25] Sassoon Shahmoon: They, they came, they came...

[00:58:28] Woman: From Israel. 

[00:58:29] Sassoon Shahmoon: They came for, for the brit milah, which was on Yom Kippur. 

[00:58:35] Interviewer: Oh. What a blessing. 

[00:58:36] Woman: And Shabbat. 

[00:58:37] Sassoon Shahmoon: Well, that, doesn’t matter if it was Shabbat, if it was Yom Kippur, anyway uh, so we had the brit milah in the Spanish and Portuguese in New York. They never had an occasion that, to have a brit milah and...[overlap] on Yom Kippur. What? 

[00:58:54] Woman: When you called Arnie Goldfarb.

[00:58:56] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah. 

[00:58:58] Woman: What did he say? We have a problem but it's a good problem. 

[00:59:03] Sassoon Shahmoon: Oh, I don't know. Anyway, so we, Mister Sherman, his name is Sherman, he performed the, the, the bris. 

[00:59:14] Woman: [overlap] The service. 

[00:59:14] Interviewer: Yes. 

[00:59:14] Sassoon Shahmoon: Unfortunately it had to be corrected a little bit later. He wasn't that experienced at the time [laughs]. 

[00:59:22] Interviewer: Poor darling. 

[00:59:22] Woman: You shouldn't have said that. 

[00:59:23] Interviewer: How old was he when he had to get corrected [laughs]? 

[00:59:25] Woman: Shhhhhh.....

[00:59:27] Sassoon Shahmoon: [laughs] Anyway. It's - anyway, it was uh, with the, and we, so we, at that time we went to Israel frequently with, with, with David so my parents, you know, could get - 

[00:59:49] Interviewer: Enjoy him. 

[00:59:50] Sassoon Shahmoon: Enjoy him. 

[00:59:52] Interviewer: That's beautiful. So David lives now in...

[01:00:00] Sassoon Shahmoon: Manhattan. 

[01:00:00] Interviewer: In Manhattan. 

[01:00:02] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yes, David lives in Manhattan. Oh he's back in New York. He got married in Paris. 

[01:00:06] Sassoon Shahmoon: Right. 

[01:00:06] Woman: Ezra's effect on this family, David wouldn’t have met his wife if he [overlap]

Interviewer: Oh, tell us how David met his wife

[01:00:14] Sassoon Shahmoon: Well David wanted, he took a trip. He said, "I want to go to Shanghai to see where my grandfather..." 

[01:00:21] Interviewer: Yes. 

[01:00:23] Sassoon Shahmoon: Lived for so many years. And then, and he met, he met Sarah, who, I don't know why she was in Shanghai but she - 

[01:00:33] Woman: They were on the same trip. 

[01:00:35] Sassoon Shahmoon: They were on the same trip and uh...that's how they met. 

[01:00:40] Interviewer: I think I read somewhere, I went to Shanghai to lean about my past and I met my future. 

[01:00:49] Sassoon Shahmoon: Exactly. Exactly. That's what when he spoke in the wedding he...

[01:00:54] Interviewer: Because of your dad. 

[01:00:58] Woman: Also, we wouldn't have moved to Montreal if not for Ezra. 

[01:01:02] Interviewer: Why did you move to Montreal?

[01:01:04] Sassoon Shahmoon: Because my, you see the, we lived in New York but my father - there were a lot of Iraqis they couldn't move to New York, they'd move to Montreal. So they said, come to Mont- they told my father,” Come to Montreal. You can buy land from the farmers, five cents a foot."

[01:01:22] Interviewer: Ooh. 

[01:01:23] Sassoon Shahmoon: And they would buy farms, not, you know not lot of farmers, about 2 million square feet of land. And uh...they bought quite a few farms. That's why we came to Montreal because we had all this real estate and to, to, to take care of. 

[01:01:46] Interviewer: Wonderful. 

[01:01:46] Sassoon Shahmoon: But we were happy we moved to Montreal. [laughs]

[01:01:50] Woman: David wouldn't have learned French, he wouldn't have met Sarah if we hadn't have moved to Montreal. 

[01:01:58] [inaudible talking]

[01:02:12] Interviewer: This is a tag team. 

[01:02:14] Sassoon Shahmoon: A tag team. 

[01:02:14] Interviewer: So we're back in Montreal now, you moved to Montreal. 

[01:02:16] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yes. 

[01:02:17] Interviewer: And where do you live in Montreal?

[01:02:19] Sassoon Shahmoon: In Westmount. 

[01:02:20] Interviewer: In Westmount. 

[01:02:21] Sassoon Shahmoon: And uh, do you know the Iraqi-Jewish community here at all?

[01:02:26] Sassoon Shahmoon: Uh, yeah, we came, when we come to Montreal I knew a lot of people in the community. But uh, we didn't share their simchas with them, you know. When they had weddings and things like that. 

[01:02:41] Woman: [overlap]

[01:02:42] Sassoon Shahmoon: We never heard from them. 

[01:02:45] Interviewer: Do did, was that a bit lonely then? Was it...

[01:02:50] Sassoon Shahmoon: Well, yeah, I think so. [overlap] she had known? I mean, she's....

[01:02:56] Woman: [overlap]

[01:02:58] Sassoon Shahmoon: We weren't, we have, they had a wedding, a bar mitzvah even though they all knew me very well, they knew my father even better we, we, we never heard from them. 

[01:03:13] Interviewer: So it would have been tough for Barbara. 

[01:03:15] Woman: Very. 

[01:03:16] Interviewer: Very hard but you, you, did you want to move back to New York ever?

[01:03:21] Sassoon Shahmoon: No. No. 

[01:03:24] Woman: We always sort of had one foot [overlap]

[01:03:25] Sassoon Shahmoon: Well, you know, um...[overlap] 

[01:03:29] David the technical director: [you can't have a conversation while we're interviewing]

[01:04:04] Sassoon Shahmoon: It was a very good decision for us because Montreal was a wonderful place for the children to grow up in. And they learned to ski and uh, you know, Akiva School was a block from our house and uh ...we're very, we're very happy that we came here. We still, we're still living here. 

[01:04:28] Interviewer: So you were married in '78, so you've been married for forty years now. 

[01:04:32] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah, 38. 

[01:04:34] Interviewer: 38. So 38 years. And you, when you came here, the community that you knew was more the Sephardi community? Or did you know the Ashkenazi maybe too?

[01:04:47] Sassoon Shahmoon: Well, we uh, we, we, when we bought our house we were, we weren't observant but uh, and we would, on the holidays we, for a couple of years, we went to the Spanish on the holidays. But then, then we became more observant and uh, and uh, so we started going to the Shaar Hashomayim because we didn't drive anymore to the synagogue. [01:05:17] Like for the, for the yahrzeit for my parents I come here because when they call you to the seifer [ph] the, they make what they call hash kabaah [ph] and uh so you, you don't have that in an Ashkenazi synagogue. 

[01:05:37] Interviewer: Your children when to which school did you say? 

[01:05:40] Sassoon Shahmoon: They both went to Akiva. And my son went to Herzliya. 

Herzliya, so they, neither of you spoke French right? 

[01:05:49] Sassoon Shahmoon: Right. 

[01:05:49] Interviewer: So did you learn French? 

[01:05:51] Sassoon Shahmoon: I'm embarrassed to say I still don't speak French well. 

[01:05:57] Interviewer: And you continued in the real estate business?

[01:06:00] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah. 

[01:06:01] Interviewer: And what did Barbara do? 

[01:06:04] Sassoon Shahmoon: Barbara...took, she took good care of us for one and then, she uh, she has a working with Moshe who uh, he comes, he comes to Montreal a couple times a year and they study together. 

[01:06:23] Woman: And write. 

[01:06:23] Sassoon Shahmoon: And they write. 

[01:06:26] Interviewer: And do you continue to visit Israel? 

[01:06:29] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah, we've, we've, we've gone uh, on quite, quite a few missions from Montreal to Israel. 

[01:06:37] Interviewer: Do you have, do you keep a home in New York at all?

[01:06:41] Sassoon Shahmoon: I have a brownstone, what they call a brownstone, which I, but, which I bought and renovated before we moved to Montreal. And I still own it. It has five apartments in it and we keep one and my son lives in one. 

[01:06:59] Interviewer: So you, because your son is in New York. So it's a connection. What about in Israel? Do you own any, do you have a place in Israel?

[01:07:06] Sassoon Shahmoon: We have, we had a lot of uh, we had a lot of, uh land with building rights which I inherited from my father in Herzliya. 

[01:07:20] Interviewer: Herzliya or [inaudible]. 

[01:07:23] Sassoon Shahmoon: No, in Herzliya. Uh, Herzliya...No in Herzliya, not in Herzliya Pituach is on the beach. 

[01:07:30] Interviewer: [overlap]

[01:07:33] Sassoon Shahmoon: It's not on, it's not on the beach. It's in Herzliya but uh, we have, I have sold it all because my accountant didn't want me to get involved in construction in Israel. So I sold it and we just have one apartment, a condominium in, in Herzliya. 

[01:07:57] Interviewer: And do you consider yourself to be a Zionist? Or involved in Zionist activities? 

[01:08:07] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah, I consider myself to be a Zionist. I'm uh, a little uh, I'm not enthusiastic that uh, that uh...there has, there hasn't been any uh, movement toward peace between...with the Palestinians. [01:08:32] I mean 2 million people, they’re not gonna disappear if this is gonna be an eternal problem. 

[01:08:43] Interviewer: I don't want to enter politics [laughs]. 

[01:08:46] Sassoon Shahmoon: Okay. 

[01:08:49] Interviewer: Let me go back to Ramaz for a second. Ramaz was a school that was a very good Jewish education and you said you'd be going to Israel. Do you still have friends from Ramaz days? 

[01:09:01] Sassoon Shahmoon: From Ramaz?

[01:09:07] Sassoon Shahmoon: I don't really have any friends from Ramaz. I...occasionally meet somebody that I knew from Ramaz when, when I go to the Spanish and....in New York City. 

[01:09:20] Interviewer: And are you still involved with the Spanish Portuguese synagogue in New York?

[01:09:24] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah, I'm still a member. 

[01:09:26] Interviewer: Still a member. And you're a member of the Spanish Portuguese here also? 

[01:09:29] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yes. 

[01:09:31] Interviewer: So let me then ask you some uh...final questions. Do you consider yourself Sephardi? 

[01:09:46] Sassoon Shahmoon: Of course. 

[01:09:47] Interviewer: And then how do you preserve your Sephardi heritage today? 

[01:09:50] Sassoon Shahmoon: How do I preserve it? Well, you know, I grew up um, in an Ashkenazi, going to Ashkenazi synagogues um. It's not a problem for me. I'm comfortable in both uh, in both environments. [01:10:18] I don't think there's any conflict between them. 

[01:10:21] Interviewer: And uh, how would you, if I asked you what's your identity, how would you define your identity?

[01:10:31] Sassoon Shahmoon: What's my identity?...In what way? I mean uh, I'm an investor, I uh, in real estate. I uh...I've uh, I uh...and I'm a observant. I think that's very important to, to...

[01:10:55] Interviewer: Do you see yourself in any nationalistic terms at all?

[01:10:59] Sassoon Shahmoon: Nationalistic? In, what, would I...

[01:11:03] Interviewer: Do you see yourself as a Canadian...is that some part of your identity in any way? American?

[01:11:09] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah I am, we are Canadian citizens, we're American citizens. Being Canadian and American, they you know, have certain uh, uh, disadvantages because you have to file taxes in two countries and [laughs]...

[01:11:25] Interviewer: I know what that's like. 

[01:11:29] Sassoon Shahmoon: But you know, it's useful going across the border is never a problem and...

[01:11:37] Interviewer: You uh, basically, as a child you left Palestine when you were eight years old or seven years old or four years old, four years old, '38. You then left Britain to come to Canada and then from Canada you went to New York. Do you, when you think back, do you see yourself as an immigrant or as a refugee?

[01:12:02] Sassoon Shahmoon: Uh, an immigrant. 

[01:12:03] Interviewer: As an immigrant. 

[01:12:06] Sassoon Shahmoon: And when you, you have two children, you have two beautiful children right? What kind of identity do you want to pass on to them?

[01:12:16] Sassoon Shahmoon: Well, it's important to me that, to pass on my Jewish identity to them. They are not so enthusiastic about that [laughs]. Um, my son, you know, it's little bit, I think maybe when he, when he has a family that that's the feeling that we had. [01:12:38] Because when I met Barbara I was not observant at all but when we had children it became very important. 

[01:12:48] Interviewer: Yeah, I can understand that. Have you ever, you've never been to China. 

[01:12:56] Sassoon Shahmoon: No. 

[01:12:57] Interviewer: Have you gone back, have you ever been to India? 

[01:12:59] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah we went to India. And uh...I met my cousin uh, who lives in England, my first cousin. He um, he met us in Bombay so that was ni - very nice um, because he, showed us where, where our parents uh, lived and uh...

[01:13:25] Interviewer: Oh that's very sweet. 

[01:13:26] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah. And then it's uh, there are lots of wonderful places to stay in India you know, when you travel. These old, these big estates that uh, that they own, I don't know the Rajahs or whatever. [01:13:46] Finally when we went, by the time we were heading home we had gotten sick [laughs] so uh...anyway, it was a very interesting trip. 

[01:13:59] Interviewer: Did you ever go back and visit Kent? Where you stayed on estates after, before WWII?

[01:14:05] Sassoon Shahmoon: Yeah, we did. I've done that because there's a beautiful view uh, from, from a place - in Kent where you can see to the, to the coast or whatever. What's it called, Moshe? From Kent you can see to the...

[01:14:28] Moshe: The cliffs of Dover. 

[01:14:29] Sassoon Shahmoon: Cliffs of Dover? Yeah. 

[01:14:31] Moshe: White cliffs of Dover. 

[01:14:35] Interviewer: What, when you think back to your father, what do you think is the most important lesson he taught you? 

[01:14:44] Sassoon Shahmoon: It's a good question. [laughs] [01:14:50] He taught me many lessons but uh, I think uh, to be observant um...was important. It's important to me to remember all the, all the rituals that we went through when I, when I grew up. And uh, And uh, of course he was uh, a very good businessman. He had a very good eye for value which I don't know if I inherited it [laughs]. [01:15:28] But I am a businessman. 

[01:15:30] Interviewer: Let me ask you one last question. That is that this interview um, will be part of the Sephardi Voices collection, it will go to the National Library of Israel and then be streamed we hope. It'll also go to the National Library of Canada. So people will be able to listen to this. And what message would you, do you want to give to them, listening to this interview? 

[01:15:57] Sassoon Shahmoon: Um...I don't know. It would be uh, it would be interesting to get some feedback if people knew uh, if, you know, had, people who had connection with my family...would get in touch. And uh...that would be interesting to me. 

[01:16:23] Interviewer: Well I hope that it will reach out to many of your family and friends and that in the future they will get in contact with you. 

[01:16:33] Sassoon Shahmoon: Okay, thank you. 

[01:16:37] Interviewer: Create a keshet for k’lal yisrael so thank you so much for taking part in the Sephardi Voices Project. 

[01:16:43] Sassoon Shahmoon: Thank you. It's been an interesting experience. 

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