Cleaned by: Mariel Langer
Transcribed by: Temi
Interview date: March 23rd, 2023
Interviewer: Henry Green
Location: Montreal, QC
Total time: 1:37:21
Henry Green (00:00:18):
Can you please tell me your name and your date of birth?
Sandra Koukou (00:00:24):
Sandra Koukou. 30 July, 1956.
Henry Green (00:00:30):
And where were you born?
Sandra Koukou (00:00:32):
In Tehran.
Henry Green (00:00:34):
And was that the name you were given when you were born?
Sandra Koukou (00:00:39):
It is.
Henry Green (00:00:40):
So I want to begin by just saying how much Sephardi Voices appreciates that you're making the effort to be interviewed. And, uh, we very much look forward to sharing it down the road.
Sandra Koukou (00:00:53):
Thank you so much, professor Green, for giving me this opportunity.
Henry Green (00:00:58):
So let's begin with just a kind of general question. Um, tell me something about your family's background, your grandparents, uh, what's, what's your family's sort of history?
Sandra Koukou (00:01:12):
We started in Babylon 2,600 years ago, and my grandfather Haspel Koukou moved the family from Basra in Iraq to Iran in the 1930s. So we never really knew the hatred and the persecution that the Jews of Iraq experienced. After the Farhud, my grandfather was asked to come to IsIsfahan, um, in Iran to join in a, um, car dealership. And that's how it started. He built a Jewish school in is IsIsfahan, and he built one in Tehran when he moved his family later. So he tried as much as possible to keep our roots and bring the other Iraqi Jews of Tehran eventually together in the synagogue that we worship worshiped at.
Henry Green (00:02:29):
Now, your grandfather, this is on your paternal side.
Sandra Koukou (00:02:33):
That's right.
Henry Green (00:02:34):
And his name was, what was his name?
Sandra Koukou (00:02:38):
Haspel Koukou.
Henry Green (00:02:38):
And his wife. What was her name?
Sandra Koukou (00:02:42):
Naima
Henry Green (00:02:43):
Naima. And was she also from Iraq?
Sandra Koukou (00:02:45):
Yes, she was.
Henry Green (00:02:46):
What about the maternal side, your mother's side?
Sandra Koukou (00:02:51):
My mother was born in <inaudible>, which is across the river from Basra. And her parents were, my grandfather was Seon Dudi, and she, her, her mother was Masouda. Now her mother had a brother in Pune, India. And when the war, the Second World War broke out, um, there was talk that the Shah, the former Shah, his father, the great Reza Shah, the Great was making friends with the Germans. Well, he just did this out of not knowing much, actually. He never knew how to read or write. But the story, I mean, the truth is the British took all the concessions, 80% of Iran and the French did know better. So he turned to the Germans. When the allies understood what was going on, they, uh, unseated him and replaced him with his son. Meanwhile, my grandmother was afraid for her se seven children. So she sent them by boat to India to be under the tutorship of her brother and his wonderful wife.
Sandra Koukou (00:04:25):
Um, they didn't have so many, so much means, but they were the ones who had a big long table on Passover for the British Jewish soldiers, <laugh>. And, uh, that's the type of people they were. So my mother eventually grew up in a British boarding school. Um, and the story is, I have to tell you this, uh, the boat couldn't moor in the port in India because there was something wrong with the weather or so they had to get off in, um, another port. But these seven children had nobody with them. So a very kind Muslim woman took them, Pakistani woman took them, and they, they had more than Pakistan. And she said, I will take you to my house. And she eventually took them to my mom's uncle in Pune by train. But she said, when you enter my house, I will bring out a Koran and you have to kiss it. If you don't, my husband will know you're not Muslim and you won't be able to get in. And that's how my mother, um, they were saved. Otherwise they would've been trafficked.
Henry Green (00:05:47):
So your mother grew up then in India and, and what, and with the uncle, and was it a, um, uh, a home in which, uh, your mother would talk about in terms of it being Jewish? Uh, synagogue, uh,
Sandra Koukou (00:06:05):
They were very aware of their Jewish roots. They were, there was an Iraqi Jewish community in India, and, uh, it was led by the Sassoons of the Sassoon fame. Uh, they were very aware of their roots. They were Iraqi Jews just like me growing up in Tehran Iraqi Jewish community. And I come here to Canada and I find Iraqi Jewish community the same thing that I grew up with.
Henry Green (00:06:36):
So your, your father, uh, your on the, his father moves to, uh, IsIsfahan. And here your mother is in India. How did they meet?
Sandra Koukou (00:06:50):
Well, she and her sister, my mom and her sister, auntie Claire, they went to Israel when they were coming of age in Israel. They found themselves in a land that was welcoming immigrants. And there was a lot of poverty. There was, it was a fledgling state. The two of them, I guess they wanted to go back to their Persia. And they told the army that we are, um, very religious Jews and we cannot participate in the, in the Army. And that's the way they found an exit. And they arrived in Tehran when my mother, she was very beautiful as a young woman. When she arrived in Tehran, my father's family was saying, you know, there's a new Iraqi Jewish girl who just came. And my father was this very handsome prince, um, one of the most eligible young men. And they, they made a match for them.
Henry Green (00:08:04):
So your mother went to Israel, or was it Palestine? Was it pre '48 or post '48?
Sandra Koukou (00:08:11):
It was post '48.
Henry Green (00:08:12):
So she was there, um, for how long? A year. Two years. Do you have any idea?
Sandra Koukou (00:08:19):
I can't say. I just had a, she told me this story of India, but I didn't ask more. I wish I did. Um,
Henry Green (00:08:30):
So she's there. Uh, after Israel is founded, it's, it's very, very tough. She leaves. Um, do you know how she made it to India? Uh, back, I mean to Tehran? Do you know how she went?
Sandra Koukou (00:08:41):
I wish I knew. I just was so excited that she did. Otherwise I wouldn't be here.
Henry Green (00:08:47):
<laugh>. And your mother and your, your mother's name was?
Sandra Koukou (00:08:51):
Evelyn.
Henry Green (00:08:52):
Evelyn. And, uh, her maiden name was
Sandra Koukou (00:08:56):
Dudi.
Henry Green (00:08:57):
Dudi. And, um, and how old was she when she got married?
Sandra Koukou (00:09:04):
She was in her early twenties. She may have been 23.
Henry Green (00:09:10):
And, um, and, and the year she was born, do you know that?
Sandra Koukou (00:09:15):
Uh, she was born in 1931. I can guess because she was seven years younger than my dad, who was born in 1924.
Henry Green (00:09:28):
So your, your father now, um, basically grew up in IsIsfahan?
Sandra Koukou (00:09:33):
In IsIsfahan. Exactly. Ishan since the year age of nine, since
Henry Green (00:09:37):
Since the age of nine. So he goes at age nine
Sandra Koukou (00:09:40):
From Basra to IsIsfahan.
Henry Green (00:09:42):
And, and, uh, and then, uh, at what age does he move to, uh, Tehran?
Sandra Koukou (00:09:48):
He was around 19.
Henry Green (00:09:51):
Sandra Koukou (00:10:01):
Sure. I mean, he wrote it in his book, which I co-wrote with him. He talks about Isfahan in his book. Um,
Henry Green (00:10:11):
What is the name of the book?
Sandra Koukou (00:10:13):
It's called The book, A Humble Quest into the Hebrew Scriptures. It's a short and sweet, very uplifting memoir of the time he spent in the prisons of Khomeini at Evin Prison, where he translated the Hebrew Bible to his cellmates and helped everybody survive their trauma. And when he came out of prison, he was the one who was uplifting all of us. And it's very unpreachy and it's very uplifting. And about Isfahan, he tells about how my grandfather was, um, he always dreamed of having the opportunity to get a, um, Western education. And the war had thwarted the efforts of building an Alliance school in Isfahan. And so he wanted to build a school for the Jewish children, uh, who were just playing in the streets at that time. And he wanted to raise the funds. So what did he do? He went to the synagogue and he asked the caretaker to give him access to some of the torrah scrolls, which were in very bad condition, and hoping to refurbish them and raise money, um, in this way, uh, to build a a school, a Jewish school.
Sandra Koukou (00:11:53):
But they were averse to the idea, they just wouldn't let him in. And my father was accompanying his dad, and he says that I'm not going out of here unless I have these books. And when I go out these Torahs and when I go out, I will go out with song and dance. And so they waited for an hour or so, and finally they brought the keys, uh, to the sanctuary. They opened the ark and they basically, uh, let my dad and his dad walk out with these torah scrolls. And lo and behold, what do they find as they're exiting through this little alleyway to get to their car is, um, there was a wedding happening. And, and so there were musicians and when they saw the scrolls, they knew the tradition. Like when King David moved them from place to place, it was with song and dance. So he really did go out with those scrolls, with song and dance. And he built that school. And it turned out to be the first school where the children did not have to sit on the floor. They had desks and chairs. And, uh, after when he went to Iran, he built a Jewish school there too. And the synagogue that wa but that he raised money with for that too. That was our Iraqi Jewish synagogue in Tehran.
Henry Green (00:13:29):
So in, um, so he comes to from, uh, uh, so why does the, does the, does his father, uh, your father, does, uh, your grandfather, does he move also to, to Tehran?
Sandra Koukou (00:13:44):
He moved the whole family.
Henry Green (00:13:45):
So he moved the whole family?
Sandra Koukou (00:13:46):
Yeah, five children.
Henry Green (00:13:47):
Five children. And, uh, your, your father is one of these, and he was number what in the family?
Sandra Koukou (00:13:53):
My father was the eldest of five.
Henry Green (00:13:55):
Eldest of five. And so they get moved to And what year did they move to then? Uh, Teran,
Sandra Koukou (00:14:02):
Um, I guess, um, my father was 19, so 24 plus 19.
Henry Green (00:14:12):
24 plus 19. That would've been 1943. So that's during World War II. So did your father ever tell you stories about being in
Sandra Koukou (00:14:24):
He did.
Henry Green (00:14:25):
Can you share some of those?
Sandra Koukou (00:14:26):
Well, the synagogue that we had that was made for the Iraqi Jewish community of Tehran, so we could pray in our own way, um, well, there was a man named Meir Abdullah who during the war was supplying the allies with food and, um, water and all kinds of resources that the, the army needed because the, the Russians and the British, uh, were basically using Iran as a base to, um, uh, block Germany from taking over because Germany needed access to the oil fields and so did the allies to help the war efforts. So this man made a fortune during the war helping the allies. And so my grandfather said, you know, Abdullah, you are old. You are, he was sick in bed. And he said, you, you're going to pass away without any errors, so you can do something for your community. We don't have a place of worship.
Sandra Koukou (00:15:46):
You can build a synagogue for us, and this will be your gift. This will be a great mitzvah. So he did, he says, but in one condition that you build it to look like an airplane. So if you, you look from up above and there's a picture of it. It's like this, you know, and my, somebody said, uh, somebody of our Iraqi community here in Montreal said that my son reminds him of somebody I know. He looks like Hascal your grandfather. They everybody loved my grandfather. And my son is a pilot. So I make that connection. <laugh> Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> with maybe it was meant to be.
Henry Green (00:16:37):
When did, when did Abdullah build that synagogue? What year was it?
Sandra Koukou (00:16:42):
Well, uh, it could have taken as much time as it took. Um, so by the time the war ended, it was, uh, being built.
Henry Green (00:16:54):
It was being built. So did your, did your father have, um, um, uh, any memories of, of situations of war in, uh, World War II? In, in, uh, Iran?
Sandra Koukou (00:17:07):
I was, I, I should have been more curious when I was younger to ask him questions. This is why I'm so grateful that just before he died, he, when he said that he's going to write, he really wants to write a book because he thinks it's important that he leaves a very precious, important story for us. Um, he, we wrote it together in this book, and he talks about how, um, well, when they knew that the Germans are coming, um, and the former Shah made a, a kind of an agreement with Hitler. Um, the Iranians already, the neighbors were saying, oh, this house will be mine and that house will be yours. They were already talking about, um, what the redistribution would be of Jewish homes and businesses.
Henry Green (00:18:12):
Tell me some, uh, do you remember your grandfather, your father's father?
Sandra Koukou (00:18:17):
Uh, he was a very, very passionate dynamic man. He would put us on his lap and feed us watermelon and drink his Iraq and play cards and talk about, uh, and play the radio. And on his radio, he would capture the, um, uh, waves from Iraq. His, it's nostalgia. <laugh>
Henry Green (00:18:46):
It, yeah. So he spoke Farsi and Arabic.
Sandra Koukou (00:18:51):
Farsi less good. But yes, everybody, we had to speak Persian. We were in our new country. Um, my parents, my grandparents, they spoke Arabic at home and we answered them in English. 'cause we were stu we were in an American school.
Henry Green (00:19:08):
What school did you go to?
Sandra Koukou (00:19:10):
The Community school of Tehran was rated as among the top 5% in the American system. And our teachers were all Americans.
Henry Green (00:19:23):
So you studied in English?
Sandra Koukou (00:19:25):
We primarily, and we needed to choose one foreign language, and I chose French, but the Persian students had to have one hour of Persian a day. So most of it was all English.
Henry Green (00:19:38):
So did you speak Farsi?
Sandra Koukou (00:19:41):
We spoke Persian, and we had to learn to read and write and learn about Persian history, which is one of the most beautiful histories.
Henry Green (00:19:51):
So at school, you, it was an English school, of which you also learned Farsi in the school.
Sandra Koukou (00:19:57):
That's right.
Henry Green (00:19:58):
Your second language would've been French that you would've also learned at school?
Sandra Koukou (00:20:02):
It was a community school, uh, uh, an international school. We had students from the United States and from all over the world. There were a lot of, uh, Americans whose kids, uh, were in our school who they were working in Saudi Arabia. And there were kids from Japan, from Korea, from all the different countries that made contracts with the Shah to build, um, the economy, basically.
Henry Green (00:20:32):
So let's go back to your youth. Um, so you were born, you said in '56, I think, in, uh, Tehran. And what was your house like?
Sandra Koukou (00:20:46):
Um, we grew up, it was a very happy childhood. Um, uh, we had a big house. Well, we moved, uh, from our first place, but I remember mostly where my grandparents lived on the first floor. And we were on the second floor, and we had a big garden and lots of fruit trees and vegetable patches. And my grandfather, as I said, would put us on his lap and, and we'd listen to the Iraq, the Arabic music, which still rings so sweetly in my ear to this day. And, um, I can tell you that my grandfather came back to me. I, I'm so certain of it, even after he passed, because one day when I was, um, visiting the religious city of home with my mother, trying to get the release of my father from prison, a mujahid put us in a pickup truck and took us, he was helping us and took us to Qom and put us in his mother's house.
Sandra Koukou (00:22:08):
So there we waited for him to come back and tell us that the Mullah in charge of my father's case, he was put in prison because they had a, he had a factory, and as a capitalist, he was anathema to the regime and they wanted it. So the excuse was to say, he's a scientist and they put him in prison. Meanwhile, we are trying to get him out so that we can all leave Iran, but we can't leavewithout him. So when I was sitting on the floor on the carpet in this kind woman's house, this mujahid's mother, she brings this big metal aluminum tray on her head and lands it down in front of us. My mom and I, full of big mountain of rice, steaming white and kebabs and tea. And then she leaves, she closes the door behind her, and we're just sitting there in the silence of this room in Qom, far away from Tehran.
Sandra Koukou (00:23:23):
Who knows what's gonna happen? Is Mohammad gonna show up at the, the door is this glass door? That's the way their houses were built. Is he gonna find the Mullah? How is he? I had no clue. So we just had to go by faith, as we al always do, um, faith in our creator. Um, he's gotta pull through. He has always, so he's gotta pull through. And all of a sudden I heard a voice and I, I I, I had to focus my thoughts and, uh, answer with my thoughts. And I, I, I, it, my mom would never be that silent for so long. But she was, and, and there was so much silence. So I could, I could have sworn that this person I know. And then finally it's, it, it looked like he, I could only see his face from, and we were in a car and he was behind in the car, either outside of it or inside, but all I could see was his face. And he, he, he said, where is Yusef?
Sandra Koukou (00:24:42):
So I realized, I know this person. And he caress, he loved my dad. It was his firstborn. And my dad was the kindest man you've ever known. And I said, he's in prison. And, and, and I'm, I am suffering here because, you know, I was a third daughter. My mom wanted a boy <laugh>, but he was always so he treated us all the same. And I loved him so much for the way he made no difference. And so I said, yes, and all I'm talking about is my father, and everybody finds me so boring. And he said, go and get him. I said, what me? Little old me. What can I do? Um, then he says, go and get him. Those are three times. And I remember this woman that I had defended here, um, a Quebecer, a lovely woman. She told me that she reads a lot about people who have been visited by their loved ones who have departed.
Sandra Koukou (00:26:04):
And they always come in threes. I learned this only 30 years later, but he said, go and get him. And then I said, okay, so use me as a tool and I'll do what you want, but help me. Um, and then I wanted to talk about the times he would put us on his lap and feed us watermelon. And, and, and, well, he's back, so I might as well. And then he was gone. So he was there just to imprint in me something and make sure that I would take that, and that I wouldn't be able to look in the mirror without taking it. And so I did. So when, it's a long story, it's all in the book. But when I was placed, uh, when I was taken by Mohammad again, all the rounds to the Supreme Court, to the city, this, that, I stood in front of the car of the judge, and I wouldn't let him go his car, go a bulletproof <inaudible> in the prison gates, and there's this big metal green prison door behind me, and I'm wearing the white chadar, which the judge recognized from Qom.
Sandra Koukou (00:27:31):
But, um, a guard came out of the car with a rifle pointed straight at me, and he said, what are you doing? And my mom, at that point, I fainted. And my and I just fell into my mom's arms. And when I woke up, she was saying, are you crazy? What are you thinking? I really didn't know. All I knew is that I had to do something to get him out. And so at that point, I thought, it's finished. I just ruined it. Um, but the judge had recognized me. And so the car went in, but the guy came out this time without, uh, <inaudible>, um, a gun. And, and he said, <inaudible>, wants to see you. You can go inside. So when I went in and he pulled the window down, there was this very handsome face of a red-haired goatee and blue eyes.
Sandra Koukou (00:28:46):
And, uh, a Mullah, Gilani, very cruel man. I learned later. He's the one who designed the method of putting everyone against the wall. And then they mow them all down, which they tried to do. And my dad says, you know, they put us all against the wall. And then I said, can I say something? And he saved the day. He saved their lives that way, just by his pure faith. So he said, who do you have here? And I said, my father, he said, what is his name? I said, Yusef Koukou. So he remembered my dad, the kind man who defended himself so humbly in the court hearing two years before. But my mom and I, for two years, she kept calling and they said, <inaudible>, call back next week. This went psychological torture for two years. And I knew that he was back on the execution list 'cause they kept on, the workers went and told them that, um, the Revolutionary Court that he's, um, he sent MIGs to Israel. And so, which is none of, of the sort, he just, his father just built a Jewish school. That's all he did. Um, and the synagogue.
Sandra Koukou (00:30:19):
And so <inaudible> said, meet me upstairs. Go to that kiosk. Who do you have with you? I said, my mother. He said, go to that kiosk. They're gonna give you two tickets. You have to hold onto them. I never knew until here somebody I met, an Iranian woman said, if you didn't keep those tickets, you would never be able to come out of that prison. So we met him upstairs. He said, meet me upstairs. And when I did with my mom, there were five people, of course, none of them with a cravat, because that's the Islamic garb. So they were all those people who were being paid by the people in the factory to keep the file under so that the court judgment would not come out. Meanwhile, Mohammad had given me an article from the <inaudible> magazine saying that there's an article here in the paper two page spread, and there hasn't even been a judgment.
Sandra Koukou (00:31:27):
So anyway, the judge said in front of these people, where's the file? I said, it's here. I brought it to the archive room. And I explained, I described the room, what it looks like. And so there was no more excuse. He said, I, he told those people I want the file on my desk Monday morning at 10 o'clock. And that unleashed a set of, um, processes that at least gave him a sentence of five years. His Muslim partner, three years, and the partner's cousin, the <inaudible>, The arc, the, uh, engineer two years, but at least he wasn't executed.
Henry Green (00:32:14):
So go back and, um, give us some context. Um, the revolution comes in 1979. Um, why was your father taken as a prisoner?
Sandra Koukou (00:32:28):
Well, this is the big, big, um, story that one day they came to his office from the Islamic, uh, revolutionary Court and said, uh, you know, your partner, um, <inaudible> a Muslim man Iranian, who was my father's partner for many years. And he said, we have nothing to do with you. Just, uh, you have to divest yourself from him. And they wanted to take him in prison. And my father being the mensch that he was, he couldn't, um, the workers loved him because anytime somebody had a daughter to marry or someone sick, he, he gave them money. He helped them out. But he, I guess they saw that he was still solidaire with his partner. And so he just got bamboozled in with him. And, um, uh, when he came out, it was four and a half years later, not five, because my mom met the garden of her sister-in-law, my dad's sister, um, who said, I have people I know in prison and I can pull some strings. Maybe he'll come out six months earlier. And that's what happened. It turns out that my Auntie Laurice, whose gardener that was, she had already gone out of Iran, but her son, he loved my dad cried uncontrollably when I told him my father was in rehab and close to his last days, and he had taken a picture of my dad. This is just after the revolution.
Sandra Koukou (00:34:35):
And, um, he wrote something behind what's written there. Here is a picture of a lovely man taken while watching the peaceful sunset from the, um, outside the kitchen balcony in the ASP apartment. It was an 11th, uh, floor. We, we lived on the ninth floor of a beautiful, very, very high, high-end, high-tech, latest technology, um, condo building that the French had built with a helipad on top. And the Prime Minister had the, the, the top apartment. And my dad had taken so much pride that he had provided for his family. Um, later I would come back from work and find all the drawings that I made in my room, strewn all on the ground. I had gone to art school in the Rhode Island School of Design, and my paintings of all these nudes were all over the floor because some ruffians from the Revolutionary Court while I was at work came home and looked through the apartment and my mom just couldn't stop them. But that was the, the, the kind of life that we led. Uh, we, we really lived in paradise in the Shah's Iran took this picture sometime early March, 1979, on one of the many Thursday afternoon lunches while he was taking a break from playing backgammon with Danny. Love Henry, February, February, 1982, London.
Sandra Koukou (00:36:20):
Um, he wound up in London and he became the photographer to the Queen, the late Queen Elizabeth II. And he's now slated to photograph the king Charles II's Coronation on May 6th. And I'm bringing him with the women's learning group of the Spanish and Portuguese Synagogue of Montreal, where we are sitting right now in the Mashal Sanctuary to, um, speak about the, his photos and his career photographing royalty, not only of England, but many other countries, including Oman and in India and, um, the Royal Cavalry. Um, but to go back, um,
Henry Green (00:37:05):
Well, let, let's go back to, to, um, you know, you're growing up, so you were talking about your grandfather and sitting on your lap. Um, so here you're growing up in Tehran, okay? And you're going to the school that you talked about. So tell me, did you celebrate Shabbat at home? What would a typical Shabbat be at your house?
Sandra Koukou (00:37:25):
You know, Henry, the worst thing was that we didn't know that much about our faith besides our family gatherings. And the many, um, parties we'd have in the community where everybody would invite and there'd 70 people. And my mom's table was one of the most delicious, everybody loved to come to our house. But the thing is that we went to an American school and we had Friday as a weekend to stay home. And Sunday, Friday, because it was the national, uh, day of rest and Sunday, because it was a, uh, a Mission Presbyterian school. I remember they would want, they wanted to convert us. Uh, of course we had, you know, a tradition that goes back thousands of years. We weren't gonna do that. But we loved our teachers, we loved our school, we loved our fellow students. We grew up elbow to elbow with kids from all the races, religions, and languages.
Henry Green (00:38:37):
So you went to school on Saturday then?
Sandra Koukou (00:38:39):
That's right.
Henry Green (00:38:39):
Okay. So Friday night wasn't really a Shabbat that you did. What about on Saturday you wouldn't go to synagogue 'cause you went to school. Um, so tell me about Passover. Did you celebrate Passover?
Sandra Koukou (00:38:51):
We did.
Henry Green (00:38:52):
Okay.
Sandra Koukou (00:38:52):
And that was at my grandparents.
Henry Green (00:38:54):
So tell, tell me what that would be like.
Sandra Koukou (00:38:55):
That was at my grandparents' house. And, and Purim, we, we would celebrate, we'd play card games and we'd receive gold coins. And, um, Rosh Hashanah, the Passover Seder is imprinted in my mind's eye forever.
Henry Green (00:39:14):
So who would be there and what kind of food and preparation would your mother or grandmother make?
Sandra Koukou (00:39:20):
Well, my grandfather would be at the head of the table and the fervor in his eyes and his love for his family and his community was so, um, transparent and, and so contagious. My grandmother would make all the delicacies like t'beet, you know, stuffed chicken and all the wonderful Iraqi Jewish cuisine, which is really the glue of our community because food is a great, it's a powerful connector. And I do remember that she would have these stuffed intestines and they were delicious. Um, and, uh, my father's siblings and all their families, so all our cousins, so we, we would be like a, a good 40 people around that table. Every Passover, every Rosh Hashanah. Um, we were very, very aware of our, um, of our culture and of our Jewish roots. It's just that we never really had the opportunity to do Shabbat like i, I have here in the west.
Henry Green (00:40:33):
So did you help your mother or grandmother cook for a Passover or for a Jewish holiday?
Sandra Koukou (00:40:40):
I helped my grandmother, actually. I was the only one who, they called me <inaudible>. They, I was the only one who would do, um, take the time to do these painstaking, um, uh, there, there are these meatballs that are enrobed in a white, um, paste made out of, um, crushed rice with a mixture of meat. So everything would hold. So you had these gorgeous little pearls, uh, swimming in a soup of let's say beets and meat and, and, uh, served on a bed of rice. And I, my grandma would say, to come down from the second floor and help her do this because she's having 70 people over. So I would make like a hundred of them. And they're very hard to make because they open up and, and they, they, you have to not make them too thick. And I don't know how, I don't do them as good now, but I did a really good job then <laugh>
Henry Green (00:41:52):
And did, um, so for Passover, you'd have matzah?
Sandra Koukou (00:41:56):
We did.
Henry Green (00:41:57):
Did you make the matzah, did you buy the matzah? Do you remember?
Sandra Koukou (00:42:01):
We, my mom actually, she made what you call <inaudible>. So she made these very, um, delicious wafers that I know a lot of the Iraqi Jewish women here do. Um, she would make the most beautiful little almond, uh, pastries and shape them like star of David's and put a, a little piece of pistachio on top. And, um, she would make, uh, my mom was the best cook in Tehran. <laugh> <laugh>. She, she made these, uh, cheese pillows. I still do them. My kids, uh, pine for them. My grandkids have them. I, I had to learn on my own. But that's another story.
Henry Green (00:42:51):
So when, uh, so let's just follow up on Pesach. So on Passover, um, would you keep, uh, kosher for the eight days for Passover? Or would you, you'd be going to school, would you just, what would you do?
Sandra Koukou (00:43:05):
Well, we went to school and the length and breadth of it was, we ate only Matzah for a whole week, um, the duration of Passover. And we grew up pretty much secular, which I find ever since my father and I worked on this book together, that, um, it didn't make sense at all, not to know all the things that I do know now that I now know after having worked on the book with him. Because he talks about the only book that they allowed him inside was the Bible and in the prison. So he spent his time having never been, had any reason to be very religious. Um, well, Jewish Judaism is not a religion. It's, it's just a way of life. Um, but he, he somehow found a lot of reason to have hope and faith that God will pull through for him as many people do of every different religion.
Sandra Koukou (00:44:31):
And somehow God speaks to all of us in a, in a foxhole. And so he started translating the Hebrew Bible to his cellmates and it made sense to them. And, uh, they kind of went through their trauma this way and he organized these speaker events in prison and everybody would have a chance to tell about something they knew about. And so there were ambassadors to the United Nations in there. There was the head of the Air Force, all the Iranian elite, along with my father, the capitalist. So he was somewhat, somewhat like my sister says of the court Jew <laugh>.
Henry Green (00:45:19):
So, so why do you think your father did not, I mean, he, the sense you give me is that, uh, he had a Jewish heritage. He, he understood. Why, why was he not sharing this in a more, um, in depth way, do you think? With, with you and the family?
Sandra Koukou (00:45:40):
You know, he was very tied up throughout his whole business life with problems in the factory. Like he,
Henry Green (00:45:52):
What did he do in the factory? What was this factory?
Sandra Koukou (00:45:54):
Well, he, they manufactured brake linings for cars and buses and trucks. And it was the only factory in the Middle East of its kind. And it was a jewel of a project because it was working very well without problems, even way after the revolution.
Henry Green (00:46:16):
And where did these get sold? Who, who was buying it?
Sandra Koukou (00:46:19):
Oh, he, he sold it, uh, to all of Iran. Uh, they didn't have to import, so the prices were lower and also to the Middle East, other countries, I imagine I I, I should have been more curious at the time, but by the time I came of age, he was in prison. So the only thing I could get was when we worked together.
Henry Green (00:46:43):
So you were born though in '56, you said the revolution happened in '79. So you're 23 already. That's, you know, um, so you graduate high school. And what do you do then between the graduation of high school, you're now, what, 17, 18, and 23? What are you doing in those years?
Sandra Koukou (00:47:02):
Well, I was, um, always, I loved to paint and draw. So I applied to the Rhode Island School of Design in the, in the United States. And it turns out it was the best art school in the United States. I got a lot of recommendations from my teachers, and I followed, uh, the stream. Like all of our fellow, uh, students, they wound up in Europe or the United States.
Henry Green (00:47:34):
So you moved to the United States?
Sandra Koukou (00:47:35):
I studied for four years, and then by the time the revolution happened, I was becoming incoherent. I was very worried about my father and 'cause I knew he had a very important interest in Iran, a factory. And, um, he wasn't ready to let go, not just quite yet. And there were a lot of Jews like that, um, <affirmative>. So I, I knew that. So you we're getting stuck. And I, I couldn't stay in the States. I could have I, but I was just a student. I didn't have, uh, um, naturalization. I, I didn't know how, how to handle things besides just sit there and worry. So they sent somebody to bring me back to Iran, and it was my father's partner, Javot, and against my, but I had no choice, and yet I, I was resisting. So I was caught between a rock and a hard place, but my worry about the family won. And so I went back to Iran. By that time, Khomeini had had been back.
Henry Green (00:49:00):
So when did you actually go back?
Sandra Koukou (00:49:04):
Um, it was in 1980, early 1980.
Henry Green (00:49:11):
So you went back after the revolution?
Sandra Koukou (00:49:13):
Yes.
Henry Green (00:49:14):
You went back knowing full well that, um, it was not going to be good,
Sandra Koukou (00:49:22):
But
Henry Green (00:49:23):
You wanted to be with your family.
Sandra Koukou (00:49:24):
How could I find I didn't have a skill other than art, you know, the suffering artists who can make money out of art. And I was just out of school, so, um, and I hadn't even finished. I, I was so worried that I was, I was incoherent. I, well, I was just scared and worried, so I went back into my family.
Henry Green (00:49:51):
Is your fam your father then arrested yet or not?
Sandra Koukou (00:49:55):
He wasn't.
Henry Green (00:49:56):
And So you, you, uh, you're one of a few children, right? So you're what number you're
Sandra Koukou (00:50:05):
I'm the third, my oldest sister. When was she
Henry Green (00:50:07):
When was she born?
Sandra Koukou (00:50:09):
My oldest sister was born in 1952. Maureen.
Henry Green (00:50:12):
Maureen. And then the second,
Sandra Koukou (00:50:14):
Henry Green (00:50:16):
Then you're the third?
Sandra Koukou (00:50:17):
Yes,
Henry Green (00:50:17):
'56. And then,
Sandra Koukou (00:50:19):
And my little brother was there, but he left to go to Boston University.
Henry Green (00:50:26):
And what year was he born?
Sandra Koukou (00:50:28):
Uh, in five years later. So 1956, 1960.
Henry Green (00:50:35):
Sandra Koukou (00:50:43):
He can't come back to Iran. And my mom had,
Henry Green (00:50:46):
But how come you could come back and he couldn't?
Sandra Koukou (00:50:48):
Oh, no. He was five years younger than me. So when I came back, he was still in high school.
Henry Green (00:50:54):
He's still, so everyone, your whole family's there when you go back?
Sandra Koukou (00:50:57):
Yes.
Henry Green (00:50:58):
Okay.
Sandra Koukou (00:50:59):
Well, actually when I, uh, no, he had already gone to university? No, he had gone after, after I came back very, very soon after I came back.
Henry Green (00:51:12):
So you come back and he leaves,
Sandra Koukou (00:51:16):
They had to ship him out. Yes, but I was the sacrificial lamb <laugh>.
Henry Green (00:51:22):
Explain why he would be shipped out and you're the sacrificial lamb.
Sandra Koukou (00:51:26):
Well, he, I did my studies and he had to have his studies, so he was sent to university, but after a while, it was difficult to pay for his scholarity because, uh, the partner was, um, they were blocking the funds. They weren't letting my mother send money to her, uh, to, for his upkeep. Food and
Henry Green (00:52:02):
So what happened to him? He stayed in the States?
Sandra Koukou (00:52:05):
Yes. And he had a very hard time, but thank God he had a lot of friends in university BU Boston University, Iraqi Jewish kids who went to the same university.
Henry Green (00:52:18):
What happened to him in his life? Where did he end up?
Sandra Koukou (00:52:21):
He wound up, um, meeting my father years later after my father came out by contraband, uh, in New York. And he started a business, uh, selling called he had a store called Sprint, uh, selling Nike and, uh, footwear and, and, um, sportswear. Um,
Henry Green (00:52:47):
And is he still there in New York,
Sandra Koukou (00:52:48):
Or, um, he sold eventually and then followed his wife, who, uh, was, uh, Iraqi Jewish from London and lived in London for many years, after which a friend from high school, an Iranian friend, uh, from way back in community school, uh, told him, you can come and be an investor with me in an investing firm in Boulder, Colorado. And he lives there since then.
Henry Green (00:53:19):
What about your two sisters? Were they're now home, you're with your two sisters, or had they married, or what happened to them?
Sandra Koukou (00:53:24):
One of my sisters, the oldest was in Iran, and she was a secretary and she had, uh, two kids. And, um, she was, it was a very tough situation. Her husband was an architect. Um, they, they really wanted to get out and the way all the Jews were doing, they were going by contraband, but we can't, without our dad. We had to get 'em out. And so they were waiting it out, like true soldiers. And, um, my oldest, my other older sister, Cynthia, had already been married before the Revolution. And she was married in Italy. So she was living in Naples, and she had, her three girls were actually two at that time. And her third was born in the States after they moved all to Great Neck in the United States. Um, so she was really worried. But Henry, listen, when I was still in the States right before, um, way before the revolution, I would say in 1975, I would visit my friend Elizabeth, um, no, sorry, that was in Ann Arbor, Michigan.
Sandra Koukou (00:54:57):
But my other friend, Heidi Fogel, her father used to work at NASA, but that's another story. I I used to visit them in, um, Newton, Massachusetts, um, from Rhode Island. It's just an hour for Thanksgiving break, you know, and they would be so nice to me. And, and he would sit me down, her father, and he would say, you know, I wanna tell you something that I want you to go and tell your father. This regime is not going to last. And he saw the incredulity on my face. Like none of us would ever imagine that the Shah, the one who kept the balance of power in the Middle East, would go one day. And he said, you tell your, what does he have? I said, he has a factory. He said, tell him to leave. It's not good. What's gonna happen? The Americans, they already knew what they were going to do.
Sandra Koukou (00:56:07):
And I say this because it's a known fact that, um, there were British and American warships in the Persian Gulf trying to ensure that Khomeini would make it back to Iran after his exile. This revolution was aided and abbit abed by the powers that be, probably because Russia was in Afghanistan, and the, they were afraid that they would find their way to Iran. So the best way to put a bulwark against a Russian pull through Iran, which they wanted the warm water ports, was religion. So bring back. And we used to joke around, you know, we used to joke that underneath the abaya, the, the, the headdress of the Mullahs one had an American flag, and another a British flag. <laugh>. It's not a secret.
Henry Green (00:57:17):
So let, let me go back though, to just your, your family then. So your family, you're growing up, you're growing up in the fifties, you're born in '56, so you're really growing up in the sixties. Okay. And early seventies. Um, so here's a few questions that sort of connect to this. Do your parents, did they wear western dress?
Sandra Koukou (00:57:38):
Of course.
Henry Green (00:57:39):
Did your grandparents wear Western dress?
Sandra Koukou (00:57:41):
Of course.
Henry Green (00:57:42):
Did the people at your school wear Western dress?
Sandra Koukou (00:57:45):
Of course.
Henry Green (00:57:46):
Okay. Did you have help in your house?
Sandra Koukou (00:57:49):
We did. I did a painting of our helper right before, uh, leaving, and I brought it out and, um, it was just a spur of the moment, but it was one of the best things I ever did. Um, we had a maid who, who came every day. Sh we didn't have, at the time, there weren't washing machines. She would wash the clothes. Uh, she would iron, she would, uh, we had carpets, huge, beautiful Persian carpets in every single room. She would, uh, sweep the floors. We had a cook.
Henry Green (00:58:30):
You had a cook too. So was the cook, the person who came and cleaned, were there Muslims or were they
Sandra Koukou (00:58:35):
Yes, they were.
Henry Green (00:58:36):
They were Muslims. And how did they dress?
Sandra Koukou (00:58:39):
Um, she wore traditional chadar and underneath she had these long <inaudible>, these pants and, uh, a dress on top. And um,
Henry Green (00:58:55):
Did your, did your parents have, uh, Muslim friends?
Sandra Koukou (00:59:00):
They did. Well, my father's partner was Muslim.
Henry Green (00:59:03):
Did they, but these Muslim friends, did they, um, did they come visit you at their homes? Did your father invite them?
Sandra Koukou (00:59:10):
Um, I don't remember having many comings and goings other than with the <inaudible>, his partner. Do you
Henry Green (00:59:18):
Remember going to homes that were Muslim houses?
Sandra Koukou (00:59:23):
My best friend from from school, her name is Vida Mazami, and I used to go to her house when we were in second, third, fourth grade. And I remember the delicious Persian food, and they had a cook. Her mother was a doctor, her father was a doctor. And years later, now we still communicate.
Henry Green (00:59:52):
And she lives where?
Sandra Koukou (00:59:53):
She's now in Texas.
Henry Green (00:59:55):
Texas. And was her the, her parents, did they dress western? Did they dress?
Sandra Koukou (01:00:01):
Yes. Um, you see a lot of the kids in our school were from the 1000 great families of the Persian aristocracy. Um, she comes from, she's related to Zahedi, um, the Foreign Minister, Prime. Oh, I might don't, is I might be mistaken.
Henry Green (01:00:30):
The general sense, though, what I'm getting is that the, the help would be more traditional, but your.
Sandra Koukou (01:00:37):
Yes.
Henry Green (01:00:38):
School and your father's, um,
Sandra Koukou (01:00:41):
Uh, they were all westernized.
Henry Green (01:00:43):
All Westernized. And everyone spoke English.
Sandra Koukou (01:00:46):
They all did. Yes.
Henry Green (01:00:47):
Is that the language you spoke with them or did you speak Farsi, or what did you speak?
Sandra Koukou (01:00:51):
Uh, with the Iranians. Farsi, but between me and my friends, Bebe, who, whose father was ambassador to Sweden, whom I visited in Vancouver, where she lives, I sold her three big paintings, uh, of a big scene in Iran. Her, you know, we're all westernized. Uh, she went to, uh, Harvard. But
Henry Green (01:01:14):
But you're speaking, but you're speaking English to them?
Sandra Koukou (01:01:16):
We speak in English,
Henry Green (01:01:17):
But to the parents, you'd be speaking Farsi
Sandra Koukou (01:01:20):
To my parents, we'd
Henry Green (01:01:21):
Not in. When you visit these homes or your friends' homes
Sandra Koukou (01:01:24):
In, well, I didn't see her parents. They passed away, but, or they at that.
Henry Green (01:01:29):
But in Tehran, when you would go visit other homes or did you visit other homes?
Sandra Koukou (01:01:33):
Oh, I would speak, that's a very good question. To Vida's parents, I would speak in Persian.
Henry Green (01:01:43):
So, so this kids in the school, you spoke English?
Sandra Koukou (01:01:46):
Yes.
Henry Green (01:01:46):
When you would go visit a home.
Sandra Koukou (01:01:49):
Yes.
Henry Green (01:01:49):
Of kids, then you would speak Persian.
Sandra Koukou (01:01:52):
That's right.
Henry Green (01:01:53):
And you did not know Arabic, you did not know, or
Sandra Koukou (01:01:58):
We heard Arabic at home because our parents spoke in Arabic to each other. And when they addressed us, it was in Arabic. We understood perfectly, but we answered in English <laugh>.
Henry Green (01:02:09):
But you answered in English. When you'd go to these other Iraqi homes, did you go to other Iraqi homes?
Sandra Koukou (01:02:14):
They would speak to us in Arabic and English and Persian. It was a mishmash.
Henry Green (01:02:19):
A mishmash. But the help always would be traditional Muslims in these homes?
Sandra Koukou (01:02:23):
Yes, and I do remember that, um, during the six day war, like I never, never saw antisemitism from the Persians. They are the cutest, most beautiful people in the world, the most hospitable. You walk into their home and all they want is to feed you. And their food is 2000 years old. It's the most beautiful cuisine. But I do remember that our ma, my grandfather, who was a real proponent for Israel, and he would be jubilating during the '67 war, he'd be heard all over the house. And he was so happy when Israel, uh, forted the enemies, five armies attacked at once. But I do remember the maid saying, Hannam Koukou, uh, this is not, um, you know, your grandfather Koukou is going around his, but these are our Muslim brothers. But you see, everyone is told the narrative that their people want them to hear.
Henry Green (01:03:47):
So, so let's focus on this for a second, Israel. So would you go out and talk about at school, would you say Israel won the war and
Sandra Koukou (01:03:58):
No, we wouldn't.
Henry Green (01:03:58):
So why wouldn't you talk about Israel? You talk about Israel in the house and celebrate, but outside the house,
Sandra Koukou (01:04:04):
No, we just keep quiet. Would
Henry Green (01:04:06):
Would be quiet.
Sandra Koukou (01:04:07):
You don't go about.
Henry Green (01:04:08):
Did you know to do that? Did your parents tell you that? Or did you instinctively, is it like here you have all this jubilation in the house and then outside you're telling me, how did you know to do that?
Sandra Koukou (01:04:23):
Um, well, as Iraqi Jews, we were always aware of our tendency to be understated and to just keep to ourselves. We, this is what I mean. Just the fact that we didn't have Cummings and goings with anyone. I don't remember having those. I I, I imagine in the Jews of Iraq, they had more of that interaction, you know, with friends and neighbors who were very kind and like this buddies with them. But in Iran, we were an Iraqi Jewish community. And the ones that we met outside of school on we weekends, it was just basically our Iraqi Jewish friends.
Henry Green (01:05:08):
So, so your contact with Muslims then outside the house
Sandra Koukou (01:05:12):
Was limited,
Henry Green (01:05:13):
Was very limited. And your, um, uh, acknowledging your Jewish identity outside the house was very limited.
Sandra Koukou (01:05:22):
Very understated.
Henry Green (01:05:24):
Very understated. How many Jews were at the school you were at, do you think, like in your class? How many?
Sandra Koukou (01:05:30):
Many,
Henry Green (01:05:31):
Many. So in your class, many 30 students, let's say how many? 30, 25,
Sandra Koukou (01:05:36):
At least 10 of them of were Iraqi Jews,
Henry Green (01:05:39):
10 of the class. So say 30% were Jewish. Okay. In that class.
Sandra Koukou (01:05:43):
And we were all part of the honor society,
Henry Green (01:05:46):
But so did Jewish ever come up in the class? Did Jewish ever get at 30%.
Sandra Koukou (01:05:56):
In those days, Henry, it was a heyday. It was, I call it the last golden age the world ever knew. We grew up in the, the Shahs Iran. And as my dad says, there was a never better time in Iran for the Jews than during the reign of Reza Shah, the father and his son. And I remember actually, there was a time when there was a bomb threat during Yom Kippur and, uh, that our synagogue was being targeted, but the Shah quickly sent out an edict and security and a law saying that nobody can touch the Jews. And um, I read in a book to this point, uh, called a book called Esther's Children that was translated from the Persian. My dad's picture is in there. He was like 15. In that picture, in Isfahan. But in that book it says that, and this is very, it's not known at all that there, the, the, the currency, the the paper bank notes of, of the Shah at a time.
Sandra Koukou (01:07:21):
There used to be a, um, uh, mention of the Zionist state. I mean, I think there was a star or something. There's a picture of a bank note. Um, because his project was to make Iran fast forward into the 20th century in tandem with Zionist new state that is doing that at such a very, very fast rate. And he wanted to use, I mean, you know, the water technology that was being used in Iran was that infrastructure was made by the Israelis. And there is a town, uh, somewhere in <inaudible>, I don't know where, but northeast, northwest of Iran where, uh, team of Israelis were working there. And they were so loved. Um, this is in that book, in a book. And I saw pictures, I don't know which book, maybe not that one. But, um, the locals actually went as far as trying to learn Hebrew so they can work with them.
Sandra Koukou (01:08:34):
And they were very well espoused. And, uh, and the Shah actually had the, um, Israeli secret police build Evin prison because when my father was in an interview after he went by HIAS helped him get through Pakistan and wound up in Rome where my sister was in Italy, where my sister was. They took him to Rome to meet with the Consul General to get a political asylum visa to the US where my, where everybody was settling eventually, the consul general was Tim Ringland's mother, Tim Ringland was in our school. And she asked my dad, we'll give you the visa no problem, but you have to give us the floor plan of Evin prison. <laugh>.
Henry Green (01:09:31):
Um, so I what I, what I'm, what I'm understanding is that, is that the one new one was Jewish, but on the other hand, as you say, it was understated. Here's a school in which 30% of the class was Jewish, but the contact with the other people who were Islamic Persians in the school were very limited. But the or non-existent practically.
Sandra Koukou (01:10:00):
Well, no, I used to go to my Muslim friends, we were friends at home, that.
Henry Green (01:10:03):
That one example. But, but it's really the contact with the foreigners that were much more, uh, regular, let's say or more common.
Sandra Koukou (01:10:14):
No, we were
Henry Green (01:10:15):
So they weren't, you didn't go to these homes either then?
Sandra Koukou (01:10:18):
No, no. We were just a very insular community. So it was, so it was insular. We were a little Baghdad in Tehran.
Henry Green (01:10:25):
In Tehran. Okay. What happened on the 73, 1973 when that war happened? Was there,
Sandra Koukou (01:10:32):
We were very concerned and we were stuck to the radio all the time, just as in '67,
Henry Green (01:10:40):
Was there a different response by the, uh, Persian Islamic community?
Sandra Koukou (01:10:47):
You know, the Shah was a good friend of Israel, but he, like I said, was holding the balance of power in the Middle East, and he was the only one who really knew, and the king in Morocco, who really knew, um, what it was to build bridges and, you know, win-win for everybody. So, you know, uh, did you talk about this an that got oil from the show during the war?
Henry Green (01:11:18):
I understand but I'm trying to just think in terms of 73. Okay? You and your friends, 10%, you're saying of 30% of your class is Jewish. Did, when you went to school, did you and your friends talk about this? The '73 war? You were all listening on the radio. I see. I mean, you, you were a little Babylonian.
Sandra Koukou (01:11:36):
I, I I don't really know because I was this artist. Uh,
Henry Green (01:11:42):
I mean, you were 17 years old, so you were conscious already of, you weren't in the States yet.
Sandra Koukou (01:11:48):
I guess people were would between themselves talk about it,
Henry Green (01:11:52):
But you don't really have recollection of it.
Sandra Koukou (01:11:56):
I'm sure that the, the friends on, on, you know, by the Coke stand, they would talk about it, you know, but, but you don't, but there was no real animosity. I don't see,
Henry Green (01:12:06):
But I'm trying to get a sense of, of here is this little community, the Babylonian community, and you're left. So you're saying, you know, we're kind of subgroup as it were. Okay. So all some view, I'm sure in terms of Iraqis have relatives already in Israel or something, and here's this horrible war going on, and, and you're listening to the radio giving broadcasts about it, right? So now you're going to school, you're 17 years old,
Sandra Koukou (01:12:34):
And we're all worried. Yes, we're
Henry Green (01:12:36):
All worried. And so I'm wondering if there's any recollection you have of just, you know, putting things in a locker or talking to your friends or, you know, after school or something. You know,
Sandra Koukou (01:12:47):
I don't recall that. You don't recall. But I am gonna reiterate, and this is a very under underestimated and overlooked thing, and I'm going to keep saying it. The Shah's Iran was inclusive. There weren't only the Iraqi Jewish minority or the Iranian Jewish minority. There were the Zoroastrians, there were the Armenians, there were god knows how many tribes, the <inaudible>, and everybody was part of this mosaic. And the, the, the Shah had, um, you know, he was the icon. He was Iran. Okay, you can, they called him the tyrant and all, but, you know, Saddam left Iraq, everything fell apart. <laugh> was that good <laugh>?
Henry Green (01:13:53):
Yeah. It, it's not, I'm not trying to make judgements, I'm trying to just understand.
Sandra Koukou (01:13:58):
Yeah, I I know that I'm talking to the broader Yeah,
Henry Green (01:14:01):
But I, I'm trying to understand sort of, here is a person who, uh, basically is living in paradise in, in Tehran, and, and it's the sixties and seventies. And so, and your father has this amazing, uh, plant. You're going to this great school. And I'm trying to just understand the Jewish part of what it is, because here was this incredible thriving community of a hundred thousand that now has, you know, less than 10,000. So, and, and you are sort of that last generation As it were. And so I'm trying to understand, um, you know, what was Pesach like? What was Shabbat? So it tells me, you know, here's a family that feels very Jewish, very proud of their heritage, but also is telling me how the experience was. And that's what I'm hearing. And that's why it's so important to collect these stories. And so I I um, did you go to a Jewish school at all? Did you go, did you have a bat mitzvah? Did you go to Bar Mitzvahs? Did you have a bat mitzvah?
Sandra Koukou (01:15:13):
I wanted to, and the joint distribution committee, they were doing projects like that. And it was the first time when I came of became 12. And, but my mom said, no, no, not, uh, girls don't do it. We don't do it for girls so I didn't have that opportunity, but I would've wanted to.
Henry Green (01:15:35):
Did your brother have a bar mitzvah?
Sandra Koukou (01:15:35):
He did. He had a beautiful bar mitzvah and we celebrated it at the top of the, at the mountains, you know, by the suburbs. There was this beautiful view over the city at night with all the lights, and there was, uh, a club there and very high end and beautiful, elegant, uh, 120 people I remember. And I invited my friend Vida, the Muslim girl, who I would go to her house. Um, we, we, I guess we just, uh, lived in, in a golden age where everybody felt like they were part of one bigger picture. The Armenians were good to the Jews. The Jews were good to the Armenians, the Zoroastrians were, everybody knew that we were all so lucky to live in peace, surrounded by, uh, all different colors and sizes, and that the Shah was our leader and there was peace, and we were going, going farther and farther ahead economically. Iran was, was manufacturing its own car, Pecan.
Henry Green (01:17:00):
So the, the, the, the, uh, go back to your brother's Bar mitzvah. Was it in the shul? Was it in the Iraqi shul? His bar mitzvah, the actual reading of the Torah?
Sandra Koukou (01:17:10):
Um, you know what, that's funny. I don't remember that part. I'm sure it did happen. But I do remember watching him put on his tefillin in our home, in our apartment at the.
Henry Green (01:17:24):
But you don't remember.
Sandra Koukou (01:17:26):
No, I don't actually. I don't.
Henry Green (01:17:28):
Do you remember?
Henry Green (01:17:29):
I remember the big party
Henry Green (01:17:31):
<laugh>. Do you remember, uh, if you said at Rosh Hashanah you would, did you go to the synagogue for Rosh Hashanah?
Sandra Koukou (01:17:37):
Yes, we did.
Henry Green (01:17:38):
And do you remember the rabbi?
Sandra Koukou (01:17:41):
Yes, <inaudible>. He's now in America.
Henry Green (01:17:45):
The men and women sitting separately.
Sandra Koukou (01:17:47):
Yes. And I do know that, I mean, recently I saw a picture of a synagogue in Iraq. It had turquoise blue walls, and it had these white globes for lights all in a row with black Hebrew lettering with names of donors all over. And that's exactly a photocopy of what my grandfather built our synagogue in Iran looked exactly like that.
Henry Green (01:18:19):
So, but the, the, the except for the Rosh Hashanah or Pace Passover, maybe you would go to synagogue.
Sandra Koukou (01:18:25):
Yes, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur
Henry Green (01:18:27):
Those would be the two times you go.
Sandra Koukou (01:18:28):
Yes, yes.
Henry Green (01:18:30):
And, uh, and that would have a good turnout, but the rest of the time, one doesn't, you don't really know because you, uh, didn't frequent. No. Um, I'm, what about, let me focus on Israel for a second. Yes. So did you learn anything about Israel? In, um,
Sandra Koukou (01:18:50):
Here, here in my dad's book is a, um, picture of an inscription on the wall with names of donors for the synagogue. My grandfather's name is on top with the biggest amount. And a lot of the names here are names like Rita Fatel. She's in our community here in Montreal. Her father's name is there, uh, Nunu. And there are many others. All of these names that are very familiar in our ears. Um, yeah.
Henry Green (01:19:24):
Ask you about Israel. Did you learn anything about Israel at school or did in your, how did you know anything about Israel?
Sandra Koukou (01:19:33):
Um, my father sent me and my sister to summer camp in Israel once when I was 10. And I got a beautiful experience there. Um, I guess,
Henry Green (01:19:49):
Could you read Hebrew?
Sandra Koukou (01:19:51):
You know, it's curious. I learned Hebrew when my kids here in Canada were in first grade,
Henry Green (01:19:59):
But not in, uh, Tehran. So, so you, you, you did a trip to Israel. Um, but your knowledge of Israel in terms of living in Tehran was very limited then?
Sandra Koukou (01:20:12):
Um, we were aware, uh, we were very proud of Israel. I'm just
Henry Green (01:20:19):
I'm just asking information.
Sandra Koukou (01:20:19):
And we were very aware that if Israel did not exist, we would still be in a precarious situation. And we knew that for a fact with every cell in our body.
Henry Green (01:20:33):
So tell me the story of your leaving. So your father gets outta jail then, and then, do you leave as a family or how do you leave?
Sandra Koukou (01:20:44):
Well, my father was still in prison when I was still working at a Belgian company. Um, they were building the copper industries in <inaudible>, in Kerman, in southeast of Iran that the Americans had left. It was the second industry after oil is copper. Um, and so the Europeans now took their place and, um, the, I was there because my friend Vida, her cousin wanted to give birth in France so her child would have a passport other than Iranian. So the other person she knew who could handle the languages was a fellow community school alumni. So I took her place. And then when, um, I met my ex-husband, he was a, uh, very high-end engineer who was always placed in the most difficult positions 'cause he could handle it all. And it was the war with Iraq at the time. So there were, um, uh, shipments of steel structures and all kinds of parts for the copper electrolysis plant they were building.
Sandra Koukou (01:22:18):
Our head office was in Tehran, which would not arrive in the factory in the site. So I remember when, and I had changed the whole filing system. It was no computers in those days. There were 300 files of all these shipments that came and due to the Iranian, uh, uh, sides, uh, bureaucracy, they were held at the storage in Bandar Abbas, which became Bandar Khomeini, the port of entry on the Persian Gulf. And they were just sitting and accumulating storage fees and nothing was moving. And because I was able to organize these files and say, each ship, each plane, each truck should have one file where the bill of lading, all the correspondence, the insurance document, everything would be together on that shipment packing list, everything I could easily find access and retrieve the correspondence for that part, which the workers needed at that time.
Sandra Koukou (01:23:27):
And, um, so I was doing this and he was, my ex was the insurance agent. So he's the one who, who who knew all the different parts to the whole project. And I admired him for that. And the fact that, um, he paid attention to me and it, he seemed like this Apollo that came out of the sky. And here I am, my father's in prison, I'm wearing a hijab. When the doorbell rings in our office, we run for our scarves. My mother is alone, uh, like this. I'm here. Thank God I came back because she wouldn't have anyone else to be with her. And I had an opportunity to leave by contraband, but I didn't because I didn't think my mom was ready yet. She was. And my dad wasn't out yet. So the, um, so I do recall that my father was telling my mom during our prison visits behind glass, that when I come out, they promised me that I could have a job in the government and I can earn a lot of money that way.
Sandra Koukou (01:24:44):
I can't go back to the factory, but they're giving me this. And I thought, oh my god, God doesn't give a Jew a second chance this time. They're gonna put him right back in prison. And all that I did to bring him out will be for naught. So here was God telling me, you have another story, another chance. So he was Christian. He was not of my faith. Me being this little Jewish girl who was so close to her community, her whole life just centered around the life of the community. That was my whole raison d'etre. And I was always a spiritual geek, you know? Um, and, uh, I found that okay, God is giving me a chance to live a normal life, to live with this man who is so knowledgeable and go and live in Europe, in Belgium and, and, uh, have the freedom to study and, and be a woman again. And so, as my sister said, you went from the frying pan into the fire <laugh> because
Henry Green (01:25:55):
So you married him and what year was this?
Sandra Koukou (01:25:56):
Sandra Koukou (01:26:57):
You have a son to marry. He said, no, I'm working. I'm making money. I can take it out somehow. This, that. And they, and he said, it be I had gone by then he said, it became so tough. He had sent my mom out. He was only one left. It became so hard. He said that one day I just fell to the ground and cried and decided I'm leaving. So he came out by contraband, but if I had not left, and my, my mom's cousin, Rachel Shamash, who's the daughter of the family that hosted them in India, she said he wouldn't have gone out. He would've held me like this to be quiet, not until he can make more money. And then by then they would've put him right back in prison. That was the plan. But he didn't see it. He still thinks everyone is an angel. So
Henry Green (01:27:48):
So your, so just your story though is that you then were in Belgium? Yes. Did you have children?
Sandra Koukou (01:27:55):
I had two. Um, I had my daughter who was born in Anderlecht in near Brussels.
Henry Green (01:28:02):
What year was that?
Sandra Koukou (01:28:04):
In 1984.
Henry Green (01:28:06):
And then you had a another child or,
Sandra Koukou (01:28:08):
Yes, and then my son was born in the States because at the time, um, my, I had nobody in, in Belgium from my family, and my ex said that, yeah, if it's a boy, then he, he, you want a circumcision and you don't have anyone here. So, uh, you can give birth in the states. So that's how my son was born in the States. What year was that in 1987.
Henry Green (01:28:42):
And you were between 1982 until how long did you stay in Belgium for?
Sandra Koukou (01:28:49):
For eight years. And one and a half years within those, that period was spent in Abu Dhabi, where he built three power stations.
Henry Green (01:28:59):
And did you live in Abu Dhabi too, at that, that time. And your daughter, I guess, was living
Sandra Koukou (01:29:03):
With you too then? Yes, she was a year and a half old.
Henry Green (01:29:09):
So in Belgium, uh, because you learned French, you were able to speak French in Belgium. So you had your schooling, provided you with the language.
Sandra Koukou (01:29:17):
That's right.
Henry Green (01:29:18):
And your husband, and you spoke in French?
Sandra Koukou (01:29:22):
Yes. Um, and, uh, he wanted me to teach him Persian, but I was too traumatized. I mean, he, he was another Khomeini, literally. Um, we have a friend in our community here, um, Emil Fatel. And uh, he was a lawyer who helped, um, me get my kids out of this, uh, situation and helped me find some financial security after, um, he said she was in a concentration camp, and usually we try to mediate and bring them together, but in this case, we didn't want to.
Henry Green (01:30:08):
So you, you, uh, you're, you're living in Belgium and you, and did your kids have any kind of Jewish, when, when did you leave Belgium again and what year?
Sandra Koukou (01:30:19):
That was in 1990. And it was, thank God, only when I came here that I could put them in a Jewish school and find out more.
Henry Green (01:30:28):
In 1990, when you came here, did you come with your husband?
Sandra Koukou (01:30:31):
Yes,
Henry Green (01:30:31):
To Montreal.
Sandra Koukou (01:30:32):
To Montreal.
Henry Green (01:30:34):
So why did he decide to come to Montreal then?
Sandra Koukou (01:30:36):
Because he always hated Belgium. He had a big mind. He was a genius, you know, a big mind. My son is like that. He has a big, but he has a smile. Not like his dad. But, but that's changed because my son with his just goes 1990. Yeah, he changed him,
Henry Green (01:30:57):
Come to Montreal, and
Sandra Koukou (01:30:58):
He wanted to leave because small minds, Belgium is like a very small, you know, he, he always was an expat. He worked in Iraq, he worked in Jordan, he worked in Iran. He always wanted to go out and, uh, he wanted to come to the States. But because you needed a green card, the best other option was, um, to, uh, come to Canada because we were bilingual. Um, and the fact that we were bilingual Canada, Canada wanted people like that.
Henry Green (01:31:34):
So you come to Montreal in 1990 and your children, your, your son had a circumcision in Belgium, or not
Sandra Koukou (01:31:43):
In the US.
Henry Green (01:31:43):
In the US right, sorry, the us And then you come here and, um, and then your kids begin to have a Jewish education here.
Sandra Koukou (01:31:53):
Yes, I was able to enroll them in Ecole Maimonide and then in Herzliah high school, and I found out more about my own faith. And then when my father started to write his book, I said, I will edit it. I will help you.
Henry Green (01:32:09):
So let me just ask you, uh, a few final questions then. Uh, because from 1990, you basically are living in Montreal then, right? So do you, how do you preserve your Sephardi heritage? How do you do that today?
Sandra Koukou (01:32:26):
I keep coming back to this <laugh>
Henry Green (01:32:28):
The book.
Sandra Koukou (01:32:30):
And I find that we talk about our, you know, how we were traumatized and we left this country, and we left that country and what they did to us, and, uh, what they're still doing to us. And, and yet, uh, we, and we enjoy our different cuisines, our different experiences. And thank God for your help in bringing all of us and our stories together. The real story is that we have one common denominator, and that is the Torah. That's what kept us alive. Whether we were Persians in a secular environment in Tehran, or we were in the Warsaw Ghetto, we were still part of one people who remained faithful to their one God. And we don't know the details of what that God wants of us until we put our noses in that book, like my dad did, but only because he was in prison. Why do we have to be in prison to find out about who we are? Why can we not in, uh, embrace it here with our, with our freedom, with a state of Israel, with freedom everywhere else? We do it at our peril.
Henry Green (01:34:14):
Do you consider yourself a refugee or a migrant?
Sandra Koukou (01:34:19):
I
Henry Green (01:34:20):
An immigrant or a refugee? Given your, your experience in
Sandra Koukou (01:34:24):
I'm an, I'm, I'm an immigrant, but I do consider myself <laugh>, humanly trafficked. I I was a basically a factory for children, for my ex-husband. I was a, that's,
Henry Green (01:34:41):
That's a,
Sandra Koukou (01:34:41):
That's it's a different story. But I came out on an airplane, not like my friend Lucy and other people through the, the border.
Henry Green (01:34:50):
Do you, uh, what do you consider your identity? How, if you say what's your identity, how would you define yourself?
Sandra Koukou (01:34:56):
I'm an Iraqi Jewish girl from Tehran.
Henry Green (01:35:02):
And your children, what languages do they speak?
Sandra Koukou (01:35:06):
They speak English and French.
Henry Green (01:35:09):
And, and, um, the last question is, um, what message do you want to give to people who are listening to this A very short message. What message do you want to give to them?
Sandra Koukou (01:35:21):
I wanna say that we have one common denominator, and that is the Torah. And that is what helped us, whether we read it or not, whether we, um, delved deeply into it or not. Uh, we were still aware that there was a written word, there is a written word, and it is our, um, rock and our salvation, and that it is at our peril that we don't, um, uh, stay close to our heritage. Everyone must do that. Whether you're a Christian or Jewish or Muslim. Um, listen to your parents respect what they gave you and stay close to your faith because in a world of, uh, chaos and, uh, they threw God out the window, what happens to communities then, whether they are Christian or Muslim or Jewish. Um, we need faith in, in this world. Don't throw it out the window, and you don't need to be in prison to find that out.
Henry Green (01:36:42):
So let me thank you, Sandra. It's fantastic story, and I so much appreciate that you took the time to share it with Sephardi Voices.
Sandra Koukou (01:36:51):
Thank you, professor Green.