Interview date: 9/19/2016
Location: Toronto, Canada
Interviewer: Henry Green
Total time: 1:09:07
Naim Dallal: Born in Baghdad, Iraq in 1923. Arrived in Damascus in 1943. Arrived in Beirut in 1947. Arrived in Baghdad in 1947. Arrived in London in 1951. Arrived in Israel in 1951. Arrived in Toronto in 1959.
[01:27:49] Interviewer: What is your name?
[01:27:51] Naim Dallal: Naim.
[01:27:53] Interviewer: Naim. And your last name?
[01:27:54] Naim Dallal: Dallal.
[01:27:55] Interviewer: Dallal. And when were you born?
[01:27:59] Naim Dallal: I was born in Baghdad, 1924.
[01:28:03] Interviewer: So first let me say thank you for, from Sephardi Voices for being interviewed.
[01:28:09] Naim Dallal: Well I'm very glad to attend.
[01:28:12] Interviewer: So let's begin with something that's, simple question. Tell me about your family background, your grandparents.
[01:28:22] Naim Dallal: Well, my grandparents it has to be from the side of the father and the mother. From the side of my father they are broker for many generations. And from the side of my mother, that uh...there are descendents from Ghatan [ph] family and Daniel, which they were a member of parliament. [01:28:56] Senators, and my mother's...uh...uncle uh....Menachem Daniel was uh, as a matter of fact he has the title "Sir" and uh...they were very rich [and known?] in Baghdad. [01:29:25] And uh, at the time of the Ottoman Empire Menachem Daniel was a representative to, to the parliament which established, at the time of Sultan Abdul Hamid II. My uncle, Saul Ahgaton [ph] is member of parliament. [01:29:51] And my mother's cousin Asa [ph] Daniel, senator. And they were very, very rich.
[01:30:01] Interviewer: So let's first talk about your father's parents.
[01:30:04] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[01:30:05] Interviewer: What was your grandfather’s name?
[01:30:08] Naim Dallal: Robin.
[01:30:09] Interviewer: And your grandmother's name?
[01:30:12] Naim Dallal: Uh, Hannah.
[01:30:14] Interviewer: And what was her name at birth? The family name, your grandmother's family name at birth?
[01:30:21] Naim Dallal: My grandmother? Gourgir [ph].
[01:30:25] Interviewer: And were they a family that, both of them, families from Iraq? Or from the Ottoman Empire for many generations?
[01:30:35] Naim Dallal: Yeah. But the Gourgir family, it is known that they emigrated from Georgia.
[01:30:42] Interviewer: From Georgia.
[01:30:44] Naim Dallal: Yeah. And this is the name Gourgir, like in Georgia. But that many, many...generations before.
[01:30:56] Interviewer: And what kind of work did your grandfather do?
[01:30:59] Naim Dallal: My grandfather...a broker.
[01:31:02] Interviewer: A broker.
[01:31:03] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[01:31:04] Interviewer: In Baghdad?
[01:31:05] Naim Dallal: Yeah, in Baghdad.
[01:31:05] Interviewer: And what company did he work for?
[01:31:08] Naim Dallal: There were no company, that, for themselves.
[01:31:11] Interviewer: For themselves. Your mother's - that's your father's side. Your mother's side, what was your mother's father's name?
[01:31:19] Naim Dallal: Moshe.
[01:31:20] Interviewer: Moshe.
[01:31:21] Naim Dallal: Gahtan [ph].
[01:31:22] Interviewer: And his wife's name?
[01:31:26] Naim Dallal: His wife name? Masouda [ph].
[01:31:29] Interviewer: And her...maiden name, her name when she was born? Her family name?
[01:31:34] Naim Dallal: Delad [ph].
[01:31:35] Interviewer: Delad. And what did he do or a living?
[01:31:39] Naim Dallal: Who? Moshe? Well, they were, as I said before, they were engaged in uh, many uh, real estate and lands, agriculture, yeah.
[01:31:55] Interviewer: And...
[01:31:56] Naim Dallal: Because, because his mother Daniel...Moshe, his mother Daniel that I mentioned that they were senators and uh...
[01:32:09] Interviewer: So do you have memories with your grandparents? Do you have any memories with them?
[01:32:14] Naim Dallal: Only my grandmother from my mother's side.
[01:32:20] Interviewer: Can you tell me a memory? Some memories you had?
[01:32:22] Naim Dallal: With her?
[01:32:23] Interviewer: Yeah.
[01:32:24] Naim Dallal: No, just she was a nice woman and we loved her.
[01:32:28] Interviewer: Did you ever watch her cook?
[01:32:31] Naim Dallal: Yes.
[01:32:31] Interviewer: What did she cook?
[01:32:33] Naim Dallal: Everything Iraqi.
[01:32:35] Interviewer: Name some dishes.
[01:32:37] Naim Dallal: T'bit, you know...
[01:32:37] Interviewer: T'bit, sure! What else?
[01:32:42] Naim Dallal: Emhasha [ph].
[01:32:44] Interviewer: And what, what did you like about the dishes?
[01:32:48] Naim Dallal: Everything.
[01:32:50] Interviewer: When, do you have - when , when she, did your mother help her cook?
[01:32:58] Naim Dallal: Yeah because my mother was also a good cook.
[01:33:03] Interviewer: And your mother, what was her name?
[01:33:05] Naim Dallal: Who?
[01:33:06] Interviewer: Your mother's name. What was your -
[01:33:07] Naim Dallal: Rahma.
[01:33:09] Interviewer: And your father's name?
[01:33:10] Naim Dallal: Yussef.
[01:33:11] Interviewer: How did they meet? Do you know the story of your parents?
[01:33:15] Naim Dallal: Well it was, at that time we are talking...about a hundred years ago. I am 93 now...and more than hundred. The, with the family they are [Unintelligible] with the parents. this is how it is the...uh, marriage was uh, arranged. [01:33:43] They don't go for uh...out together...
[01:33:53] Interviewer: Were, was your uh, were your, was your family religious?
[01:33:59] Naim Dallal: Yes.
[01:34:00] Interviewer: Your grandparents? Were they religious?
[01:34:02] Naim Dallal: Very. Very religious.
[01:34:06] Interviewer: And what, do you remember what synagogue they went to? The name of the synagogue?
[01:34:10] Naim Dallal: Well, as I said before, that synagogues were open to everybody. You don't need to be...you don't need to be a member all that. Any synagogue you want to go, you go.
[01:34:26] Interviewer: So you weren't - did you go to Meir Taweig? Di d you go to one synagogue more than another one?
[01:34:34] Naim Dallal: Not really, whatever close to where we lived.
[01:34:39] Interviewer: What area did you live in?
[01:34:40] Naim Dallal: In Baghdad? A place called Batawin.
[01:34:44] Interviewer: Batawin.
[01:34:45] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[01:34:46] Interviewer: And in that area uh, Batawin, were other Jews living in that area?
[01:34:52] Naim Dallal: Oh it is multi-ethnic.
[01:34:54] Interviewer: Multi-ethnic.
[01:34:55] Naim Dallal: But mostly there are the Jews that they live there.
[01:35:00] Interviewer: Your father, what kind of job did he have?
[01:35:04] Naim Dallal: Broker.
[01:35:09] Interviewer: A broker. He was broker also. And uh...your uh, what year were your born? What year were you born?
[01:35:20] Naim Dallal: My?...1923.
[01:35:21] Interviewer: 1923. And do you have any brothers or sisters?
[01:35:27] Naim Dallal: Two brothers.
[01:35:28] Interviewer: And what, what, what is, what are their names [overlap]?
[01:35:31] Naim Dallal: One older than me he's named Selioum [ph] and one younger than me, Albert.
[01:35:37] Interviewer: And the older brother, what year was he born?
[01:35:41] Naim Dallal: Two years uh, older than me, 1921. And that was...the day of the year when King Faisal 1st came to Baghdad and decrowned the king of Iraq.
[01:35:56] Interviewer: And your younger brother, when was he born?
[01:35:59] Naim Dallal: Also Baghdad.
[01:36:01] Interviewer: But what year? What year?
[01:36:03] Naim Dallal: 1927.
[01:36:05] Interviewer: 1927. Um, your, you said you were um, um, religious.
[01:36:15] Naim Dallal: Me?
[01:36:15] Interviewer: Yeah, your family...
[01:36:17] Naim Dallal: The family yeah.
[01:36:18] Interviewer: Can you tell me about Shabbat? What was Shabbat [overlap]
[01:36:21] Naim Dallal: Oh they observed Shabbat very strict.
[01:36:26] Interviewer: Would you -
[01:36:25] Naim Dallal: ...and kosher.
[01:36:27] Interviewer: Kosher. Would you go to synagogue Friday night? Would your father go to synagogue? Kabbalat Shabbat, would he go for...
[01:36:35] Naim Dallal: They go, not necessary to be with them.
[01:36:41] Interviewer: But would you, would you go with your father?
[01:36:45] Naim Dallal: Sometimes.
[01:36:47] Interviewer: Would your father would come....um, for Shabbat would people for Shabbat dinner? Who came for Shabbat dinner?
[01:36:56] Naim Dallal: All the family. And that was very, very popular.
[01:37:03] Interviewer: So it would be your grandparents would come? Your grandmother? Your...?
[01:37:07] Naim Dallal: Well it was [Unintelligible] grandparents only one.
[01:37:11] Interviewer: Uncles? Aunts?
[01:37:14] Naim Dallal: Usually, no, the family.
[01:37:16] Interviewer: Just the, the immediate family.
[01:37:19] [pause for audio]
[01:38:15] Interviewer: So you were, grew up in Batawin.
[01:38:19] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[01:38:20] Interviewer: And what school did you go to?
[01:38:24] Naim Dallal: On what level?
[01:38:26] Interviewer: Elementary. The first level.
[01:38:29] Naim Dallal: Yeah. Elementary I went to two schools, Shamash and the [Unintelligible].
[01:38:35] Interviewer: And when you went to Shamash...um, were there uh, other uh, was it just a Jewish school?
[01:38:44] Naim Dallal: It is parochial.
[01:38:45] Interviewer: Parochial. And um, did you learn Hebrew there?
[01:38:49] Naim Dallal: Oh yeah, yeah.
[01:38:51] Interviewer: And did you learn in Arabic? Or did you learn in some other language?
[01:38:56] Naim Dallal: No, Arabic and English.
[01:38:58] Interviewer: And in English.
[01:38:59] Naim Dallal: As a matter of fact, Shamash school uh, affiliated to some, some organization in London. They have the matriculation uh...program.
[01:39:17] Interviewer: In English.
[01:39:17] Naim Dallal: English.
[01:39:18] Interviewer: In English. And when uh, you came home, did you speak to your parents in English or in Arabic?
[01:39:28] Naim Dallal: Arabic.
[01:39:29] Interviewer: In Arabic. And after Shamash, what school did you go to?
[01:39:34] Naim Dallal: American.
[01:39:35] Interviewer: American.
[01:39:36] Naim Dallal: No, after Shamash I went to also primary called [Awerna?]
[01:39:42] Interviewer: Okay. And after that?
[01:39:45] Naim Dallal: Uh, American school.
[01:39:47] Interviewer: American school and it was in English again?
[01:39:49] Naim Dallal: Oh yes.
[01:39:51] Interviewer: In English.
[01:39:52] Naim Dallal: English, Arabic, yeah.
[01:39:54] Interviewer: And did you have a bar mitzvah?
[01:39:58] Naim Dallal: In Baghdad? Not celebrated but uh...simple.
[01:40:05] Interviewer: At home?
[01:40:06] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[01:40:08] Interviewer: And did you uh, afterwards did you put on talit tefilin? Were you religious? Were you...Uh...
[01:40:17] Naim Dallal: [overlap] Occasional I used to observe that.
[01:40:22] Interviewer: So when you were growing up, did you have - your friends, were they Jewish, Muslim, Christian?
3A[01:40:33] Naim Dallal: I have a lot of Muslims and the Christians. Of course Jewish also. A lot.
[01:40:40] Interviewer: And did you play with them in the street?
[01:40:41] Naim Dallal: Exact, I [Unintelligible].
[01:40:43] Interviewer: Did you play sports?
[01:40:45] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[01:40:46] Interviewer: What kind of sports did you play?
[01:40:48] Naim Dallal: Uh...soccer.
[01:40:50] Interviewer: Soccer. And your, your, was it a Jewish club that you played with or...?
[01:40:56] Naim Dallal: Not a club but teams where, where you lived at that place uh, you had and it was, usually we used to have Muslims with us because the Jews, when they play, if they win, they got beaten. [01:41:20] So we have two or three Muslim with us and the coach Muslim. So that for protection.
[01:41:34] Interviewer: Did you Muslim and Christian friends. Did they come into your house and visit you at your house?
[01:41:40] Naim Dallal: Oh yes. Yeah.
[01:41:41] Interviewer: Did you visit them at their homes?
[01:41:43] Naim Dallal: Yes, we visiting.
[01:41:46] Interviewer: So um, in the uh, what was life like for being a Jewish boy uh, in the uh 1930's, early 1930's, you were 12 years old, 13.
[01:41:59] Naim Dallal: Well that really good question because I was in Batawin which is multi-ethnic...even at the time. When the Nazi were there the student we were at that school about 20 Jewish. [01:42:19] We were treated well.
[01:42:24] Interviewer: So when you, you would, how would you get to school? Would you walk? Would you get driven?
[01:42:29] Naim Dallal: Yeah, we walk. Yeah.
[01:42:31] Interviewer: So, in the 1930's, as you’re now a teenager, you're going to the American school...um, was it more difficult for you? Did you have situations that you became more afraid? Or was life...
[01:42:48] Naim Dallal: No. No.
[01:42:51] Interviewer: So when did life begin to change in Baghdad?
[01:42:55] Naim Dallal: The life changed when the Nazi came in 1933.Yeah, but that different not in the schools. That, there were...when the Mufti and the teachers from Syria and Palestine came. They used to...uh...practice propaganda strictly against the British. [01:43:27] And...the Jews.
[01:43:31] Interviewer: Was it more anti-British do you think or...
[01:43:34] Naim Dallal: [overlap] Mostly anti- mostly anti-British.
[01:43:38] Interviewer: So you were studying in the American school, not a British school.
[01:43:43] Naim Dallal: American.
[01:43:44] Interviewer: American. So were the uh, was this propaganda also anti-American?
[01:43:51] Naim Dallal: No, not at all.
[01:43:55] Interviewer: And the uh, so life began to change how? Your, was it harder for your parents and their business? Was it - how did it change?
[01:44:06] Naim Dallal: Yeah, they continue.
[01:44:07] Interviewer: They continued.
[01:44:09] Naim Dallal: Yeah even, even when the Nazi were there but the propaganda was very vicious.
[01:44:19] Interviewer: Now when you say propaganda, you mean the radio? Or do you mean newspapers?
[01:44:23] Naim Dallal: No, not the government because the government was pro-British.
[01:44:28] Interviewer: The government was pro-British. So...
[01:44:32] Naim Dallal: It was the, the monarchy.
[01:44:35] Interviewer: The monarchy was pro-British.
[01:44:37] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[01:44:38] Interviewer: So how, how, explain to me what kind of propaganda then. What did they do?
[01:44:45] Naim Dallal: Well, for example, uh, about Palestine...that was the worst. Of how, even they say how Jews they exaggerate also [?]. Jews call, killed Muslims and...the Mufti he didn't need somebody to teach him. He knows what to talk. [01:45:10] And then the others are Muslims of course, teachers, they used to...for example I was in a [Unintelligible] school and the teacher Muslims. they didn't do anything. This was mostly in newspapers and in clubs.
[01:45:37] Interviewer: So -
[01:45:37] Naim Dallal: So the government didn't hurt us. The government. But we used to...really scared of...about the propaganda and worry because they have a newspapers and that was enough.
[01:45:59] Interviewer: So the newspapers would have propaganda but how would uh, if you went to a store to buy something, let's say.
[01:46:09] Naim Dallal: Nothing happened.
[01:46:10] Interviewer: Nothing happened.
[01:46:11] Naim Dallal: No.
[01:46:11] Interviewer: So when did things start becoming more difficult for the Jews? Uh...1933, more propaganda but when did life begin to change. '38, '39? '40?
[01:46:25] Naim Dallal: It changed uh, after the war. Even the monarchy, the monarchy now changed because the Nazi was defeated. And all those who were [Unintelligible] they were jailed and uh... convicted. [01:46:52] So now different, when they were, at the time of the Nazis they were good the Jews but after they defeated now the wars now come.
[01:47:06] Interviewer: So let's go back to the Nazis and how um, did the Nazis gain more power? The people who supported uh, the Nazis, the Mufti and did they gain more power?
[01:47:17] Naim Dallal: Some clubs, clubs and uh...and, yeah students, some students radical yeah, but not the government.
[01:47:33] Interviewer: So you graduated high school what year? What year did you finish the American school?
[01:47:37] Naim Dallal: From high school 1943.
[01:47:39] Interviewer: 1943.
[01:47:40] Naim Dallal: And that was after the war.
[01:47:42] Interviewer: Okay so you're in high school during the Farhoud of 1941.
[01:47:49] Naim Dallal: Yeah, I was in, in intermediate yeah.
[01:47:52] Interviewer: So tell me about that, the Farhoud.
[01:47:55] Naim Dallal: The Farhoud. When it started it was Januar- uh June 1941. IT was, it was the Jewish holiday of Shavuot. [01:48:11] How it started...that uh, the Jews went to the other side of the city that the regent came back with the army uh, no, with the army of Jordan to defeat the Iraqi army. So the Iraqi army was defeated. [01:48:43] So they said that the Jews went to, to the airport to welcome uh...the regent and his uh, people who ran away to Jordan. And to gradu - uh, congratulate him because defeated the Iraqi army. So that was enough. [01:49:07] We didn't, within hours that all the city heard that. Then at night was the worst. But in the same day people they were in uh, buses, they take them from the buses and they killed them. [01:49:28] I was in the bus. I had uh, a Muslim look so they, they didn't know I am Jew. But I watched that myself. So I ran away to my uncle's house and later on uh, people from that school, Awena they were uh, know me, they escorted me to the house. [01:49:57] But we, what happened, we know that uh, about the killing, about the missing people. People who were injured they took them to hospital and we heard that they killed them in the hospital. [01:50:20] We heard that. Whether it was true or that, but we know that they were killed.
[01:50:28] Interviewer: So you were on the bus. And...
[01:50:31] Naim Dallal: They take them outside the bus and they shoot them.
[01:50:34] Interviewer: Were the, were the Muslims on the bus chanting anything?
[01:50:39] Naim Dallal: Oh they were happy.
[01:50:42] Interviewer: What were the words that they were saying?
[01:50:44] Naim Dallal: Yeah, they were happy [Unintelligible] to see this.
[01:50:48] Interviewer: And how would they know who was Jewish?
[01:50:49] Naim Dallal: And they encouraged, yes.
[01:50:51] Interviewer: How would they know who was Jewish on the bus?
[01:50:54] Naim Dallal: They killed.
[01:50:55] Interviewer: But how did they know, this is Jewish, this isn't Jewish?
[01:50:58] Naim Dallal: Oh that you know. I mean, you look at them, you know this is Jew. You know. But I had the look of Muslim.
[01:51:07] Interviewer: Were you afraid?
[01:51:08] Naim Dallal: Of course.
[01:51:11] Interviewer: And when you got home, uh, were you afraid that your, that they would attack your parent's house?
[01:51:19] Naim Dallal: Yes.
[01:51:20] Interviewer: Were there...
[01:51:20] Naim Dallal: But fortunately, fortunately...we had a Jewish inspector, police inspector in other place ha came on a horse. When those mob come he used to fire in the air and they were scared. [01:51:44] And there was a guy, a Jewish Kurdish guy with a revolver. He went to shoot and they scared so where we lived, at that Batawin, nothing happened. What happened is in downtown where the most of the Jews lived.
[01:52:09] Interviewer: Did uh, did you know anyone who got killed? Did you, was it anyone of your family's friends?
[01:52:15] Naim Dallal: [overlap] Yes.
[01:52:16] Interviewer: And what was their - do you know their names?
[01:52:19] Naim Dallal: Two girls were raped, kidnapped and raped.
[01:52:24] Interviewer: Had they gone to you school?
[01:52:26] Naim Dallal: Hm?
[01:52:27] Interviewer: Were they in your school, these girls?
[01:52:30] Naim Dallal: In the school?
[01:52:31] Interviewer: Were they students, like you?
[01:52:32] Naim Dallal: Yeah. I am. They wanted houses.
[01:52:38] Interviewer: What happened -
[01:52:39] Naim Dallal: And they, they uh, uh, broke into the stores because the main street was all Jews. And there was a, an English person with friend of my cousins, he said that with his own eyes he saw that the director of police uh, breaking the locks so the looter can go in. [01:53:13] And they went to, he saw there was uh, a famous store for watches that the, the Loyon [ph]. And uh, of course they take the watches, all that. But the police helped, helped the looters.
[01:53:36] Interviewer: And the uh, this was uh, inspired uh, directed by, by Muslims who were supportive of the Nazis?
[01:53:51] Naim Dallal: Not really, I mean just uh, those...there, there were mobs. That...so but I think you didn't ask me who was behind that.
[01:54:07] Interviewer: Who was behind that?
[01:54:08] Naim Dallal: So that paper which I gave you it is details what I can say briefly that...uh...when the Iraqi uh, army was defeated the ones who arranged, who conducted the coup d'état, they ran to uh...Iran. [01:54:37] So those, there were not in Iraq at that time because they ran away. The Mufti and he everybody. So....[01:54:51] Now Baghdad without any government. So there was a committee, self-appointed, from the lord mayor [?] and the governor of Baghdad and uh...lord mayor. Supposedly they would keep uh, they will keep uh, peace but that didn't help. [01:55:23] Because...in my opinion, in my opinion, the British and the king uh, they wanted that to happen to divert the attention because there were defeated, they defeated the army and they defeated the coup d'état. So to keep them uh...to keep them...thinking that the Jews were behind that.
[01:55:58] Interviewer: After the Farhoud, did life change for the Jewish people in Baghdad?
[01:56:04] Naim Dallal: Temporary. Then there's persecution start with the monarchy.
[01:56:10] Interviewer: With the monarchy.
[01:56:12] Naim Dallal: When they were good, before, when the Nazi were there.
[01:56:16] Interviewer: So after the war, it becomes worse for the Jews?
[01:56:20] Naim Dallal: [Overlap] Very.
[01:56:22] Interviewer: And what, how does it become worse? What happens?
[01:56:26] Naim Dallal: What happened. People who worked in the government, fired. If uh, Jews they are merchants, they don't give them license. So what they do they go partnership with a Muslim and order [?] them. [01:56:47] And uh...hanging. The hanging of uh, on the...uh...fabricated charges. That they are Zionist and they...and they, they take many people, many people. They send them to jail so that fear was spread. [01:57:22] Therefore when the government suggest that if you want to leave Iraq you have to sign that you...you don’t want your Iraqi citizenship. And people started to immigrate to Israel.
[01:57:42] Interviewer: So let's go back to the period though between the end of the war and 1947-48. Were, were there Jewish people who were communists?
[01:57:57] Naim Dallal: Communists? Oh yeah. They were, no, I mean there were uh, very few. Very few.
[01:58:07] Interviewer: So in your view...
[01:58:08] Naim Dallal: [overlap] Very few.
[01:58:08] Interviewer: Most were not...
[01:58:10] Naim Dallal: Oh mostly no.
[01:58:12] Interviewer: Did you know any Jewish people who were communists?
[01:58:15] Naim Dallal: Communists?
[01:58:16] Interviewer: Did you know...
[01:58:16] Naim Dallal: I don't know them but I heard of them.
[01:58:18] Interviewer: You heard of them. What about Zionism? Were, were the Jews, was your family supportive of Zionism?
[01:58:26] Naim Dallal: No. Well most of the Jews, they didn't.
[01:58:31] Interviewer: So did you, you knew Hebrew, your parents were religious. Did you know that there was a Zionist movement?
[01:58:38] Naim Dallal: Then, uh, oh, they know.
[01:58:41] Interviewer: They know, and you knew.
[01:58:42] Naim Dallal: Oh yeah. We know.
[01:58:44] Interviewer: Did you - what was your thinking? Did you, did there were Zionists who came from Palestine and to help. Did you meet any of them? Were you involved with any of them?
[01:58:56] Naim Dallal: No. They were just closed [?]. The people between them. But let me tell you something. In the 1920's the Zionist movement came uh, in open. And uh, Nouri Saïd that he was...minister of interior. [01:59:27] And he gave them license to, to work, to the Zionists. ... But later on...not only that, and he instructed the passport department not to give Jews passport to Palestine until they became, they, they have uh...that uh, the Zionist appre - approved that. So that was changed. [02:00:01] During that, the...the '40's the same one, Nouri Saïd was prime minister who was against the Jews. Not in open so my mother's cousin, Senator Ezra Daniel in the parliament, I was there and I remember it like today. [02:00:33] He told him, "You were minister of interior and you gave permission to the Zionists to work and now you come and you persecute people who are innocent." He said that and he was fainted and fell. And then they took him and that - so that...
[02:01:02] Interviewer: Did you parents - was your, your cousin, your mother's cousin, did you, did they visit your home? Did you go to their home?
[02:01:11] Naim Dallal: [overlap] Oh yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[02:01:13] Interviewer: And did you -
[02:01:14] Naim Dallal: And openly they were anti-Zionist.
[02:01:17] Interviewer: Openly anti-Zionist. So did you ever have conversations with him about his ideas? Did, you know, you were a young man. Did you talk to him about what he was doing?
[02:01:30] Naim Dallal: No, I wasn't young man, really, I was teenager at that time.
[02:01:36] Interviewer: Did you talk to him though?
[02:01:37] Naim Dallal: No, yes, he talked but we don't talk uh politics. Oh that a little boy, no.
[02:01:44] Interviewer: Did you talk to your parents about this?
[02:01:48] Naim Dallal: About that? Not really. They were not interested.
[02:01:51] Interviewer: Your parents weren't interested in...Did you uh...after 1948, did you listen to the radio Voice of Israel ever?
[02:02:04] Naim Dallal: Oh that, in secret.
[02:02:06] Interviewer: In secret.
[02:02:07] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[02:02:08] Interviewer: And how would you do that? What, tell me.
[02:02:10] Naim Dallal: You sit in a room, you close the doors and we would put the volume uh, low.
[02:02:18] Interviewer: And what were you afraid of?
[02:02:21] Naim Dallal: Why we do that? Oh, to open...to listen to Israel? Oh that a big, a big crime.
[02:02:35] Interviewer: So...
[02:02:35] Naim Dallal: Even if they want to uh, at that [?] charges, fabricated charges they will say, "I heard, he told us what he heard uh, in the radio of Israel, all is true. The radio of Baghdad is false." [02:02:57] So this why we hear it in uh, secret.
[02:03:03] Interviewer: So when, you're saying that when you were young, you played with Muslims and Christians and they came to your house and you went to their house. So as uh, uh, after the State of Israel is created, 1948, are these, are the Muslims still coming to your house?
[02:03:25] Naim Dallal: Oh yes.
[02:03:26] Interviewer: Christians - And your parents, your father is a broker.
[02:03:29] Naim Dallal: Yeah, yeah.
[02:03:30] Interviewer: And life is...
[02:03:31] Naim Dallal: They come, they eat in our house, then we eat in their house yeah.
[02:03:38] Interviewer: So nothing -
[02:03:39] Naim Dallal: Not those. They didn't.
[02:03:41] Interviewer: Nothing changes. So...when...
[02:03:45] Naim Dallal: You know, don't take me as example. The majority or the Jews, they were not so in contact with the [Unintelligible].
[02:03:54] Interviewer: So why was your family different?
[02:03:56] Naim Dallal: Not the family, the, oh because they were [overlap] with the government and uh that yeah.
[02:04:03] Interviewer: Because of the government.
[02:04:03] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[02:04:05] Interviewer: Um...
[02:04:06] Naim Dallal: And I studied in uh, um, multi-ethnic schools while the others only in parochial. They don't ha - they didn't have uh, the same uh...thinking of what I had.
[02:04:27] Interviewer: So they period between 1948 and 1951...many Jews leave Iraq.
[02:04:36] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[02:04:38] Interviewer: And you don't leave Iraq then. When do you leave Iraq?
[02:04:42] Naim Dallal: No, I didn't [go].
[02:04:43] Interviewer: Why did your family not leave?
[02:04:47] Naim Dallal: Oh because uh, we have a lot of property.
[02:04:51] Interviewer: Where was your property?
[02:04:53] Naim Dallal: Well, mostly in the south.
[02:04:57] Interviewer: Oh Baghdad.
[02:04:57] Naim Dallal: Yeah. Lands, mostly lands.
[02:05:01] Interviewer: Farmland? Or...
[02:05:02] Naim Dallal: Farmland yeah.
[02:05:04] Interviewer: And what was grown on the farmland?
[02:05:06] Naim Dallal: What's that?
[02:05:06] Interviewer: What agriculture, what did they grow on the farms?
[02:05:11] Naim Dallal: They didn't. They...give it to Muslim and they work on it.
[02:05:18] Interviewer: And the Muslims then gave money -
[02:05:21] Naim Dallal: They give uh, what they, they give it to the family.
[02:05:26] Interviewer: To the family.
[02:05:26] Naim Dallal: And this is mostly the Daniel.
[02:05:30] Interviewer: And so did your um, so let's go back to - for a second. You graduate high school, what did you do? Did you go to university? Did you...
[02:05:43] Naim Dallal: Oh yes.
[02:05:43] Interviewer: What university.
[02:05:45] Naim Dallal: I went to...uh, Beirut and Damascus.
[02:05:50] Interviewer: You went to Beirut and Damascus.
[02:05:52] Naim Dallal: Yes.
[02:05:53] Interviewer: Why did you -
[02:05:53] Naim Dallal: To the American, American university in Beirut and the Syrian university in Damascus.
[02:06:02] Interviewer: And what year did you go to the American university in Beirut?
[02:06:07] Naim Dallal: 1947.
[02:06:09] Interviewer: '47. Uh, so you were in uh, Beirut when Israel was founded?
[02:06:14] Naim Dallal: Yes. It was everything go right.
[02:06:19] Interviewer: Everything...and what did you study at the university?
[02:06:22] Naim Dallal: Well I studied dentistry.
[02:06:24] Interviewer: Dentistry. And then when did you go to Damascus? What year was that?
[02:06:32] Naim Dallal: Um...1943 you know.
[02:06:35] Interviewer: '43.
[02:06:36] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[02:06:36] Interviewer: So '43 you went to Damascus.
[02:06:38] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[02:06:39] Interviewer: And then in '47 you went to...
[02:06:42] Naim Dallal: Baghdad.
[02:06:43] Interviewer: [overlap]
[02:06:45] Naim Dallal: I graduated.
[02:06:46] Interviewer: '43 to '47 in...
[02:06:49] Naim Dallal: In both, Beirut and Damascus.
[02:06:53] Interviewer: In that four year period.
[02:06:54] Naim Dallal: Yes.
[02:06:55] Interviewer: And you came back in '47 as a dentist.
[02:06:58] Naim Dallal: Yes.
[02:06:59] Interviewer: And did you begin practicing?
[02:07:00] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[02:07:01] Interviewer: Dentist.
[02:07:02] Naim Dallal: and that, at that time the Syrian university we had many Jews and they were, were treated so good and nicely. There was not the Ba'ath, not the Ba'ath, there were the other regime. When the Ba'ath come, then, in Syria it started.
[02:07:29] Interviewer: So you're back in 1947. So you're now a dentist, the community is leaving between 1948 and 1951.
[02:07:39] Naim Dallal: I practice dentistry in Baghdad.
[02:07:42] Interviewer: And you're practicing dentistry. Who are your patients?
[02:07:47] Naim Dallal: Multi, multi-ethnic.
[02:07:49] Interviewer: Multi-ethnic.
[02:07:49] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[02:07:49] Interviewer: So do your patients know that you're Jewish?
[02:07:54] Naim Dallal: Oh yeah. They know.
[02:08:00] Interviewer: And it makes no difference?
[02:08:01] Naim Dallal: No, they love the, they love the Jewish doctors. Even the Muslims. They love the Jewish doctors. They trust them.
[02:08:14] Interviewer: And um, meanwhile you're saying that Jews couldn’t own property and they couldn't own businesses and...but they also are trusting the Jewish doctors.
[02:08:30] Naim Dallal: I didn't get...
[02:08:30] Interviewer: So the government is taking away the privileges, the rights of the Jews.
[02:08:34] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[02:08:36] Interviewer: On the one hand.
[02:08:37] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[02:08:38] Interviewer: And the people, the, the people who live in Baghdad, the Muslims are accepting that.
[02:08:47] Naim Dallal: Oh yeah.
[02:08:48] Interviewer: Okay. And you're also saying that these Muslims are going to the Jewish doctors and trusting them.
[02:08:56] Naim Dallal: Yes.
[02:08:57] Interviewer: So both go together.
[02:08:59] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[02:09:00] Interviewer: How do you explain that?
[02:09:02] Naim Dallal: Well, because they need them. Tell, I'll give another example to that. They trust the Jews for money.
[02:09:12] Interviewer: Money.
[02:09:14] Naim Dallal: Yes. And they, they used, we used to have in Baghdad merchant banking. One person...who uh, managed uh, the money of the others. [02:09:35] So Muslims they used to go to those Jews.
[02:09:41] Interviewer: For the banking.
[02:09:42] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[02:09:44] Interviewer: So when did things change again? So 1951 most of the Jewish community leaves.
[02:09:50] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[02:09:51] Interviewer: So now there's very few Jews. You're living there, still.
[02:09:56] Naim Dallal: Yeah, I am, yeah.
[02:09:58] Interviewer: Your parents are living there?
[02:10:00] Naim Dallal: No, after the - because I left Iraq in 1951.
[02:10:06] Interviewer: Oh you left in 1951.
[02:10:07] Naim Dallal: But not my family.
[02:10:08] Interviewer: You left.
[02:10:09] Naim Dallal: [overlap] My family left in 1977.
[02:10:13] Interviewer: What about your brothers? When did thy leave?
-[02:10:15] Naim Dallal: They stayed.
[02:10:17] Interviewer: So you left in 1951.
[02:10:19] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[02:10:19] Interviewer: Why did you leave?
[02:10:22] Naim Dallal: Because I looked what happened...and I know that we have no uh, future there. And I did that against the wish of my family. And from there I travelled to England.
[02:10:43] Interviewer: So were you, when you left were you denationalized? Did you lose your citizenship?
[02:10:48] Naim Dallal: To national...
[02:10:50] Interviewer: Did you lose your Iraqi citizenship?
[02:10:52] Naim Dallal: [overlap] Yes. Because I didn't return.
[02:10:55] Interviewer: Because you didn't return.
02:10:56] Naim Dallal: I should have returned after three months. When I didn't return automatically lose the nationality.
[02:11:04] Interviewer: and where did you go? You went to London?
[02:11:06] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[02:11:08] Interviewer: And how long did you stay in London?
[02:11:10] Naim Dallal: Six months.
[02:11:12] Interviewer: Why did you not - why did you leave London?
[02:11:17] Naim Dallal: Because I thought that Israel is the place.
[02:11:24] Interviewer: And did you go to Israel?
[02:11:26] Naim Dallal: Yes.
[02:11:27] Interviewer: and how long did you live in Israel?
[02:11:29] Naim Dallal: Seven years.
[02:11:30] Interviewer: Seven years. So you went from 1951 to 1958.
[02:11:36] Naim Dallal: Yes.
[02:11:36] Interviewer: '52 to '59, something...Okay, you went to Israel. Did the Jewish agency help you?
[02:11:44] Naim Dallal: Not, I mean, I had good relationship with the Jewish agency. I mean, to help me financial? No, I didn't need them.
[02:11:54] Interviewer: You didn't need that.
[02:11:55] Naim Dallal: No.
[02:11:56] Interviewer: So when you left you were able to take money with you out of Baghdad?
[02:12:01] Naim Dallal: Yes, I took money, yeah.
[02:12:03] Interviewer: You took money out with you. And you go to Israel and where do you live in Israel?
[02:12:09] Naim Dallal: In uh, Rama Tiskha [ph]
[02:12:12] Interviewer: Rama Tiskha [ph].
[02:12:12] Naim Dallal: But I lived - I worked in Tel Aviv.
[02:12:16] Interviewer: And did you work as a dentist?
[02:12:17] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[02:12:19] Interviewer: And did you have to - did you speak Hebrew?
[02:12:23] Naim Dallal: Well it wasn't difficult, within two months I learned.
[02:12:28] Interviewer: You - and, and um...
[02:12:32] Naim Dallal: But when I arrived, no. I didn't. But within two months uh, I mastered the language.
[02:12:40] Interviewer: And your patients were Iraqi or were there...
[02:12:45] Naim Dallal: No, because I worked with Kopat Hadium [ph], which is uh, affiliated to the Histatud [ph] yeah. And there, they come Iraqis, Ashkenazi’s, there...
[02:13:01] Interviewer: And did you speak Arabic to the...uh...Jews who came from Arab countries?
[02:13:08] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[02:13:09] Interviewer: So you'd speak Arabic. The Ashkenazi’s you would speak Hebrew? Or....
[02:13:13] Naim Dallal: Oh they will speak yeah.
[02:13:15] Interviewer: Hebrew. And did you speak English to anyone too?
[02:13:18] Naim Dallal: At the beginning.
[02:13:21] Interviewer: At the beginning.
[02:13:22] Naim Dallal: At the first uh, two three weeks...I spoke English.
[02:13:28] Interviewer: And did you ever spend any time in a mabarot?
[02:13:32] Naim Dallal: No. Because I didn't leave from Iraq to, directly. Those who left directly to Israel they live in mabarot.
[02:13:44] Interviewer: You came through London.
[02:13:45] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[02:13:50] Interviewer: Did you get married? Did you have a wife? Do you have a wife?
[02:13:54] Naim Dallal: Oh yes. I had wife.
[02:13:56] Interviewer: In, in, did you marry in Israel.
[02:13:59] Naim Dallal: In Baghdad.
[02:13:59] Interviewer: In Baghdad.
[02:14:00] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[02:14:01] Interviewer: Tell me about your wife in Baghdad. When did you...what was her name?
[02:14:05] Naim Dallal: Renée.
[02:14:07] Interviewer: And what was her family name?
[02:14:08] Naim Dallal: Mine?
[02:14:09] Interviewer: Your wife's.
[02:14:10] Naim Dallal: Uh...Yacoub [ph].
[02:14:12] Interviewer: Yacoub. And when did you marry her?
[02:14:15] Naim Dallal: In 1948.
[02:14:18] Interviewer: In 1948. And how did you meet her?
[02:14:22] Naim Dallal: Well it was...and there is some relationship also. And it wasn't difficult.
[02:14:32] Interviewer: Was she a cousin?
[02:14:33] Naim Dallal: Yes.
[02:14:35] Interviewer: So did you know her before?
[02:14:37] Naim Dallal: No, I uh...Uh, I, I am ten years older then her so I know her when she was born. [laughter] No really. Because we went to the hospital we said, oh, my aunt has a baby girl.
[02:15:00] Interviewer: Um...uh, when you married her, um, was she, was school did she go to in Baghdad?
[02:15:09] Naim Dallal: Where did she go? She went to the Alliance d'Israel.
[02:15:15] Interviewer: Alliance Israelite. So she spoke French and English?
[02:15:18] Naim Dallal: Yeah, she speak English and French, Arabic and Hebrew yeah.
[02:15:22] Interviewer: ...and Hebrew. And, and uh, did she have a job or was she a housewife?
[02:15:30] Naim Dallal: Housewife.
[02:15:31] Interviewer: So when you went to London she came to London with you?
[02:15:34] Naim Dallal: Together. And we had one son, two years old.
[02:15:39] Interviewer: And what was his name?
[02:15:40] Naim Dallal: Joe. Jo - Youssef.
[02:15:42] Interviewer: Josef. And then did you have more children?
[02:15:47] Naim Dallal: Uh, in Israel yeah.
[02:15:48] Interviewer: In Israel. And what are their names and when were they born?
[02:15:53] Naim Dallal: Who?
[02:15:54] Interviewer: Your children. Your children's names. The, when you were in Israel you had more children. You said - what was the children, what is the child's name?
[02:16:03] Naim Dallal: Josef, that one born in Baghdad. Aida.
[02:16:09] Interviewer: Aida.
[02:16:09] Naim Dallal: That's it.
[02:16:11] Interviewer: And what year was Aida born?
[02:16:13] Naim Dallal: 1952.
[02:16:14] Interviewer: In Israel.
[02:16:15] Naim Dallal: Yeah. And the other two born here.
[02:16:18] Interviewer: And the other - then two were born here. Okay. So let's talk about Israel. So why did you not stay in Israel?
[02:16:25] Naim Dallal: Why I didn't? Because my in-laws all left and they went to England. So I thought to be with the family.
[02:16:39] Interviewer: So you went to London, you go to Israel because you want to be in Israel.
[02:16:43] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[02:16:44] Interviewer: Did you - to be, to go from London to Israel, would you consider yourself a Zionist?
[02:16:53] Naim Dallal: [Unintelligible]
[02:16:55] Interviewer: I mean, why did you go - you went to Israel because you felt...
[02:16:58] Naim Dallal: Yeah, I felt [Unintelligible]. Yes.
[02:17:00] Interviewer: Would you, would you say a Zionist? You felt Zionistic?
[02:17:05] Naim Dallal: No, well, Zionist because I want Israel to be to the Jews.
[02:17:09] Interviewer: To be to the Jews. Your in-laws leave - when do they leave Baghdad? What year does your in-laws leave Baghdad?
[02:17:19] Naim Dallal: When they left?
[02:17:20] Interviewer: Yeah.
[02:17:22] Naim Dallal: Her brother left...in 19, I think '52. No, the late '50's.
[02:17:36] Interviewer: In the late [overlap] '50's.
[02:17:36] Naim Dallal: The late 40's.
[02:17:38] Interviewer: And they go to London.
[02:17:39] Naim Dallal: To London to study in London.
[02:17:41] Interviewer: And they stayed...
[02:17:42] Naim Dallal: [overlap] and they stay.
[02:17:43] Interviewer: And they stay.
[02:17:45] Naim Dallal: He.
[02:17:45] Interviewer: He stays.
[02:17:46] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[02:17:47] Interviewer: Okay so when you go to London, she has a brother living in London.
[02:17:51] Naim Dallal: Yes.
[02:17:52] Interviewer: Okay. You go to Israel and you say you're, you left Israel because the family, your wife's family was in London?
[02:18:02] Naim Dallal: Yes.
[02:18:04] Interviewer: So her parents came to London.
[02:18:06] Naim Dallal: They, they are came to London on their way to Canada.
[02:18:12] Interviewer: They came to London - so, they, when did they leave, when did they leave Baghdad?
[02:18:18] Naim Dallal: I think in 19...'53, '54 yeah.
[02:18:25] Interviewer: So they’re now in Canada? Her parents?
[02:18:28] Naim Dallal: They come to Canada yeah.
[02:18:30] Interviewer: They come to Canada so, I'm trying to understand. So you're living in Israel.
[02:18:34] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[02:18:35] Interviewer: And her parents are now living in Canada.
[02:18:38] Naim Dallal: No.
[02:18:39] Interviewer: Okay I'm not understanding.
[02:18:39] Naim Dallal: They were in Baghdad still.
[02:18:42] Interviewer: Okay so you went to Israel in 1952.
[02:18:45] Naim Dallal: Yes.
[02:18:46] Interviewer: You stayed 7 years.
[02:18:47] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[02:18:48] Interviewer: When you leave, you leave, I'm not understanding. You leave, why do you leave Israel? Because...
[02:18:55] Naim Dallal: Yeah, because I left in 1959 and they came to Canada in 1956.
[02:19:06] Interviewer: And you wife wants to be with her parents.
[02:19:08] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[02:19:09] Interviewer: So you leave Israel...because you want to be with...
[02:19:17] Naim Dallal: With the family.
[02:19:17] Interviewer: With the family. And where is your family then? Your parents?
[02:19:23] Naim Dallal: In Iraq.
[02:19:24] Interviewer: Still in Iraq.
[02:19:25] Naim Dallal: Yeah. They left 1977.
[02:19:28] Interviewer: '77. So you then go to Toron- where? Toronto? Montreal? Where are her parents living? Rena's parents.
[02:19:38] Naim Dallal: Yes, in Toronto.
[02:19:39] Interviewer: In Toronto. And was it easy to get a visa?
[02:19:43] Naim Dallal: To Toronto?
[02:19:44] Interviewer: Yes.
[02:19:45] Naim Dallal: At that time it was very difficult to come to Ca - at that time. Later on it will, it became easy.
[02:19:53] Interviewer: So how did you get one? Did you go to Canadian embassy? How did you get a visa?
[02:19:58] Naim Dallal: No, because you cannot apply in the, in the uh...in, in Tel Aviv. you have to apply in Ottawa. So they apply on our behalf. And then they are transferred the application to Tel Aviv.
[02:20:18] Interviewer: And um, what did you feel when you left Israel? You were there, was it a hard life? What was life like for you?
[02:20:27] Naim Dallal: [overlap] No, it was not hard life. No. I was very happy there.
[02:20:35] Interviewer: And so were you sad when you left? Were you sad when you left Israel?
[02:20:41] Naim Dallal: Oh yeah, it was difficult, yeah.
[02:20:46] Interviewer: And...
[02:20:46] Naim Dallal: ...and I went to visit many times.
[02:20:49] Interviewer: So you come to Toronto and did you become a dentist in Toronto?
[02:20:56] Naim Dallal: No, I was dentist before.
[02:20:58] Interviewer: Right, but when you come to Toronto...
[02:20:59] Naim Dallal: I was dentist.
[02:21:01] Interviewer: You become a dentist again.
[02:21:02] Naim Dallal: Yes but I have to go to the school in Toronto. I went three years.
[02:21:07] Interviewer: Three year dental school to be...where...
[02:21:10] Naim Dallal: Because it was five years, they give me credit two years. The reason they do this because there are many...uh, European dentists they come so they make it difficult. You write entrance exam before you go to accept as student in Toro - U of T.
[02:21:39] Interviewer: So you become a dentist in Toronto.
[02:21:41] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[02:21:42] Interviewer: And do you, in Toronto, do you um, you have two more children you say.
[02:21:48] Naim Dallal: Yes.
[02:21:49] Interviewer: And what are their names?
[02:21:50] Naim Dallal: Aida and Steven.
[02:21:54] Interviewer: And what year are they bo - what years?
[02:21:56] Naim Dallal: Aida 1952...
[02:22:00] Interviewer: Aidia is in Israel in 1952.
[02:22:04] Naim Dallal: Yes. Uh Aida in Israel, Laura born here in, in 1963.
[02:22:12] Interviewer: And Steven?
[02:22:13] Naim Dallal: Steven 1968.
[02:22:18] Interviewer: So you're now living here. You have a family, four children, yes?
[02:22:22] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[02:22:23] Interviewer: And...
[02:22:23] Naim Dallal: All of them lawyers.
[02:22:25] Interviewer: All of them lawyers.
[02:22:27] Naim Dallal: And the grandson also lawyer.
[02:22:29] Interviewer: So like a minion of lawyers.
[02:22:31] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[02:22:32] Interviewer: So the...um...what language do you speak to your wife in Toronto? At home? What language do you -
[02:22:41] Naim Dallal: Mostly Arabic.
[02:22:43] Interviewer: What language did you speak to the children?
[02:22:46] Naim Dallal: English.
[02:22:47] Interviewer: Do your children -
[02:22:47] Naim Dallal: But they understand Arabic.
[02:22:48] Interviewer: The understand Arabic. But they...um, but they speak English.
[02:22:55] Naim Dallal: Yeah. And they know, they know very well how to call names in Arabic.
[02:23:02] Interviewer: [laughter] Uh did um, your children, did they have a bar mitzvah?
[02:23:09] Naim Dallal: Yes.
[02:23:11] Interviewer: And did you become a member of a synagogue here?
[02:23:13] Naim Dallal: Holy Blossom.
[02:23:14] Interviewer: Holy Blossom.
[02:23:16] Naim Dallal: And everybody's married.
[02:23:20] Interviewer: Everyone is married. Now did, when your, your uh, did you um, your friends, you, in Toronto you met friends. Were they uh, Iraqis? Did you met any Iraqis here?
[02:23:36] Naim Dallal: there was. We were the first to come.
[02:23:39] Interviewer: You were the first to come.
[02:23:40] Naim Dallal: My, my brother-in-law, I think, was the first or the second one from Iraq. We were maybe number nine or ten.
[02:23:52] Interviewer: And so -
[02:23:52] Naim Dallal: ...to come to Toronto.
[02:23:54] Interviewer: So there was very few Iraqis in Toronto.
[02:23:56] Naim Dallal: There were none.
[02:23:57] Interviewer: There were none.
[02:23:57] Naim Dallal: No.
[02:23:58] Interviewer: Were there uh, were there Moroccans, where there other Sephardi in Toronto then?
[02:24:05] Naim Dallal: Walking [?].
[02:24:06] Interviewer: That you met. Did you meet any other Sephardi in the 1960's in Toronto?
[02:24:11] Naim Dallal: Sepharadic. I don't think, no.
[02:24:16] Interviewer: So later you became uh, involved in, in uh, the Iraqi community. can you tell me what you, what you did?
[02:24:27] Naim Dallal: In...
[02:24:28] Interviewer: In Toronto.
[02:24:30] Naim Dallal: So, I was the founder of the Iraqi Jewish Association. We registered it as charity so we had, we used to meet in high holidays and we used to have uh, a parties and we invite people to come to lecture. [02:24:56] We had judges, ministers, so many. I mean, we raised good...um, and now we are permanent uh, synagogue rented, the Iraqi.
[02:25:14] Interviewer: Where?
[02:25:15] Naim Dallal: In uh, with uh, Kehila Sephardi.
[02:25:22] Interviewer: So why did you create this Iraqi organization? why did you do that?
[02:25:27] Naim Dallal: Well, to keep our culture. And we succeeded [really].
[02:25:32] Interviewer: So to keep the culture. Who...
[02:25:35] Naim Dallal: And the religion and that.
[02:25:37] Interviewer: Okay, so let me understand this. You said that there were very few Iraqis.
[02:25:42] Naim Dallal: There weren't. Later on they come.
[02:25:45] Interviewer: They started to come. And how did you meet them? How did you...
[02:25:48] Naim Dallal: They come to our house.
[02:25:50] Interviewer: Why did they come to your house?
[02:25:51] Naim Dallal: Because they know I am...
[02:25:53] Interviewer: How did they know who you were?
[02:25:55] Naim Dallal: They tell them.
[02:25:56] Interviewer: They - who is they?
[02:25:58] Naim Dallal: Ted will tell them. No, really.
[02:26:03] Interviewer: [laughter] So they would come to your house and what would you do? When they came and they saw you, what would you do?
[02:26:10] Naim Dallal: They ask me what to do, how is there, what to do, you know.
[02:26:15] Interviewer: And so...
[02:26:15] Naim Dallal: And gradually...they uh...they are, they are more and more.
[02:26:23] Interviewer: And you were the like the uh, the prophet, the judge, the...how would you describe yourself?
[02:26:33] Naim Dallal: Why....
[02:26:34] Interviewer: Why - they came to you for advice. They came to you for help.
[02:26:39] Naim Dallal: Where, where they work or they want to go to school or...
[02:26:46] Interviewer: And was your wife also active, helping them? Helping the wives?
[02:26:50] Naim Dallal: As, as matter of fact my wife was the president of the Iraqi Jewish Association for 30 years after I left to the [Unintelligible] and that she took over. For 30 years she was.
[02:27:08] Interviewer: For 30 years she was the president. Wow. And in these activities that people would come to, where, where were they? Where, what place was it that?
[02:27:21] Naim Dallal: They come to our house.
[02:27:23] Interviewer: They'd come to your house. And your - did your wife cook Sephardi food at all? Would she cook Iraqi food, your wife?
[02:27:32] Naim Dallal: Yeah, she made them, yeah.
[02:27:35] Interviewer: So you continued to have Iraqi food?
[02:27:36] Naim Dallal: So what happened, because they come now more...they don't [need] to come to me because they all work with themselves. And there is the association. They are doctors and they are lawyers.
[02:27:55] Interviewer: And you went on to Jewish congress?
[02:27:58] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[02:27:58] Interviewer: What did you do at Jewish Congress? Tell me your activities at Jewish congress.
[02:28:04] Naim Dallal: Whatever they - about the Jewish Ethiopia, about the Jews from Russia, the Jews from Syria and Jews from the Arab land.
[02:28:17] Interviewer: So did you work with uh, people like Irwin Kepler?
[02:28:21] Naim Dallal: Oh yes. I am proud to say that.
[02:28:26] Interviewer: And what about with people like Judy Feltcar [ph].
[02:28:33] Naim Dallal: I would like to answer that in private.
[02:28:37] Interviewer: Okay. I'm trying to think...did you work with [overlap]
[02:28:43] Naim Dallal: Yeah we did, she worked for the Syrian Jews, I helped her a lot.
[02:28:50] Interviewer: Irving Arbela [ph]?
[02:28:52] Naim Dallal: Oh yes, he's a nice person. Yes, we did. And his wife.
[02:28:57] Interviewer: And his wife. And did you work with him on Soviet Jewry? Soviet Jews.
[02:29:03] Naim Dallal: Yes. Yeah.
[02:29:05] Interviewer: Did you ever go to visit uh, Russia?
[02:29:08] Naim Dallal: No.
[02:29:10] Interviewer: And when the Russians came here, did you help, what would you do if you...
[02:29:16] Naim Dallal: We didn't uh, we did the congress.
[02:29:19] Interviewer: So within the congress.
[02:29:21] Naim Dallal: Yeah.
[02:29:21] Interviewer: Did you hold a...
[02:29:22] Naim Dallal: And the Ethiopian Jews.
[02:29:24] Interviewer: And Ethiopian Jews. Did you hold a position in congress?
[02:29:28] Naim Dallal: To?
[02:29:29] Interviewer: Were you an officer or did you become the president? Did you have a position in congress?
[02:29:34] Naim Dallal: Yes.
[02:29:35] Interviewer: What?
[02:29:35] Naim Dallal: I reached to the national chairman.
[02:29:38] Interviewer: You were the national chairman.
[02:29:39] Naim Dallal: Chairman of Jews in Arab land.
[02:29:42] Interviewer: Of Jews in Arab lands. And um, did you work uh, did you work with people in New York, or in Washington? Any names of people that you worked with for Jews for Arab lands?
[02:30:02] Naim Dallal: Maurice Shoher [ph].
[02:30:02] Interviewer: Maurice Shoher.
[02:30:04] Naim Dallal: In Toronto for example uh, Anoir Shahin [ph]. Yeah.
[02:30:10] Interviewer: Did you work with Maurice Benzacar?
[02:30:14] Naim Dallal: In the congress.
[02:30:15] Interviewer: In the congress. Um...Okay so let me, let me ask you some last questions then. Um...how do you see - what is your identity? How would you define yourself?
[02:30:34] Naim Dallal: I define...faithful Jew. Political in the centre. With my age now...I am not so active as I was before. But I have been called for consultation from others, you know.
[02:31:05] Interviewer: Uh, would you see yourself uh, do you see yourself as a Canadian? An Iraqi? Do you... how do you...
[02:31:12] Naim Dallal: Canadian.
[02:31:14] Interviewer: Canadian. What do you, what do you keep of your Iraqi heritage? How would you describe your Iraqi heritage?
[02:31:24] Naim Dallal: Well, I will say it was good and I am proud of it.
[02:31:30] Interviewer: And, okay. Um...do you see yourself as a refugee? An immigrant? How do you see yourself?
[02:31:41] Naim Dallal: Well, I see that - immigrant.
[02:31:46] Interviewer: An immigrant. So let me ask you one last question and that is that people who will listen to your interview, what message do you want to give to them?
[02:32:02] Naim Dallal: Well I will say to encourage them to, to work to promote, to promote...the heritage and uh, unity with the rest of Jews from the Middle-East. Well, that doesn’t mean to be outside the Jews of Canada but to involve, and especially young people.
[02:32:43] Interviewer: Thank you very, very....
[02:32:45] Man: Ask if he has any interesting story that he would particularly like to share with us.
[02:32:51] Interviewer: Is there some special story you would like to share with us? From Iraq. Some special story?
[02:33:00] Naim Dallal: When I was in Iraq?
[02:33:01] Interviewer: Yes. Or anything. Any story. Is there any special story you would like - in Iraq or in Canada? Would you like to share some story with us?
[02:33:12] Naim Dallal: Well I have to think about it. There are many. [02:33:21] Well, in Canada, for example, I am uh....I, I had...to work with Jews also I worked with the Muslims and Christians and I was founder of the Canada-Iraqi...uh, Society, a long time ago. [02:33:56] With Mus - there were Muslims. I discussed with them about Jews and they were pro-Jewish, Jewish. That I think it was achievement. [02:34:14] Where...most of the Jews, they don't want to...get involved but I thought to be involved with the other peop - ethnic, and especially Muslim and the Christian, that it will help the Jews.
[02:34:40] Interviewer: So your uh, work in terms of Congress, your work in terms of the Canada-Iraqi Society, these different things uh, is, is uh, uh, part of your message that uh, a message of, of what? How would you describe that message? What would your message be? If you...
[02:35:06] Naim Dallal: That...by working with the Muslims we can explain - we can share with them what happened to the Jews in Iraq. And there are now many newspapers in Arabic where they talk about Jews. Good. And they mention what the Jews did in Iraq. [02:35:37] And uh, I had...some interview with...with one professor Muslims, his name Kadam Habib [ph]. He's a writer and well - and to speak about what happened to the Jews in Iraq. And he, he wrote about that.
[02:36:06] Interviewer: Thank you so much for sharing that last story and thank you for the interview.
[02:36:12] Naim Dallal: Nice to meet you.
[02:36:13] Interviewer: Thank you. You're going to do a ...
[02:36:18] Naim Dallal: Did you see that picture of the army?
[02:36:21]