Noemi Lieberman
Cleaned by: Julia Pappo
Transcribed by: Rev
Interview date: November 23rd, 2018 Interviewer: Henry Green
Location: Toronto
Total time: 1:11:26
Noemi Lieberman: Born February 29th, 1936 in Tripoli, Libya. Arrived in Tunis in 1947. Arrived in Genazzano in 1948. Arrived in Israel in 1948. Arrived in Toronto in 1957.
Henry Green (00:00:13):
What is your full name?
Noemi Lieberman (00:00:15):
Naoemi Lieberman.
Henry Green (00:00:17):
And, uh, what is your name at birth?
Noemi Lieberman (00:00:21):
Uh, Noemi Habib.
Henry Green (00:00:22):
And when were you born?
Noemi Lieberman (00:00:24):
I was born in 1936, on the 29th day of February.
Henry Green (00:00:32):
And, uh, where were you born?
Noemi Lieberman (00:00:33):
In Tripoli, Libya.
Henry Green (00:00:35):
So I want to begin by just saying how much we appreciate you taking the time to be interviewed for Sephardi Voices.
Noemi Lieberman (00:00:42):
I thank you sir. It's my pleasure and my honor.
Henry Green (00:00:46):
So we- let's open with a very sort of broad question. Tell me something about your, your grandparents, your- your f- your family history background. You know?
Noemi Lieberman (00:00:56):
Uh, where would I start? My grandfather was a apparently a businessman, he had a ranch, he had workers, he had people that looked after his horses, and he also had the little factory, uh, I think they made cheese. And, uh, it was a very, like, if you think of it today, very big. You're very, but, uh, that's how I remember is that he was always busy and there were a lot of people around us in his ranch.
Henry Green (00:01:30):
And this is your father's father?
Noemi Lieberman (00:01:32):
My mother's father.
Henry Green (00:01:34):
And what was his name?
Noemi Lieberman (00:01:35):
Vittorio Habib.
Henry Green (00:01:39):
Vittorio Habib. And your grandmother's name?
Noemi Lieberman (00:01:41):
Nina.
Henry Green (00:01:42):
Nina.
Noemi Lieberman (00:01:42):
I was named after Nina so they called me Noemi.
Henry Green (00:01:45):
Noemi. Um, so they, uh, Vittorio. So is he Italian?
Noemi Lieberman (00:01:50):
Vittorio.
Henry Green (00:01:52):
Vittorio. He was Italian?
Noemi Lieberman (00:01:54):
Uh, he was born [Hwatu 00:01:57] which is the Arabic word for Vittorio, but when Mussolini came in 1911 I think it was that the Italians came and the, uh, the, um, people try to integrate with their new neighbors and new friends. So we all changed names to Italian names.
Henry Green (00:02:22):
And your grandmother, did she have in Italian and Arabic name too?
Noemi Lieberman (00:02:27):
No, my grandmother was born Nina and she died Nina. But it just happened to be a name that probably fitted the situation.
Henry Green (00:02:37):
And your father's parents?
Noemi Lieberman (00:02:38):
Uh, my father's parents, uh, uh, all I know is that they were of, uh, French origin. They came to Tripoli for some reason the beginning of the century. My father was born in Tripoli, but we were always known to be French subjects.
Henry Green (00:03:01):
So you carried a French- your parents carried French citizenship?
Noemi Lieberman (00:03:05):
I have no idea about citizenship, but we found that out before we left. The thing is that we were always involved in the Alliance schools, in the little parties, in the [foreign language 00:03:19] day, in all the French events we were involved, invited, we took part. But then when we had to leave the country, that's where it made clear to me, it was made clear to me.
Henry Green (00:03:36):
Do you have memories of your father's parents or your mother's parents?
Noemi Lieberman (00:03:42):
I never knew my father's parents. My father was, uh, there must have been I think we heard about a disease that came to and they both died within the year and he was an orphan at a very young age. I shouldn't say very young, but he was in his 20's. And then a few years later, he was introduced to my mother, uh, [foreign language 00:04:08] the way we say it. So he became a part of the family and my grandfather decided he is good for Rosa, so there.
Henry Green (00:04:18):
And, um, was, we- were your parents cousins?
Noemi Lieberman (00:04:22):
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Arbib and Habib seemed to be a little close in spelling, but no relation whatsoever.
Henry Green (00:04:30):
And you do have memories of your mother's parents on the other [crosstalk 00:04:34]?
Noemi Lieberman (00:04:34):
Oh yes. My mother's parents were alive and well all the way to Israel, to [Hadar Yosef 00:04:41]. Uh, my grandmother died of a stroke. I think the last couple of years she was very hard at speaking, but my grandfather lived to be over 90, 91 or 92 and I was already in Canada when my grandma father died.
Henry Green (00:05:01):
So if we go back to Tripoli and Libya, did they- did the, you- you lived in Tripoli, did your grandparents live in Tripoli close to you?
Noemi Lieberman (00:05:09):
Oh yes, we were all very close to each other. And as the years passed by, and every one of the women of the girls, my mother's sisters, she had seven sisters, uh, they were all married and they all had their own homes and their own children. But we still congregated in that ranch that brought all the, um, childhood memories to me every time we go there.
Henry Green (00:05:37):
So did you sleep there at all? Do you remember sleeping on the ranch?
Noemi Lieberman (00:05:40):
Oh yeah, sure. We sometimes stayed weeks.
Henry Green (00:05:43):
And did your grandmother, um, uh, tell stories to you? Or did she cook for you?
Noemi Lieberman (00:05:49):
Yes, my grandmother, like I said, they always had workers, they always had people looking after things. Yes, my grandmother was the best hostess, but I don't know who did the cooking. I think she had three or four women around her because the cooking was made for 20 or 30 people or 15 or 12 or whatever the case may be, was a big, big family place and the worker's families, I think there were at least two that I remember that also lived on the ranch because they looked after things that need to be, uh-
Henry Green (00:06:27):
So, so what stories do you remember of you and your grandmother just sort of connecting in some way? Anything special in some way that you remember?
Noemi Lieberman (00:06:37):
Uh, I remember looking at her, she was a very big woman and I remember always looking up at her and I was named after her, so to me it was a majestic thing. Here is the lady I'm named after, but I think in those times, we didn't hug and kiss and called each other I love you, I love you, I love you, but I could feel that she was the woman that I have to stand, uh, uh, you know, bu- uh, to- to make her proud of me. And unfortunately I was very young when I left Tripoli so, uh, and then through the years by the time we met in Israel, it was an entirely different story.
Henry Green (00:07:25):
Your- your father, what kind of occupation did he do?
Noemi Lieberman (00:07:29):
Uh, he was a ragioniere which is a chartered accountant I think you call it, yes. He looked at numbers, he worked for a big company, construction company, he was always on the go. Uh, it was called Lunati construction or whatever, builders, whatever.
Henry Green (00:07:48):
Italian company?
Noemi Lieberman (00:07:49):
Italian company yes, and everything was done in Italian from Tripoli headquarter was Tripoli.
Henry Green (00:07:57):
And your mother?
Noemi Lieberman (00:07:58):
My mom was a mother, a housewife, a hugger, kisser, best cook I ever met.
Henry Green (00:08:05):
And what was your mother's name?
Noemi Lieberman (00:08:07):
Rosa.
Henry Green (00:08:08):
And your father's?
Noemi Lieberman (00:08:08):
Chaul.
Henry Green (00:08:08):
Chaul. So tell me something about life, um, at home. You- what was your home life in Tripoli? Was it in the mela? Was it outside? Where were your home? Was there a mela? I don't know. Was there a s- a Jewish area?
Noemi Lieberman (00:08:27):
Not that I can remember. We lived in a, um, in a- in a building that we had to go up to the, uh, Quartopiano which is the fourth floor. Fourth floor seemed to be very, very, very high. So when we needed a little fresh air and we went up to the roof, and they asked my father, "Why would you want to go on the roof?" He says, "To be close to God." And that was the fifth floor. Can you imagine how high that is? But it was one of the tallest buildings in Tripoli then. It was called Upim. Uh, it's some kind of a company that named that building.
Henry Green (00:09:13):
The, your- it was- did you rent the apartment or the- the-
Noemi Lieberman (00:09:17):
Oh yes, it was rental. Definitely. We did not have, we did not own it.
Henry Green (00:09:22):
And you had, uh, you have brothers and sisters?
Noemi Lieberman (00:09:25):
Yes. We ended up in Israel six, but we left Tripoli we were five brothers and sisters and then two were born in Israel and one perished.
Henry Green (00:09:38):
So let's talk about the ones in Tripoli. So you- you said you were born in 1936.
Noemi Lieberman (00:09:43):
36.
Henry Green (00:09:43):
So do you have an older brother or sister?
Noemi Lieberman (00:09:47):
Uh, yes. My sister Mirella, Miriam was born before me, 1933. The brother after me was born in 1939 and then Ariel was born in '44 and Kaim was born in '47 I think. Uh, he was 10 months old when we left Tripoli. So that was the baby that my mother carried.
Henry Green (00:10:15):
So, uh, this family of five plus your parents.
Noemi Lieberman (00:10:19):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Henry Green (00:10:19):
Are seven living in this apartment? In this house-
Noemi Lieberman (00:10:23):
Yes.
Henry Green (00:10:24):
On the fourth floor.
Noemi Lieberman (00:10:24):
Yes.
Henry Green (00:10:25):
And do you remember what your bedroom looked like?
Noemi Lieberman (00:10:28):
Oh yes. Uh, we all slept in one bedroom. Mom and dad in another bedroom. I mean, you know, all three of us, all four of us were in the same bedroom. I mean, there was no ... Yeah, we were not separated, we're not boys, girls. We're not- we were brothers, sisters. Yes, we had one bedroom and, um, mom and dad had their bedroom and there was a big, uh, living room which we called Salotto and it was always padded with velvet and beautiful art pieces and nice chairs. And I remember very little, but yes.
Henry Green (00:11:06):
And did- did, um, uh, in this- in this apartment, uh, you would have let's say a Shabbat dinner?
Noemi Lieberman (00:11:15):
Oh, yes.
Henry Green (00:11:16):
Tell me about Shabbat.
Noemi Lieberman (00:11:18):
Uh, first of all, we wait until dad comes home. He worked like I said in a large company and there was working hours. And when he came, we could hear his tapping on the steps coming up the fourth floor. And, uh, yes, and everybody was ready. Like, you know, father was, um, them. I shouldn't say the master because he didn't want to be the master, but he was the father. We all, uh, you don't talk until that speaks to you and, uh, so on.
Noemi Lieberman (00:11:55):
My brothers had that attitude for quite a while. The girls are different. We looked at mom and we did what mom said, but the brothers were always, uh, trying to accommodate dad what he likes best.
Henry Green (00:12:14):
So he'd come home and it would be before Shabbat?
Noemi Lieberman (00:12:17):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, Friday afternoon. He sometimes would bring the fresh bread with him. Sometimes mom sends one of us to pick up the bread or so on. There were no telephones, we didn't know, but the breadman downstairs at the bakery. He knew if Rosa picked up her bread or not like, uh, I can't call it [foreign language 00:12:37], but it was a very special bread for Shabbat because actually and Shabbat we ate couscous which is, uh, different foods and different, but there was that bread for the Hamotzi.
Henry Green (00:12:50):
And your father, would you he to schul at Friday night or not?
Noemi Lieberman (00:12:54):
Not Friday night. My father went to schul [foreign language 00:13:00] probably. My father was a very deeply, uh, sentimental man, about his religion. But I don't think he had the time to go to schul. He did not wear a kippah. He did not really show it on the outside, but, uh, we knew deeply that he was very, very emotional about his religion. And then again, don't forget that he saw the difference before the Italians and when the Italians came in, you had to sort of mingle in with them.
Noemi Lieberman (00:13:37):
I can't really say much about that because I don't know. But I remember that there was a difference. In a matter of speaking, when we had Italian friends with us or just family.
Henry Green (00:13:50):
And so Friday night when you had Shabbat, you'd have a Shabbat dinner with the couscous?
Noemi Lieberman (00:13:54):
Yes.
Henry Green (00:13:55):
Your father would say Kiddush-
Noemi Lieberman (00:13:56):
Yes, definitely. Kiddush and Hamotzi and the candles. Yes, definitely and the [foreign language 00:14:03] was covered. Yes, definitely. We didn't have two [foreign language 00:14:05], we had one [foreign language 00:14:07]. Uh, what else can I tell you? The boys wore kippah. The- the- the three, four boys, the two little ones, the father, whatever. Yes, definitely. Uh, we did not have to have head cover, we did not, uh, I mean, it was very, uh, yeah.
Henry Green (00:14:24):
And, did, uh, your father smoke?
Noemi Lieberman (00:14:27):
Yes.
Henry Green (00:14:27):
And did he smoke on Shabbat?
Noemi Lieberman (00:14:27):
No.
Henry Green (00:14:34):
(laughs). Was that hard for him?
Noemi Lieberman (00:14:36):
Uh, apparently yes. It was a very ... I have a good story to tell you if you'll, whenever. Oh a, uh, when we were in Israel, uh, we were having Shabbat dinner Friday night, and all of a sudden my two brothers, uh, Ariel and Tsur went and go for a walk. So they go for a walk, they'd go out and my father knew what they were going out for. So he takes his pack of cigarettes, and he goes around the wall and he sees them [foreign language 00:15:08], "What are you doing here?" He says, "No, I'm just having a walk."
Noemi Lieberman (00:15:13):
So no, he did not smoke. I think I can say for sure he didn't smoke, but it was not forbidden, you do, you know you do it if you- yes. And we didn't have cars, we had bicycles. So it was not forbidden to ride your bicycle and so on and so on.
Henry Green (00:15:34):
Did you have help in the house?
Noemi Lieberman (00:15:36):
Yes. My mother always had a nanny, little, um, uh, there was, uh, one, I mean, you know, there was always help because, uh, people were always around looking for help. And for dwelling actually. If a young girl from a big family needed help, "Well, okay, you can live in this house, but you have to help. There are duties." So she used to either walk the baby or change [foreign language 00:16:04], whatever or whatever. And she always was a part of our table of our family, of our surrounding, yes.
Henry Green (00:16:13):
Was it a Jewish girl or?
Noemi Lieberman (00:16:15):
Jewish girls mainly, yes. Jewish girls that needed that were big families or were, you know, yes, definitely.
Henry Green (00:16:25):
And at home, what language did you speak?
Noemi Lieberman (00:16:28):
Um, with, uh, sabasa- with Grandpa and Grandma, we spoke Arabic and with mum and dad, we spoke Italian. Uh, mainly Arabic really. Most of the conversations were in Arabic. But Italian was, um, would come like, you know, you start speaking in a language that's more familiar. So Italian would come a little more, um, a little faster.
Henry Green (00:16:59):
And what- okay, and what school did you go to?
Noemi Lieberman (00:16:59):
Uh, I went to a school that's got ... In the area where we lived, walking distance was about 10 minutes walk, it was called [foreign language 00:17:09]. I had an aunt that was a teacher there and we had a wonderful upbringing. I mean, we were one and all. We were all the same. We had questions and we had the Jews, and we were all together.
Henry Green (00:17:24):
And the schooling was in Italian?
Noemi Lieberman (00:17:26):
Italian, yes.
Henry Green (00:17:27):
And Arabic or just-
Noemi Lieberman (00:17:28):
No, no, no, just Italian.
Henry Green (00:17:31):
Just Italian.
Noemi Lieberman (00:17:32):
Just Italian. At some point in the upper grades, I think they were teaching French and there were, but mostly Italian. Yes definitely.
Henry Green (00:17:41):
And so did one learn about Libya too or did one learn Italian, uh, history for example? Do you remember when you- do you- were you learning about your country? Or we're learning about Italy? Do you remember at all?
Noemi Lieberman (00:17:55):
Uh, yes. It was more Italy. We were influenced very much by the new come-, I should say new comers, but when they Italians came into Libya, they really tried to influence and everybody wanted to follow them. So yes, we were engrossed into the Italian mentality, Italian language, Italian upbringing, Italian styles, not the Arabic.
Henry Green (00:18:26):
So your parents for example dress. Would they be dressing Italian?
Noemi Lieberman (00:18:32):
Very much so. Suits and ties were very much. Uh, I have a picture that I'll give you for your, uh, files that my mother when she was a child, they were all dressed for Purim. So they dressed in that very, uh, it's called zdad, with a Z. It starts with a Z, zdad. And there were dressed ... We dressed up that for Purim. As a matter of fact, I also have a picture of me two years old in that zdad outfit, but we were always, uh, um, blouses and skirts and pants and sweaters for boys.
Henry Green (00:19:12):
Italian western dress?
Noemi Lieberman (00:19:12):
Yes, and we did not wear pants when we were little girls. But skirts, yes. Dresses beautiful, yes.
Henry Green (00:19:20):
And was the Muslim population also Western or?
Noemi Lieberman (00:19:23):
Yes, yes, we had friends and neighbors that were Muslims. They were very well liked by us and we were liked by them. As a matter of fact, I don't know when if I should tell you about how we left. But yes, we were warned by a- a very good friend, a Muslim friend of my father.
Henry Green (00:19:47):
So let's- let's just focus first on- on the relationships you had with Muslims, Christians. So you went to a school in which there were, uh, it was a- a co-ed school or just all girls?
Noemi Lieberman (00:19:59):
No, no, the- the boys and girls.
Henry Green (00:20:01):
Boys and girls.
Noemi Lieberman (00:20:01):
Yes.
Henry Green (00:20:01):
So and they were Christians and Jews [crosstalk 00:20:04].
Noemi Lieberman (00:20:04):
Christians, um, not that I can remember. I can't differentiate and I- I wouldn't tell you I-
Henry Green (00:20:09):
So did they come- did these friends of yours come to your house and visit?
Noemi Lieberman (00:20:13):
Yes.
Henry Green (00:20:13):
Did you go to their home?
Noemi Lieberman (00:20:15):
Yes.
Henry Green (00:20:16):
And did you eat at their home?
Noemi Lieberman (00:20:17):
Yes.
Henry Green (00:20:18):
So- so it was very, uh-
Noemi Lieberman (00:20:18):
Neighborly.
Henry Green (00:20:18):
Very neighborly.
Noemi Lieberman (00:20:21):
Friendly, neighborly, yes definitely.
Henry Green (00:20:24):
And what- what, uh, do you were you a member of, uh, any clubs at school or are you active in any-
Noemi Lieberman (00:20:30):
Sure, we had all the words I can think of. But I can't really remember attending. I was very young, but we had the Hatikvah Club, we had the [crosstalk 00:20:42], we had the-
Henry Green (00:20:43):
At- at the school?
Noemi Lieberman (00:20:44):
No, no, no, no, no. Oh, I- not at the school, in the city.
Henry Green (00:20:48):
In the city, but that school, was there any- okay.
Noemi Lieberman (00:20:51):
No, we had a choir that we sang Hebrew songs. I remember attending the choir at the school, a Hebrew song, but it must have been for a special reason.
Henry Green (00:21:02):
So but in the- in the- in the Jewish community-
Noemi Lieberman (00:21:05):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Henry Green (00:21:05):
You're saying, um, uh, you had different kinds of Jewish organizations that you were involved with or your family is involved with.
Noemi Lieberman (00:21:11):
Uh, uh, da- these are words that I heard that I knew my aunts, my uncles, they belonged to the, uh, they were everything in the social life they were involved, and we heard the words of and you can tell the difference if it's a Jewish organization, if it's a- a city happening, if it's a- a Christian happening or whatever, yeah.
Henry Green (00:21:35):
And it's- were they members of Zionist Organization at all do you know? Your parents?
Noemi Lieberman (00:21:41):
I didn't know if they called it Zionist then. But, uh, yes, we knew of [foreign language 00:21:52]. We knew of the [foreign language 00:21:53] and the [foreign language 00:21:56] and the flag and the, uh, we always talked about these things. But I can't say we worshiped or emphasized it. We knew about it, we lived it.
Henry Green (00:22:08):
And- and this would be you've learned at- at home or in these organizations or-
Noemi Lieberman (00:22:13):
Yes, yes.
Henry Green (00:22:15):
Um, did- did, um, let me- let me go back to a Jewish festival again. Let's take something like Pesaj, what was Pesaj like?
Noemi Lieberman (00:22:27):
Oh. Pesaj was the good old fashioned way. You had to sit on the floor. So we always had around Pesaj, we always made sure that we have enough pillows for the numbers of people that are coming to sit at the Seder. When you say the word Seder, Pesaj means low, rise, Seder and we all sat on the floor on big carpets like, you know, plush carpets and all that Persian I should say. And Pesaj was family time.
Noemi Lieberman (00:23:02):
There was never, I don't think we sat together with my aunts and uncles because everyone had large families. But for us, for me, I remember my father, his sister with two boys, she was a widow with two boys and us of five children, mom and dad and there was always a helper or whatever. So it's 12, 15 people around one Seder was the size that I remember. And [foreign language 00:23:36] and the songs and the- you don't call them prayers. They [foreign language 00:23:42] the reading of the Haggadah. Yes, definitely. [foreign language 00:23:47] were made by hand and so on.
Henry Green (00:23:51):
Where- did you- did your mother make it? The [foreign language 00:23:53].
Noemi Lieberman (00:23:53):
Uh, not my mother, but I had an aunt that was very much involved in that we must make, we must make. So we all went to my aunt's yard, whatever. And there was this taboon and they made matzah and they, uh, it used to be stuck on the walls of the taboon and this is how, and you brought the fresh matzah for your Pesaj table, yes. And no Couscous on Pesaj, but we did, we were able to eat rice which is later on we found out the difference. Uh, rice you can eat if you cook the same day because if it stays overnight, it ferments and we're we're not allowed, that Pesaj.
Henry Green (00:24:37):
And what kind of special dishes did you mom make for Pesaj?
Noemi Lieberman (00:24:42):
Uh, Pesaj was always, uh, potatoes, rice, chicken, beef, veal. We didn't have much fish because the fish was usually a, uh, an appetizer that was hot and spicy so very little for children. When we came to Israel [foreign language 00:25:01] different form. But in Tripoli, I don't remember much fish consumption, but beef, meat, veal, lamb, all those was normal.
Henry Green (00:25:14):
[crosstalk 00:25:14] were these made into special dishes with names or do you remember at all?
Noemi Lieberman (00:25:18):
Uh, yes. Mafroom was made with beef. Yaprak was made with, uh, I think was veal, uh, meat with rice, uh, different I can't remember exactly because what I remember now and I would tell you, it would be in Israel already.
Henry Green (00:25:36):
And your mother was doing cooking?
Noemi Lieberman (00:25:38):
Oh yes. Yes, my mother was a very good cook, and she did the cooking and, and she was glad and happy and blessed to do it. And I feel the same somehow.
Henry Green (00:25:50):
Did your- did your mother go out to shop or did the helper [crosstalk 00:25:54]?
Noemi Lieberman (00:25:54):
No. Uh, my dad did the shopping. He had, he knew exactly what she needed and he would go and shop and he would send that with one of his boy's helpers which is usually was a- a Muslim boy that is at your service. And he always came and, uh, we had a Chabanneau, we had one that we call bill. I can't remember why, but his name was Bill and he was an Arab. I can't, I don't-
Henry Green (00:26:27):
And did your father shop daily then? Was it a-
Noemi Lieberman (00:26:28):
No, not daily. It was probably twice a week or something. Yeah.
Henry Green (00:26:33):
And, um, did he go to the cafe? Did he have coffee? Did he play, uh, uh, [crosstalk 00:26:39].
Noemi Lieberman (00:26:38):
Yes. Yeah, no way. My father was a poker player. He had a once a week poker at our house and different homes of his different friends. I think there were mixed religions. There were I remember one Muslim and one Christian, but he and my uncle and another friend, sure. It was, uh, my father was a very European-minded man. He played poker when he was in his 30s.
Henry Green (00:27:10):
Did your mother played gin or, uh, [crosstalk 00:27:14].
Noemi Lieberman (00:27:15):
No mahjong. No. It was always cards. Uh, Gin. Uh, women played the different games. I can't remember the names. But yes, they were always with cards and guessing.
Henry Green (00:27:30):
(laughs).
Noemi Lieberman (00:27:31):
Yes.
Henry Green (00:27:32):
And you would watch- watch them play?
Noemi Lieberman (00:27:35):
Uh, yes. I remember watching them play and I didn't find much use for it to myself. I can't even remember what I thought of it. But now when I think of it, I said, "Why didn't I learn it? I should have learned something from my past."
Henry Green (00:27:52):
Um, so your- your life was more like, uh, you're born in '36. So, you know, and you s- and- and so you're, you know, those first, uh, age five to 10 you go to school, you come home, your friends visit you. It's- it's that kind of like very home-centric.
Noemi Lieberman (00:28:14):
Yes.
Henry Green (00:28:14):
And visiting your gr- your grandparents on the ranch.
Noemi Lieberman (00:28:17):
Yes.
Henry Green (00:28:17):
Um, so tell me about, um, then your- when did things begin to change? I mean, during you were born '36. So the, uh, the Italians and the Germans World War 2, do you have any memories of this at all?
Noemi Lieberman (00:28:35):
Very much so. Like I said, in order to save ourselves, we were asked to move into my grandfather's ranch. When we moved to my grandfather's ranch, my father had to ride his bike a little longer every day. So if he didn't want to he couldn't, he would have stayed in our own home where it was that apartment in the fourth floor. Now, uh, one day my father comes to the ranch, to the [foreign language 00:29:17] it was called farm ranch.
Noemi Lieberman (00:29:20):
And he tells us that there was an [foreign language 00:29:23]. [foreign language 00:29:25] it's a bomb, an incendiary bomb that fell in my ... We were on the fourth floor, remember we were the first one, fell exactly in my parents bedroom. And he came home very upset and he says he's not going to go to that place anymore. And yes, he started riding his bike all the way to the ranch and, uh, he had Muslim friends and Italian friends and, uh, they were all misplaced or displaced or they had to move or whatever. I can't remember much in details, but that was the story. You could see a difference is coming, but you didn't know what it was.
Henry Green (00:30:12):
So you're living on the ranch during this time of, uh, the Italians and the Jew- and they- did they- did they come into the ranch at all or?
Noemi Lieberman (00:30:22):
Oh yes. Oh yes. My, uh, my daughter Cena, I showed you the pictures before and her sister were walking home with a lot of shopping, with a lot of heavy duty. And there was this army, uh, tender that looks at them and said, "Do you want any help?" Like, "Can I help you?" They said, "No." They were scared, like you don't talk to a soldier, a foreign soldier. He says, [foreign language 00:30:49].
Noemi Lieberman (00:30:49):
So they said, "Oh, a Jewish guy. Okay." So they let him help, they ride into his jeep and they come to the [foreign language 00:31:02] which was about 15, 20 minutes ride. And this gentleman, by [foreign language 00:31:10] became my uncle. He fell in love with my daughter with my mother's sister and he married her in 1945 I think. Yes.
Henry Green (00:31:25):
He was Italian?
Noemi Lieberman (00:31:27):
Uh, no. He was a Czech or Slovakian in an army, in an army suit. He was serving some- he was an army man, probably with the British. Yes.
Henry Green (00:31:39):
Did, were there situations, uh, beside the bomb of where, um, a relative was- was, um, taken or if [crosstalk 00:31:49]
Noemi Lieberman (00:31:49):
No. We- we remember hearing about people being, um, being grounded up or being called to whatever you call those, whatever you name that situation. We have people that were taken to Bergen-Belsen, we have people that were, uh, just asked to leave the country. I can't remember what the reasons were, were but yes, you remembered of changes in the families and you don't ask questions.
Henry Green (00:32:20):
Was any of your family taking to Bergen-Belsen?
Noemi Lieberman (00:32:22):
Yes. My father's sister, her name is Gemma, Gemma Habib Benjamin and her husband were taken to Bergen-Belsen. And, uh, as a matter of fact, I found the register of Bergen-Belsen and I found their name in there and I was very pleased to report to whoever asked me, "Yes, they came back home safe and sound. And they had three children. And then they moved to Israel. And they lived to be 80 and 90."
Henry Green (00:32:50):
Do you remember, um, them- them being taken or did you remember them coming back or?
Noemi Lieberman (00:32:58):
I remembered the hoo-ha that went around and everybody was saying, "Gemma Hogenio, Gemma Hogenio something." Yes, they were taken. They were called. They went on their own will. They weren't, uh, handcuffed or something. They went yes, but they were called, they had to appear at some site. They're were- they were, and they were taken to Bergen-Belsen.
Henry Green (00:33:24):
And do you remember them coming back?
Noemi Lieberman (00:33:25):
Yes. Yes. Oh yeah, it was a hoo-ha they're back, they're back, they're back, they're back. I think we were already ... Yeah, we were al- no, we were still in, we were still in Tripoli. I can't remember where I saw them back.
Henry Green (00:33:41):
And- and the Italians and then the British came and then the Germans, was it different? Do you- do you have any recollection terms of difference between Italians and Germans at all or you were too young?
Noemi Lieberman (00:33:51):
Yes, I couldn't remember the difference to me. A soldier was a soldier was a soldier and I really can't tell the difference. All I can remember is that there were, uh, they were coming in sometimes with a very stern look and looking around, and sometimes with a friendly smile like my uncle came, like later he became my uncle. Uh, he came with a smile. He looked around, da-da-da, da-da-da and then he asked if he can come back, he came back and he married my daughter. So I mean, I couldn't tell the difference then between the different soldiers or different outfits, different uniforms.
Henry Green (00:34:30):
So the, um, the British come in and- and the Italians and Germans are out. And, uh, so the war ends, and does life change for you at all? Do you feel there's any change?
Noemi Lieberman (00:34:42):
Oh yeah. Then there was a beginning of something is coming I told you before, and, uh, one of my father's friends comes to him and tells him, "You know what? It's time for you to try to save your family. Take your family and go." And he figures like, you know, "What are you talking about?" And he came to my mother. And he says, "You know what Nazif said? Get your family and go. I don't know what he means." So she says, "What are you waiting for? We're going, we're leaving." "What do you mean we're leaving?" "We're leaving. Why? Because not long before the [foreign language 00:35:34] of the town which was a member of our family also, a distant cousin was found murdered in his house or on the street or something, I don't know if I should mention names."
Noemi Lieberman (00:35:48):
So uh, so there was already a worry and then everybody tried to connect it to the State of Israel is going to become strong. Uh, there is some resentment, people are after us, and everyone had their own ideas. So my mum and dad decided, and I must say, must have been my mother's, uh, decision, "Let's do it." She dressed us up and we were not going to leave the country, we were going on a vacation. But we couldn't leave the country or go out of that world unless we had an exit visa.
Noemi Lieberman (00:36:32):
Now, because my father was a French origin, we had to go to Tunis. So what happened is the decision was that we were going to Tunis for a vacation. And from there, my mom and dad made sure that we got the visas, we got the papers, we got the things. And from there, we went to Italy, where all the immigrants and all the moving out started. When we left Tripoli, we left our home intact with all the furniture and the carpets and the art pieces and the things. We were dressed up, I was dressed up in two three sweaters and one or two shirts and a coat and a pair of sandals and whatever and my mother carried her baby five, 10 months old in a little baby basket.
Noemi Lieberman (00:37:25):
And under the mattress of that basket, I care to tell you that everything she could put, she could hide, she could carry out that will give us help along the way was under that little baby's mattress.
Henry Green (00:37:41):
Jewelry and-
Noemi Lieberman (00:37:42):
Of course, jewelry and money and whatever. And probably a couple of pictures, whatever. I don't know exactly, but I remember she was holding that basket like a safety deposit key. Yup.
Henry Green (00:37:57):
And so your father and your mother and five children-
Noemi Lieberman (00:38:01):
Yes, we left-
Henry Green (00:38:02):
You took a bus?
Noemi Lieberman (00:38:03):
Yes. Took a bus overnight to Tunis.
Henry Green (00:38:07):
From Tripoli.
Noemi Lieberman (00:38:07):
From Tripoli, yes.
Henry Green (00:38:09):
And what year- was- what's the date? Do you-
Noemi Lieberman (00:38:12):
Uh, I think it was, it must have been around the new year's time because we left at the end of the year when my father was probably on a Christmas vacation or something I can't remember exactly. But yes, it was at the end of the year of '47.
Henry Green (00:38:30):
So between the war, end of the war of '45, war ends in '45 and '47. You know, it's two, two and a half years.
Noemi Lieberman (00:38:38):
Yes.
Henry Green (00:38:39):
Do you- do you have memories of- of being afraid or, uh, like changing more- more anti-Jewish, what a- I mean, Israel is now becoming more of a discussion.
Noemi Lieberman (00:38:53):
Yes.
Henry Green (00:38:53):
There are- is there- is there a res- a response? You're- you're now older. I mean, you're 36, you know, 46, you're 10 years old.
Noemi Lieberman (00:39:04):
Yeah.
Henry Green (00:39:04):
Do you f-, uh, hear, feel?
Noemi Lieberman (00:39:08):
If I told you that I heard or I felt or I knew it would be really, um, I heard didn't mean anything. Later on through the years I realized what was going on. Why would my mother dressed me up in two, three different sweaters, and then I remember, then they realized that mom couldn't carry a suitcase out so she put our clothes on top of us, all five children. And again, I don't remember any anti-semitism or- or a no neighbor ever shun us out or sq- no, I can't remember clearly.
Noemi Lieberman (00:39:47):
But after the fact, there probably was. That's why my parents were scared and they just walked away without telling anybody. We better not tell rather than be scared of telling.
Henry Green (00:40:01):
And did- um, uh, your- your parents have lots of Jewish friends.
Noemi Lieberman (00:40:05):
Oh, yeah.
Henry Green (00:40:06):
Were they- were they leaving too at this time?
Noemi Lieberman (00:40:07):
Oh yes, everybody started. That was sort of a- an exodus. Everyone found a way of going visiting friends, neighbors, relatives, somewhere else in Tunis, in Benghazi, in, uh, in Egypt, in Italy and everyone found a good reason. And yes, it was a get up and go out, uh, uh, uh, season.
Henry Green (00:40:38):
So your- your father's, uh, siblings, your mother's siblings, they all were leaving too?
Noemi Lieberman (00:40:43):
Uh, everybody was leaving one after the other. Um, many of them, uh, were, you know, they had a big business or they had the big family or they had a big house or they didn't want to leave. As a matter of fact, uh, I had an aunt that stayed there for very long after that. And I have a cousin that was well enough and good enough, she was going to university, and she married her, uh, teacher professor. And her father found out that he was a Muslim. So for us to hear about it was a real sad story.
Noemi Lieberman (00:41:24):
But her father, [foreign language 00:41:28] for her in her whatever in his anger, and then they left the country. And she is still in Tripoli today as far as, as much as I can understand.
Henry Green (00:41:42):
What happened to your grandparents in the ranch?
Noemi Lieberman (00:41:45):
Uh, the- my grandparents also were helped to leave. They left, they came to Italy I think for a week or two or a month or whatever it was. We did not see them in Italy, but I met them back in Israel.
Henry Green (00:42:01):
They left around the same time with you?
Noemi Lieberman (00:42:03):
Uh, probably same time within the three four months since we left, the whole family left.
Henry Green (00:42:10):
So you go from Tunis and you- from Tunis, you take a- a boat?
Noemi Lieberman (00:42:14):
Yes. To a- to- a- to Italy yes. To Rome, yes. Florence, my sister was sent to Florence, we were sent to Rome. I was sent to Genazzano. My- my parents were sent to Austria, different, um, different immigrants, uh, camps, or- or, uh, places to live until people from the joint came and looked and analyzed and you belong here, you belong there, you could do this, you should do that and so on. Yes, in Italy, we were sort of separated-
Henry Green (00:42:53):
Your family was separated.
Noemi Lieberman (00:42:53):
Oh yes, yes. In Italy right away, my siblings, my own-
Henry Green (00:42:58):
You were only 11 years old.
Noemi Lieberman (00:42:59):
Yes, I was sent to a home in Genazzano, uh, which was supposedly we were going to continue schooling, whatever. Not much, whatever, just a few months until October, November, and then we were taken. That would have been six, eight months.
Henry Green (00:43:19):
And were you- did this create fear for you leaving your parents and going somewhere else?
Noemi Lieberman (00:43:24):
I can't remember. Uh, to us, to me personally, what I can remember was the excitement of seeing a new place, I think. My sister was, uh, yes, she was sent with one of her best friends. So she didn't mind. We were all- we always heard about, uh, Miriam and Lola. She was like, you know, they were good friends going together to another college and other school. I can't remember hardship on us, but my parents must have gone through all this decision making and where you send to where, who you send to where was a hard choice.
Henry Green (00:44:04):
So in your case, the joint isn't the one that's-
Noemi Lieberman (00:44:08):
I think it was the joy, yeah.
Henry Green (00:44:10):
And you're speaking Italian, so it's not-
Noemi Lieberman (00:44:11):
Speaking Italian, we learned Hebrew through the year like, you know, in those months, we were already singing Hebrew songs. We were already identifying more with, uh, Judaism and maybe you call it Zionism. Yes.
Henry Green (00:44:27):
And so you're there let's say, uh, beginning of 1948. And how long did you stay there in Italy?
Noemi Lieberman (00:44:33):
The end of '48. October I was in Israel.
Henry Green (00:44:37):
So [crosstalk 00:44:38]
Noemi Lieberman (00:44:38):
November probably.
Henry Green (00:44:39):
So 10- maybe 10 months.
Noemi Lieberman (00:44:39):
Yes.
Henry Green (00:44:40):
So- so you're- you go to Italy before Israel becomes a state?
Noemi Lieberman (00:44:45):
Oh yes.
Henry Green (00:44:45):
May '48. And then you enter Israel after Israel-
Noemi Lieberman (00:44:49):
Yes, becomes a state.
Henry Green (00:44:50):
Okay, so you come in October and where do you go when you arrive in Israel?
Noemi Lieberman (00:44:54):
Uh, I was sent to, uh, a place called [foreign language 00:45:01] near [foreign language 00:45:02], children's home, of course, and you see all the children, everybody's happy. We all had groups. I think we were grouped by age. I don't think we're separated boys and girls and we all had our [foreign language 00:45:20] which is the counselor, uh, [foreign language 00:45:24] is a counselor, yes. And that's all I remember. And there was the one building that they showed you, that if something hurts you- you go there, the [foreign language 00:45:35] was the first place directly from Haifa we were taken to this children's home.
Henry Green (00:45:43):
From Italy to Haifa was by boat?
Noemi Lieberman (00:45:45):
Yes.
Henry Green (00:45:46):
And but there was a war going on then. Was there not a problem in terms of-
Noemi Lieberman (00:45:51):
I can't remember. I cannot remember a war in Israel. We came in, we were taken by buses, we were sheltered very well. You know, it was- it was done for it in children's style. I don't think anybody scared us or alarmed us or, "Don't worry or don't talk or don't scream or don't yell." We were just coming to a new country which was already the fourth or the fifth time that we embark on something new.
Henry Green (00:46:23):
And was any of your family with you or you were again by yourself?
Noemi Lieberman (00:46:27):
I was by myself. At that point, uh, they took my brother Tur to a different place. My sister came in an entirely different shipment, different ship or shipment or date, I can't remember that. And my parents came, uh, uh, probably a few days before us because right away as soon as we were placed, my parents came to visit us.
Henry Green (00:46:53):
They came to visit you.
Noemi Lieberman (00:46:54):
Yes.
Henry Green (00:46:56):
And but then they went back to wherever they went?
Noemi Lieberman (00:46:57):
Oh, they lived somewhere. They gave them their, uh, little place where yeah, it was Bay Area Cove near, uh, bers- near Be'er Sheva I think.
Henry Green (00:47:08):
Were they [foreign language 00:47:09]?
Noemi Lieberman (00:47:12):
[foreign language 00:47:12]. Yes, where you have your little tent and you go, there is a kitchen, there is a big stove where you cook and then you take it to the tent. And then there is that sink where you come back to work. And then there is that bathtub that you take turn to, but it was all very, very few days, very few weeks sort of until they found the place for you. And then they were moved to Ma'abarot.
Henry Green (00:47:44):
And when they went to Ma'abarot, you were still in your children?
Noemi Lieberman (00:47:48):
Oh yes, I was still in, uh, in Karkur and then I was sent to Tel Arish which is near Mikve, Israel, near Holon, somewhere there. Also a children's home. Also many of us. I think what they did is they placed us people from different countries together so we had something in common.
Henry Green (00:48:14):
So there were Libyans there?
Noemi Lieberman (00:48:15):
Uh, many. Yes, definitely. In Tel Arish, I was with many of my girls that we still meet today and we remind each other how we met when- uh, how we got together when we met the first time after we came out of Tripoli.
Henry Green (00:48:30):
And these Libyan girls, did they go to your school with you or not?
Noemi Lieberman (00:48:33):
Hmm, I can't remember, no. Tel Arish was the first school where I remember seeing girls that I can still, I still identify today.
Henry Green (00:48:42):
And did you speak Arabic with them?
Noemi Lieberman (00:48:44):
No.
Henry Green (00:48:44):
Hebrew?
Noemi Lieberman (00:48:45):
Italian and Hebrew.
Henry Green (00:48:46):
Italian.
Noemi Lieberman (00:48:46):
Most of the time. Arabic was a part of my language, but never a consistent Italian and Hebrew at all times.
Henry Green (00:48:56):
And so from Tel Arish, where did you-
Noemi Lieberman (00:49:00):
Tel Arish, from Tel Arish, I was, uh, sent home because I was old enough and my father needed help to, uh, to make ends meet. Uh, they had two other children in the Ma'abarot and he applied that he would like to have his daughters back. And at the age of, uh, 14 I think it was when they told me you're going home and I was happy I'm going home. And my father takes us to the, uh, to the [foreign language 00:49:36] to the working and if you need any help, here are two girls that are very capable, very good, very, so he says she's, uh, whatever 12 and she is, uh, 14.
Noemi Lieberman (00:49:50):
My sister is three years older. So I tiptoed so that he'll see the tongue taller so he would take me first. It was cute. So he puts his hand on my shoulder and he says, "Don't worry about it." Like, you know?
Henry Green (00:50:05):
And you're now back in living with him Ma'abarot?
Noemi Lieberman (00:50:08):
Yes, in the Ma'abarot, in [foreign language 00:50:11] not in a tent. It was a [foreign language 00:50:14]. It was the, uh, what do you call the [foreign language 00:50:17]? The hat?
Henry Green (00:50:19):
It's a hat. It's a hat.
Noemi Lieberman (00:50:19):
Uh, it's a wooden-
Henry Green (00:50:20):
It's a wooden, uh-
Noemi Lieberman (00:50:23):
Cottage. (laughs). Whatever you call it, yes. Yes.
Henry Green (00:50:26):
But you did- uh, was the bathroom inside or outside?
Noemi Lieberman (00:50:28):
Outside.
Henry Green (00:50:29):
Outside. Yes.
Noemi Lieberman (00:50:29):
You go, you line up, you're sure, and if it's raining, you take your raincoat, of course.
Henry Green (00:50:35):
And you're all living and it's one bedroom? You're all living in the same-
Noemi Lieberman (00:50:38):
Uh, there were two bedrooms and a kitchen. There was always decency in that matter. There was always a separate bedroom. Well, I shouldn't say always because many, uh, families probably couldn't manage with just two bedrooms. But we managed with two bedrooms. Mom and dad in one and, uh, siblings, four people, head and toe like, you know, we were sleeping. There was no problem. We were being helped. We were, I think we were brainwashed that this is the best way and it worked.
Henry Green (00:51:13):
And how long did you stay there?
Noemi Lieberman (00:51:15):
In the Ma'abarot, my parents take probably three, three to four years, I'm not sure because then they were signed up to get a Shikun. But you get a Shikun only if you can manage. I don't know the amount of money or what were the circumstances. But, uh, both of us, my sister and I were working and they allowed us to move to a shikun. In other words, we could pay for our own groceries or whatever it was, so yes.
Henry Green (00:51:52):
So you move with your parents then to the [crosstalk 00:51:54].
Noemi Lieberman (00:51:54):
To the Shikun, sure. To the [foreign language 00:51:56].
Henry Green (00:51:55):
Uh-uh (negative).
Noemi Lieberman (00:51:57):
Yes. In, uh, near Ramat Yitzhak, near Ramat Gan. Yes, many of the families that we live together, uh, were all there and we were, um, sort of a part of a very, very large community. We're all going through it in the same way and we all helped each other sort of find a way.
Henry Green (00:52:19):
This would have been 52 or 53.
Noemi Lieberman (00:52:22):
Uh, yes. 51, 52, 53, sure.
Henry Green (00:52:26):
And was it a Libyan? Mostly Libyans or?
Noemi Lieberman (00:52:29):
Um, not only Libyan, but as far as I can remember, mostly [foreign language 00:52:38] Egyptians and Moroccans and Iraqis and India, and, uh, all newcomers, all new immigrants all went through that, uh, step forward from- from [foreign language 00:52:58] to, uh, whatever. You know, like step by step. I thought it was as far as I can remember now- as far as I can understand now as an adult, uh, when I was a child, I didn't understand it.
Noemi Lieberman (00:53:15):
Everybody tried their best to make family stay together. I remember that they used to tell us, "Yeah, you're going to a better place because you're going to your parents."
Henry Green (00:53:28):
And everyone spoke at this time Hebrew or?
Noemi Lieberman (00:53:31):
Hebrew and Italian, we kept our language. Uh, Arabic was the very traditional, uh, language that my grandparents spoke. And we, whenever we came there, it was alive and well, but it was sort of a dialect for Jews in Libya. Yes.
Henry Green (00:53:51):
And did you feel, um, there was, um, any kind of- what was the relationship between Ashkenazim and Sephardi? Do you remember back then at all?
Noemi Lieberman (00:54:03):
Uh, yeah. Do I have to? (laughs). Yeah, well, yes, it was. There was a difference. Definitely. I didn't feel it as a child. But when I became a little more adult, a little more understanding, I could see the difference. They would ask you where are you from? What language do you speak, uh, what does your father do? Those questions were a catching questions. And, uh, yes, I started feeling it when, uh, of course, in my father's book, a woman doesn't go to the army, and we were not allowed to go to the army.
Noemi Lieberman (00:54:51):
Uh, so I did everything I could as a teenager and as a growing teenager to be in the different clubs and organizations that make you feel as if you were in the army. And I was always involved, and I was always in the, um, [foreign language 00:55:13] and so on and so forth. But when they asked me, if I, um, if I'm religious, I said yes, because that was the only reason that keeps you from going to the army if you're a religious girl. I did-
Henry Green (00:55:29):
So did you- did you do community services as far as [crosstalk 00:55:32].
Noemi Lieberman (00:55:32):
A lot of, yes, uh, through Bnei Akiva and through, uh, [foreign language 00:55:39] through different, yes. But I always had to watch my language and not to say anything that would make me look that I am not from the religious sect. Uh, which is important to my dad, because his daughters are not going to go to the army. And that was, uh-
Henry Green (00:55:58):
So if I'm trying to understand this, on the one hand, you're avoiding the army by being religious.
Noemi Lieberman (00:56:07):
Yes.
Henry Green (00:56:07):
And on the other hand, you're speaking to the Ashkenazi as though you're European?
Noemi Lieberman (00:56:13):
No. No, we never deny that we are, uh, from Tripoli, but sometimes you got caught into the ugly discussion [foreign language 00:56:28] and they didn't call us Farhud, they called us Shvartze. So this was, I didn't know Yiddish. I didn't know what the word Shvartze is. But when, when I understood that word, it started making a difference in who you speak to, how you present yourself, what do you say? That's all.
Henry Green (00:56:59):
And so when, so you-
Speaker 3 (00:57:00):
Hold on one second, the phone, can you-
Henry Green (00:57:08):
It's just we're waiting because he wants the phone, so we'll edit this, the- the phone call out. And this is a very interesting conversation right now. Okay, so Shvartze, so these people over here don't know what's going on. So it's basically saying you're black. So think of the United States. So a white person saying you're black, okay? [foreign language 00:57:32], okay? So they're being defined the Sephardi as though they're the blacks.
Noemi Lieberman (00:57:38):
The blacks.
Henry Green (00:57:39):
Okay? Like-
Noemi Lieberman (00:57:39):
The darker ones.
Henry Green (00:57:40):
The darker ones. Well, it's good. What I'm- what I'm- what I'm trying to say here is that- is that I was trying to provoke her by saying European which is what I did because the reality is that they were discriminated against.
Noemi Lieberman (00:57:56):
I was not called European.
Henry Green (00:57:59):
Yeah, but not European.
Noemi Lieberman (00:58:00):
Uh, my, uh, okay, so let me tell you how we got to that being careful. Uh, my sister met this young man from the egg- um, he was a bus driver and she comes on his bus, and he asked her for her name. And she tells him her name and he knows where he dropped her off. And a few days later, he comes looking for her. He's looking for Miriam Habib. And okay, Miriam Habib he found, he finds Miriam Habib and he gets married to her in a couple of months later because he loves that idea of getting a girl that is well-trained in the kitchen and she's going to be the best mother for his children and so on.
Noemi Lieberman (00:58:49):
His name was Yosef Simerman, and my sister was Miriam, and they got married. Wonderful. Uh, a couple of years later, um, we are invited to my cousin's wedding, my own cousin from the Habib family. And, uh, she married a Canadian guy from the Finkler family here in Toronto. Of course, I was invited, and my husband was there, Max was there as a guest of this Finkler [foreign language 00:59:29]. And we meet at this wedding and, uh, he looks at me and he asked me for my name and the usual, he wants to marry a good, well-trained, whatever, Sephardic mother.
Noemi Lieberman (00:59:44):
And my father looks at me and puts a finger in my nose and he says, "You get married only once, so you better watch out who you're marrying." Now, I can tell you that when very funny, but it was a very serious conversation to me, stayed with me all my life because he knew what was going on between Ashkenazim and Sephardi. Is this man going to treat me like a wife? And I can say, "Thank God, yes. I can say it with all my heart." He was the best gentleman, the best husband a girl can have and he was my husband for 43 years and he passed on from cancer here in Toronto, Canada. So yes, he treated me like a real jewel from a different jewelry box.
Henry Green (01:00:45):
So you meet him and, uh, this is 55 or something or 54. When do you meet [crosstalk 01:00:52]
Noemi Lieberman (01:00:54):
1957. It took me exactly five weeks, uh, excuse me, three weeks to get, to decide that we're getting married. But then the Rabbanut being like my father's very, uh, very careful attitude. They said, "Do you have a single certificate that you are single men? How can we let a young girl go out of Israel?" "So what's that? What's a single cert-" "Oh, the Rabbanut of your country, of your city, of your town has to give you that you are single, that you are not a married man.
Noemi Lieberman (01:01:36):
And he had to I think write or telegraph to someone, you know, here in Toronto, and they send a singles certificate to show that he was a single man. And then the Rabbanut lets us get married to a man from outside the country which was not a very easy, you would feel that they're telling me what to do. No, they're watching out for me. And they did watch out and made sure that I'm marrying a man from the other side of the world, but he is a single man and he is going to be a husband and he was a husband, a model of a husband.
Henry Green (01:02:19):
So you get [crosstalk 01:02:21].
Noemi Lieberman (01:02:20):
The best I ever had. I never heard another one.
Henry Green (01:02:23):
So you get married in '57?
Noemi Lieberman (01:02:25):
In 1957 in March I got married. Yes.
Henry Green (01:02:28):
His name is Max?
Noemi Lieberman (01:02:29):
Max Lieberman.
Henry Green (01:02:31):
And where was he born?
Noemi Lieberman (01:02:32):
He was Będzin, Poland.
Henry Green (01:02:34):
And you go back to Canada with him?
Noemi Lieberman (01:02:37):
Ye- no, not with him. He had to come to Canada and place a sponsorship per letter or certificate or whatever you call it that he sent to the authorities in Israel and they let me go out of Israel as his wife as Mrs. Lieberman. Now I'm not Noemi Habib, I am Mrs. Lieberman. So I left the country. Yes, I got married March 13th of 1957 and I left the country July 18 of 1957, three months later.
Henry Green (01:03:15):
And you come to Toronto. I come to Toronto, and you, uh, and what does max do for a living?
Noemi Lieberman (01:03:20):
Max was then involved in building homes. He had a partner and they were building and they were, uh, sort of in construction and so on. And through the years, he was able to buy a little building on St. Clair Avenue West which is an Italian area with an Italian partner. And that partner had a grocery store next door and there was an empty store next to the grocery store. And Max decided, "Let's make a menswear store." And we had this menswear store called Trevi men's wear. Uh, and from there, we went on and on and on in, in, uh, being careful in how to do business until, uh, you know we had our children and their schooling and their universities and our home and. you know, we sort of from that little bit of a store, we really grew up, Max was a very good businessman.
Henry Green (01:04:22):
And how many children do you have?
Noemi Lieberman (01:04:25):
Two sons.
Henry Green (01:04:26):
And their names?
Noemi Lieberman (01:04:27):
Uh, Isidor Lieberman is my older [foreign language 01:04:31] and he's married to Daisy [Rotblot 01:04:35] and Jeff Lieberman, [foreign language 01:04:38] is married to Susan Levi.
Henry Green (01:04:41):
And the, uh, older boy lives in Toronto or elsewhere? Uh, the older boy, his grandfather today.
Noemi Lieberman (01:04:50):
Oh, grandfather.
Henry Green (01:04:50):
Yes, he is a grandfather.
Noemi Lieberman (01:04:52):
Uh, yes. Uh, no. He was, um, uh, he was able to move on to the Cleveland Clinic on the, um, on his potentials for minimal invasive surgeries and, uh, he was very successful. And he's now the head and I think he's a CEO, whatever you call those titles at the Texas Back Institute.
Henry Green (01:05:20):
And you're- and Jeff?
Noemi Lieberman (01:05:21):
Uh, Jeff is, uh, working at Walmart. Uh, he is the dearest son I could ever have close by. We get together every Friday we have dinner. Uh, we go to schul every Saturday together, and he's the most wonderful son a mother can ask for.
Henry Green (01:05:45):
So let me just ask you some final questions. Uh, how do you preserve your Sephardi heritage?
Noemi Lieberman (01:05:52):
Uh, simply by memory, and by using some of the words that my parents and grandparents used in us. In other words, uh, I call Jeffrey [Yingly 01:06:07] which is a Yiddish word for son. Okay? Yingly is my little son because he is my younger son. Uh, with Izzy, I sort of, uh, adjusted a word to his name which means God be with you in Arabic. He is easy Lieberman, [foreign language 01:06:32] like God be with you because to me, uh, to have a son going out of town, taking my grandchildren, to me, it was sort of, uh, "How could you do that?" But then I did that to my mother, you know, then I remembered what I caused my mother. The only difference is that my mother had five more and I only had one more and so on.
Henry Green (01:07:00):
Where- how do you, uh, how would you describe your identity? How do you see yourself in terms of your identity?
Noemi Lieberman (01:07:07):
You mean, Sephardic Ashkenazi?
Henry Green (01:07:09):
Any, any, any, how do you identify? Ashkenazi can be anyway.
Noemi Lieberman (01:07:13):
I must tell you, honestly or truly, I feel Canadian. I thank Canada and I thank God for bringing me to Canada. I will not forget my Israel, I will not forget my religion. I go to schul on Shabbat. I- I observe all the holidays because I am grateful to Canada that they allow me, I don't have to hide in a basement to light the candles and to observe a holiday. I am grateful to be alive and be proud to be Canadian. I am Jewish, and I'm very much Zionist.
Henry Green (01:07:59):
Do you consider yourself a refugee?
Noemi Lieberman (01:08:01):
No.
Henry Green (01:08:02):
Do you s- consider yourself a migrant, a, uh, an immigrant? How do you see yourself in terms of your living?
Noemi Lieberman (01:08:10):
Give me another word that means tradition. Um, migrant to me is people that are, are, are, uh, struggling to arrive somewhere, is that the migrant?
Henry Green (01:08:24):
How do you-
Noemi Lieberman (01:08:25):
I think struggle, I never struggled in my life.
Henry Green (01:08:28):
So you, if you, when you describe you're leaving Libya-
Noemi Lieberman (01:08:31):
Yes.
Henry Green (01:08:31):
How would you define it?
Noemi Lieberman (01:08:36):
We left for the better of the family. My father and mother left to keep us safe. I think that's what I believe, and I truly believe that they did it for that reason.
Henry Green (01:08:50):
Do your- your children, how did they identify?
Noemi Lieberman (01:08:55):
They are very, very close to all our siblings in Israel. The Ashkenazi side and the, uh, Sephardic side. We're all families. When we go to Israel, there is a barbecue of 180 people and we're all related. Now, uh, it depends where it is and what. I mean not everybody comes, some of them are Shabbat, they keep Shabbat and they don't show up some of them. I mean, I can tell you, but as a family, as a birthday, we get greetings from everywhere. We're all very, very close to each other.
Noemi Lieberman (01:09:34):
And of course, uh, I had unfortunately, I had to go to Israel many times on, uh, funerals and sitting Shiva, but then I made a v- I made a promise to myself. Now I'm going for [foreign language 01:09:50]. So I've been going to weddings of my cousins and my relatives, close relatives, children and grandchildren for as long as I can.
Henry Green (01:09:59):
So let me ask you one last question and that is what message would you like to give to anyone who might listen to this interview? In other words, anyone is going to listen to this. What message do you want to give to them?
Noemi Lieberman (01:10:13):
My message is please God, keep your families together. Try, try to erase anything that will interfere in the closeness of brothers and sisters, siblings, mommies and daddies. Uh, and my best wish for this minute is please God, give respect to your elderly. We have been there, we've done that. You may not think it was so important, but that's why you're here today and try to keep that tradition.