Proofread by: Rebecca Lash
Transcribed by: Sonix
Interview date: 6/19/2018
Interviewer: Lisette Shashoua
Location: Montreal, Canada
Total time: 1:27:25
Salim Mashaal: Born in Kermanshah, Iran 1931. Left Baghdad in 1941. Arrived in Connecticut 1947. Arrived in Montreal 1951.
Transcript
Lisette Shashoua: [00:00:16] I'd like to start by asking you your full name and your place of birth and your full name at birth.
Salim Mashaal: [00:00:26] My name is Salim Mashaal. I was born in Kermanshah, Iran. My parents, they were Iraqis.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:00:42] And it's the same name you didn't change
Salim Mashaal: [00:00:45] No I didn't change name.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:00:47] And what year was that?
Salim Mashaal: [00:00:49] Pardon me?
Lisette Shashoua: [00:00:50] What year were you born?
Salim Mashaal: [00:00:52] 1931
Lisette Shashoua: [00:00:54] Thank you. We would like to thank you very much for participating in this project of Sephardi Voices. Now, can you tell me what you remember about your family background, your parents, grandparents, where you grew up?
Salim Mashaal: [00:01:13] We were we used to live in Iran in the winter we used to go to Baghdad because they didn't have no schools in Kermanshah and we had a house in Baghdad and we went to school in Baghdad. And when we finished school, we go back to Iran in the summer.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:01:39] And when you go to school in Baghdad, the whole family comes with you?
[00:01:42] Yeah, everybody, we used to have a house and we used to have a cook and chauffeur and everything. We used to go to the alliance school.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:01:57] Do you have any vivid memories of that house in Baghdad?
Lisette Shashoua: [00:02:01] Yeah, we used to live, uh, it used to be called the Sabqa [ph]. Yeah, it's like about six, seven houses in an island like. Do I remember that we used to have a park in front of us and we used to go by car to the school
Lisette Shashoua: [00:02:29] And did you have [inaudible] on the water?
Salim Mashaal: [00:02:31] No, no water, but it's called Sabqa because all around it are street. There were seven houses.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:02:41] Beautiful. Tell me about your house in Kermanshah.
Salim Mashaal: [00:02:44] In Kermanshah I don't remember the house. We used to have a big house in Kermanshah.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:02:50] And you also had a cook.
Salim Mashaal: [00:02:52] We have everything. Yeah.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:02:53] it's wonderful. OK, so you went to the Alliance in Baghdad,and it was for men only, boys.
Salim Mashaal: [00:03:04] No boys, uh, I don't know. It was only boys. The girls they were different school. Yeah. And we went to before the alliance, we went to Miss Aadil. [LS: Madame Aadil]. Madame Aadil.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:03:25] So that was [SM: before the Alliance] so the Elementary School [SM: Elementary, yeah] up to what class? [SM: I think up to the sixth grade] Wow. And then you go [SM: to the Alliance and the alliance]
Lisette Shashoua: [00:03:42] At the Alliance you studied French.
Salim Mashaal: [00:03:44] No, I never we never I never finished it, but I think I left on the ninth grade or the 10th.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:03:54] But you had to study French at the Alliance right?
Salim Mashaal: [00:03:58] No, we used to study Hebrew, French, Arabic and English.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:04:03] Yeah. And in Madame. [background communication]
Lisette Shashoua: [00:04:29] Uh, Madame Aadil did you also have to study French?
Salim Mashaal: [00:04:32] I don't remember any. Maybe French or and English, no Hebrew, [LS: Arabic for sure] Arabic no, I don't remember very little.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:04:45] Ok, and you can read and write Arabic?
Salim Mashaal: [00:04:48] I can read a little bit, but not fluently.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:04:51] What about Iranian?
Salim Mashaal: [00:04:52] Iranian no, mostly. I never studied Iran, although I learned it from the, uh, the working people they used to worked in our house or the chauffeur. But otherwise I never studied Iranian.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:05:15] Ok, do you remember your grandparents?
Salim Mashaal: [00:05:18] Yeah, I remember my mother grandparent, my father grandparent, I remember very little.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:05:31] What do you remember about them? What did you do with them?
Salim Mashaal: [00:05:35] I don't think I, we never be close, like I knew, but nothing very close. [LS: Did you live with them in the same house?] No, no. We lived a different house and we were both at the time outside of Baghdad.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:05:54] How about the how about the Pesach and the Rosh Hashanah, where did you spend it? With whom?
Salim Mashaal: [00:06:03] Mostly with the family, but we didn't. We're not very religious. I don't remember. I went with my father or anybody to a synagogue in Iran or Baghdad.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:06:17] But like the holiday itself
Salim Mashaal: [00:06:20] holiday yeah, we used to have it at home.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:06:24] With your grandparents too?
Salim Mashaal: [00:06:25] No, I don't remember really. I don't remember. Maybe they were not alive or alive.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:06:34] Do you know how your parents met each other? How did they get married? Do you have any memory?
Salim Mashaal: [00:06:40] No, no. I mean, I if I if I'm not mistaken, it might be family. But otherwise, I don't remember.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:06:51] And can you tell us your dad's name,
Salim Mashaal: [00:06:54] Menashe
Lisette Shashoua: [00:06:58] And he was born in.
Salim Mashaal: [00:07:01] Baghdad.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:07:02] OK. And what did you do?
Salim Mashaal: [00:07:05] He was a merchant. [LS: Merchant of] merchant, almost, they used to do every business where they can make profit [LS: like sugar, tea] mostly they were in the car business. Tire, lorries, at one time they were in diamond or other things. Anything which big profitable [LS: that was both in Baghdad and Iran] Baghdad and Iran [LS: the same work] Yeah, the same as Lebanon. They used to have offices.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:07:52] And your mother's name,
Salim Mashaal: [00:07:54] Semha.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:07:57] And she was born.
Salim Mashaal: [00:08:00] I think she was born in Iraq. Baghdad.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:08:04] And her your mother's maiden name.
Salim Mashaal: [00:08:07] Maiden Daniel.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:08:11] Do you know how old she was when she got married?
Salim Mashaal: [00:08:15] I'm not sure. I think maybe she was in the picture maybe around 18 or between 18 and 20.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:08:25] Would you have any idea what year it might have been? [SM: No]
Lisette Shashoua: [00:08:31] And your mom was a housewife, [SM: housewife] She didn't do [SM: no] And did she study at Alliance?
Salim Mashaal: [00:08:42] She studied? [LS: at Alliance?] Allia- I think so I'm not sure.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:08:49] Ok, tell me about your brothers and sisters. How many do you have?
Salim Mashaal: [00:08:56] we were were seven brothers and one sister
Lisette Shashoua: [00:09:01] And you all grew up,
Salim Mashaal: [00:09:05] We grew up between Baghdad and Iran.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:09:10] And how how can you tell me something about growing up with them, playing with them? Memories?
Salim Mashaal: [00:09:16] Yeah, I remember in Baghdad we used to.
Salim Mashaal: [00:09:22] Go and take swimming lesson to the river. And I used to take my younger brother Maurice at that time I think we were around 10 years old, we used to wake up. At four o'clock in the morning. You know, my parents they are still asleep and we used to go walk to the river where we go to school there for swimming. We used to cross the river and come back and come back home by six o'clock, [LS: six o'clock in the morning] morning yeah
Lisette Shashoua: [00:10:05] Did you go alone?
Salim Mashaal: [00:10:06] We went the two boys, my brother and myself, we were the only people walking the street. And my parents, they were asleep.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:10:18] So and you went alone without wearing the [inaudible]
Salim Mashaal: [00:10:23] Yeah, the carab [ph], you wear it, you cross the river, come back, and by 6:00 we come back to back to home.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:10:32] How many of [inaudible]
Salim Mashaal: [00:10:35] At the end we, without any carab [ph]. We, we cross the river [LS: and alone?] No, I'm with the teacher, [LS: ah, with the teacher]
Lisette Shashoua: [00:10:47] Do you remember the name of the guy?
Salim Mashaal: [00:10:50] The teacher, Sasson there was one I forgot the other guy's name.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:10:57] Hai [ph]? Hai? Was there one called Hai?
Salim Mashaal: [00:11:03] Hai no. I forgot his name.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:11:07] Now can you tell me the names of your family, the brothers, the oldest to the youngest?
Salim Mashaal: [00:11:16] My, my, older- Edward is the number one, myself if two, Maurice is three, Freddie is four, Albert is five, Victor is six, Suad is seven, and my youngest is Emile.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:11:44] Ok, and why didn't Edward come swimming with you?
Salim Mashaal: [00:11:48] Edward I don't know. I don't know. We were the only two people going.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:11:54] Ok, is there something that you remember from your earliest memories that you really, was very special to you of those memories, whether Baghdad, whether Kermanshah
Salim Mashaal: [00:12:10] You see, when we lived in Iran, we never thought that Muslim or Jews. Were we were brought up like, you know, we never talked about religious and nobody bothers us. So we were in Baghdad, we never will be scared from Muslim or this. If they hit us, we hit them back. Yeah. [LS: And they did hit you?] No if they hit us, they are. We beat them up.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:12:48] But did anybody try to hit you? [SM: Yeah] they did.
Salim Mashaal: [00:12:51] But they never after a while, nobody bothers us.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:12:56] And you hit people too? [SM: Yeah] Good for you.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:13:00] And your parents, what social circles did they go to clubs, did they who did they meet who were their friends know?
Salim Mashaal: [00:13:09] We had a lot of a lot of family, you know, we were very close, like my father he had three sisters and two brothers. So always the cousins we are together when we move to one country, everybody follows, [LS: oh, not only your immediate family] no everybody.[LS: how wonderful, and you live near each other?]
Salim Mashaal: [00:13:39] Not far.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:13:42] In the Samqa?
Salim Mashaal: [00:13:45] The Samqa but other people they have different houses
Lisette Shashoua: [00:13:51] Ok, tell me about your friends, Jewish, non Jewish. Do you have any memories about your friends?
Salim Mashaal: [00:13:58] Most of, most of them were Jewish.
Salim Mashaal: [00:14:02] Uh, very maybe in Iran, I had friend maybe Christian and mostly Jewish. That's all I remember. I remember my school like in my Alliance, Edward Shuker, [LS: oh!] He was in my class that's married to your sister. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Salim Mashaal: [00:14:33] The Dr. [inaudible] he was uh uh, Sherazi.
Salim Mashaal: [00:14:40] And Benjamin. He was uh, he lives in Israel. And I had another friend, Abraham Shakurchi [ph] and Saudai [ph]
Lisette Shashoua: [00:14:59] Yes, which Saudai? [SM: Eli] Yes, he paints, Eli paints now. He paints from memories of Baghdad. [SM: Ok yeah] Did you know that? He paints. [overlap] Yeah. He paints the when they are taking a bath, in Baghdad [overlap]
Salim Mashaal: [00:15:24] Oh, yeah. He used to be a good friend Saudai.[LS: he paints a lot. There'a a lot of paintings] Is it [inaudible] in the internet? [LS: Yes. Yes, I will try to send you] under Eli Saudai? [LS: Under Eli Saudai, he has a website and he has paintings about people on the road (overlap) yeah]
Lisette Shashoua: [00:15:50] So did you meet them, like did you-
Salim Mashaal: [00:15:53] No, after I left Baghdad when uh very little, the only one I met, I met Edward when he came,uh when I met, uh, Benjamin. And uh, Abraham Shakarchi [ph] I never met him again, Eli I didn't meet.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:16:18] Abraham Shkarchi is he the father of Jack Shakarchi?
Salim Mashaal: [00:16:22] I don't know, they used to work in the metal business or construction and I'm not sure.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:16:32] So tell me, these friends, you used to meet them, they come to your house, you go to their house?
Salim Mashaal: [00:16:39] Yeah, we used to be very close. We used to go and ride horses. Together.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:16:46] Wow, what else did you do with your friends in Baghdad and Baghdad?
Salim Mashaal: [00:16:51] Baghdad I used to uh, I used to what they call fly birds or pigeons. Yeah, [LS: you had in your house?] Pigeon in menoras [ph] on top of the on top. [LS:Oh. How many did you have do you know?] I don't know. I had a lot. We used to take the pigeon, take them, go by bus and leave them and they come back with two three pigeon.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:17:22] Oh, they bring new ones with them?
Salim Mashaal: [00:17:25] Yeah.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:17:27] So what were you fed them every day?
Salim Mashaal: [00:17:30] Yeah, we I don't remember maybe we fed them, I don't know remember, but the cage was open. They could go and come back.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:17:40] And they made babies.
Salim Mashaal: [00:17:41] Yeah.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:17:44] Ok, what happened when you, how old were you when you left Iraq for good?
Salim Mashaal: [00:17:50] We left in nineteen. The last time we were in Baghdad, 1941. And that the day we left Baghdad, we had the. My father partner his name was [inaudible] Koobi [ph]. He used to be very influential with the Muslim. He had a house in Khanaqin, on the border. [LS: Yes] And we left, he let us we went through him. We didn't have to show passport. We crossed the border. And at the same time, there was the prime minister, Nuri Said and the mufti. [LS: Yes] And we were at the border and suddenly we see took three cars came and they didn't stop. And they cross the border and after that we met them, we stayed in a hotel in Kermanshah and they were there, [LS: the Mufti and Said?] Mufti and Said yeah.
Salim Mashaal: [00:19:02] Forty one, yeah, 41 [LS: before the Farhud or after?] After the Farhud [LS: so you were there during the Farhud] Yeah. [LS: What do you remember? Do you remember anything]
Salim Mashaal: [00:19:13] I don't remember. I don't I used to I used to be the Boy Scout. And they used to send me to go out and buy things for them, the house. I never worried [LS: the Boy Scouts in Baghdad, the Boy Scout in Baghdad or in Iran?] No in Baghdad. [LS: There were Boy Scouts then? (overlap) They were Boy Scouts?]
Salim Mashaal: [00:19:38] Yeah, [overlap] In Iraq, [LS: we didn't have] Kishiyafah [ph] [overlap] [LS: And the Boy Scouts belong to the country] Yeah. [LS: It wasn't a Jewish Boy Scout] No, No
Lisette Shashoua: [00:19:51] it was uh government [inaudible] And how many Jews belong to the boy scouts?
Salim Mashaal: [00:19:59] I don't remember. But I remember we used to, uh, the, uh, the plane used to come in and bomb or, uh, shoot the the Army camp, and we used to go up on the roof and take a look at the planes shooting [LS: the British planes?]
Salim Mashaal: [00:20:22] Yeah, [LS: shooting the army camps?]
Salim Mashaal: [00:20:26] Yeah, the army camps, And on top of our house, there were shells, big shells, and we were not worried that we are looking at that.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:20:38] And your parents weren't worried? [SM: no, they didn't say nothing] Wow. So tell me the language you spoke to each other. [SM: We spoke Arabic] even in Iran
Salim Mashaal: [00:20:54] In Iran, yeah. everybody, you see, we used to have a cook, she came from she's from Iraq, most our housekeeper. There were one or two Iraqi, so. [LS: Oh, so it was Arabic] So we can Arabic, but we had Persian also.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:21:14] And the housekeepers and the cooks were Jewish?
Salim Mashaal: [00:21:20] The cook was Jewish. And one of the housekeeper were Jewish. They were from Mosul, northern Iraq.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:21:29] And they stayed with you in Iran? [SM: Yeah in in Iran and also in Baghdad] when you moved to Iran for good they came with you?
Salim Mashaal: [00:21:37] Yeah
Lisette Shashoua: [00:21:39] And they went across the border with you? [SM: Yeah]
Salim Mashaal: [00:21:43] [overlap] I don't remember if they came, but we were two cars at that time when we left Baghdad [LS: and you just went across the border]
Salim Mashaal: [00:21:52] Yeah, yeah.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:22:02] Ok, were there any clubs you belong to, whether in Baghdad
Salim Mashaal: [00:22:07] Club? I don't remember [LS: Zawra, maybe] maybe Zawra I, I used to we used to go and eat there. I don't know we were member or not member.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:22:20] What about in Iran? The Imperial Club the-
Salim Mashaal: [00:22:23] No
Lisette Shashoua: [00:22:28] Is there any favorite expression you have in Arabic and English of the family used in Baghdad? Any favorite saying? Any favorite?
Salim Mashaal: [00:22:39] Not I don't remember much about. We don't have. Others remember. I don't think we had any special saying or that.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:22:54] Now, in Iran, you spent more time when you were growing up, more time in Baghdad because you were going to school.
Salim Mashaal: [00:23:01] No, but Baghdad the winter [LS: in winter] And after the school finish, we go back to Iran [LS: about three months] Three, four months yeah
Lisette Shashoua: [00:23:15] Yeah, um, but now your area in Iran, Kermanshah. Was it a lot of Jews around you?
Salim Mashaal: [00:23:23] No, they were maybe I don't know but there were about, uh, five or six Iraqi family. They were they were oh, yeah, they were the Shahrabani. They were the Dallal [LS: which Dallal?]
Salim Mashaal: [00:23:43] Youssif Dallal. And they had uh, Lulu [ph]. Jack Lulu's parents
Lisette Shashoua: [00:23:49] Salim Lulu?
Salim Mashaal: [00:23:53] Salim Luli? No, no. Jack Lulu. His father, I don't know, Baruch? Not Baruck? Salim Lulu is the other. He used to live in Baghdad.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:24:07] Yes. Yes, [SM: The Bahai (ph)] No, no, the father of [inaudible name]
Salim Mashaal: [00:24:09] The father of [inaudible name], Lulu, yeah Jacques Lulu, I don't remember, but they used to live in Tehran- in Kermanshah. Yeah.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:24:26] So Jews lived in Kermanshah more than in Tehran at the time?
Salim Mashaal: [00:24:32] That time, the the center of business was Kermanshah, not Tehran because of BP oil. And after it it became Kermanshah became secondary, Tehran became the number one
Lisette Shashoua: [00:24:52] Was Kermanshah on a hill? Up a hill. Was it up a hill?
Salim Mashaal: [00:24:54] No, the Kermanshah was between Tehran and Baghdad.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:25:02] And where is Queen Esther buried? Is it Kermanshah or Hamadan?
Salim Mashaal: [00:25:06] Esther? I think more Hamadan, if I'm not mistaken. Hamadan is between Kermanshah and Tehran.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:25:25] Ok, can you remember the food? Can you tell me about the food you ate in Baghdad or in Iran?
Salim Mashaal: [00:25:31] The food mostly we at home we used to eat Iraqi food. Outside Persian maybe mostly grilled meat or chicken. And that's all. Kebab yeah, but at home, it's all Iraqi food.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:25:53] In both countries, [SM: in both countries] and you ate outside at restaurants?
Salim Mashaal: [00:25:57] We ate at restaurant, but not very often [LS: in Baghdad also?] In Baghdad I don't know. I don't remember. We went to a restaurant in Baghdad. Maybe we to used to go to the club to eat. Otherwise, mostly at home. Kerma- the same, Tehran we ate more outside, to restaurants. [LS: Did you go to Lebanon when you were young?] Yeah, we used to have an office there in Lebanon.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:26:27] How old were you when you first went to Lebanon?
[00:26:32] 19- I was the first time I went there around 16 years old, we went for the summer.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:26:43] For the whole summer, and you ate at restaurants there,
Salim Mashaal: [00:26:46] No, like in Lebanon, we rented a house and we stayed the whole summer.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:26:53] And you brought your cook with you?
Lisette Shashoua: [00:26:56] Yeah, we had a house [inaudible] and we used to have an office, so it's run by Yacoub Shaoul. You know, Joyce Meir father?
Lisette Shashoua: [00:27:09] Yes. Yeah. And you used to eat in restaurants like Zahli and all those places?
Salim Mashaal: [00:27:20] Few, you know, mostly at home more. We used to have at home, we had a cook all the time.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:27:28] Tell me the clothes,were modern, were European clothes all along or your grandparents wore a fez or?
Salim Mashaal: [00:27:36] No, no, no. They were wearing regular clothing, maybe my grandmother used to wear on the holiday face and [LS: the izar].The izar yeah.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:27:49] do you have any with you?
Salim Mashaal: [00:27:54] No, I don't I don't know if my daughter have, but I have the abaye [ph] the one the camel hair.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:28:05] Oh, the one with camel hair. The abaya, and it has embroidery on it?
Salim Mashaal: [00:28:06] It has a little bit, not much, but it was both. I got it from Iran, not from Iraq.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:28:18] And the camel hair is like a beige [SM: beige color yeah] That's beautiful. You know, maybe you can take a picture of it or send a picture of that. That's very interesting. Yeah, of course.
Salim Mashaal: [00:28:31] It's very good. It's cool. In the summer, warm in the winter.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:28:36] But you are talking about the abaya for you or for a woman.
Salim Mashaal: [00:28:39] No, for me. For for men.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:28:42] Oh how nice. Yeah. That's worth taking pictures of. And if you have an izar-
Salim Mashaal: [00:28:48] izar I don't remember.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:28:53] uh, what about the [inaudible] sidara? Did they wear it-
Salim Mashaal: [00:29:00] Sidara no. We used to, when we went to Lebanon, everybody bought a fez.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:29:08] Yeah, the red one. [SM: Yeah]
Lisette Shashoua: [00:29:12] Can you tell me if you had the special preparations for Shabbat or Friday night?
Salim Mashaal: [00:29:18] No, I don't remember where the Shabbat prayer.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:29:25] No, but what about the food like the tbeet?
Salim Mashaal: [00:29:26] The food yeah, they make the tbeet. They make it on- [overlap] No you see, they make the tbeet on Friday during lunch in a big copper pot. They cover it, they put the the eggs on top of it and they cover it with a blanket. They cover it overnight, so in the morning, we eat the egg and the lunch with the tbeet. [LS: Sounds delicious] Tbeet and pacha [ph]. [LS: Pacha is made of what?], uh, the, uh, uh, the intestine and the stomach of, uh, of lamb
Lisette Shashoua: [00:30:25] And you don't remember going to synagogues anywhere, you don't remember any synagogue?
Salim Mashaal: [00:30:31] The synagogue very little.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:30:32] Do you remember any names of synagogues?
Salim Mashaal: [00:30:35] No, I, I remember the Alliance they had a synagogue downstairs, but I don't remember.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:30:46] Tell me, did you have a bar mitzvah?
Salim Mashaal: [00:30:49] No. maybe maybe they took me on a Thursday and I did a bar mitzvah.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:30:59] How about your brothers? Any of them? You remember?
Salim Mashaal: [00:31:01] I don't remember.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:31:05] Any special traditions that were kept in the family other than the food here now that you have immigrated, any traditions from before?
Salim Mashaal: [00:31:16] Nothing. [LS: The food] the food?
Lisette Shashoua: [00:31:19] Yeah, [inaudible] the food
Salim Mashaal: [00:31:22] Food we still eat Iraqi till, but now, you know, my late wife used to know how to cook the Iraqi food.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:31:34] It's the best food. [SML Yeah] Do you remember how you celebrated Passover or Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur?
Salim Mashaal: [00:31:47] Like, we used to play uh, card in the jelah [ph], and the other one, you know, Passover, we're still going to go from house to house to greet people. But otherwise. We're not very religious.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:32:12] Yeah, but a tradition. Yeah, not religious but traditional.And Passover you went from house to house or all the holidays?
Salim Mashaal: [00:32:21] no, mostly I think Passover.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:32:27] Do you remember going to a Brit Milah in Baghdad?
Salim Mashaal: [00:32:33] Milah? Maybe I'm not [inaudible], I don't remember much.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:32:37] All your younger brothers, you don't remember the [inaudible]
Lisette Shashoua: [00:32:39] OK, you remember going to weddings?
Salim Mashaal: [00:32:50] Wedding maybe,maybe one. But I don't remember the wedding, you know.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:32:55] Ok, what about eid aziyara [ph]? What about going to the Azair [ph] or the [inaudible]? [SM: No] you didn't. [SM: We didn't] You didn't go see Esther or Mordechai [SM: no, no]
Lisette Shashoua: [00:33:09] Any Jewish location you remember in Baghdad other than the Alliance and the Nadi Zarwa, you remember anything else?
Salim Mashaal: [00:33:17] I remember the, the souk you know, when we used to walk to the Alliance.[overlap] Yeah,and we used to have [overlap] Shorja [ph] is different, but I used to remember our offices on Sharia Rashid. Our offices were there.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:33:44] Do you remember what kind of a building?
Salim Mashaal: [00:33:48] They had a building on both side, one story building or two story. That's all [LS: they called it (inaudible)] The Khan [ph] is different. The Khan, I remember we used to, we used to have a friend who used to sell carpet, and he used to have, uh, a store in the Khan. And we used to go there and they used to order for us some kibbeh with uh um, what they call it, burghul. And other things, but otherwise the Khan was more like inside, it's like a house, and it has a few places [LS: and each one has an office or is there different offices?]
Salim Mashaal: [00:34:45] Yeah.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:34:46] And the friend you had who had Persian carpets was he Jewish or not?
Salim Mashaal: [00:34:52] Yeah he was Jewish. [LS: do you remember who?] Abed Mansour.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:34:55] Wow, he was the father of the, uh. No, [SM: no, he was a friend] OK. OK.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:35:10] Any prominent Jewish, uh, rabbis or anything in your family?
Salim Mashaal: [00:35:16] No, I don't think.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:35:20] Um, your office, the office you went to was in a building, a normal building.
Salim Mashaal: [00:35:24] It's a building, they have the front office, it has like a showroom, but it has and my father offices was in the back. And they have a Muslim who had the office, they called him, if anybody comes from the government or they can't, they told them to go to see the other guy, the other guy who used to be a member of parliament or this
Lisette Shashoua: [00:35:57] And he was a partner with your dad?
Salim Mashaal: [00:35:59] No, he was only they gave him. No, it's like a partner. But really, he didn't do any work mostly for the name and they have if the Muslim, if the government comes in, they don't want to talk to, they send it to him
Lisette Shashoua: [00:36:17] Excellent. And the same thing in Iran?
Salim Mashaal: [00:36:18] The same thing in Iran. [overlap] Offices in the back [overlap] and the good offices are the front where they have the Muslim.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:36:31] Oh, they also had a Muslim. And in Lebanon also?
Salim Mashaal: [00:36:35] No Lebanon I don't remember, we had Yacoub Shaoul. I don't remember. But in Iran and Baghdad, they used to have both of them they were a member of parliament. They were influential.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:36:50] Amazing [inaudible]
Lisette Shashoua: [00:37:01] Do you remember any Zionist organizations while you were there?
Salim Mashaal: [00:37:07] No, I don't remember any. I never been. But some of my later on, some of them, there were maybe they used to help or this, but otherwise I didn't have any people in touch or this in the organization.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:37:32] And your family, what was what was their views on Zionism?
Salim Mashaal: [00:37:40] I don't think we knew too much about Zionism, [LS: what about Israel?]
Salim Mashaal: [00:37:47] No. No, maybe, but when they became independent, but uh, we never got involved in politic or anything.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:38:05] Um, and when and when Israel was born, created did you go visit because you were living in Iran
Salim Mashaal: [00:38:12] No, no, no, I already left. When I left, I was in the state when Israel became a country.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:38:23] What year did you leave Iran?
Salim Mashaal: [00:38:25] I think 47 or something like this.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:38:29] and you never went back?
Salim Mashaal: [00:38:30] No, only for visit.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:38:32] Your parents were still living there.
Salim Mashaal: [00:38:34] Yeah. Everybody left 1951. [LS: you're, all your parents left and they came to Canad or the states?] They came we had the house in the state, but we came, they came here. We couldn't get any immigration to stay in the state, so we moved here.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:38:56] Ok, now you left. You were the first to leave. Or you and Edward?
Salim Mashaal: [00:39:02] No Edward left one year before me.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:39:06] He left one year before you so he left in forty six.
Salim Mashaal: [00:39:09] Yeah he went to school. [LS: Yes. OK, and he went where did he go to school?] We went to Milford Academy in Connecticut. [LS: Oh, wowo] it's a prep school. [LS: You both went you and Edward and then the-] ah no, Edward had left the school, I came after I was there. [LS: And what about Maurice and] Maurice they came after. They went to a different school. [LS: So you were the first] from my school, they were Maurice Shahrabani and Edward they were there. I was there. And there was one Iraqi, Jack Aini. He was in my school. [LS: that was in New York?] No in Milford, Connecticut. [LS: Oh, it was in Connecticut] The one he [inaudible], they never found him
Lisette Shashoua: [00:40:19] Now, when you left Iran. You left in nineteen fifty seven, you went every year back in summer?
Salim Mashaal: [00:40:27] No, no, I didn't go back. [LS: How often did you go like when was the first tiem you went back?] Maybe from when I left we went twice, nineteen fifty eight and nineteen seventy two.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:40:40] 72 you were [SM: Before the revolution] yes, so your parents were already in Canada [SM: no my parents they were here]
Lisette Shashoua: [00:40:49] They left in fifty one. They went to New York.
Salim Mashaal: [00:40:53] No, we used- you know, my mother, we bought a house in New Rochelle, New York, which is outside the New York, and we used to go live there. My father was still in Iran. Because we were going to school, we bought a house in New Rochelle.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:41:16] that was what year
Salim Mashaal: [00:41:19] We bought it in nineteen forty nine and we sold it nineteen fifty three fifty four.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:41:28] Because you moved to Canada. [SM: Yeah] OK and when you move to Canada, the whole family moved with your dad?
Salim Mashaal: [00:41:35] Yeah. We moved, we moved here but my brother, they were in school in the state.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:41:43] And when you say your family left in fifty one, your mother left with your dad?
Salim Mashaal: [00:41:49] My mother left before fifty one. My father left in fifty one.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:41:54] That's [inaudible] So you went you went in the states you couldn't get papers.
Salim Mashaal: [00:42:01] No, we we everybody went to study there.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:42:04] Yeah. And your parents couldn't get papers
Salim Mashaal: [00:42:06] And after they couldn't get they came to Canada.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:42:09] They came to Canada. OK, now. When you were back there first, let's say, Baghdad and Iran, did you go to weddings of non Jews?
Salim Mashaal: [00:42:25] No, we we had very little Muslim, uh, friend.
Salim Mashaal: [00:42:32] But I don't remember really we went to maybe wedding, but I don't remember. You see, we never been in all our life we lived in Iran. We never thought of we are Jewish or Muslim.
Salim Mashaal: [00:42:52] We never had that problem, which is Iraqis usually they always think they were prosecuted, but we never thought of that. We were prosecuted.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:43:10] And did you have neighbors that were non Jews?
Salim Mashaal: [00:43:13] Yeah, we had mostly Jewish neighbor. [LS: In both places] No, Iran I don't remember. I don't think so because we were very few families in Iran.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:43:30] What other memories would you like to share about growing up, about moving coming to the states?
Salim Mashaal: [00:43:38] You see, I have like I find the Iraqis. Myself, they think too much about what how bad they were treated in Iran- in Iraq. Myself, I don't feel any bad thing you know, and people really, all this memory, they have the bad time, it should be like spilled milk, you shouldn't think of it, you should turn the page and go on your life. To live your life, and you are much happier and you start a new life. But some people, they pity themselves because they were Jewish, Iraqi, all this, you know. You forget. Spilled milk you add [money] it's gone. Think of new thing. Not old.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:44:42] Very, very true, very true.
Salim Mashaal: [00:44:44] I find them, all of them they complain we were being prosecuted, being hit. No, I don't feel that at all. And what is going to help? [LS: yeah]
Salim Mashaal: [00:45:00] Nothing
Salim Mashaal: [00:45:02] They pity themselves.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:45:05] Give me some nice memories of whether it's at school when you continued in the states or anything fun that you remember that you cherish from your memories. What you remember that you really think was so special
Salim Mashaal: [00:45:29] In Baghdad, We used to go to Miss Aadil since secondary school. We used to have a park in front of us, and when you go to the park, the guy who takes care of it he used to chase us out, you know. So one day we left Miss Aadil to go for lunch. The guy who take care of the park he was asleep. I was walking my brother, Freddie. We used to, in Baghdad, it becomes so hot, the, the asphalt it used to melt. And they had a wood, it's called tapoos [ph]. You know, he made one and he was carrying and I was walking ahead of him. [LS: a wood called tapoos or?] Yeah, it's a piece of wood. And they take the asphalt and they put it on top of it so it becomes brown and stick to the wood. So so I was walking ahead and Freddie, my brother was behind me and suddenly I hear somebody shouting. It seemed that the guy was asleep, he came and hit him with the tapoos on his head [laughs], so we took the guy walk up. He was looking, but we ran because he was bloodied all over. He couldn't see us.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:47:13] Wow [laughs] OK, if you can just tell me, how did your family leave Iran, with a passport?
Salim Mashaal: [00:47:23] Ok no, we left with a passport in,
Salim Mashaal: [00:47:29] My father at that time, when the, uh the war was finished,they had the American. They sold the camp. Everything in the camp, in the army camp, they sold it and they were [overlap] in Iran and the same thing in Baghdad, the the British.So when they bought it at that time, in Iraq Shafiq Ades was the guy who bought the camp. And they blamed him to selling the arm to Israel.
Salim Mashaal: [00:48:20] And at that time they had. You know Shafiq Ades? You know the story?
Lisette Shashoua: [00:48:29] Yeah, yeah, I did not know exactly what excuse they use,
Salim Mashaal: [00:48:33] They use the he sold the arm from the camp to the Israeli government.
Salim Mashaal: [00:48:41] Because of the arm, at the same time in nineteen fifty, they started writing on my father also that the arms from the camp were sold, sold to Israel. So at that time in nineteen fifty, fifty, September, he left Iran and he never went back.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:49:05] So did he have a chance to sell his property or his work [overlap]
Salim Mashaal: [00:49:11] No, no. We didn't lose in Iran we didn't. We, we left but in Baghdad we lost almost all our properties. We never nobody came back. And [inaudible] what is left it is gone.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:49:27] And Lebanon?
Salim Mashaal: [00:49:29] Lebanon we I think they closed we didn't have as much investment in Iran or like Iran or Iraq.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:49:39] Now do you know Shafiq Ades what did he do with the arms?
Salim Mashaal: [00:49:41] with the arm, they blamed him that he sold it to Israel.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:49:48] I know, but what did he do really, for reality? What did he do?
Salim Mashaal: [00:49:53] Nobody knows. I think they were armed, you see, because when they bought the camp, they sold them everything in the camp, trucks, arm, food, everything. [LS: Yeah, I see] And the same thing he did it the same day the British sold it to him [LS: and Wasi the Regent was his partner?] No before he was [inaudible]
Lisette Shashoua: [00:50:18] Oh, the regent wasn't his partner?
Salim Mashaal: [00:50:21] regent before he used to be influential. [overlap] but they didn't help him.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:50:29] Yeah It didn't help him, but wasn't he his partner in buying the camp?
Salim Mashaal: [00:50:34] Who, [LS: the regent (inaudible)] I don't know, maybe, but everybody they left him on his own because I heard. When they caught him, they caught somebody else, they had to pay five thousand dinars to get him [out] or run away. He wouldn't he said, I have my friend the regent and other. But when it came to the right thing, everybody abandoned him.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:51:12] So your parents were prepared to leave? It happened suddenly because of what happened to Shafiq. Did they prepare to immigrate?
Salim Mashaal: [00:51:18] No they, not I think everybody left all the he was alone and then we knew we are going to leave. So when they started writing about him in the paper, he left and never went back.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:51:37] He left with just a suitcase. He left everything behind.
Salim Mashaal: [00:51:42] No, we had the officers at this. But [overlap] no, no, they still have partner. But the end we got nothing.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:51:54] And so you arrived here in fifty seven to the states, and how old were you then when you arrived to the states?
Salim Mashaal: [00:52:03] sixteen seventeen. [background communication]
Salim Mashaal: [00:52:11] Iraq? Nineteen forty one. [background communication]. After the Farhud we left.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:52:20] Yeah. You left through Khanaqin, not Damascus.
Salim Mashaal: [00:52:23] Through Khanaqin we went to Iran from there.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:52:28] And when you left Iran how did you leave?
Salim Mashaal: [00:52:31] Iran I went through Lebanon. I came by [overlap] to Damascus and from Damascus to New York to Gander and New York.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:52:44] You got a plane to Damascus?
Salim Mashaal: [00:52:47] Yeah. I have to wait for another plane for a week. Yeah. I stayed with, uh, uh, what they call it Shaoul.
Salim Mashaal: [00:52:58] Yahuda. Stayed in their house [LS: Shaoul Yahuda was in Damascus or in Lebanon?] No, he was in Lebanon.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:53:06] Yeah. So you went to Damascus from-
Salim Mashaal: [00:53:09] They came and picked me up from Damascus to Beirut. And you stayed with him and took me back to Damascus to come to the state,
Lisette Shashoua: [00:53:19] How long is the-
Salim Mashaal: [00:53:25] I think Beirut to Damascus maybe three or four hours by car
Lisette Shashoua: [00:53:29] Ok, Salim please, if you can tell me you went to study and then and Edward went to study,[SM: yeah Edward first] Edward first. [SM: I came the second] You followed him to, uh, to the school. [SM: I used to live in the school] You lived in the school. What did you study?
Salim Mashaal: [00:53:50] What it was a prep school. And after I went to university.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:53:55] What did you study? [SM: Business] Business. And so did Edward.
Salim Mashaal: [00:54:00] Edward also.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:54:01] Ok, can you tell me about how your brothers came, who came first? Where did they go?
Salim Mashaal: [00:54:10] Like Edward came first, I came second.
Salim Mashaal: [00:54:14] Uh Maurice, Albert and Freddie, they left him in Paris [LS: for how long] for they stayed three or four years to go to school there. [LS: They studied in Paris] Yeah, some of them [LS: What did they study?] School you know, and they used to have the professor, Dr. Sabbah in the Alliance. So they when they went to, they left to take care of them in Paris on their own. [LS: Wow. And they studied French?] They studied the French. They went to school.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:55:04] But the fact that they were at Alliance, they already knew French
Salim Mashaal: [00:55:08] No, I don't know if they were they didn't go to the Alliance. They were not there. They were in in Iran at that time. [LS: OK, because you left in (overlap)] nineteen forty one. We left Baghdad completely. We never went back. [LS: So how did they study French in Paris?] No they studied French in uh in Iran. They went to a French school. [LS: Which one] St. Louis
Lisette Shashoua: [00:55:40] Ok, they went to a French school, they studied French, they studied in English
Salim Mashaal: [00:55:47] And after they took them to Paris [LS: and Hebrew as well?]
Salim Mashaal: [00:55:51] No, I went maybe one year, but I went to the American school. Yeah,[LS: you went to the community school] Yeah, [LS: but your brothers went to St. Louis] Yeah. [LS: Why? How come?]
Salim Mashaal: [00:56:04] I know it was hard to to get into the community school.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:56:10] Ok. OK, but you were there, your brothers or Albert and Freddie, [SM: they went to the French school] they went to the French school St. Lousie. OK, now you guys left and then they went to Paris to Mr. Sabbah [overlap] who was in the alliance in Baghdad, Mr. Sabbah was in Iraq. Europe. Yeah. And they moved he moved to Paris back. [LS: And he was Jewish Mr. Sabbah] Yeah. [LS: And they stayed with him]
Salim Mashaal: [00:56:37] Not with, they took an apartment on their own.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:56:42] On their own. The two boys. And Mr. Sabbah was watching over [SM: taking yeah over]
Lisette Shashoua: [00:56:49] Ok, so now that's the boys now afterwards. What about Maurice [SM: Maurice they came to the state] Maurice came to the state.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:56:58] Now, Victor?
Salim Mashaal: [00:57:00] Victor also when everybody moved, came to the state.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:57:04] Ok, now your mother went to the states in.
Salim Mashaal: [00:57:08] Went to the universities.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:57:10] Your mother, your mother,
Salim Mashaal: [00:57:11] My mother, she came because I myself and Edward we were in uh, studying in New York, she came, so we bought a house, so we used to come to the house on the weekend and after we lived in the house and I went to New York University, [LS: and your mother stayed the whole time in the house] in the house yeah for about two years maybe [LS: and she was cooking for you or she had people] No we had some help.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:57:44] Ok now, she didn't go back to Iran.
Salim Mashaal: [00:57:52] No no. Everybody. Nineteen fifty one, fifty. Everybody left
Lisette Shashoua: [00:57:58] Ok so she went back to [inaudible]
Salim Mashaal: [00:58:00] no she stayed in New York.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:58:02] And the three boys, you had the three youngest Sue, Victor and Emile
Salim Mashaal: [00:58:07] Yeah. Sue, they stayed with my uncle. Daniel. They stayed with them. [LS: And your dad brought them] And after they came out [LS: with your father] I don't know from my father or after, I'm not sure.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:58:25] Ok, and they came out with a passport. [SM: Yeah] From Iran to?
Salim Mashaal: [00:58:31] To they went to London and from London they came to the state.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:58:38] From London they came to the states. So two of them went through Paris. The others went through London.Your mother came.
Salim Mashaal: [00:58:45] We were three in New York. Two Paris. And the three three in Iran [overlap] And they came and everybody when they came who came to Canada they went to school in Canada.
Salim Mashaal: [00:59:00] [LS: where?] the youngest at I don't know, Outremont school. And and the other one [LS: Strathcona] Yeah.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:59:13] By then you have graduated from New York University.
Salim Mashaal: [00:59:19] Yeah, I think I graduated, but I never asked for my, uh, uh, certificate [laughs].
Lisette Shashoua: [00:59:29] What about what about Edward, your brother.
Salim Mashaal: [00:59:33] Also he graduated from the university. I think he went to a junior college, but they took him in the army, Edward, even in the state. Yeah, during the Korean War, even he was not an American.
Lisette Shashoua: [00:59:54] They took him in the army and he went to Korea?
Salim Mashaal: [00:59:57] No, they didn't send him. [LS but he was in the army for two years? Yeah. Two or three years. [LS: And how come you were saved?]
Salim Mashaal: [01:00:04] I came to Canada, but they took him against the law. He was not an American. And after they took him, and after they passed a law , anybody served in the army, they became become an American citizen.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:00:21] So he became American? [SM: No] No. Why not?
Salim Mashaal: [01:00:25] [inaudible] it's much tougher than Canada tax law and so on.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:00:37] Yeah, so he stayed Canadian.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:00:46] Ok, so now you came to Canada in fifty three [SM: fifty one] fifty one, you came to Canada. [SM: Yeah] OK, you came to Canada. Fifty one and fifty three you sold the house in New York.
Salim Mashaal: [01:00:59] In New York. We sold it. We bought the house completely furnish for thirty eight thousand dollars. It was a four story, it has two acre lot of Persian carpet and we sold it back. We took most the Persian carpet and the art of the house. We sold it at thirty eight thousand. We have to give a mortgage of fifteen to twenty five thousand, and they weren't those people they wouldn't pay and we had to sell the house in auction to get back our money.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:01:45] That's in the states- in New Rochelle. And were you able to get your money?
Salim Mashaal: [01:01:51] We got eventually our money.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:01:54] And the Persian carpet you took with you
Salim Mashaal: [01:01:55] We have it no. We took it out of the house before we sold it [overlap] here. Yeah.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:02:05] Oh that's good. Ok, so you came you immigrated here, you didn't get any help from anybody, you know, you just came, there was no refugees or etc..
Salim Mashaal: [01:02:17] No, no, we came on immigration.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:02:22] Ok, and you came here, uh. OK, what did you what was your first impressions about the states, about Canada, about immigrating?
Salim Mashaal: [01:02:39] Canada was like a small village. You know, we used to go to Ben's sandwich at the time was twenty five cent. If you want a driver's license, you go to the pharmacy to get your driver's license. And it was very cheap. Montreal.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:03:01] And how was winter, how did you manage winter?
Salim Mashaal: [01:03:04] Winter we got used to it, you know, you have to accept it. You know, you cannot fight and you think you can do nothing about it. So if you accept it, it's easier.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:03:20] And where did your family settle here
Salim Mashaal: [01:03:30] The first year we bought a house in Outremont, in front of the uh, city hall. And after that uh built a house in town of Mount Royal, [LS: was town of Mount Royal empty at the time?] at that time, it was not yet built mostly it's the Western part was built, but there is the part. It used to be a golf course. And so.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:04:00] So you built the house in the Western part? [SM: Yeah]
Lisette Shashoua: [01:04:05] And OK, so once they got here, what did your father do? How did he- [overlap]
Salim Mashaal: [01:04:09] At that time we used to import carpets from Iran, because we were in the carpet business.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:04:21] Oh, you were in the carpet business in Kermanshah?
Salim Mashaal: [01:04:23] Yeah. And in in New York.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:04:27] In New York already you were in the carpet business while you were studying [SM: Yeah] You already were working?
Salim Mashaal: [01:04:33] We used to have an office in New York.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:04:36] When did you open that office in New York?
Salim Mashaal: [01:04:38] It was opened I think, uh, nineteen forty three. Forty four and we used, we used to have a partner David Dallal
Lisette Shashoua: [01:04:55] So your dad opened an office in New York, and he had one in Lebanon, in Iran, [overlap] and Baghdad.
Salim Mashaal: [01:05:02] We already lost it.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:05:03] You already lost it. So you opened he came to the states himself to open it?
Salim Mashaal: [01:05:07] No, no. It was open before he came to the state.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:05:13] It was already open and he was a partner.
Salim Mashaal: [01:05:15] Yeah, we used to sell the carpet, we were too- we used to sell the the carpet cheaper than Iran.
Salim Mashaal: [01:05:25] Because at that time, if you export it carpet, you brought back the dollar, they give you a premium 30 or 40 percent. So they were making money from the exchange and they were selling the carpet cheaper than Iran.
Salim Mashaal: [01:05:44] [LS: Fantastic] And they used to sell the carpet, I remember each 50, you cannot select what you want, they used to [overlap] at one time. [LS: What size?] Nine by 12 or 10 by 14.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:06:05] So people who would buy it from you [SM: they are dealer] they are dealers.
Salim Mashaal: [01:06:09] Yeah. At that time I remember. The building we were on Fifth Avenue and Twenty Seventh Street at that time, they were selling the building for two hundred and fifty thousand dollar.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:06:29] And how much did you sell the 50 carpets together?
Salim Mashaal: [01:06:33] We were selling it cheaper than Iran [LS: but how much would 50 carpet] 50 carpet, maybe.
Salim Mashaal: [01:06:44] maybe ten, twelve thousand dollar [LS: for 50 carpets] yeah,
Lisette Shashoua: [01:06:49] And the building you were saying was where again?
Salim Mashaal: [01:06:53] On twenty seven and fifth.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:06:55] Twenty seven and fifty two hundred and fifty thousand. Did you own that building?
Salim Mashaal: [01:07:00] No. And [stutters] if we were old enough we would have bought it
Lisette Shashoua: [01:07:06] And your dad didn't want to buy it?
Salim Mashaal: [01:07:09] No. The partner didn't want to buy it
Salim Mashaal: [01:07:13] Our partner [LS: and the partner bought it?] Nobody bought it.. [LS: too bad. How much would it be worth now 50 million?] Now at least?
Salim Mashaal: [01:07:25] Maybe over 50 billion.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:07:27] Billion? [SM: Million] Million.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:07:30] [laughs] we're still talking millions
Lisette Shashoua: [01:07:35] Ok, so once you you finished, you graduated, you came to Canada right away and you started to work with your dad in what?
Salim Mashaal: [01:07:44] We used to have a store. We used to sell carpet [LS: here in Montreal as well? Also 50 at a time]
Salim Mashaal: [01:07:49] no retail. [overlap] mostly. wholesale and retail.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:07:54] So you and Edward [overlap]
Salim Mashaal: [01:07:56] No, Edward still in the state.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:07:59] He was still studying?
Salim Mashaal: [01:08:01] No, he was in the army.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:08:03] Oh right. Of course. And you came now with your dad, you were working with your father and your other siblings, what about Maurice and uh-
Salim Mashaal: [01:08:15] At that time, I think they started with us maybe Maurice and Fuad, I'm not sure. They used to help.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:08:34] Can you tell me how your professional development, how did you I mean, you started selling carpets, then what did you do?
Salim Mashaal: [01:08:48] Next, uh... after that, there was an architecht. His name was Naim Behor. You know him? Naim Behor
Lisette Shashoua: [01:08:57] Naim Barzain? [SM: No, Behor] Behor, no I don't know him
Salim Mashaal: [01:09:12] Behor is the brother of Kamal Behor. Their son, David and this [LS: yes yes yes]
Salim Mashaal: [01:09:15] [LS: Naim was his brother] His brother. He was an architect from Iraq. [LS: Oh, I didn't know] Uh he came in to speak to my father, he said there was there was some land in town of Mount Royal. So he convinced us that we'll buy the land and they will build houses on it. So I don't know. It was 20 or 25 plot. He started building 10 lots, 10 houses in the town. Naim, he was expert architect from Baghdad. So after one month of starting the building, he sold all the houses.
Salim Mashaal: [01:10:11] He sold all the houses and we were so happy that before finishing, he sold the house. When we delivered the house we make the calculation we were losing in each house. So we said at that time, we said, thank you very much. We are going to sell the land, the balance of the land. We sold, the balance of the land and we covered our losses. And after that, little by little, I remember we went to do real estate. [LS: And the houses that were sold was it sold to friends?] No, no it was sold uh people that were buying it.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:11:01] Ok, once you came here, what was your social circle? Did you go to the synagogue?
Salim Mashaal: [01:11:08] We used to no, no synagogue. We used to have friends, family. We used to go to the synagogue in Young Israel. And after that, I think they kicked us out from Young Israel [LS: why?] Because they were going the Iraqi they were taking their car on Saturday to go to the synagogue [laughs] So after that, I don't remember we never went ourself, but the Iraqis and after that they moved the Portuguese [LS: to the Spanish and Portuguese] Yeah.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:11:49] Your father did?
Salim Mashaal: [01:11:51] My father I don't know if he was. We became a member, but we never I don't remember I used to come.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:12:01] Did you face any problems settling here in Canada? [SM: No, problem?] Any problems settling like of you know,[SM: no, no] there were no problems at all it was, [overlap] you know, adjustment
Salim Mashaal: [01:12:14] No adjustment. because you have to accept what you have if you accept what you have, you will you don't have no problem. If you don't like this, if you don't like that, you cannot do nothing.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:12:33] Sounds wonderful, and the children grew up here.
Salim Mashaal: [01:12:37] Yeah, [LS: and they all went to what school?] Schools, [LS: which ones] they went to my children went to Town of Mount Royal High School. And after they went to university, two of them went to uh, Boston, and one of them in New York.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:13:04] And what did they study?
Salim Mashaal: [01:13:08] My older son, he studied business, I think my old oldest daughter, she studied art or thing, my youngest, she studied design.[LS: design in?]
Salim Mashaal: [01:13:28] Design in clothing, women's clothing [LS: beautiful is she working now?] Pardon? [LS: Is she working with it?] No, not anymore, before she worked
Lisette Shashoua: [01:13:38] What about your, what about Cathy?
Salim Mashaal: [01:13:42] Cathy she was Boston University also. She didn't, became a housewife, all of them housewife.
Salim Mashaal: [01:13:51] So you have three children we didn't mention [SM: no, one ch- one boy and three girls]
Lisette Shashoua: [01:13:55] Yeah and let's have their names, we didn't mention the children, their names we didn't mention the children
Salim Mashaal: [01:14:02] Oh, Ronnie, Cathy, Debbie and Lisa. [LS: And Lisa and what's Lisa studied?] Studied, she went to New York, design and [LS: Lisa studied design, what about Debbie?]
Salim Mashaal: [01:14:17] Debbie. She went to uh, I think, a college, but she never, uh, art or this.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:14:28] And we didn't mention your lovely wife, Doris.
Salim Mashaal: [01:14:32] Yeah. Yeah, she's my cousin. [LS: Oh, she's your cousin?] Yeah. Her mother was the sister of my father.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:14:43] Ok, and how many were they in their family?
Salim Mashaal: [01:14:47] Their family. There were uh, one.. A boy. And four sister.And the father got married another two two stepsister.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:15:06] So how did you, when did you decide to get married? When did you did you get married or was it arranged?
Salim Mashaal: [01:15:14] No, we was married in New York. [LS: you got married in New York?]
Salim Mashaal: [01:15:19] Yeah she used to live, uh, lived in Iran.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:15:21] She lived in Iran. So you went, she came to Iran, to the states
Salim Mashaal: [01:15:29] No, yeah, to the states to study. [LS: What was she studying?] Yeah, the regular, you know. [LS: So you met her,you fell in love?] No I knew her [overlap]. I knew her from Iran.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:15:41] You knew you were going to get married to her or how did you decide to get married?
Salim Mashaal: [01:15:46] I don't remember. I think it was arranged for this.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:15:52] Very nice arrangement [chuckles] OK, we're going to go now to the reflections where close to the end.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:16:04] What do you feel you preserved from your Iraqi heritage? What have you kept for you? For the family, the children? What did you preserve? Traditions, celebrations?
Salim Mashaal: [01:16:18] We preserve maybe the food, but now we are that we are at the end of the line on the food. [LS: Why?] Because I don't think the children, they know how to cook a little bit, but a lot of the food is being, the good food being forgotten because it's hard to cook it and not easy. [LS: It's complicated] And the food you have to have a special hand to have good food.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:16:58] That's true for your children the girls [SM: they like the food]. They like it but do they cook it?
Salim Mashaal: [01:17:02] They cook it but not everything. I cook myself also, but I cook what I so like in the kitchen and this. I remember [LS: what do you cook Salim?] I cook rice, I cook short rib, I cook pasta, okra, almost everything I cook, but the special ones
Lisette Shashoua: [01:17:32] Torshi? you make torshi?
Salim Mashaal: [01:17:35] Torshi I make no. I buy the torshi ready made, but I mix together. I mix it with amba, cucumber, garlic and other thing.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:18:02] And you cook for yourself alone, you cook for yourself?
Salim Mashaal: [01:18:05] No, not for myself. I cook when there is 20 or 30 people.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:18:10] You invite 20 or 30 people and you cook for them? [SM: Yeah, yeah] You have somebody helping you. [SM: Yeah] Good. You have help.
Salim Mashaal: [01:18:16] Yeah to wash the onion, cut the onion, mushroom.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:18:23] Yes we need that. We need that.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:18:26] And I'm sorry you lost Doris, what, three years ago now?
Salim Mashaal: [01:18:32] I think so. I'm I don't I don't really remember, but at least three years.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:18:38] And Doris was one of the best cooks in town.
Salim Mashaal: [01:18:42] She was quite good, you see, because, uh, to cook Iraqi food. The problem is there is 50 percent how it look. [LS: That's so true] and 50 percent how it tastes
Lisette Shashoua: [01:19:05] And what is the most important part of your Sephardi or Iraqi background to you? Is it also food?
Salim Mashaal: [01:19:17] The Iraqi, you know, like we lived with all our life, Iraqis. We were never Persian, you know, so. We liked everything, you know, you have a lot of friends, like we used to travel a lot of places, and I used to look at the telephone book and when I see Iraqi name, I call them and you go and see them. It's like, you know them all your life. Maybe you met them the first time. That's what a big advantage.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:19:58] Do you think that is continuing now with the new generation?
Salim Mashaal: [01:20:02] Not as much, because the more. The children, they are trying to become more Iraqi, but the time there is no way they can upkeep keep it.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:20:20] How do you see yourself, your identity? What I what is your identity? Are you Jewish? Canadian? What do you see yourself?
Salim Mashaal: [01:20:27] No. I don't. The religion maybe I feel that religion is secondary. I feel I am Iraqi. But the time is going by, you have to forget about what happened to them in the 40s and this because if you remember all they remember all the time, they pity themselves. A lot of Iraqi when they talk about Iraq, they say we are left over, they took- but you have to forget, you have to start a new page.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:21:06] So you consider yourself Iraqi, Canadian what?
Salim Mashaal: [01:21:11] No, I think they should be more Canadian than Iraqi because you have a new country and you cannot keep to live in a country where it doesn't become your first choice. [LS: Yes] So the Iraqis, I think they should forget Farhud or this and turn a new page and look forward.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:21:37] Do you see yourself as an Iraqi immigrant, a refugee?
Salim Mashaal: [01:21:43] No, I don't feel I don't feel I'm Jewish I'm not, I feel like I'm [a regular] like I lived all my life here. No problem. Jewish or not.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:21:55] And what where would you consider home?
Salim Mashaal: [01:21:58] I consider Canada home.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:22:02] And what is the identity you would like to pass to your children, to your grandchildren? What identity do you want them to feel most?
Salim Mashaal: [01:22:13] Like maybe the Iraqi, Jewish, Iraqi, but not as a Canadian first and after maybe Iraqi because the tradition. And uh, to, people who lived three thousand years and they come up to till now, they are still surviving.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:22:39] And the language you speak to the children, to the grandchildren.
Salim Mashaal: [01:22:42] No, I speak mostly English. [LS: do you speak some Arabic with them?] But before Arab- no we used to speak or like my wife when was alive we speak Arabic [LS: and the children understood] and they understand most of them
Lisette Shashoua: [01:22:59] Ok, what impact did this coming to Canada have on your life?
Salim Mashaal: [01:23:05] No, I I came in and I got in with the like I lived all my life here because I don't want to remember the bad days.
Salim Mashaal: [01:23:18] You know, as I say, when you have spilt milk, you cannot do anything about it. So you forget about it. I find people til now, they are in their 60s, 70s and they remember Baghdad, how bad was this? No, they shouldn't. Time go by
Lisette Shashoua: [01:23:46] There's a question here, which I don't think anyway, it says, do you think your life would have been different if you did not leave?
Salim Mashaal: [01:23:55] No, [LS: if you did not leave Iran?] It would have been the same thing [LS: if you did not leave Iran?] Iran? Yeah, I could survive there [LS: yeah, you think?] we had a good time in Iran [LS: but had you stayed now? to this day?].
Salim Mashaal: [01:24:10] I would I don't it would have been the same, you know, if we lived there, like, I was quite easy to live there. Nobody bothered me.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:24:23] What about the regime change? You would think you would still manage?
Salim Mashaal: [01:24:25] It doesn't, you see depend on the regime change if you are in politic, if you are not in politics, maybe different, but maybe you are Jewish, they, it make a difference.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:24:40] Last question. What message would you like to give to anyone who might hear this interview? [overlap]
Salim Mashaal: [01:24:49] The last message? I think people they should forget what happened to them in Iraq, in Iran, let them turn the page and live think about the future, not always go back 50, 60 years oh how prosecuted we are, how this thing and there would never get nowhere. They should look at the future from the future they should be try their best.
Salim Mashaal: [01:25:23] And the best thing we came to Quebec. Quebec, what people lived in Quebec, they gave them the best chance, the best chance they gave people in Quebec to go on your own, not to be employed. This is one thing, a blessing that they forced people like us to go on their own, not to go and get a job or work seven, five days a week and to stay on salary. When they force you, you take the chance. And that's the time to take the chance. And you will be prosperous.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:26:07] When you don't have anything to lose.
Salim Mashaal: [01:26:09] No, you don't have to lose and look forward, not look always bad. You say yesterday it was raining. No, today is raining say tomorrow is going to be sunny. But people are pessimistic today is sunny they tell you tomorrow is going to rain. So if you forget about everything, look forward, be happy. And if you don't like, take winter, if you cannot do nothing about winter. So why do you worry?
Lisette Shashoua: [01:26:45] This is wonderful. It's a great lesson. Thank you very much.You are welcome.
Lisette Shashoua: [01:26:52] Thank you for participating in this. And thank you for giving me the privilege to interview you it was really an honour. [SM: Thank you] Thank you Salim.