Rose Simon Schwartz
Cleaned by: Julia Pappo
Transcribed by: Rev
Interview date: June 20th, 2018
Interviewer: Lisette Shashoua
Location: Montreal
Total time: 1:45:10
Rose Simon Schwartz: Born in 1950 in Cairo, Egypt. Arrived in France in 1963. Arrived in Quebec in 1963.
Lisette Shashoua (00:00:00):
(silence)
Lisette Shashoua (00:00:16):
I would like to ask you, uh, your full name, where were you born, and- and when? (laughs)
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:00:25):
(laughs) Hi, my name is Rose Simon Schwartz. I was born in Cairo, Egypt, uh, in 1950.
Lisette Shashoua (00:00:35):
And, uh, first I'd like to thank you very much for participating in, um, the Sephardi Voices Project, and I would like you to start by telling us about your family's background, your parents.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:00:51):
It's very interesting, like a lot of us Jews from Egypt, we have very different and various backgrounds. From my father's side, uh, the origin of our family is in Spain-
Lisette Shashoua (00:01:05):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:01:05):
... they left, uh, during the Inquisition and they went to establish themselves in, uh, in Greece. And my grandparents were born... all the way to my grandparents, my grandparents were born in Greece, and then, um, in early nine- 20th Century, the moved to Egypt because Egypt was flourishing, it was a very, very, uh, prosperous country at the time. So they moved to Egypt, so my father was born in Egypt.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:01:35):
So from my mother's side, they're all from Syria, and they also moved to- to, uh, to Egypt because it was prosperous, but my mother was born in Egypt as well.
Lisette Shashoua (00:01:49):
Tell me, uh, what you remember about your grandparents, do you have any vivid memories of them, growing up?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:01:56):
Absolutely. My maternal grandparents, unfortunately I don't remember because they left to go to Israel in 1948-
Lisette Shashoua (00:02:05):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:02:06):
... and I wasn't born yet. My paternal grandparents lived with us. My father was an only child so they lived with us, it was a custom that th- the son would take care of the parents, so I have very, very vivid and beautiful memories of my grandparents. I have memories of them putting Greek music, doing Greek dancing in the house, uh, preparing all kinds of different foods, inviting the whole family for... it was always Greek theme, 'cause that's what they really were, they were Greek.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:02:42):
Um, although they were Greek, we spoke Spanish at home, Ladino, because they kept their Ladino from generations, they haven't-
Lisette Shashoua (00:02:52):
How many generations, from 49- 1479-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:02:57):
That's right.
Lisette Shashoua (00:02:57):
... or something, right?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:02:57):
40- 14, uh, uh, 1419, wasn't it? 14, yeah-
Lisette Shashoua (00:03:02):
Something.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:03:02):
... yeah.
Lisette Shashoua (00:03:03):
So like-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:03:04):
Hmm.
Lisette Shashoua (00:03:05):
... 300 years-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:03:06):
Yes.
Lisette Shashoua (00:03:06):
... uh, no more.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:03:07):
More than... oh, yeah, yeah. More than three- and they always kept, they kept the Span- the Ladino-
Lisette Shashoua (00:03:12):
At least 10 generations, if no more.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:03:14):
That's right, that's right.
Lisette Shashoua (00:03:16):
Amazing.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:03:17):
That's right. So at home, we would speak Sp- uh, Ladino. Uh, my mother would speak French to them because she didn't know Ladino, didn't know any Spanish or Ladino at all, um, so we just got along marvelously well.
Lisette Shashoua (00:03:32):
Your grandparents spoke how many languages?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:03:35):
They spoke Greek, Ladino, French, Arabic, four languages.
Lisette Shashoua (00:03:44):
And your dad?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:03:46):
My dad is the same thing. My dad was, uh, spoke Greek, Ladino, French, Arabic and English, my father spoke English because he studied in an English school in Egypt.
Lisette Shashoua (00:03:57):
Mm-hmm (affirmative), and your mom?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:04:00):
My mom spoke only French and Arabic. Uh, she didn't know any other languages.
Lisette Shashoua (00:04:07):
Okay. Um, tell me more, it sounds amazing what- with, you know, they- the religious habits, the activities, the marriage, uh, uh, marriages and stuff in- in the- in that environment, in- in, uh, Egypt?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:04:23):
W- well, um, us Jews were always together, we've always did things together, but we were also very, very, uh, f- friendly with the non-Jews, the Greeks, the Italians, because they were different, uh, different people that, um, came to Egypt.
Speaker 1 (00:04:51):
Oh, oh, sorry.
Lisette Shashoua (00:04:52):
I'd like to know more about life with your grandparents and the habits, the religious, the activities, um, the school where you lived, what you know about them first and then-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:05:09):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Lisette Shashoua (00:05:09):
... you-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:05:09):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Um, we lived in a very open society, very tolerant society, up to the time that we left Egypt, or maybe a little before even. Uh, we were very friendly with all the different communities, the non-Jewish communities, the Christians, the Ar- Muslims, uh, we had neighbors who were Greeks, Italian. So it was always, you know, a very opened soca- open society.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:05:38):
Uh, we- there were a few very important synagogues in Cairo, uh, we used to go to the, uh, Sha'ar HaShamayim in- in Egypt, which is- was called the Temple Ismailia, and this is where my parents got married, this is where my grandparents got married, and no... my- I'm sorry, parents got married there and my other, um, aunts and uncles.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:06:05):
Um, m- the life with my grandparents was always a very, um, very happy life. My parents never- my grandparents never showed any tension or, um, or fear, although, from what I am told, uh, there was tremendous fear, especially as of 1948, with the, uh, state of Israel being born. But my parents and my father never showed- showed us, the children, any concern whatsoever, uh, so we just, you know, we had a happy life (laughs) until we found out what was happening and until we decided was time to go.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:06:51):
But otherwise, life was just tremendous, b- my parents used to go out, they had clubs that they went to, we belonged to a club, to a tennis club, we used to go and, every Sunday, there. So it was very, it- it- it was- it was a life that no one could have dreamt of because it was comfortable, the weather was beautiful, we were outside, and we were together, we were one family with my grandparents, we always did things together as a family.
Lisette Shashoua (00:07:22):
And your mother was comfortable with that?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:07:24):
My mother was very, very comfortable, my mother was an angel. She took care of my grandparents throughout, but she would always say my grandmother's like her mother, and my grandmother would say, "She's my daughter." And because my mother was separated from her parents since 1948, she felt that they were her parents, and it was just harmony. It was harmony, was harmonious living at home.
Lisette Shashoua (00:07:52):
Beautiful.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:07:52):
Yeah.
Lisette Shashoua (00:07:53):
Okay. Do you know your grandparents, uh, how did they meet, uh, was there- was it a, uh, an arranged marriage, was it a love marriage?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:08:02):
I really don't know.
Lisette Shashoua (00:08:02):
Okay.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:08:04):
I unfortunately don't know.
Lisette Shashoua (00:08:06):
How about your parents?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:08:09):
My parents, no, it wasn't an arranged marriage, um, they met at a party. My mother had two sister, so the three sisters were always together, and like my father would say, "I looked at the three and I picked the right one."
Lisette Shashoua (00:08:26):
Aww.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:08:26):
(laughs) So, uh, it was a real love affair, it was a love affair up until eight years ago when they both passed away. And so they met and, uh, my fath- uh, they were always chaperoned by the two sisters, and that's how it worked, that's how it worked.
Lisette Shashoua (00:08:47):
Oh, they were chaperoned by the sisters-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:08:49):
By the-
Lisette Shashoua (00:08:49):
... til they got married?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:08:50):
Yes. Yes.
Lisette Shashoua (00:08:53):
And your father's name was?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:08:55):
Isaac.
Lisette Shashoua (00:08:56):
Isaac. Where was he born?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:08:59):
He was born in Egypt. My father was born in Egypt.
Lisette Shashoua (00:09:02):
And what was his profession?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:09:04):
He was a banker, he was working at the Barclay's bank in Egypt-
Lisette Shashoua (00:09:09):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:09:09):
... for many, many years. Well, actually, most of his career. And then up until the time, uh, in the late '50s where they pushed him aside because he was a Jew and he had to teach his functions... He was, uh, the director of letters of credit and he was dealing a lot with England because it was an English bank and he spoke English. So he had to teach all the work to, um, to somebody else, a non-Jew, a Muslim, who apparently, from what my father says, really didn't know very, very much. So he was slowly pushed, he was never fired, but he was slowly pushed, so that really got to him and this is when he started to say, "Mm-mm (negative), I think it's time to go."
Lisette Shashoua (00:09:59):
Hmm, smart one.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:10:01):
Yeah.
Lisette Shashoua (00:10:03):
What was your mother's name?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:10:04):
My mother is Odette [Shamma 00:10:06].
Lisette Shashoua (00:10:06):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:10:08):
Shamma, she comes from Syria, Shamma is Syrian.
Lisette Shashoua (00:10:14):
Is that the same Shamma as the one who made the movie about the Jews?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:10:20):
No.
Lisette Shashoua (00:10:20):
No?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:10:20):
No.
Lisette Shashoua (00:10:22):
And your mom was born in- where?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:10:24):
My mother was born in Egypt, also.
Lisette Shashoua (00:10:26):
Oh, in Egypt?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:10:27):
Yeah.
Lisette Shashoua (00:10:28):
Her- her maiden name was Shamma?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:10:30):
That's right, but originally, her parents and her ancestors were from Syria.
Lisette Shashoua (00:10:36):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And how old was she when she got married?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:10:41):
She was 21.
Lisette Shashoua (00:10:42):
Hmm. And what did she do?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:10:47):
She stayed home and took care of us. In Egypt, the women... it wasn't very, very customary for women to go out and work, especially at that time.
Lisette Shashoua (00:10:57):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:10:58):
So she very happily took on her role of, um, of motherhood-
Lisette Shashoua (00:11:04):
And you had help in the house?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:11:04):
... 'cause we were born... oh, we had help, of course, we always had... we had a maid and we had someone who would come and do the laundry, and the maid stayed with us all day and every day. S-
Lisette Shashoua (00:11:16):
She slept over?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:11:18):
No, she didn't sleep over, no.
Lisette Shashoua (00:11:20):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:11:20):
They'd... the maids we had, they went home at night, but they were with us until night and then they would come early morning.
Lisette Shashoua (00:11:28):
And your house was a big house?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:11:29):
No, we didn't have... no, we didn't have a big house, it was a modest, it was an apartment. It was on a very busy street and it was a three bedroom, um, apartment. But again, very modest but we were very comfortable, very happy and we didn't know anything else.
Lisette Shashoua (00:11:54):
Lovely. Uh, and tell me, uh, do you have any brothers or sisters?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:12:00):
I have a brother, he's four years older than I am.
Lisette Shashoua (00:12:03):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:12:04):
So my parents got him exactly one year after they were married.
Lisette Shashoua (00:12:07):
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Lisette Shashoua (00:12:13):
Tell me something about your brother, how close were you, what... did you play together all the time? What- tell me about your brother?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:12:22):
My brother and I love each other to death, uh, but we have never really been very close, there's four years difference, so when we would go to school, the Lycée Français du Caire where we both went, separated the girls from the boys as of the, uh, what would be the equivalent of Grade, um, uh, Grade Five here. So there was always... so he was already four years older than I am so he was in a different building-
Lisette Shashoua (00:12:57):
Hmm.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:12:57):
... and even before that, we were- really were not very- we didn't have common friends-
Lisette Shashoua (00:13:02):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:13:03):
... because we fell- I feel, is because of the difference in age. But we always communicated, we always talked to each other, we confide in each other, but we're not really that close.
Lisette Shashoua (00:13:16):
You didn't date his friends? Because it's a good age difference to-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:13:23):
No, but when we- when I left Egypt, I was- I was a young girl-
Lisette Shashoua (00:13:28):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:13:28):
... and I wasn't thinking of dating at the time. (laughs)
Lisette Shashoua (00:13:30):
Later.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:13:31):
He was.
Lisette Shashoua (00:13:32):
What about later?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:13:33):
Oh, no, no. He took a different path, he went to University of Montreal-
Lisette Shashoua (00:13:38):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:13:39):
... and his friends were mainly from the University of Montreal and some friends from Egypt, who moved to, uh, immigrated in Montreal. Um, and I went- I h- was forced to go to an English school because at the time when we came to- to Can- to Montreal, I couldn't go to a French school because the French schools were all for- were all for Catholic, and we were Jews so I wasn't allowed. The only school board that accepted Jews were the Protestant School Board, so English. So I studies in English so, you know, right away our paths were a little different-
Lisette Shashoua (00:14:17):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:14:17):
... in terms of, uh, s- s- in terms of friends.
Lisette Shashoua (00:14:21):
Yeah, socials so-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:14:22):
Social, exactly.
Lisette Shashoua (00:14:24):
Okay. What are your earliest memories of growing up, of Egypt, of... Earliest memories, something vivid that you cherish?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:14:35):
Um, I- I- I remember our family life, it's very vivid, our family is very vivid and our-
Lisette Shashoua (00:14:46):
Social circles, uh-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:14:48):
Every- that's right.
Lisette Shashoua (00:14:49):
... religious?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:14:50):
Uh, eh, w- yes... I- I remember all of this, I have very, very fond memories, the holidays, going to synagogue with my parents, having the family over, uh, although my father was an only child, he had a lot of cousins, so we were always together, we would either go to their house or they would come to our house and we'd do the holidays together. So it was really a family oriented type of life that, uh, I was brought up in.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:15:18):
Um, I remember the good times in school, in school was very good up until the point-
Lisette Shashoua (00:15:27):
[inaudible 00:15:27]?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:15:27):
No, it was Lycée Français du Caire.
Lisette Shashoua (00:15:29):
Oh.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:15:30):
Up until the time where we- most of the textbooks were in Arabic and most of the instruction was in Arabic, um, but that was later on, but when I was really young, growing up in that school, it was French and Arabic, it was just... everybody, we- we were very close, very friendly.
Lisette Shashoua (00:15:50):
And it was a mix, obviously [crosstalk 00:15:53]-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:15:52):
It was mixed, of-
Lisette Shashoua (00:15:53):
... uh, of religions.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:15:54):
... of course. Of course. And up until the time in my memories, very, very vivid, of the time when we started to think about moving away, that's also a very moving- very vivid. It took us- it took my father about five ye- uh, six years-
Lisette Shashoua (00:16:14):
Hmm.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:16:14):
... from the time he wanted to leave until we managed to- to leave. We left with a passport, we had a Greek passport, we were very fortunate because we were able to leave, we were able to take some of our belongings, so that's also the preparation, seeing our neighbours, like almost every week, who's leaving. My parents would talk and they would say, "Oh, so and so is leaving, where are they going? So and so are- is leaving." So that is also something that I remember very clearly and that's one sad part of my childhood.
Lisette Shashoua (00:16:51):
So being born in Egypt, you were not given a pa- an Egyptian passport?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:16:55):
Never, no. Egyptians, people who... even if they were born in Egypt, did not get the Egyptian, uh, passport.
Lisette Shashoua (00:17:06):
This is only for Jews?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:17:08):
This is only for Jews. They would not- they would not get. So the only people who had, uh, the Egyptian passports were people who were there for generations and generations, probably even since the Bible time. Otherwise, whoever immigrated into Egypt, couldn't- kept their own nationality.
Lisette Shashoua (00:17:30):
No matter how many generations?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:17:31):
No matter how many generations.
Lisette Shashoua (00:17:33):
Your dad was born in Egypt?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:17:34):
That's right.
Lisette Shashoua (00:17:36):
He still couldn't get a passport?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:17:38):
He still couldn't get a passport, we were Greeks and we left with a Greek passport, we were not... we could not get the Egyptian passport. A lot of the Jews who went, especially the Jews from Europe, who went there during the First World War, um, have no passport, they had no nationality. They left in Egypt with no nationality, they were [up a tree 00:18:01], was we- what we called them.
Lisette Shashoua (00:18:02):
And how did they leave, eventually?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:18:03):
They would leave with no passport, with [Foreign Language 00:18:06].
Lisette Shashoua (00:18:08):
An Egyptian [Foreign Language 00:18:09]?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:18:09):
Yes. Yes.
Lisette Shashoua (00:18:10):
One way?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:18:11):
Yes.
Lisette Shashoua (00:18:11):
One way.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:18:12):
Oh, for sure. Yes, when, uh, the Jews left... most of the Jews, when they left, they left with no return. One way.
Lisette Shashoua (00:18:21):
That was what was written on their [crosstalk 00:18:22]-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:18:22):
That was- was written, this is what was stamped on the passport, "Go without return."
Lisette Shashoua (00:18:27):
Yeah. So you had a lot of Jewish friends that... do you have memories about them, the Jewish friends, the non-Jewish friends? Do you- what are your memories about them?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:18:43):
Absolutely. We had a lot of Jewish friends, neighbours and friends and we would play together and be together, and also, um, non-Jewish friends. I had, in the building where we lived, I had some neighbours who were not Jewish, who were Muslims and they were friends with us. But, sorry, but the problem was that we were always- there was always a fear of saying that you are a Jew. Neighbours knew but you could not talk about being a Jew. They knew you were a Jew, that's fine, you were, you know, stay in your corner and you're okay. And we were very scared, my parents would never talk openly about politics, they would never talk openly about being a Jew-
Lisette Shashoua (00:19:30):
Or Israel?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:19:30):
... or Israel, oh, for sure, because first of all, let me just go back a little bit. My mother's sisters left one in '48 and one in '56, and they went to Israel but my mother could never communicate with them. We had to communicate through a grand aunt of mine in Greece.
Lisette Shashoua (00:19:50):
Hmm.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:19:51):
Um, and-
Lisette Shashoua (00:19:53):
So send a letter to Greece?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:19:53):
To Greece and my grand aunt in Greece would send the letter to- to my aunts in Israel.
Lisette Shashoua (00:19:59):
Change the stamp?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:20:00):
Exactly.
Lisette Shashoua (00:20:01):
Change the envelope?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:20:01):
Put in a different envelope, exactly. So there was no com- direct communications, that was a- you know, it was problematic, definitely problematic because, um... we couldn't get news from Israel as well and whatever my grand aunt or my family in Greece, uh, would send us, would always be in codes, was always be coded.
Lisette Shashoua (00:20:26):
What did you call Israel when you talked about it? Did you, uh, mention the word Israel?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:20:32):
Never. Never.
Lisette Shashoua (00:20:33):
What did you call it?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:20:34):
They- they said... you mean in letters or-
Lisette Shashoua (00:20:37):
No, when- even when you talk?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:20:39):
Oh, when we talked, [crosstalk 00:20:40] if we talked privately between Jews, it was no problem-
Lisette Shashoua (00:20:43):
Yes.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:20:43):
... but when you're outside, you didn't talk about Israel. You didn't mention, nevermind what you call it, you just never mentioned, because it didn't exist for you.
Lisette Shashoua (00:20:51):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:20:53):
That's- that was basically it. And there were a lot of, you know, problems that happened later on, there are also very, very vivid, in my mind, no not-
Lisette Shashoua (00:21:04):
[crosstalk 00:21:04] We will- we will have to-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:21:04):
... very pleasant-
Lisette Shashoua (00:21:05):
... [crosstalk 00:21:05] of that, it's very important.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:21:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Lisette Shashoua (00:21:07):
Okay, the- the neighbourhood you lived in, was it mixed?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:21:11):
Yes, it was a mixed neighbourhood.
Lisette Shashoua (00:21:14):
Hmm. And, uh, what was the area you lived in?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:21:20):
Um, what do you mean, what was-
Lisette Shashoua (00:21:22):
Or the area, what was it called, uh, was it Ismailia or-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:21:29):
No, it wasn't Ismailia, it was Attaba. It was called Attaba.
Lisette Shashoua (00:21:29):
Attaba.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:21:29):
That's right.
Lisette Shashoua (00:21:32):
And Ismailia was the like the, uh, posh-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:21:33):
A suburb. Yes, yes.
Lisette Shashoua (00:21:35):
... it was a posh suburb.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:21:35):
Yes, [Foreign Language 00:21:36] Ismailia, yeah.
Lisette Shashoua (00:21:38):
Yeah. And the clubs, tell me what clubs did you belong to, how many?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:21:43):
Uh, my father belonged to a tennis club because he was a tennis player-
Lisette Shashoua (00:21:47):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:21:48):
... uh, but there were different clubs and they were open to everybody; Jews as well as non-Jews. Uh, everybody was welcome and, um, so we w- I cannot tell you exactly how many clubs there were, but I know there were a few clubs.
Lisette Shashoua (00:22:06):
That you belonged to, your father?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:22:07):
No, we belonged to only one.
Lisette Shashoua (00:22:09):
Okay.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:22:09):
We belonged to a tennis club.
Lisette Shashoua (00:22:11):
Yes. Tell me about... well, the food obviously was Greek with your grandparents-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:22:16):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Lisette Shashoua (00:22:16):
... how about with your parents, same?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:22:18):
Same thing, my mother learned all the Greek dishes.
Lisette Shashoua (00:22:21):
(laughs)
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:22:21):
(laughs) And she was doing, also of course, Egyptian foods, uh-
Lisette Shashoua (00:22:27):
Oh, she did?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:22:27):
Oh, yes. She did, she learned everything, yeah. She did.
Lisette Shashoua (00:22:31):
So you had Egyptian food, you had-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:22:32):
We had Greek.
Lisette Shashoua (00:22:33):
... and your mom and- your mom and your grandmother cooked at home or you had somebody who came and helped cooking?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:22:38):
Hmm, no, they cooked, they cooked. We had somebody who used to go and do the shopping-
Lisette Shashoua (00:22:45):
Hmm.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:22:45):
... and sometime my mother would go with her, but the cooking, it was always my mother and grandmother, always.
Lisette Shashoua (00:22:54):
You mentioned that your mom was separated from her parents at '48, did they go to Israel?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:23:00):
That's right. That's right.
Lisette Shashoua (00:23:02):
Her parents went to Israel?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:23:04):
Her parents went to Israel in 1948, that's right.
Lisette Shashoua (00:23:07):
And of course, that was... that's how she had to communicate to- through Greece?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:23:11):
She- they went to Israel with one of their daughters, who was my mother's sister, who was also married at the time, she had just gotten married, and they left to go to, um, together to- to Israel. And that's how they had to communicate, she had to know whether they're still alive or not. So the bit of information they got was, again, through my grand aunt in Greece.
Lisette Shashoua (00:23:36):
Tell me about the dress code; did they dress m [crosstalk 00:23:39]-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:23:40):
Very fashionably, very fashionably. Uh, we had major, um, um, stores, major, uh, big stores and owned by Jews. Uh, and it was the latest fashion, we had everything from- from... a lot of things were brought in from Europe, imported from Europe, so the dress code was normal European, Western, fashionable dress code.
Lisette Shashoua (00:24:11):
Um, tell me about Shabbat or the holidays, say they're Rashanah at home, how did you celebrate? Synagogue?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:24:21):
Um, Shabbat, every Shabbat was, of course, done at home, and the Shabbat meal was prepared from Thursday night by my mother and my grandmother. And we would sit, the six of us, in the dining room and we would do the Kiddush, and we'd have, uh, the Shabbat meal. Um, my father was the only one who went to synagogue on Saturday, on Shabbat morning, we stayed at home. The holidays was the same thing, the holidays we would all go together to synagogue, and- and then the meals was always with family, like I said before, we always had the family, they all were over there, and it was always a f-
Lisette Shashoua (00:25:00):
What do you mean all were? So you have-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:25:00):
Over at our-
Lisette Shashoua (00:25:00):
... like aunts and uncles?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:25:05):
Yes, aunts, uncles, cousins.
Lisette Shashoua (00:25:07):
So likely would be how many?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:25:10):
We could be 15 people, we could be 10 people, depending, yeah-
Lisette Shashoua (00:25:15):
So it's not only the six of you-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:25:17):
No.
Lisette Shashoua (00:25:17):
... the six of you is only Shabbat?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:25:18):
That's right.
Lisette Shashoua (00:25:19):
Yeah.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:25:19):
That's right. That's right.
Lisette Shashoua (00:25:20):
Okay, but then when it came to Seder?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:25:23):
When it came to Seder, when it came to Rosh Hashanah, when it came to any, um, major holiday, it was always with my fathers family, my mother didn't have any family. So it was always my- my father's family, we were very, very close. So we'd always do the holidays together.
Lisette Shashoua (00:25:43):
You still are, do they come here [inaudible 00:25:45]?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:25:44):
Yes.
Lisette Shashoua (00:25:45):
Yeah?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:25:45):
Yes.
Lisette Shashoua (00:25:46):
That's wonderful.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:25:47):
Yes.
Lisette Shashoua (00:25:48):
Okay, so tell me, um, do you- do you remember the synagogue?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:25:57):
Yes, of course.
Lisette Shashoua (00:25:59):
There- can you describe it?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:26:00):
The synagogue was a... it was a magnificent synagogue and I don't say that only because I saw it with a children's- with a child's eyes. I say that because I've seen pictures later on. It was a magnificent synagogue with lots of marble. The women were- were upstairs on the second floor-
Lisette Shashoua (00:26:21):
What was the name again, of the synagogue?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:26:23):
It was Sha'ar Hashamayim-
Lisette Shashoua (00:26:23):
Yes.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:26:24):
... and we called it, in- in Egypt, we called it, uh, the Temple Ismailia.
Lisette Shashoua (00:26:30):
Yeah.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:26:31):
And this was one of the major synagogues there. Um, yes, so the- the- the- the women were on the second floor, the men on the first floor, v- very, very respectful, uh, ceremonies, everything was done to the tee, there- the Rabbi was a magnificent, the t- the Rabbi when- during my time, uh, was a Rabbi who was very, very well respected, um, person in the community.
PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:27:04]
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:27:01):
... um, person in the community.
Lisette Shashoua (00:27:04):
And hew as there every Saturday and every holiday-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:27:08):
Yes, yes.
Lisette Shashoua (00:27:08):
... and he gave... Did you give sermons?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:27:11):
I, unfortunately, I don't recall.
Lisette Shashoua (00:27:13):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:27:14):
I really don't recall.
Lisette Shashoua (00:27:17):
'Cause they didn't in ours. (laughs)
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:27:19):
Yeah. I'm, I don't know.
Lisette Shashoua (00:27:22):
Okay. Tell me, did you have a bat mitzvah?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:27:25):
No.
Lisette Shashoua (00:27:26):
Oh.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:27:26):
No. Girls did not... It wasn't customary for girls to have bat mitzvahs. Boys definitely, but girls no.
Lisette Shashoua (00:27:33):
Your brother, he had one [crosstalk 00:27:35].
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:27:35):
Absolut- absolutely.
Lisette Shashoua (00:27:36):
Can you tell me about it?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:27:37):
Yes. Absolutely. The bar mitzvahs we had were very different from the bar mitzvahs there are currently going on. The bar mitzvahs we had, we had the ceremony, of course, the bar mitzvah itself at synagogue with the family and friend, and then the reception was done at home. So I remember my mother and the maid and my aunts and my, uh, my grandmother cooking for weeks and weeks in advance, because we had it in our home.
Lisette Shashoua (00:28:10):
So where did they put the food? The freezers?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:28:14):
In, in fridges. They had fridges.
Lisette Shashoua (00:28:15):
Yeah.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:28:16):
Yeah.
Lisette Shashoua (00:28:16):
In the fridge.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:28:17):
In the fridge
Lisette Shashoua (00:28:18):
It was cooked for weeks and st-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:28:19):
Well, you did things for weeks. That's if you do the-
Lisette Shashoua (00:28:22):
Prepare.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:28:22):
... cookies, or-
Lisette Shashoua (00:28:24):
Yeah.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:28:24):
... um, uh, all kinds of Egyptian, uh, sweets that do not need to be cooked.
Lisette Shashoua (00:28:31):
Yes.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:28:32):
But the food itself as far as cooking food, yes, of course, it was left in the fridge, but not done in m- weeks ahead.
Lisette Shashoua (00:28:41):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Um, you remember Brit Milah's wedding celebrations? Do you remember how that went?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:28:48):
Yes, yes. Wedding celebration was... Yes, I remember. Uh, Brit Milah, no, unfortunately, I don't recall, but I know we had from what I hear from my parents, we had a very good and reputable mohel, and it was one that did most of the Jewish boys.
Lisette Shashoua (00:29:07):
Mm-hmm (affirmative), mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:29:08):
And, uh, the Jewish ceremonies were, they, the m- wedding ceremonies were just about the same as anywhere else, but again, weddings were mainly done the c- the, the ceremonies at the synagogue, and then the, uh, the reception at home.
Lisette Shashoua (00:29:25):
Yeah, with food.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:29:28):
With food.
Lisette Shashoua (00:29:28):
And dance?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:29:30):
No dance, no. Mainly food.
Lisette Shashoua (00:29:32):
Hmm.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:29:33):
No.
Lisette Shashoua (00:29:34):
Same. You don't remember. Did, did women go to, uh, funerals?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:29:40):
Yes.
Lisette Shashoua (00:29:41):
They did go.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:29:41):
Yes, women went to funerals.
Lisette Shashoua (00:29:43):
They went to the, um, to the-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:29:44):
To the cemetery, yes.
Lisette Shashoua (00:29:46):
They did?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:29:46):
Yes, they did. Yes, they allowed women to go to cemetery.
Lisette Shashoua (00:29:50):
Were there any holy sites that you went to visit in Egypt? Was there any that-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:29:57):
Well, there was the, um, the Maimonides Synagogue-
Lisette Shashoua (00:30:02):
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:30:03):
... that was in old Cairo.
Lisette Shashoua (00:30:04):
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:30:06):
Uh, I never went inside, but I walked by outside, and I know of the story, because this is where Maimonides used to pray, and this is where he healed. He had a room where he healed people. A lot of Muslims went to, to him to be healed. Um, uh, and aside from that, other Jewish sites, not really, no.
Lisette Shashoua (00:30:32):
Can you tell me more about this Maimonides Syn- Synagogue?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:30:36):
This, Maimonides what, of course, it was very, very old. It was from the time of Maimonides, and Maimonides was, was a doctor. And he was a doctor f- of the, of the aristocracy at the time. People used to go to him no matter what your religion was, especially the Muslims because he was, he was an excellent doctor, very, very intelligent person. And also, they claimed that he had those healing powers. So I know of s-... He had a room inside the synagogue, and I know of someone, a child, who's mother was desperate because he was very sick and he couldn't, nobody could find out what was wrong. And he went, and he stayed there for one week and slowly, slowly he got better. I don't know the, the reason why he was sick or what happened to that child, but all I know is that he walked out of there, and he's a very healthy man today, because I know that person.
Lisette Shashoua (00:31:38):
Do you know, do you know that gentleman?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:31:38):
Yes, I know. I know.
Lisette Shashoua (00:31:40):
Did you ever ask him what he remembers?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:31:44):
The only... Yes, I did. The thing he remembers, because he was a small child as well, is his mother and himself living there in that room for a week, and then-
Lisette Shashoua (00:31:56):
Did-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:31:56):
... feeling better.
Lisette Shashoua (00:31:57):
With Maimonides in the room, or coming in and out?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:32:01):
No, coming in and out. But he was living in there, the child with the mother was living in there.
Lisette Shashoua (00:32:06):
Wonderful.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:32:06):
Yes.
Lisette Shashoua (00:32:07):
Wow.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:32:08):
Yup. Yeah, it was amazing. Yup.
Lisette Shashoua (00:32:10):
It was the time Maimonides was a, not... Maimonides was alive?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:32:15):
No, no, no, no. No, no.
Lisette Shashoua (00:32:16):
Oh.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:32:17):
No, no. That was... After that, they kept the same, the same principle, because they said it was going to be that room, that synagogue was so holy-
Lisette Shashoua (00:32:28):
That, the energy.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:32:29):
... had the energy from... I'm sorry, yeah. I'm, I'm, I didn't express myself correctly. Had that same energy as the time of Maimonides because that's what Maimonides used to do at the time.
Lisette Shashoua (00:32:41):
Do you know what happened to this synagogue? Is it still around? Has it been-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:32:44):
Yes.
Lisette Shashoua (00:32:45):
... destroyed?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:32:45):
No, no. It's still there. There's actually one synagogue, I'm not sure it's this one, that was totally renovated by, um, Phyllis Lambert with her own funds. It was completely redone. The other synagogues right now including the Maimonides Synagogue, uh, are closed. If you want to go, you have to ask permission that will open the door. So they will open the door for groups, groups of tourists, but there's, of course, no more minyanim, there's no more prayers going on, because Egypt is left with about six or seven, Cairo, six or seven individuals, that's all.
Lisette Shashoua (00:33:34):
Now this, Maimonides room, the Muslims don't believe in it anymore, this, this cemetery. I mean, so- I'm sorry. The synagogue [crosstalk 00:33:41]-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:33:41):
The synagogue.
Lisette Shashoua (00:33:42):
... Maimonides room, but thank God, it's still preserved.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:33:48):
It's still, yeah. I don't know today to be honest with you.
Lisette Shashoua (00:33:48):
I mean, if it's renovated, it could lose its energy.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:33:51):
Yeah, I guess.
Lisette Shashoua (00:33:52):
Hopefully, it's not-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:33:54):
I guess.
Lisette Shashoua (00:33:54):
... touched. Wow. That's-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:33:59):
Yeah, it's-
Lisette Shashoua (00:34:00):
That's an incredible... You, do you know if there were mikvehs there?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:34:08):
No, I, I really don't know. I supposed there was, because there was everything that was available to the Jewish community. We were in all of Egypt, 80,000 Jews. That's quite a bit, and they catered to all the Jews in Alexandria, in Cairo, in small cities. We had everything.
Lisette Shashoua (00:34:26):
And now there's six individuals.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:34:28):
Now there... In Cairo, there's six individuals.
Lisette Shashoua (00:34:30):
Are they married to non-Jews? Is that why they stayed?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:34:33):
Some of them are. Some of them are married to Muslims, and some of them do not want to leave.
Lisette Shashoua (00:34:39):
Yeah, elderly.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:34:40):
Well, the ones where they're, yes, they're elderly. The six people are six elderly people. I think it's five women and one man from the latest report I got. And they're too old to leave, but they did not want to leave. They said this is their country. They speak Arabic. They're dressed like Muslims. Um, they don't necessarily, um, follow the Jewish tradition, and they're happy. They're there and they don't want to... And they leave them alone. They're part of the... They're, like, part of their culture, the Muslim culture anyway.
Lisette Shashoua (00:35:15):
And they wear the [inaudible 00:35:17]?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:35:17):
No, they, no. The, the men will wear the galabeya.
Lisette Shashoua (00:35:20):
Ah.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:35:21):
But, um, just not to go outside. To go outside, they're still dressed as, uh, Western pe- even the women. They're dressed as, uh, in Western fashion.
Lisette Shashoua (00:35:33):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). About the galabeya, did your parents wear it at home? Sleep with it as a-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:35:37):
No.
Lisette Shashoua (00:35:38):
... pajama?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:35:38):
No.
Lisette Shashoua (00:35:39):
No.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:35:39):
No, we never did.
Lisette Shashoua (00:35:40):
The galabeya was worn to, as a, as a chic thing, or to sleep with?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:35:46):
No, it was worn when you had ceremonies, when you had holidays for example. If you had, uh, holidays, you would see a lot of the Muslim men go out on the street with those beautiful galabeya with gold trim or silver trim. But also, there are galabeya to stay home with. So some of the Jews just got this, uh, this custom of wearing a galabeya, because it was very hot, and that was so comfortable to wear the galabeya at home. But a Jew would not leave the house with a galabeya.
Lisette Shashoua (00:36:18):
So the galabeya could be made of linen, of silk, of-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:36:21):
That's right. You had dif-... Depends on the type of galabeya and the type of event that you want to wear it. Yes, there were some beautiful ones made of silk with, like I said, with some golden or silver trimming, and yet some galabeya made of cotton, made of linen.
Lisette Shashoua (00:36:37):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Do you ha-... Did you have any unique, uh, superstitions or, or expressions at home or do you remember any kind of-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:36:53):
Not really.
Lisette Shashoua (00:36:54):
[inaudible 00:36:54] or-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:36:55):
No, not really.
Lisette Shashoua (00:36:57):
And any prominent religious figures that you remember, or in the family, or anybody else?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:37:05):
Um, the, the religious figure that I remember mostly is a Rabbi, uh, of the, of the temple where we used to go. Um, plus an uncle of mine who was, who was observant, and he would be the one to lead us into all the prayers during the holidays for the Haggadah, for example, or other holidays. But other than that, there were no really strong religious figure as such.
Lisette Shashoua (00:37:40):
What ever happened to that Rabbi? Did he leave?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:37:43):
No, he didn't leave. He passed away in, um, in Egypt. He did not want to leave. He did not want... He said he would never leave and leave his congre- his, his people. He called it his people. He would never leave and, and leave his people behind.
Lisette Shashoua (00:37:59):
When, when did he pass away? Do you remember? '70s? '80s?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:38:04):
No, I really don't remember.
Lisette Shashoua (00:38:06):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Were there any Zionist organizations in Egypt?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:38:13):
Oh, yes. They're varied. They were, of course, clandestine. They weren't open, but there were Zionist organizations. There were groups of those Zionists that help Jews go into Israel. They would help fund certain things for Israel. They would-
Lisette Shashoua (00:38:34):
Like what?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:38:34):
They would fund, uh, the, um, the, um, for example, the, the scouts, the Jewish scouts. They would fund in Egypt.
Lisette Shashoua (00:38:45):
The, uh, the Jewish scouts were in Egypt.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:38:45):
In Egypt. That's right.
Lisette Shashoua (00:38:46):
Tell me what year were the Jewish scouts allowed to be in Egypt?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:38:50):
The, we left in 1963.
Lisette Shashoua (00:38:53):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:38:54):
And it was, they were still there, but very, very few and very hush hush.
Lisette Shashoua (00:38:59):
So they were Jewish scouts-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:39:01):
Yes.
Lisette Shashoua (00:39:01):
... but it was-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:39:02):
Yes.
Lisette Shashoua (00:39:02):
... not... It, it was not-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:39:02):
It-
Lisette Shashoua (00:39:03):
[crosstalk 00:39:03] hush hush.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:39:03):
It was, it was definitely legal probably up to 1948, because everything just totally changed in 1948. Don't forget this is also when Gamal Abdel Nasser came, and the king was overthrown. The king was very good to, to Jews, so he was over, overthrown. And right away, you had, um, Gamal Abdel Nasser came, and everything just started to change.
Lisette Shashoua (00:39:28):
What year was the king overthrown?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:39:35):
Uh, he was overthrown 1948, '47. '47. '47 or '48.
Lisette Shashoua (00:39:35):
Oh, just before-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:39:35):
Yes.
Lisette Shashoua (00:39:36):
... Gamal Abdel Nasser came.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:39:37):
He came. That's right. This is when he came, and this is when things really turned around. And it coincided with the establishment of the state of Israel.
Lisette Shashoua (00:39:48):
Uh, the king was overthrown. He was exiled to France?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:39:52):
He was exiled to France. He, he left... I mean, after I saw the movie of what happened to the king in Iraq, um, our king was treated like royalty to the end. He was put on a ship with his family and all his belongings, and he was shipped to, uh, to France.
Lisette Shashoua (00:40:12):
That was Farouk.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:40:13):
That was Farouk. That's right.
Lisette Shashoua (00:40:14):
And by Nasser.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:40:16):
That's right, that's right. Well, it wasn't Nasser at the time. It was, uh, Naguib, a general who was called Naguib, because it's the, um, it's the, um, um, the government was run by military.
Lisette Shashoua (00:40:35):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:40:36):
So it was a military coup.
Lisette Shashoua (00:40:37):
Coup.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:40:38):
It was a military coup.
Lisette Shashoua (00:40:39):
So Naguib came, and Nasser-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:40:41):
Naguib came, and Na-
Lisette Shashoua (00:40:41):
When did Nasser come?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:40:41):
Nasser came after him. Naguib came when the king was, when the king was, uh, exiled, and he stayed in power I believe for about two or three years, and then Nasser came.
Lisette Shashoua (00:40:55):
Did he kill him?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:40:56):
No.
Lisette Shashoua (00:40:56):
Hmm.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:40:58):
No.
Lisette Shashoua (00:40:59):
He, he's, he exiled him?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:41:01):
He, um, I don't really remember what happened to Naguib. I really don't remember.
Lisette Shashoua (00:41:08):
Uh, what were the family views on, uh, Zionism?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:41:14):
My parents were, were fervent Zionists. Um, they believed in Palestine at the time. They believed in the state of Israel when it was created. They believed in a state for Jews, and my f- my grandparents always said, "One year, we will all end up in Israel."
Lisette Shashoua (00:41:36):
Hmm.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:41:37):
This was their desire to end up in Israel, in a country that would be good for the Jews. I supposed a lot of that stems from the fact that they suffered so much at the end in Egypt. A good life was all forgotten and gone that they dreamt of this Jewish state where they would be free.
Lisette Shashoua (00:41:59):
Can you tell me about the slow turnaround that happened? I mean, you grew up. You didn't realize things were going bad, but your parents did. Now, we come to '56 where the Suez Canal, where the Suez Canal-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:42:13):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Lisette Shashoua (00:42:13):
... and obviously this was another.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:42:15):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Lisette Shashoua (00:42:16):
Can you tell me about it? Can you tell me about this turnaround?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:42:19):
Yes. Uh, things did not turn around over night.
Lisette Shashoua (00:42:24):
Hmm.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:42:24):
Things were done slowly and meticulously. Um, there started to be riots, riots against the Jews in the streets. They started to arrest Jews for no reason except for being a Jew.
Lisette Shashoua (00:42:44):
What year was that?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:42:46):
That was, it started in 1956.
Lisette Shashoua (00:42:48):
After the, but not from '48 to '56.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:42:52):
No, no.
Lisette Shashoua (00:42:53):
'48 to '56-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:42:53):
From '48-
Lisette Shashoua (00:42:54):
... Jews were left alone.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:42:55):
Jews were left alone. We, the Jews felt pressure. The Jews felt, because this is when they started just to say, "Mm-mm (negative). We shouldn't say we're Jews. We shouldn't talk about being a Jew. We should just be very quiet in our corner." This is, this was the mentality at the time.
Lisette Shashoua (00:43:16):
So people started to immigrate to Israel, or least-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:43:18):
They started bef- e- bef- even before '48, but mainly after '48.
Lisette Shashoua (00:43:24):
Okay.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:43:24):
After the-
Lisette Shashoua (00:43:25):
The 80,000 Jews started immigrating before '48. By '56, how many were left?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:43:35):
By '56, hmm, I'm not sure of the numbers, but all I know is that there was a bigger exodus, but I'm sorry, I don't remember numbers. That was a bigger exodus from forty's um, uh, from '56 to about 1960.
Lisette Shashoua (00:43:57):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:43:58):
This is where you would hear every day, "Another person left. Another person left. Another person was arrested. Another person was arrested." And this is when things started deteriorating.
Lisette Shashoua (00:44:12):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). So when people were leaving, the ones who didn't have passports were leaving with laissez-passer, and they were giving it to them.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:44:18):
They were giving it to them, yes.
Lisette Shashoua (00:44:19):
So when they asked for a laissez-passer-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:44:21):
Yes.
Lisette Shashoua (00:44:22):
... it took, what, three months, a year to get a laissez-passer?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:44:24):
It could take up to couple of years. A couple of years. People were getting ready one or two years before they could leave. It wasn't done so easily.
Lisette Shashoua (00:44:36):
What about your getting your Greek passports?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:44:38):
We had the Greek passports, so for us, things were a lot easier because we were f- foreigners.
Lisette Shashoua (00:44:45):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:44:46):
We weren't Egyptians. We were Jews. They didn't care. They would get rid of us. It was, you know, a family of six less Jews in Egypt. So they didn't... W- it took us, I would say my father told me it took us about a year to get all the papers in order to be able to leave. It took a year.
Lisette Shashoua (00:45:04):
What about, uh, the apartment. Did you own it? Were you able to sell it?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:45:08):
No, we, we didn't own the apartment. We rented the apartment, and, uh, we were able to sell some of the furniture, because we were able to say that we were leaving. We were not scared. Some people were scared to say they were leaving. They were scared to be stopped. They were scared to have interference from, from people who, you know, with ill feelings.
Lisette Shashoua (00:45:31):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:45:32):
Uh, but we could say... I mean, we wouldn't run in the street and say, "Hey, we're leaving," but it wasn't hush hush as some other people, because again, we were foreigners. So we managed to leave, to, to sell some of our stuff, and we managed to bring out some of our stuff.
Lisette Shashoua (00:45:48):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Did you leave anything behind?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:45:51):
Yes, we did. Absolutely. We left a lot of furniture. We left a lot of... Uh, but all the important things and the valuable things, we managed to take with us.
Lisette Shashoua (00:46:01):
The money, the-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:46:03):
Money, um, no. Money was another, money was another problem. My father worked in the bank, so he kind of saw things coming way back.
Lisette Shashoua (00:46:15):
You said it took six years, right?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:46:16):
That's right. So he would transfer some of our money in England, and he would transfer through some Egyptians.
Lisette Shashoua (00:46:28):
Not through the bank.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:46:29):
Not through the bank. He wasn't allowed through the bank. I mean, indirectly through the bank, but through Egyptians who would do the transaction and send the money in England, to the Barclay's bank head office. And that's how we managed to take out some of the money.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:46:46):
Uh, leaving Egypt, you were not allowed to take money with you. You were allowed to take a certain amount, certain ridiculous amount. Forgive me, I don't remember, but a sort of ridiculous amount, and especially in Egyptian pounds. I mean, where would you use Egyptian pounds. Even at the time, the Egyptian pound wasn't really recognized anywhere in the world. So, um, as far as this is, so this is what we did. A lot of the families were able to, to, to leave. They would buy clothe, they would buy things that they could take out so that at least they could spend some of that money, and it would be used here.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:47:24):
So my mother had a seamstress come to the house, and she would make us coats, and she would make us suits, and she would make my grandfather and my father's suits, and my brother as well. Just because the quality, of course, of the material and the workmanship was tremendous in Egypt. So we left with luggage full of, um, of clothing including night gowns and pajamas that the seamstress sewed for us instead of taking out the money.
Lisette Shashoua (00:47:52):
What about jewelry?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:47:54):
Jewelry also, you were allowed a certain amount in, in terms of, uh-
Lisette Shashoua (00:47:59):
As foreigners. If you had been Egyptian, would you have been able to take out the same?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:48:04):
Um, I don't know.
Lisette Shashoua (00:48:05):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:48:06):
I don't know. But I know as foreigners, I know all, all the Jews, no, all the Jews, because I'm trying to remember different members of the family who were not, branches were not from, uh, uh, who-
Lisette Shashoua (00:48:20):
Greece.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:48:20):
... who were not from Greece. No, you were allowed up to a certain amount of gold, and otherwise, you're not allowed.
Lisette Shashoua (00:48:30):
You would wear it.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:48:30):
So a lot of people-
Lisette Shashoua (00:48:33):
You'd have to wear what you were taking with you?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:48:33):
You have to wear... A lot of people smuggled out things in their shoes, in their underwear. They sewed it inside the hems of dresses and prayed they wouldn't get stopped at the board- at, at, uh-
Lisette Shashoua (00:48:47):
Were people stopped?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:48:48):
Yes. Yes. Some people were stopped, but thank God, the only thing that they did was just take everything. My grandmother, my poor grandmother, she was in her s- in her late 60s when we left, but still, she was just so nervous and so scared. She took some money. Nobody knew. She didn't say any, anything to anybody, and she sewed it in her jacket, the inside of her jacket. And of course, they found it. They found it, because you were, you were frisked when you left. You went, women went on one side. You had to get all undressed, and they would take every piece of clothing and check. And they were found. And they called my father and said, "You know you're smuggling money out of the country?" My father knew nothing about it.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:49:42):
So thank God, thank God that they let us go. They took the money and they let us go. But, you know, my poor grandmother, she just wanted to have some kind of security. Little did she know that this money was worth nothing outside of, of Egypt.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:49:58):
So yes, so we were some of the lucky ones that were able to bring out some of our belongings. A lot of them, especially the ones who were arrested, the family had to leave with nothing, left everything behind, the apartment as is, could not take any money out. Businesses had to be left behind. Well first of all, it's a long story, but it started with, when Nasser came and he, uh, he took over all the businesses, all the Jewish businesses. So we had big department stores like Cicurel, like Shemla, they were all run by Jews. One day, the owner goes, and there's a seal on the door. The business is not his anymore. So many Jews died of heart attacks, because everything was ceased from them. Their businesses were no longer their businesses, and that all started with Gamal Abdel Nasser. That's what he decided to do to nationalize all foreign and Jewish businesses.
Lisette Shashoua (00:51:04):
Foreign and Jewish.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:51:05):
And Jewish businesses. That's right.
Lisette Shashoua (00:51:09):
So Jew is a foreign, even though they were there since biblical time.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:51:12):
Of course, of course. We were always foreigners. We spoke Arabic, we went to school with them, we played with the, but we were always Jews, and Jews were different. Jews were foreigners.
Lisette Shashoua (00:51:28):
Tell me about what you felt, what happened at home in '56 around you, the Jews, the friends. What, I'm sure that was a big turning point, but what happened to you guys there?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:51:45):
Um, I remember very vividly that we, we couldn't listen to the news, or if we had to listen to the news, to the ratio because we wanted to hear outside news, international news.
Lisette Shashoua (00:52:00):
Israel?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:52:02):
No Israel, but outside.
Lisette Shashoua (00:52:04):
You couldn't hear Israel news.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:52:05):
You couldn't hear Israel news, nope. So we had to put the radio very low and just gather around it. We did not have a TV at the time, so we were, it was really the radio.
Lisette Shashoua (00:52:16):
What channel were you able to hear, listen to other than Egypt?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:52:19):
BBC.
Lisette Shashoua (00:52:21):
You were able to listen-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:52:21):
Yes.
Lisette Shashoua (00:52:22):
... in English?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:52:22):
In English, yes. We were able, so my father listened to BBC. That was his, uh, news network. Um, I remember the fear, the fear of, again, saying we were Jews.
Lisette Shashoua (00:52:37):
(laughs)
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:52:38):
Uh, I didn't feel it in school, because we were still young kids, and the young kids were still okay. But, um, I remember, uh, we had to, in school, we had to learn and we had to recite certain portions of the Quran, and they would force us to do that as children. Whether you liked it or not, you had to do it. Uh, I remember neighbours leaving. My father, my mother say, "Oh, did you hear that? They are leaving. Did you hear that?" So it was a, a, a... Although I was small, I could feel the tension. It was times of such tremendous tension, and then things happened with my own fa- with my mother's sister in 1958, uh '56. Sorry. Um, my grand- my, my uncle was taken to jail. A few weeks before he was taken to jail, he would have someone knock at the door and say, you know, "I'm a poor Jew. I really want to go to Israel. Can you help me with some money? I'm going to try to escape and go to Israel." And-
Lisette Shashoua (00:53:47):
He gave the money.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:53:48):
And he gave them money, and he gave them money one time, two times. And then one time, they come to the, to the apartment. It was the middle of the night. They turned all the lights off the middle of the night, and they say, " We're taking you in. You're arrested." Then he says, "Why?" He says, "For treason..."
PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:54:04]
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:54:03):
... we're taking you in, you're arrested and this is why. He says for treason, he says, what treason? He says, because you're helping, uh, Jews leave to go to Israel. So all of those people that were coming to ask for money were people put there by the, uh, the, the government and that's how they caught you. So my uncle was taken to jail. My aunt had two, uh, children, underage children, uh, three, I'm sorry.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:54:28):
One baby, a few months old and two, two years old, four years old. And they said to her in three weeks, they gave her the date, in three weeks, you go to Alexandria, we're going to give you the tickets for this ship and you'll, you'll find your husband on the ship. My aunt, I, that I remember, although I was a very young child, my aunt all alone with three, a baby, and two underage kids had to prepare, do everything, get the papers done, the passports and everything.
Lisette Shashoua (00:55:04):
She got Greek passport?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:55:06):
No, that was from my mother's side. So she had the, um-
Lisette Shashoua (00:55:12):
[inaudible 00:55:12].
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:55:13):
I don't remember. I really don't know what kind of passport they had. I'm trying to remember but I am not sure, but she had to get all the paperwork done. Uh, of course with the help of my mother and my family, we all helped. And she, they went to, to Alexander, and-
Lisette Shashoua (00:55:32):
How far is Alexandria?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:55:35):
Four, four hours driving.
Lisette Shashoua (00:55:37):
And where were you living?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:55:38):
In Cairo?
Lisette Shashoua (00:55:39):
In Cairo?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:55:40):
That's right, and the port was in Alexandria. So, and she remember, I remember her saying to my mother, "I don't know if I'll ever see my husband." She had no communication during those three weeks. She had no idea where he was. The only thing she was, they told her and she was hoping is to find him on the ship and lucky for her she did.
Lisette Shashoua (00:56:02):
And where did they go?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:56:04):
And they went to, well, they w-, they went, they stopped in Greece because the ship went to Greece, but they were going, they went to Israel. They went directly-
Lisette Shashoua (00:56:13):
They lived in Israel?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:56:14):
Oh, yes. They lived in Israel. The kids are there, they're there. All my mother's family is in Israel, they all left, '48, '56 and they're still there. So all of those things that were happening in our family, in our surroundings, in our neighbourhood made us, so th-, these are the last images I have of Egypt. And the last image I have is on the plane, taking off.
Lisette Shashoua (00:56:44):
To?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:56:45):
Coming, uh, to, we were, we left Egypt to go to France when we left, when, Egypt for good. And I remember looking down and seeing Cairo, um, and saying, "The good life is gone." That's what I was saying as a child, the good life is, is gone because we didn't know where we, when were going to Canada it was the end of the world. We didn't know what was expecting, what we were expecting in, in, um, in Canada. And I said, "The good life is gone." That's what I said, that was, it's so vivid in my mind.
Lisette Shashoua (00:57:31):
Yeah. When we are young, we react very strongly to these things.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:57:35):
Absolutely. My parents were thrilled, they were not crying. They were, they had, they had, of course they were nos-, they were, they were nostalgic about leaving their own country, but they were so relieved that there were, we were let go. They were so relieved we were on the plane. It was like euphoric. I remember my parents were going through a euphoric stage, they were so happy.
Lisette Shashoua (00:58:02):
So tell me, you went to France as, uh, you just stopped over-
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:58:08):
Yeah.
Lisette Shashoua (00:58:08):
... you, you paid for yourselves?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:58:10):
Yes. Yes. We paid for ourselves. We went to France. We stayed in a hotel in France. Uh, the Jewish [crosstalk 00:58:19]. Yes. The Jewish Organization helped us, definitely. Um, my father had three cousins in France who had left Egypt long, long time ago. So we were able to, to see them. We stayed in France for a month. And then we came to Montreal.
Lisette Shashoua (00:58:38):
To get the papers for Montreal, for Canada? Is that why you stayed a month?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:58:43):
No. The papers were all done in Egypt. Everything was done in Egypt. Yes, we got all the Canadian papers in Egypt.
Lisette Shashoua (00:58:49):
Okay.
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:58:51):
No, we just stayed to, to, to be in France to, to, to feel the freedom, it was the first time that my parents felt the freedom, um, of walking without being scared, talking without being scared. So they were actually enjoying that freedom.
Lisette Shashoua (00:59:14):
And coming here, tell me about coming here. You came by plane?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:59:19):
We came by, um, by plane. Yes. Um, you know what? I said we came by plane, but I told you the wrong... I'm sorry, I got mixed up. We left each at by plane, but we arrived here from France by boat, by ship. We took ship, uh, with another aunt of mine who was leaving Egypt at the same time. So we met in France.
Lisette Shashoua (00:59:48):
Aunt, the sister of your dad?
Rose Simon Schwartz (00:59:50):
Uh, the, with my second aunt, I just, I call them my aunt, but it's my father's cousin. We met in France and then we took the ship to come here together. So we landed in Quebec City. And then from Quebec City, we took the train to come to Montreal. And in Montreal, there was another cousin of my aunt who had been, of my father, I'm sorry, who had been here also for, since 1949, I think '40 or '50, who was waiting for us.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:00:21):
She's the one who, who was our, our sponsors because you needed a sponsor to come to Canada. So she sponsored the whole family. So we all came, so we came here and she was waiting for us. And JIAS helped us, they, um, they found this an apartment. We went, right away, went to an apartment. And my father was very, very, very lucky. He had very good, uh, letters of recommendations from his superiors in, in Cairo. And he managed-
Lisette Shashoua (01:00:58):
Even though they pushed him aside?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:01:00):
Even though they pushed him aside because his superior superiors were from, from, were English and they were still there. So these are the ones he got recommendations from. So he managed to, within, I think it was a month or so find a job here in a bank.
Lisette Shashoua (01:01:18):
Which bank?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:01:18):
Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce. That was his first and only job. He worked at the bank until he retired in that bank.
Lisette Shashoua (01:01:28):
So you did not, uh, have refugee, uh, help or help from the government?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:01:34):
We did have, it wasn't refugee help, because we weren't refugees, but we had immigrants help, the JIAS, from the JIAS, we got help.
Lisette Shashoua (01:01:46):
For a year of for how long?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:01:47):
I don't remember.
Lisette Shashoua (01:01:48):
Okay.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:01:48):
I don't know.
Lisette Shashoua (01:01:49):
So now you were here, you were 10 years old?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:01:53):
I was, I was 13 years old.
Lisette Shashoua (01:01:54):
13 years old, yes. So tell me our impressions, so did you have to adjust to Montreal? Did you, um, how did you feel? What was the experience coming here?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:02:08):
It was very, very, very different. Um, we thought people, there were no people walking in the street because the streets were so clean compared to Egypt.
Lisette Shashoua (01:02:22):
What, what, uh, what time of year did you arrive?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:02:24):
September 11th. It was September.
Lisette Shashoua (01:02:27):
September 11th.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:02:28):
Yeah. That famous day. Yeah, that's when we came. Uh, September 11th, so it was just the beginning of fall, but it was still, the weather was still nice.
Lisette Shashoua (01:02:38):
And the, and the trees starting to change.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:02:40):
Uh, so this was another marvelous, marvelous thing, is to watch those trees turn red and yellow. It was like unreal because we never knew that.
Lisette Shashoua (01:02:53):
Yes, of course.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:02:54):
Uh, it was, um, so the cleanli-, cleanliness was something that really struck us. Uh, the politeness of the people, um, Canadians were very quiet, they were very polite. There were, you know, waiting for the bus in line. They wouldn't step in front of you if they were behind you. And it was such a culture shock, a terrible culture shock, but it was a very positive one.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:03:22):
And as a 13 year old, it was very exciting. It was very exciting because it was in your life because of the freedom, because I felt my parents are comfortable, not stressed out. So it was just, it was almost like a rebirth. It was a very, very good feeling. It was difficult to get adjusted to this new school, going to an English school, not speaking a word of English. It w-, the adjustment was not that easy, but as a 13 year old, you do it.
Lisette Shashoua (01:03:59):
Uh, what school did you go to?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:04:00):
I went to, I, I went to a Finish elementary at Strathcona, and then I went to the high school, which [inaudible 01:04:08] Strathcona, which was [inaudible 01:04:10].
Lisette Shashoua (01:04:09):
Were you, did you have to lose a year of-
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:04:13):
No.
Lisette Shashoua (01:04:13):
No?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:04:14):
No.
Lisette Shashoua (01:04:15):
You, you went straight into-
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:04:16):
Yeah.
Lisette Shashoua (01:04:17):
Wow, that is amazing.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:04:18):
Yeah, yeah, no, I went straight-
Lisette Shashoua (01:04:21):
And you just got immersed in English?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:04:21):
Yes.
Lisette Shashoua (01:04:23):
While you were [inaudible 01:04:24] French and Arabic?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:04:26):
That's right. But there was a lot of, uh, immigrants in my class, immigrants from Morocco immigrants from, 'cause this is when the Moroccan immigration had started early '60s. Um, there were immigrants from France. So we had a class that was more French than English, so we managed among ourselves to, to help each other to, to, to at least communicate. Yeah.
Lisette Shashoua (01:04:50):
You'd kind of go to each other's homes to study together or?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:04:55):
No, no.
Lisette Shashoua (01:04:57):
You each studied on your own?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:04:58):
We each studied our own, yeah.
Lisette Shashoua (01:05:05):
Yeah. You came to paradise-
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:05:07):
We came, yes. Yes, exactly. Para-, freedom equals paradise, and this is what exactly what my parents were looking for. There was, because, you know, when you talked in the streets in, in Cairo, I remember my father always, you know, looking behind, who's behind you, who's listening. You couldn't talk in a public place. And at home, you, you know, you kept the shutters down if you wanted to listen to the radio or have a discussion so people don't see that you're gathered then discussing things. So, you know, all of these things put together, the fear, the constant fear, we never knew if the door wasn't going to, the be-, the doorbell wasn't going to ring in the middle of the night.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:05:50):
And we kept on hearing neighbours, family, they came in the middle of the night for no reason, not even to arrest you, just to harass you. They would, they did that to the neighbours of ours. They would ring the doorbell in the middle of the night and they would come.
Lisette Shashoua (01:06:06):
The only time?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:06:07):
That's right. And what do they want? "What's your name? How many people in the family? Okay, bye."
Lisette Shashoua (01:06:15):
Without the arrest?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:06:16):
Well, there were some arrests, but in some cases, it was just plain harassment.
Lisette Shashoua (01:06:21):
And it's always from the government or is it other, maybe people who just wanted to harass the Jews?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:06:29):
No, no, it was always from the government. It was always from the government, we never felt, uh, any, uh, discrimination from the people themselves, from our neighbours, from our coworkers, from my father's side, from my, uh, students, um, student friends, we never felt discrimination as Jews.
Lisette Shashoua (01:06:54):
But your dad was discriminated against at work?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:06:58):
But not, definitely, but not from, as a coworker, it was, he was discriminated in the sense that he was demoted and he had to teach. But the other, his other coworkers did not have anything against him because he was a Jew. They had to accept the orders and the orders were no Jews were go-, was going to have, to hold a high position.
Lisette Shashoua (01:07:26):
Oh, that's from NASA. That's from the government.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:07:29):
Yes.
Lisette Shashoua (01:07:29):
Not from the bank.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:07:31):
Well, the bank did it, but then the, uh, it was-
Lisette Shashoua (01:07:37):
The orders came from the government?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:07:39):
The orders came from the government, of course, of course, the banks did it because they were a separate entity but the orders had to come from the government.
Lisette Shashoua (01:07:48):
Okay, I thought-
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:07:49):
It's not from the bank itself, no, no.
Lisette Shashoua (01:07:52):
Okay, okay, okay.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:07:53):
The banks were very happy to have Jews and foreigners because they were hard workers. They could speak many languages and they were very good in finances. The banks were very happy to keep them, but they couldn't.
Lisette Shashoua (01:08:07):
Okay. Okay. Yeah. That's very important, this difference.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:08:12):
Yes, yes. I'm sorry, maybe I didn't make it clear enough.
Lisette Shashoua (01:08:15):
No, no it's, it's, it's very subtle.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:08:18):
Yes.
Lisette Shashoua (01:08:19):
Yeah. Okay. So did your mom try to work here?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:08:25):
Yes. Um, my, not at first, my mom was caring for my grandparents.
Lisette Shashoua (01:08:31):
How old were your parents? Or your grandparents were how old? By the time they got here?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:08:37):
My grandparents were probably, uh, probably in their late 60s, early 70s when we left Egypt.
Lisette Shashoua (01:08:46):
They were young still?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:08:47):
Yeah. Yeah, they weren't old, um.
Lisette Shashoua (01:08:50):
And your parents?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:08:52):
And my parents, well, um, 1960 [inaudible 01:08:56], my parents were in their late 40s.
Lisette Shashoua (01:09:03):
Very good.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:09:04):
Yeah, yeah.
Lisette Shashoua (01:09:05):
So tell me, your mom, your, your, your pa-, your grandparents did not work?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:09:09):
No, def-, definitely not. My-
Lisette Shashoua (01:09:10):
What they do in Egypt? Your grandfather, what did he do in Egypt?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:09:16):
Um, I don't-
Lisette Shashoua (01:09:17):
He also didn't work, right?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:09:19):
My grandfather worked before I was born because all my recollections were of him at home.
Lisette Shashoua (01:09:27):
Yeah.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:09:29):
So my father was the, uh, the breadwinner, the only breadwinner. And even when we came here, he was the only breadwinner. So my mother wasn't working, she was at home and my grandparents' health weren't, wasn't too great. So she took care of them. And then slowly, slowly until they passed away. And then she wanted, she wanted the job. She wanted to get out of the house. She was getting modernized. It was not Egypt anymore. So she went to work as a sales person at a store called Wise, it was like Zeller's type of store.
Lisette Shashoua (01:10:10):
Yeah.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:10:10):
So she went to work as a sales person. And for her, it was like the end of the world. She was out, she was working, she was earning money. So that was her job, she worked there for a few years and then she, she stopped.
Lisette Shashoua (01:10:27):
And your parents are still alive?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:10:29):
No, both my parents, uh, passed away two months apart. Um, um, yeah, eight years ago my mother went-
Lisette Shashoua (01:10:40):
Were they sick or?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:10:41):
No, uh, my father had had a stroke, but he lived 10 years half paralyzed. His left side was paralyzed and my mother was taking care of him the whole time. And then my mother got sick, she got cancer. And, uh, she was in remission. She went through all the treatments. She was in remission for a while. And then she, it came back, she had lymphoma and it came back in the brain. So within, uh, four weeks she was gone. And I think my father just couldn't take the pain.
Lisette Shashoua (01:11:23):
That's sad.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:11:25):
He couldn't take the hurt of being without her.
Lisette Shashoua (01:11:29):
That's a love story.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:11:30):
It is, it is, my story is a happy one. I always say this, it was a potential being dramatic and, um, when I was a child in Egypt, but everything turned out all right. And I'm one of the very, very lucky ones with a very happy childhood, very happy life.
Lisette Shashoua (01:11:51):
Tell me about you. I mean, when did you meet your husband? When did you get married?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:11:58):
My husband is 10 years older than I am. And strangely enough, we went to the same school in Egypt. His background is different. He is from Eastern European background. His mother left Poland, she, she's Po-, she was Polish. She left Poland just before World War Two and, to go visit some family within Egypt. And she got word from her mother, "Stay where you are, things are not going well in Europe." She stayed where she is, lucky because the rest of the family were all exterminated. Everybody was gone except for two sisters who were left.
Lisette Shashoua (01:12:41):
What happened to the sisters? I mean, were they-
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:12:43):
They were, they were saved by, one was saved by a Russian general. Um, and one was saved by a German who thought she wasn't Jewish one of them, because she was blonde and had green eyes. He thought she wasn't Jewish, so he took her in as his secretary. So she was working for another maybe general, somebody in, uh, in Ger-, in, they took in, um, in Poland because they had offices everywhere.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:13:21):
The other one was saved by a Russian, um, by a Russian, I believe was a general who took her in to work, I, I'm not sure of the exact, um, uh, steps that went forward, but all I know is that he said that she was his secretary and she had to be there because she knew a lot of the, the secrets. And she knew a lot of what was going on, she was very valuable for the Russians. And so he negotiated with the Germans, exactly I'm not sure. So she was saved by him and act-
Lisette Shashoua (01:14:02):
Did he fall in love with her? Is that why?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:14:03):
No, no, he didn't, he didn't. And the one who-
Lisette Shashoua (01:14:10):
And He knew she was Jewish?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:14:11):
He knew she was Jewish. The one who didn't know she was Jewish, found out, uh, the German fund out. And he was a, her luck, a Jew lover. He found out and he accepted her and he said, "I will save you." And this general, I forget the name, but about 10 years ago, his name was added to, in Israel to the, um, the Righteous of all Nations. He apparently saved a lot of Jews in his capacity of general, of, you know, higher in the government. He saved not only her, but he saved a lot of Jews.
Lisette Shashoua (01:14:52):
Did, uh, was he alive when he was acknowledged?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:14:55):
No, he wasn't alive anymore.
Lisette Shashoua (01:14:57):
Too bad, that's, uh-
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:14:59):
That's too bad, yeah.
Lisette Shashoua (01:14:59):
What an amazing collage you have?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:15:04):
Yes.
Lisette Shashoua (01:15:05):
Okay, continue-
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:15:06):
So, um, my mother-in-law stayed in Egypt and she met my father-in-law, who was there from, it was the second generation. They're also from Europe, from Poland and, from Poland and, um, Romania. So they married there, they lived there. Uh, my husband was born there. And then, uh, when, it was in '56, when problems really started to arise in, in Egypt, she was terrified because of what had happened to her family in Europe. So she s-, run away from Egypt with her son until her husband prepared and did all the papers. She went to Italy, they lived in Italy until my father-in-law got all the papers done. And he went to meet them in Italy.
Lisette Shashoua (01:16:07):
How did they get away? What passport did they have?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:16:09):
They had, um-
Lisette Shashoua (01:16:11):
They were foreigners.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:16:12):
Yeah, my, my, my father-in-law had, I think, I, I'm not sure what kind of European passport, I'm not sure which one. And he managed to get away with that passport, but I don't remember which one exactly it was.
Lisette Shashoua (01:16:29):
So they met in Italy. What year was that now?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:16:32):
So that was in '56. So they left Egypt-
Lisette Shashoua (01:16:36):
After [inaudible 01:16:36].
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:16:36):
That's right. That's right. So they went to, to Italy for a while. Then they went here, they came here because there was an uncle of my, um, my husband who was here and who made them come. And this is where he grew up, he was an only child. Um, my mother-in-law, she would always tell me she was terrified to have another child, that something would happen in the world that would disturb or would kill her other child. So she said she would not give birth to another child.
Lisette Shashoua (01:17:11):
So how did you meet and where?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:17:15):
So, so I started to say, so we went to the same school in Egypt, but being 10 years different, he was in a mixed class and I was an only girls class because when you got to a certain level, they were, had mixed classes. And you went to a different building. The building were, um, were adjoining each other, but in a different building. So he always says, he says, you know, I wouldn't even look at her, she was one of the little ones. And coincidentally enough, it was a friend, a mutual friend of my parents and his parents who said to my parents, um, "Is Rosie married? And they said, no. "I know of someone." And he introduced us to someone I wasn't interested at first because I was going out with somebody else. But then I-
Lisette Shashoua (01:18:10):
How old were you?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:18:11):
I was, uh, 23 years old. And then I got interested and we were married within six, uh, we got, we met June 1st. We were married November 30th.
Lisette Shashoua (01:18:24):
Okay.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:18:26):
Five months later. And we've been married since 1975.
Lisette Shashoua (01:18:32):
Wonderful. And children?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:18:34):
We have one daughter.
Lisette Shashoua (01:18:36):
Where is she?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:18:37):
She's here. She lives, she's in Montreal and she lives with us.
Lisette Shashoua (01:18:40):
Oh, is she married?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:18:42):
No, she's not married. No, no, she's, she's only 27 years old. We had her many, many, many years after we were married. But, um, so she's still here and she still lives at home and, and she's happy. (laughs).
Lisette Shashoua (01:18:58):
Lovely. Wonderful.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:19:00):
Yeah. Yeah.
Lisette Shashoua (01:19:01):
So Montreal, uh, opened a lot of doors?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:19:07):
Opened to a lot of doors for us. They opened a lot of doors to my father who was able to thrive in the banking industry. And he was able to go up the ladder until he was again, um, the manager of a foreign, foreign currency here at the CIBC on Peel. So it opened that door and made him feel good because he was able to, to grow in his indus-, in his, uh, in his field. Uh, it opened doors in the sense that my brother and I were free, my brother went to university, I went to university. We were both free to study what we wanted to study. So really, it was a, a very difficult time for my parents to pack up and go. Um, but in the end, it was a very happy ending, very happy?
Lisette Shashoua (01:20:05):
What did you study [inaudible 01:20:06]?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:20:07):
I studied, I did a double major, uh, psychology and education.
Lisette Shashoua (01:20:10):
Wow.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:20:12):
Yeah.
Lisette Shashoua (01:20:13):
And you, you worked?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:20:15):
Yes. Yes. I worked in education for good part of my life. I was, um, I was, um, working for the Institute of Bankers, it was the Independent Institute of bankers and I was a registrar there for, for a long time. And then I decided to leave completely and just [inaudible 01:20:38], do a 360 degrees and I went into real estate. So I worked in real estate for, for a few years, I was an agent, then I was a manager for a few years and I was director of, um, relocation departments for the national defense. And, um, and Canadian...
PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [01:21:04]
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:21:03):
... National Defense and, um, and Canadian government for Quebec and, um, and the Maritimes.
Lisette Shashoua (01:21:10):
What does relocation-
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:21:11):
Uh, relocation, we, people in government who are relocated from one city to another, you know.
Lisette Shashoua (01:21:17):
Yes.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:21:18):
They, uh, so they go through, uh, our company. I was part of the Royal LePage and they go through our relocation department to handle all the sales and the purchases of their, if they go to another state, of their property.
Lisette Shashoua (01:21:33):
Wow.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:21:34):
So all the real estate transactions. So my job was to evaluate the properties, to set up a marketing, um, uh, program for that, uh, and assign an agent to that property. Make sure it was sold, if it wasn't sold, we bought it. So we had to, to buy it and take, take over and do all the legal paperwork. So that's what I was doing for, because government employees are transferred all the time and even more, the defense, National Defense. They're transferred like every two years, they're transferred from, either from in Canada or from Canada to Europe.
Lisette Shashoua (01:22:16):
And you still take care of their relocation?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:22:18):
Yes, absolutely.
Lisette Shashoua (01:22:19):
And you get, take care of getting them a place?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:22:22):
No, not at, when it was Europe, no. When it was within Canada, yes. But in Europe, no, we didn't take care.
Lisette Shashoua (01:22:28):
So when, when, when they're going to Europe, you relocate, you, you take care of their property here?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:22:34):
Yeah.
Lisette Shashoua (01:22:34):
And there, they get somebody else-
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:22:36):
That's right.
Lisette Shashoua (01:22:38):
... who does it?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:22:38):
That's right. They do whatever they want to do over there.
Lisette Shashoua (01:22:41):
Yeah.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:22:41):
Yeah.
Lisette Shashoua (01:22:42):
Or they have somebody do it for them?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:22:43):
Or they have somebody do it.
Lisette Shashoua (01:22:44):
Yeah.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:22:45):
So I did that for a while and then, um, and then I, I stopped working for about a year and a half. And at the time-
Lisette Shashoua (01:22:55):
What year was that?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:22:57):
That was in 190-, um, 1995, '96, about, yeah, but '96, '96, '97. And then my husband had a company where, uh, by he would, uh, offer French courses or English courses in companies. Uh, so he was corporate, he had corporate clients, so he was always looking for teachers. And then I said, "Well, maybe I will teach." And because I was able to teach, I, so I taught a few French classes. So I thought at the, um, um, at the hospital, um, a rehabilitation hospital in the west end, I forget the name. But, um, and I taught, it was a Japanese company that needed French for their employees, I taught there as well. So I did that.
Lisette Shashoua (01:23:57):
For a year?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:23:58):
No, I did that whenever he needed, on and off whenever he needed, if he couldn't find a teacher because he had different teachers for different, um, different corporations. Um, and then I decided again, to, to change. And I said, well, in my old age, I'm going to do something very different. So I decided to go into business. So now I own an important business and I important jewelry.
Lisette Shashoua (01:24:25):
Real jewelry?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:24:27):
Uh, costume jewelry, stainless steel jewelry. So it's small, I, I started it, uh, eight years ago and, um, just to have fun because I love it. And because I love people and I have a couple of salespeople who go around the province to sell the jewelry. And that's what I'm doing right now. So this is my career story, career change story.
Lisette Shashoua (01:24:53):
And your husband did the same job or [inaudible 01:24:58]?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:24:58):
No. My husband, um, taught, uh, he has his, um, he has his master's in, um, French literature. He did it in California at UCLA. So he came here and he started to do his PhD and he taught, he taught, uh, Concordia and he taught University du Montreal. And then he taught high schools. And then he started working for the Jewish school for the Talmud Torah Jewish Schools. And he, uh, set up the French department when the [French 01:25:41] came, they needed the, the school system desperately needed a real French department. So he set up the French department for Talmud Torah, the French department that is currently functioning so well. And some of the teachers that he hired are still there. I see them sometimes-
Lisette Shashoua (01:25:59):
Wow.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:25:59):
... walking in the street with the kids.
Lisette Shashoua (01:26:01):
That's wonderful.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:26:02):
Yeah. So he did that for, and then he opened his own company and he was teaching, he had corporate clients. He was teaching French as a second language. So it was mainly, it was mainly, um, in the education business, in different levels of the education system.
Lisette Shashoua (01:26:21):
So both families contributed a lot to this country and group?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:26:29):
I think so. I think so, from my husband's family, his aunt and uncle, his aunt had a business with many stores in Montreal, a good flourishing business, and he employed a lot of people. Um, so he did contribute to the Canadian society for sure. Um, we do, my and myself, I'm involved in a lot of, uh, organizations, I'm involved with the, uh, Sephardi Community, CSUQ, Communauté Sépharade Unifiée du Québec. I'm president of the Association of Jews from Egypt. I'm very active at my synagogue. So I, I do believe that I am contributing, con-, contributing to Canadian and Quebec society. Yes.
Lisette Shashoua (01:27:27):
Of course, by teaching French.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:27:28):
And my husband definitely is by teaching French.
Lisette Shashoua (01:27:32):
And weren't you the antiques at some point?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:27:36):
Okay. My husband, uh, as a s-, as a, as a side business, if you want, my husband was a collector of Intuit Art, and he was a very avid collector for many, many years. And all of a sudden, there were too many, too many sculptures and prints for our house. So, um, I said, we got to do something, you know, we can breathe. There's more sculptures than human beings in this house, something has got to happen. So he says, "Okay, I'm going to start selling them."
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:28:10):
So as his side business, as a passion, if you wish, uh, he started selling in with art. So he has a website, he sells it on the website. He sold on eBay. He has clients from, who come to Montreal, from Germany. He has futile German clients, German, German, people love in with art. And he has clients from England who come to Montreal as well. And of course, US clients, US come all the time to, to buy and to look at, uh, so that's what he does now. He, uh, now that he's retired from his teaching, that's what he does. He continues on his passion and that's his love.
Lisette Shashoua (01:28:52):
And they come to the house-
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:28:54):
They come to the house. Yes.
Lisette Shashoua (01:28:56):
And he's still working with that?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:28:58):
With that, yeah.
Lisette Shashoua (01:29:00):
Wonderful.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:29:00):
Yeah. Yeah. It keeps him busy and it keeps him, it keeps him alive because he loves it.
Lisette Shashoua (01:29:06):
Wonderful. We're going to come now to some reflections to the end of, you know, um, the question here is, do you preserve your Sephardi heritage, traditions, celebrations, pray-, prayers, full language, et cetera?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:29:24):
Absolutely. Absolutely. Although in Egypt, there was really not that much of a difference. We did not make that much of a difference between Ashkenazim and Sephardic Jews, we were Jews, the synagogue, where we went, Shaar Hashomayim was originally what you would call here an Ashkenazi Jew, uh, synagogue. But we really did not pay very much attention. However, um, my parents always spoke to us about our ancestries, about our Sephardic background.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:30:03):
I grew up with Sephardic traditions, with Sephardic food. When we came here, we went to Sephardic synagogues. Um, so that has grown with me, I still believe we're all Jews. And I will love you just as much if you are Ashkenazi or Sephardic. But I am Sephardic, I consider myself Sephardic. I am raising my daughter in a Sephardic environment, and I'm proud of it. We are distinct, we are different, the Sephardic Jews whether you want it or not, we're different. We our customs are different, or prayers are different. And this is what I know, this is what I grew up with.
Lisette Shashoua (01:30:49):
Okay. And the most important part of your Sephardic background to you is?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:31:01):
Uh, the most important part is the prayers, the way we pray and the customs.
Lisette Shashoua (01:31:08):
The tradition?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:31:09):
The tradition, the tradition which I would love to keep. And I would love my daughter to keep and her family to keep.
Lisette Shashoua (01:31:18):
What about the food?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:31:19):
Oh, the food, for sure. Although, my husband is Ashkenazi and I've learned from my mother-in-law to make a lot of Ashkenazi meals as well. So there's a mixture of both, but needless to say, my husband way prefers the Ashke-, the, uh, Sephardic foods.
Lisette Shashoua (01:31:38):
It's tasty.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:31:38):
Than what he, what he grew up with. Yes.
Lisette Shashoua (01:31:42):
Um, how would you describe yourself in terms of your identity, Jewish, Canadian?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:31:51):
I'm, I am Jewish first. Okay, that's, this is always the question. Um, is, is being Jewish a religion or is it a culture or is it a, uh, what is it exactly? Or nationality? I consider myself Jew. I am a Jew that's first and foremost, and then I'm Canadian. So if you're asking me, I will tell you I'm Jewish. And then I will tell you I'm Canadian, because for me being Jewish is so important. And to keep that Jewishness in me is so important, um, that I will always be a Jew, no matter where I live.
Lisette Shashoua (01:32:31):
And a Canadian.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:32:32):
And a Canadian. Absolutely.
Lisette Shashoua (01:32:36):
Do you consider yourself a refugee or a migrant?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:32:40):
Okay. Our family, we are migrants, but a lot, a lot, out of the 80,000 Jews that left from Egypt, I would, 90% of them are refugees. They were kicked out with no money. They had no belonging, no personal belongings, no nationality, no passport. Um, yes, they're refugees. And the ones within, whom would not consider themselves refugees were in a way, because although they left on their own accord, they left for a reason and they weren't going to leave if conditions were different. So they had to leave, even though they left on their own accord, like I, my, our family, we left on our own accord, nobody told us take, you know, take the plane and leave. But we left because conditions were unbearable. So yes, I would consider Jews from Egypt in a lot of Arab land as refugees. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Lisette Shashoua (01:33:53):
Where do you consider home?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:33:55):
Montreal.
Lisette Shashoua (01:33:57):
What identity do you want to pass on to your daughter?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:34:02):
I want to pass on that Canadian identity, of course, but that Jewish identity, that's, um, identity to belonging. First of all, I'm a Zionist and I will always be a Zionist, I'm, I love Israel and I would do anything for Israel. My mother's family, as I said lives in Israel, all my cousins are there. I go visit on a regular basis. My heart is in Israel, I feel very strongly. So I would like to pass this love for Israel onto my, my daughter and other generations. Because with the way antisemitism is growing in the world, we only have one place where we are safe. It's our place, it's our line, and that's Israel. And one, I think, and no Jewish would forget that.
Lisette Shashoua (01:34:59):
What language did you speak to your daughter, or do you speak to her now?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:35:03):
French and English. Both French and English. She also was educated in English. Um, she went to Talmud Torah in the elementary school, she went to Trafalgar in, um, for, uh, for high school. She went to Vanier, she went to an English college after that. So she's educated in English, she is more fluent in English than French, but I speak to her in French.
Lisette Shashoua (01:35:28):
Well, I forgot to ask you, when you were at home in, in Egypt, you spoke French and Arabic there?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:35:34):
No, we never spoke Arabic at home, never. We spoke French and Ladino.
Lisette Shashoua (01:35:41):
[inaudible 01:35:41].
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:35:43):
So I would turn to my grandparents and speak to them in, in Spanish. And then I would turn to my mother and speak to her in French. And my father, I mean, we would all do the same thing, with my grandparents, we would speak Ladino. And with my father, I would speak French, my mother, French, my brother, we all, we spoke only French.
Lisette Shashoua (01:36:03):
And between you now with your brother?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:36:04):
French.
Lisette Shashoua (01:36:05):
Okay. [French 01:36:06].
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:36:06):
[French 01:36:06] French. Uh, we never spoke Arabic at home, no.
Lisette Shashoua (01:36:12):
And, uh, does your daughter's peak in Hebrew? Did she learn it?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:36:16):
Yes, yes, of course, she does. She learned at, uh, when she was in elementary school. So she does all the prayers and she s-, she speaks Hebrew, not very fluently unfortunately. But when she goes to Israel, she's also, I think some of my love for Israel has rubbed off onto her because she also goes to Israel regularly and she spends longer periods of time. She'd spent like three weeks a month. And so she speaks Hebrew there. She practices and she speaks Hebrew. She does not want to lose it.
Lisette Shashoua (01:36:47):
What about you?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:36:48):
Uh, I speak Hebrew, uh, but very quite limited. My vocabulary is very limited. I had to learn because I had to speak with my family who is in Israel who could not speak, especially my cousins, my aunts and uncles, yeah. My cousins, I had to learn to speak to them in a language that we both understood, and that was, was Hebrew book, I learned Hebrew through that way.
Lisette Shashoua (01:37:12):
So you speak how many languages?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:37:14):
I speak French, English, a limited Hebrew, uh, Ladino and I learned Spanish. When I was here because I was illiterate in, uh, in Spanish, we spoke Ladino, which is not really Spanish. And I was illiterate, I didn't know how to write a read, I knew how to speak with my grandparents. So I went to school at university, I took a few Spanish courses, so I speak Spanish as well.
Lisette Shashoua (01:37:44):
How is your Arabic?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:37:45):
Not very good.
Lisette Shashoua (01:37:47):
But you understand and you can talk to, uh, an Arab or, or an Egyptian.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:37:52):
Uh, I understand, my understanding is limited. My speech is even more limited, unfortunately. I mean, I will know, I know some expressions, I will say few words, but if you asked me to converse with you, I will not be able to.
Lisette Shashoua (01:38:09):
Um, what impact did this refugee migration experience have on your life?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:38:17):
Uh, you know, it had, it had an impact in the sense that I always think that complacency is not ideal. We were complacent, we were happy, we were comfortable, but that had to end. So for me, I always think don't be too comfortable because you never know when you're going to have to flee. So that's, it's a feeling is not very positive, but it stuck with me. This is the impact this had on me, is that complacency is not ideal.
Lisette Shashoua (01:38:58):
That's how you feel now as well?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:38:59):
That's how I feel now, at certain times, that's how I feel now. Although with age, I have, you know, learned and philosophized, then learned that life is not exactly what happened in Egypt. Life is different and pla-, the, the role of the Jews are different outside of Arab countries, et cetera. So now it's a lot different, but this was the impact that had for many, many years.
Lisette Shashoua (01:39:27):
What about the growing antisemitism?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:39:30):
The growing antisemitism is so frightening to me, so frightening because I always wonder what's next. Uh, we know after the Holocaust, never again, we always say that sentence, never again. But when you see what is going on, the growing antisemitism around the world, be it Europe, Africa, North America, it's a very frightening thing, very frightening. And we say, we have to be alert, we have to fight back. We have to, we have to keep our ears and eyes open because you never know what can happen. [crosstalk 01:40:15]. Exactly, exactly. It's still there even though it's subliminal, but it's still there.
Lisette Shashoua (01:40:23):
It's not subliminal.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:40:24):
Yeah.
Lisette Shashoua (01:40:25):
And it shouldn't be.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:40:27):
Yeah.
Lisette Shashoua (01:40:30):
Okay. There's a question here. Would you think your life would've been different if you hadn't left? (laughs)
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:40:36):
Oh my goodness, yes.
Lisette Shashoua (01:40:39):
That's a crazy question.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:40:41):
Yes. Very, very different. I don't think, I don't think I'd be educated. I don't think I feel the way I feel as far as freedom of expression is concerned. Freedom of religion is concerned. Yes, definitely. My family would probably not have lived as long as they've lived if things had been different, if we had stayed behind.
Lisette Shashoua (01:41:04):
Um, have you ever gone back?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:41:06):
Never.
Lisette Shashoua (01:41:07):
You never visited?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:41:09):
Never visited.
Lisette Shashoua (01:41:09):
Would you have liked to?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:41:10):
I would have loved to. I would have loved to. I was always very fearful of going back. My parents didn't want to go back, so that was out of the question. My father said, Egypt is gone for me. I d-, he didn't want to hear about it, he didn't want to talk about it. For him, it was just a past life type of thing. So it had to be me or myself when I was single or with my husband. I thought, we thought a few times we were going to go at one point when the borders were open with Israel. And so many Israelis were going to visit Egypt. We were s-, we were thinking at the time and then Sadat was assassinated not long after that. And things started deteriorating, and I was just too afraid. I was too afraid of going back. I know people who have gone back up to six, seven years ago, but I personally was too afraid.
Lisette Shashoua (01:42:12):
Understandable.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:42:13):
Yeah.
Lisette Shashoua (01:42:14):
Uh, last question, what message would you like to give to anyone who might listen to this interview?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:42:23):
The lesson that's there, there are refugees, a lot, a high number of refugees from Arab land. We were very quiet up to not too long ago. We did not want to share stories, it was our stories. We came to a new country, we built a new life and our other life was just behind us. Uh, but this is wrong, we have to speak up. Our children, our grandchildren have to know that there was a flourishing Jewish community in Arab countries. There was a super rich community in, in Egypt.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:43:10):
Rich, not only in terms of money, but rich in terms of values, in terms of, um, anything that you can think of, this must not be forgotten. And again, we have to, I would like people to listen to this interview to learn about what life was, and never, never to forget that Jews were living in this land that now is not ours at all, anymore.
Lisette Shashoua (01:43:44):
Thank you very much for this, uh, illuminating interview. Thank you for participating with Sephardi Voices. And I was wondering, you do have pictures, uh, archival you brought with you?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:44:00):
I have, yes. I've brought some pictures.
Lisette Shashoua (01:44:02):
Good.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:44:02):
Um, they're not, they're not the best. There's some very small or, but it's for, whoever's going to decide, to decide whether they want to use them or not.
Lisette Shashoua (01:44:12):
Document, papers or, or any heirlooms?
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:44:17):
Uh, no, but for the documents, I will bring you if I can have a contact, I will bring documents. No, I didn't think about documents. I do have some of my father's documents, yes.
Lisette Shashoua (01:44:33):
Interesting.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:44:34):
Yes, I do. I have his [Foreign language 01:44:36]. Actually, my parents [foreign language 01:44:38] from Egypt.
Lisette Shashoua (01:44:39):
That's fantastic.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:44:41):
Yes, I have to-
Lisette Shashoua (01:44:43):
Thank you. Thank you very much.
Rose Simon Schwartz (01:44:46):
My pleasure.
PART 4 OF 4 ENDS [01:45:10]