Interview date: 10/9/2017

Interviewer: Uzi Rabi

Location: Montreal, Canada

Total time: 1:26:59

Mike Yuval: Born in Baghdad, Iraq. Arrived in Israel in 1951. Arrived in Canada (year not given). 

SV: So can I have your full name?

MY: My name is Mike Yuval.

SV: What was your name at birth?

MY: Mayer (last name unclear)

SV: Where were you born?

MY: Baghdad

SV: Let me thank you for participating in the project Sephardi Voices. And I would like to ask you if you can tell us something about your family's background.

MY: When my my family, my father, was orthodox, he was going to the synagogue very, very often. In fact, everyday. And then...he has a business as well, as I mentioned, in the cowhide..people used to bring down from the mountain to Baghdad, Iraq, and he was in this business.

[00:01:17] And mainly our family...(unclear) family, we came as a matter of fact from Yehuda. (unclear name) was related to our family.

SV: Can you tell us something about your grand-parents?

MY: Unfortunately not much. I don't think that I remember that ever met them. Not really. 

SV: Any memory that was delivered by your parents about your grand-parents?

MY: No. I don't remember. 

SV: My Mom married in Iraq...Baghdad, and I believe it was arranged between her and my Dad. And they are both in Iraq, Baghdad.

SV: What were the names of your grand-parents? Do you remember?

[00:02:34] MY: I believe his Dad, is (name) and his Mom could be Masri? I don't remember.

SV: And the maternal side?

MY: My Mom? Obviously, we didn't have many name. Her Dad's name was also (name) Halima.

SV: Something about their education? Something about their neighbourhood in Iraq? That was the same place where you were growing up?

MY: Yes, yes. Well talk about the education...my Mom did not go to school at the time, and she took care of kids, my family, my brother and sisters. She could not read and write, and my Dad decided, as far as I can remember, I was quite young, that he was kind of (word unclear) full-time. I don't know what school he went to.

[00:03:47] SV: How did they meet and get married?

MY: I think the marriage was arranged. That's what I heard. At the time you did not meet people from clubs. These parents of this man introduced to the parents of the woman and they get married.

SV: What was your father's name?

MY: Ovadia(?) 

SV: First name because this is in Hebrew...

MY: Abdallah(?) (second name?) 

[00:04:17] SV: Where was he born?

MY: In Baghdad, Iraq as well.

SV: And his profession please?

MY: His profession, he was in the cowhide business. People used to bring the cowhide from the mountain, and then bring it to Baghdad, Iraq. And he was buying them and selling them. He was a businessman.

SV: Your mother's name? 

MY: My mother was not involved in any of the ownership...?

SV: Her name?

MY: Nahima(?) Halima. And she was born in Baghdad, Iraq.

SV: And that was her mainden name, I guess?

MY: Yes.

SV: How old were they when they got married, your parents?

MY: I would like...my guess is around 20 years, 20 years old, if I can guess. We didn't keep date at the time of anything, but I believe according to my sibling, they were married around when they were 20 years.

[00:05:29] SV: And what did she do? She was housewife?

MY: Yes, she was housewife. 

SV: Any special activities she took, in her daily life outside or inside?

MY: No activity whatsoever, as far as my Mom is concerned. And as far as my Dad, we did not have any kind of hobby beside Mom was taking care of the house, the household and the kids, and my Dad was working and most of the time quite a bit of the time, everyday, was going to the synagogue and praying. So this, I would like to say this was his main hobby was.

SV: Hmm. And your Mom actually always at home but very active in terms of raising the kids and just...

MY: Well, she had a handful of raising 10 kids, raising almost at the same time, because the gap between the oldest sister and the youngest sister, wasn't far, which is 1.5 years or 2 years maximum, which is, obviously when you're raising 10 kids this age, it's quite busy. 

[00:06:56] MY: And running the house and cooking and I think most of her time was cooking and taking care of the house. 

SV: So it's time to move to your sibling, brothers and sister, actually. Can you tell us how many were they and...

MY: Six sisters, and with me, 4 brothers. And we all went to school. Some of us went to (name unclear) and then after my brother went to, after he graduated elementary school, he went to Shamash school. 

SV: Can you tell us somethings about them? I mean... you talk previously about the oldest and the youngest, but something that you can tell us about the whole family? There was assistance for your Mom at home, any servants?

MY: Well, since we were a big family -- 10, and all went to school, Hannah, the oldest sister, and Sophie, the second one, they helped Mom as much as they could because they went to school all of them. 

[00:08:28] MY: And then my brother, oldest one, tried to help with business with my Dad, but the rest of us, we were young, and we all occupied in school and especially with the girls at the time. I went to school and it was not so easy because certain exam if you take, could have been on a Saturday, because when you take exam, if I'm not mistaken, if you take them Saturday and Saturday was Shabbat and it was not so easy to have the exam...it was kind of a saga...I cannot forget it now, but my sister could not go and graduate the school because they had to go to Shabbat and try the exam and this was a no-no in the eyes of my father. So all of the kids, the two of them would go to school...as a matter of fact I remember now...the first brother my Father wanted him to follow his steps and maybe be a rabbi, and then what he did for the first part (Joseph?), he told him he become a mohel and shohet...

[00:09:48] Then my mother realized although she could not write and read, she realized it was not a profession and she did everything possible that the second brother, (name) would go to school, Shamash, and graduate and that's something she did till today, it helped him quite a bit when we came with this education, then he went to Eureope and became an architect, only because of the education that my mother made sure that he would graduate from hight school back home, back in Iraq, Shamash. 

[00:10:21] SV: Let's talk about life in Iraq. What would be your earliest memories?

MY: The life in Iraq was extremely limited at the time, we could not go wherever we wanted at the time. I remember when myself and brother Ytzak, the difference between us a year and a half, we went to school and then, to school my mother accompanied us, and then from school to the home we walked. And during the time we walked the Arabs were around, the kids, and they were throwing stones at us. They were tearing our shirts for no reason. My Mom, I will never forget it, she would hold us by her hands and she pleaded with the other kids, why you beating us? why you throwing stones? why you tearing shirts? 

[00:11:17] MY: And obviously no one answered, they did whatever they had to do. It was ordeal to go to school and obviously my Mother made sure to give us food that we did not go anywhere to eat outside the school and she made sure to pick us up from school and the same story happened on the way home. So it was extremely...we had quite a bit of fear on where to go, when to go, with whom to go. It was so easy, wasn't so easy at all. 

[00:11:49] SV: What was the name of the neighbourhood where you grew up? Or the street? Was it the Jewish quarter in Baghdad?

MY: Yes. If I'm not mistaken, Barb Al-Sharqi

SV: Barb Al-Sharqi?

MY: Yeah, Barb Al-Sharqi, yeah.

SV: It was know to be....definitely

MY: Any social circles you, your parents were involved in, in Baghdad? So when you mingled socially with people, it was pretty Jewish ceremony or synagogue, or was there something outside that too?

MY: No, only the synagogue. You see, my father was extremely religious and I would like to say that he was quite fanatical when it came to those things. So it was extremely limited. Anything done should have been only at the synagogue. So there was no other activity that we did beside the synagogue. Every morning before we went to school we used to go with him early to the synagogue. Early enough. Early enough. And pray there. 

[00:13:09] MY: And then from synagogue come home and from there changing and wait for Mom to take us to school. So this was the main activity that we had there, but obviously I was quite young so when I left this did not continue. We went to kibbutz so all those things stopped. 

SV: Any Jewish friends from that period of childhood in Iraq? Jewish friends you can remember, have an anecdote about one of them, or a specific story?

MY:  I would like to say more family from the side of my mother. They used to come and visit. We...I don't remember that we used to visit...yes.. we had some neighbours, we visit them; they visit us. but social activity, I don't remember that much.

SV: Or the extended family?

MY: Yeah, I don't remember...

SV: Any Jewish friends in Iraq that you remember?

[00:14:20] MY: From the side of my father, I would like to say friends but more colleagues. People who worked with him and for him, yes we did visit them. I remember at the time that my father thought that to to go and visit one of them was a (name), was a very nice event, and we stay overnight. I remember very well they had so much food on the floor, on the carpet, but at the time, clearly we had to look at the eyes of my Dad if we may eat, if we may not eat, and the order was not to eat because my father wanted to make sure that everything was kosher. So we were deprived from all the food they gave us, and we got the order from Dad and that's it: No. 

[00:15:20] MY: Because we were extremely religious and... I asked my Dad, what was the reason behind that he did not want us to eat the food that had nothing to do with meat and milk. We were kids at the time and we were quite hungry and I really did not get any explanation. But this was what the rules were and you comply with the rules.

SV: Any out-of-home activities with other children? Doing sports? Football in the street? 

MY: Um, no not really because to be involved with them at our age, it was kind of hostile over there. We have our own activity with limited toys, very limited, and we play with the toys, with some wheels, some balls...we played on the street. But we did not have friends as I say from other...because it was kind of a hostile situation. 

SV: What languages were spoken at home? 

MY: Arabic

[00:16:31] SV: If I would ask you about your family, just a few favourites expressions or idioms or sayings, something that was there, day and night, and was to characterize your life in Iraq, as a family. Do you have somethings in mind to provide us with?

MY: Yes. Obviously at my age at the time, I could not say much. Even if you want to say something, when you have nine people ahead of you, nine siblings so by the time you talk it's too late. Yes, it could have been, because I know other people... and I'm sure there were other activities beside going to synagogue...maybe...in hindsight, I...mind you, this was bothering me that only what we did back home in Iraq: synagogue and family and my mother and school, and nothing (there) was nothing more than that. 

[00:17:45] MY: And my father, I would like to say, he was extremely stubborn to do what he did. Fast-forward when I got married, I made a decision to go to Israel and meet him -- he was in Jerusalem -- and I really wanted to talk to him and ask him, what happened then back home in Iraq? Because certain things we ask him, we did not get any answer...this was his way or the highway. We could not express ourselves and ask (?) the thing to do or not to do and we wanted to get some explanation because when you're young and you're a kid, you want to know certain things.

[00:18:33] And I went to ask him, with my wife at the time, we sat together, my wife and him and myself. This was in Jerusalem. And I ask him, Dad, back home, you were very stubborn. You did everything your way. We did not know much more than go to synagogue. And at home you're very extreme, we could not talk much; we could not do much; everything have to be your way. Can you tell me now -- I'm not criticizing you -- tell me now, I'd like to learn what to do and what not to do in my life. Now is the time to listen to you. I sat with my Dad for approximately one hour. And I talked to him, any way or shape. To tell me, his behaviour, his thinking, his relationship to my Mom, his relationship to (name?), my sister, that he did not want her to make her exam, and this affected her quite a bit, because she was very good in class...

[00:19:41] got (get?) 100 everyday, and when you go to the government and do the exam or shabbat and then he did not let her go, he made sure that my brother will watch her: she should not go and do her exam and my brother at the time, didn't know (because) he was young, and he complied with the rules of my father and he make sure she would not go there to school, and she failed. Then I ask him: What was the reason behind it? And I'm not criticizing you. Tell me. And one hour, he did not say one word. And after one hour, I stood and I said, Dad, you did not say anything. But your silence for me did a lot. You said a lot me. A lot. Although he didn't say anything, silence has also something. 

[00:20:38] And mind you, I have to admit one thing...I learned in my life what to do from my Mother. She was very open. She taught us. She was there for us. And a lot of things she told me and I'm really shocked and surprised that she could not read and write. She got wisdom. And today, the weakness and the stubbornness (I moved away?) from my father. Anytime that I have to deal with something, I don't delay till tomorrow; I do it today. And I always talk to myself and I said, Don't ever repeat or do any weakness or anything, and don't ever be fanatic as your Dad. 

[00:21:17] However, it's very difficult to judge people. You learn from people. And it's your decision, my decision, what I should, what I should not do. But it was quite a bit a lesson for me what my Dad did at the time. It was quite a bit a lesson for me. 

SV: When you talk to him, always it was in Arabic or other language?

MY: In Iraq, I talk to him in Arabic. In Israel, I talk to him in Hebrew. And a few words in Arabic here and there. Because my Arabic was weaker, not because I forget, obviously Arabic, but when you don't use it, when you come to the age of 10-11, go to kibbutz and then after that go to (name?) and go to the Army, and go...you mingle with other people in Hebrew...

[00:22:10] Then you don't use the language and I left (at the time?). But mind you, I understand everything obviously. So I would like to say my main communication was with him, in Hebrew. And some Arabic in highlight. 

SV: What schools did you have in Iraq? 

MY: Alliance.

SV: Ok. And in Alliance you talked to non-Jewish students?

(some co-talking)

MY: There were only Jews there.

(some co-talking)

SV: There were French there, or...?

MY: Yes, we learned French elementary in the beginning, yeah. Mind you, if I went to school given and take around the age of 6, and I went 2 years and I was sick as I mentioned before and I missed quite a bit, I think 2 years, I was not well, and then after that, we went to Israel. 

SV: Any special memory of your schooling days? Something that you would glean from there?

[00:23:13] MY: Yes, I have to admit now that back in Iraq, the discipline was wonderful. The teacher walked...you were afraid to look at him...and the manager, the top guy, the one in charge of the school, we had respect for him...we were afraid...and you don't talk to the, you always call them "Sir". Fast-forward when we came to Israel, it was a different story. You don't have a feel for them, not because we didn't have respect. In Israel, you were more free, you talked to them, they talked to you, the whole thing was different. I felt the discipline in Iraq wasn't bad altogether; it was nice to give respect to teachers. I'm not saying we didn't give respect in Israel, but it was more loose.

[00:24:15] SV: Did you happen actually to feel that there is kind of a French or British character in the schooling system? Something that was beyond actually the Iraq of then? Something that would brought in from the out(side)?

MY: Yes, obviously we had something of learning education back there. It was the same in Israel, we learned a bit of English, a bit of French, a bit of Arabic. (words unclear about Hebrew, Arabic). At the beginning, there was a little bit of English, so yeah it was a different education.

SV: Any membership in sports or social club while in school?

MY: In Israel? 

SV: No, Iraq.

MY: No, no. In the school of Alliance, I believe was Shamash, they had a place inside the school to play volleyball. And they only special people played volleyball. Especially, if you know how to play, if you're advanced. And I don't know if they have a place for everyone. My brother(?) was a top-notch player, so we used to go and watch him. He was playing volleyball.

[00:25:43] SV: So basically it was two main frameworks. School and home.

MY: That's right.

SV: And any experience that was out of school time. Activities that were taken in-between or something like that?

MY: Yes. We -- badly at the time -- wanted to do some activity, and the only activity was we could do with the Jews was swimming. To cross the river. And then because my ...

SV: Which river? Tigris?

MY: Yes. And then we want to belong to this group and it wasn't so easy because my father was against it, I don't know why. But my mother knew that it was better for us to learn how to swim. This was a big event for us. To get together all the Jewish boys and they taught us how to swim. And at the time, they gave you two pieces of wood (I don't know the name...) so you can float. In a tube also holding. And we learned how to swim. It was a big event, to swim to the other side. And by then, it was the same story again and again, and we swim all of us to the other shore. But before we get to the other shore, we get stoned; the Arab boys were throwing stones at us. We get a little bit (word?). 

[00:27:22] MY: And still today, I don't know, we were not afraid. I guess with some many people, you try to go there and then they're throwing stones at us on a daily basis. We walked a little bit and back to the river and go to the other side. This was the biggest event that I remember. 

SV: Doing something with food on the banks of the river. Is this something you...?

MY: Anything? No, because we could not (word) with food there, there was nowhere to buy the food. No. Nothing. I guess we came back, obviously my Mom was waiting of us, and she had a sandwich waiting for us, something to drink. This was the biggest event. 

SV: Let me take you back to your daily community life and ask you to what extent your father was dominant when it comes to social life. He was very active when it comes to the community; he was well known,...

MY: Yes, my father was very well-known in the community, very well known. Especially in the synagogue, he helped a lot. Today I can tell that he helped more than he should. To the best of my knowledge, whenever you make money: first your family, then synagogue. I think for my father at the time, he was so religious, first for him was synagogue, then family. Then he was very well-known...in the synagogue. 

[00:29:02] MY: And although I didn't know him personally, he helped them quite a bit...helped the kids, whatever he could. Whatever they asked him, he did it. 

SV: Back home, when it comes to food experiences, what were preparing at home? Your mother, your grandmother? Which food you were fond of? What sort of kitchen you had?

MY: Naturally, tebit, it was very famous. And my mother, she was a very good cook. In fact, she was teaching my sister, and my very own wife and she is not from that area, she knows also how to make tebit. But this dominated obviously for Friday evening and Saturday, and the rest of the week, in the morning, she used to get for us this (word?) and then the famous bread, and she was cooking chicken and rice...and (other names unclear). This was the main food. But every Friday, she made sure tebit was there. 

SV: Any specific food when it comes to specific holiday?

MY: I don't remember...Sukkot obviously we were sitting in the sukkah decorating, we have all those fruits hanging there. This was very nice ritual for us. Wonderful days. Pessah, my Mom used to bake the matzoh. At the time, there was no matzoh like pita...She used to do it herself. This was wonderful and tasty, I guess no one asked her how she did it. It was difficult now...and very, not so modern way of doing it now, but I guess that's she way she did it. 

[00:31:22] MY: This was for us an extreme ritual. It was wonderful to wait for the holiday to see what my Mom did something different than every day.

SV: The way your parents or grandparents were dressed up. Was it traditional? 

MY: Yes. My grandparents I do not remember them, but I know my Dad, yes, for the holiday, he used to have a suit. And had a special...hide....a different dress, yes.

SV: If we talk generally about the community life. Something...like a memory or an occasion that is well related to community life in Iraq.

MY: Well in the community, everything was limited. I remember where my Dad his business, I used to go there, actually the time that my brother was involved with him or the business that my brother was involved(?) in was garment. I used to go and visit, see other people and the time that I mingled with them, during after hours after school, but during evening, no, never was involved at all. 

[00:33:09] MY: And maybe my brother was going with other, but I did not. 

SV: Can you describe shabbat at your home? Preparation? How involved you were? 

MY: Shabbat, we were going to synagogue and we came back home. The brothers, my brother and my father, came home, and the food was ready. Already my Mom did everything possible to put on the table. Sometimes we did not go to synagogue, me and my brother Isaac. Maybe we did not feel well, because for us, you must go to synagogue. Today I'm thinking what was the reason we did not go, not that often, maybe once, we did not go. 

[00:34:17] MY: And then as a kid when you see all the food waiting at shabbat. Waiting till my father would come home and we did not know that you may not eat at all, hungry or not hungry, before the father shows up from synagogue. This I know very well! Sometimes I have a good memory, sometimes a bad memory of that. And when you are 7, 8, 9, you don't pay attention if you'Re hungry, you want to pick yp something from the table. You see the food there! I learned that hard way that you don't touch till the father shows up. So life you cannot say, the glass half empty, you always say half full. And I like to say, not the best memory at the time! Whatever, I would like to say it was part of the discipline. Would I do it again today? No.

SV: It was always the same synagogue? What was the name?

MY: Yes. The synagogue was (name?).

[00:35:33] SV: So, in comparison to other Jewish families in Iraq, you can say that your family was pretty observant. You were more religious so to speak than the other families?

MY: Yes, yes. We were more religious than any other families, I know that. Very. Extremely religious. As a matter of fact, it was rules like you may not eat before father shows up. If the rules were, you cannot turn the lights on before shabbat. If the rules were, Yom Kippur and you're hungry and you want to come home and eat, and the rules were only, only -- we were in a neighbourhood where everyone was Jewish -- and you can tell at Yom Kippur everyone came from the synagogue and they turn the lights on. So you know Yom Kippur is over, and people can start to eat. The rules in our house was only when my father shows up. And when he shows up, when the people finished praying -- he prayed more than anybody else, yes -- he's still longer than anybody else, yes, and then our light -- it was only when my father showed up and it was dark -- 

[00:37:01] MY: And my mother used to wait at the door of the house, and see from far somebody coming, and we used to call his name: Are you there? No it's not him. Then he showed up, and if everybody was home at 7:30, then my father show up at 8:30, 9 o'clock. And we had to wait till then. Only then we could turn the lights on, then you could eat. To mention how fanatic he was, how were more religious than anybody else: when father asked my brother when he went to synagogue to watch that my sister should not go and do her exam, because of shabbat, so he kept her home to show how it is. And he did not let her and she did everything possible to persuade him, he said no. The rules are rules. Obviously she did not go and she suffered quite a bit because she failed in class. 

[00:38:11] MY: She failed and she badly did not want to go to school anymore. And to tell you how (much) harm he, my father for forgiveness, 20 years later, in Israel. I'll never forget it. And then she realized what harm he did to her. All because of the name of religion. And he said -- I was there -- and he said to her, I ask you for forgiveness after 30 years, 35 years. You should not give it to him! That's life...

SV: Any memory from the synagogue? Shabbat service? 

MY: Yes, obviously everyday we pray the same thing, every morning. It was every morning that we used to go. And Yom Kippur was very, very nice. We liked to go there, it was nice. The people dressed different, they looked different, the (word?) was different. We liked very much. What we liked, the kids at that age, the chandelier from crystal was so nice! And my brother and I, if we saw a piece from the chandelier, we used to take it, and at holidays you always used to find some crystal on the floor, my brother looked at me, and we used to take it outside and used it (hold it up) against the sun. 

[00:40:04] MY: There were beautiful colours from that crystal. This memory, I remember it very well, it's a good memory we had from the synagogue. 

SV: Bar mitzvah ceremonies were done in the synagogue? And thereafter at home?

MY: Yes, synagogue and thereafter at home. 

SV: Let's talk about your Zionist experience. To what extend you can tell us that you were exposed while in Iraq to Zionist activities that you heard about, took part in? Any membership in groups that was related to Zionist in Iraq?

MY: We heard about them, but not involved directly. We were listening to the radio at the time, from Israel. At the time, we were so afraid to listen to the radio. We knew some activity going on; we were extremely scared. To learn Hebrew, the rabbi used to come home and teach us Hebrew. But we were scared. We listened to the news at the time. We were very afraid. Because at the time, also it was my time, the Arabs decided to hang a very well-known Jewish figure in Israel. And when you hang someone, I believe his name was (name?), this was dramatic. We were very afraid. 

[00:42:03] MY: So basically we heard some (word?) coming to Iraq and try to get us into Israel, told us some story. We liked the idea, but were extremely afraid. We were afraid to deal with any issue. We heard from others, but everything was hush-hush. 

SV: So you would say that the family's view about Zionism was very ambivalent. You didn't take in that whatsoever? But you were very excited to hear about that. 

MY: Yes, we were very excited. No, we did not take part because to take part of that...I like to say that you were gutsy, to take part in it. And when you have a father so religious and so afraid. I remember a story at the time of how you can go differently, when my father was in the business of the cowhide, getting skins brought to him, he used to also get goatskins as well. I remember I was 8, a gentleman came to my father with silver hair and hearing aid, and talked to my Dad. After, my Dad told us was that person. That person, I remember his name till today: he was a Prime Minister if Iraq, for 3-4 months I believe. I believe his name was (name?). He came to my father and said, I want you to make a coat for my wife. 

[00:44:00] MY: But my father was not in the fur business. Whatever he had a the time, it was whole skin. But when that gentleman ask you to do something, you do it. It took a few months, they send the skin, had people clean it, I don't know how he got the measurement of his wife, but somehow my father did it, because he wanted to do it, naturally. To tell you the character of my father. And then when the coast was ready, he had a box and he put it in the box. There was a bridge, I think the Jewish were living in this area, I don't remember what area, and there was a bridge behind that side of the beach. I think the government buildings were there and they were living there. And my father came to the bridge, and there were policemen, and ask him, what are you doing here? Because Jewish don't go in there. He said, I have this box to give -- Mr. (name?) became Prime Minister again after 5 months -- I have this for him. They did not understand my father: What do you mean? You can tell you're Jewish, you behave like a Jew, look Jewish, you're afraid like a Jew, everything. You smell Jewish! So what are you doing here? 

[00:45:19] MY: So then, they said, Stop here and they called the office of the PM. They said, There is a gentleman by the name of Abdallah (Thayer?), there's something here for you. I guess, maybe he did not want anyone to know that he's getting a present from my Dad. So the order was from there, Get whatever he has and arrest him. For no reason whatsoever. And they took what he had and arrested him. 

SV: Which year was that?

MY: 1946-47.

SV: And what was the view about Israel, before '48 and after '48?

MY: We heard about Israel already in '47. We heard. Then '48 for sure. But that incident happened during that time. So my father was in jail, for no reason. It was a terrible time. The father was the only provider of the girls, my sisters and brothers were going at the time to school. He's the only provider. And then, my Mom was involved obviously and then, How do you get my father out of jail? 

[00:46:49] MY: And then it was a money issue because was him. and he was not there. Everything is gone. I remember she sold her jewelry, gold, to someone that she knew, Arabs. A kind of big name he had, whatever influence he had, I don't know. And he was the only one who could take him out of jail, by bribing them. He came back home and we realized at the time that if not today, then tomorrow. The (word?) have to get money. So the decision was made that the one work from my father, the guy in charge of the warehouse, my father came to him, and he was like a part of our family. So he gave him power of attorney, he said, Look, I need your help and other people helped to leave the place here. You take it and you provide money and food to the rest of the family, cause I have to leave. 

[00:47:52] MY: He knew that my father had to leave Israel, sorry Iraq. Because the only choice, tomorrow again they're going to arrest him for no reason. And that Arab who helped, to take the rent, brought (bought?) across the river and go through Iran. Then it turned against him. Sad, it was so bad against him, my father had nothing on him. And he said, I like to search you at the other side of the river.   He thought maybe he had gold or diamond, but my father had nothing. Had only with him a watch, the one you put in your pocket inside the vest. When he came back he took everything away. We didn't get much of the whole thing, and my father now went to Iran, and after to Israel. So obviously we had fear in what to do. 

SV: You did experience persecution against Jews?

MY: Yes 

SV: Is there any personal memory or something you personally experienced in that regard?

[00:49:19] MY: The story of my father was very dramatic. Good or bad, doesn't matter, he's the father of the family. But he was the one in charge. When he's gone, there was a big gap in the family. And the guy who worked for him, who did everything for us, he turned against us; he took everything away. This was a big scar. You remember that. It wasn't a pretty time. I remember everything, but certain things you think about, you don't want to talk about it, not because it is (word?). I'd love to talk, I have a book; I didn't publish it yet but it was a terrible time. You now have 10 kids going to school and suddenly no provider. 

SV: When did emigration was first talked (about) by the family, that was raised. The idea of getting out of Iraq?

MY: The synagogue at the time told us that now there's a way to go to Israel. If you want to go, this is what you have to do: nobody knew about it, the British made a deal with Israel, I don't know exactly. And you were able to leave everything behind and go to Israel and have a new life. And we didn't know good and the bad. Some Jews went to Israel and the news came back that it was bad. I'm talking work. 

[00:51:20] MY: Obviously it was '48 at the time. There was nothing in Israel. '48-'49. It was nothing. And then the news in Iraq, we had everything, kind of, and ...food, no food, work, no work then people changed their minds. There was an incident, when the Jews in Iraq made a decision, maybe we should go. 

SV: Any specific trigger?

MY: The Arabs were more hostile toward us. To the best of my knowledge, if I was the Prime Minister of Israel, we would do the same thing. Ben Gurion at the time he made a decision to rush...to make it not so easy for you (Arabs?) to stick around there. Then we came to Israel, and I remember very well how we flew from Iraq. We didn't have much, except some suitcases, some stuff, clothing....and when security in Iraq when we left they checked us, if we have anything on us -- gold, diamond, we didn't have any of those things obviously. I remember that very, very well. We flew from Iraq to Cyprus and from there, we came to (name?). I remember extremely well. First thing I said, Whatever I could not do in Iraq, I was afraid what I could do in my country, I took a bicycle and said this is mine, I'm in Israel! I'm Jewish, so a good feeling we had. We stayed for some time in (name?), and because of my youth, I was young, then the decision was from there, we go do (name?) for Sabbath.

SV: It was in '51...?

MY: Yes. 

[00:53:14] SV: What did you leave behind in Iraq?

MY: We left the house. We left whatever we had that we could not sell. Mind you, when we came to Israel it was a big family. We were 3 sisters and 2 brothers; me and my brother. And the rest were behind. To see what's going. We could not go all of us in one shot. Cause my mother wanted to organize, and my father was already in Israel. So we looked for him at the time in (name?) and we found that he was in (name?) because he came before us. 

SV: So the first experience in Israel was (name?)

MY: Yes.

SV: Could you provide a description of how was life in (name?)

MY: It was extremely difficult. We were in a tent in (name), and then they put the tent in (name) on the sand, and they gave us those beds from (name). The mattress was made of hay, I don't know, it was hard like a stone. There were a few people in the tent and I guess in the tent, they put a screen so that the rain would not go in, and I don't have to tell anyone how it smelled when in 40 degrees, the sun...it was extremely difficult. And the floor was sand. The toilet you have to walk there, and the water you have to walk to the other side to bring a bucket of water to the tent. And it was very difficult. 

[00:55:20] SV: Did you feel that you were moving to a certain world to another world? Any assistance that was given or did you have to...

MY: Yes, obviously I felt it was difficult in Israel. But at that age, I felt freedom; I was not afraid to go into (name). I was not afraid to go at night to the toilet. Nobody will throw stones at me. Nobody will tear my shirt. So I felt freedom, it's my place, it's my place here. 

SV: So how did you continue your education while in Israel?

MY: I went to (name) and from there was in (name), then I went to kibbutz and then (name) but they came to interview people ...

SV: Can you talk about your education while in Israel?

MY: There came people from the kibbutz from all different kibbutz in Israel and they came to interview us in order to know what kibbutz they would send you. And when they came to us and interview me and my brother, they said, Your family is religious. I said, Yes. My father was extremely religious. They said, Ok. Then they made a decision to take us to kibbutz (name of kibbutz) in Jerusalem. But I guess at that time already, we were separated from my father, I would like to say 2-3 years, because he left Iraq to Israel and we were still in Iraq. Then we came to Israel without my father. 

[00:57:32] MY: but we were rebellious against being religious again, and we came to (name of kibbutz) and they gave up kippah and go to pray, and we said, This is not for us. We were kids, we didn't know. We start running back to (name) in Jerusalem, and you cannot do that. We didn't want to eat, we didn't to do anything, we didn't want to go and pray, then they said, You know what, maybe go back to (name) and we give you another kibbutz. That's what happened. 

SV: And your education actually ran in tandem with any professional development?

MY: No, then I went to another kibbutz (name). It didn't work out for me also because the food wasn't for me. I came from Iraq, and the food they give us to eat was (name - laughter). I didn't understand, instead of telling me (name) it's a meat, and I did not know where the one who was in charge...Miriam, I still remember her...I'm a kid...In the morning, we have egg and cheese, I like it, noontime, this (meat name). I was scared and I didn't eat it, so they send (name) in the evening, I did not eat evenings. So I came to see (meat name) waiting for me, everybody gets something else. I didn't eat, so my friends used to bring me food from the inside to outside. The day after everybody having eggs, I'm the only one having (meat name). Then after a while I guess the manager told them, Enough of this (meat)!

[00:59:11] MY: From that also, you learn. Everything in life, you learn. I wish I could tell her in the same way I talked to my father, You Miriam, you know we are kids, we come from different generation, different places in the world, different directions, different cultures, different places. We are not bad people; we are kids. Tell us, explain to us and listen (meat name), it's a meat and look, I eat it, try a small piece. See if you like it, if not, take it out.  That did not happen. This way or the highway. You learn from that. You become stronger, I guess. After that, I left the kibbutz and I went to school in (name), not a religious one, and I did not finish my full education. Because at the time it was difficult, there was no money available and everybody was working. The work was not easy. So I made a decision to leave school and go and work, I was 14, 15, 16, I started to work all kinds of work, till 17. I worked all kinds of work. Then I became a cadet in the Navy, pre-Navy, 6 months before that, then I went to the Navy for 3 years. 

[01:00:58] SV: I guess you mixed with immigrants from other countries, Jews. You didn't stick to your Iraqi Jewish fellows. You just mixed with Jews coming in from (everywhere)?

MY: Yes. I was not anymore. In the (Mossad?), there were not too many Iraqis. In the kibbutz, I'm the only one who was Iraqi. The only one. Then (words unclear) because they thought maybe (words unclear) a troublemaker. They put one in one place and one here. I was in (name) alone, and there was no Iraqi. And then I went to work in the bank, discount bank, I met someone from the security, Defence Ministry. We became friends. I was 15, 16. He likes me. 

[01:02:00] MY: And he arranged for me to work as a clerk. Again, I not involved with Iraq, and not because I was avoiding them, I was not kind of involved. And then at the age of 17, 17 and a half, I was in the (name) and then at the time, I was (names here) you go dancing, in Tel Aviv. And I was dancing at the age of 17! And then I met a girl, 15, 16, she was not Iraqi. She was Polish. So I was involved more in that direction, not because I choose it; it happened that way. 

SV: To what extent did you feel as Sephardi vs. Ashkenazi. Or?

MY: Yes, I did not feel it because I was young. But I would like to say that I did not feel it 100%. Some effect was there. When I learned about it first-hand, in the army I was a cadet and like anybody else. At the bank, I was like anybody else. I would like to say I was likeable; people liked me. I think other should say that, not myself! So I did not feel it. The first time, I wrote it in the book, I was in love with this girl, and she was from Ashkenazi family, and they the (word?) from her father was extreme, and I didn't know. But I asked her and she would never tell me. It was extreme. 

[01:03:57] MY: But then it was kind of crazy that we went together, although he was against me. And she was for me. And I could not believe at the time, I learned that if women want to do something, they will do it. She was 15, 16. And she did everything possible to be with me. We had been 4 years together and the father outright declared war against us. It didn't help. Until... funny, one day, he saw me and said, I have to talk to you. I said, No problem. When we made a decision to meet, to have coffee together, him and me. His name is (name), I still remember. They are well-to-do. He had a business, they have a condominium apartment in (name), and I'm coming from (Malbara?). Somehow it didn't work, but I was a different person, actually, and she wanted me and I wanted her. 

[01:05:05] MY: So we had a meeting, him and me, and (her) father talked to me. He said, Look, you're a very nice person, you're going to be a very successful man. I need one thing from you to do: don't go out with my daughter.  And I remember very well at the time, I told him, Look, Sir, you cannot...At the same time, he said, She's not educated. She's stupid. And you're a smart guy.  I remember very well what I told him, I said, Look. no. 1 rules, don't put down your daughter. She's not stupid. No. 2, you want me to leave her. I'm the wrong person. You go and tell her that she should not see me. She'll have to tell me: I don't want to see you.  And it's all over. It's all over. I'm not going to force her. So you ask me to do something against what I want to do. Why don't you speak to her? He was extremely upset. Extremely upset at my answer. I felt reality. And poor her, she was waiting on the other side of the corner with (word?), and waiting to see what happened. 

[01:06:18] MY: And I told her clearly, Your Dad does not want us to go together. She said, What do you think? I said, I'm not going to let you go. I'll stay with you. What do you think? (Her): I do the same thing. And so we stayed together. It's funny, I don't know...she was in the army, and she left the house. She came to my place; I had a terrible place. And I felt embarrassed; my mind was always. I heard a long time ago, and I knew, that if the poverty comes from the small window of the house, the love is going away from the big door. And I was worried. Cause I told her a few times, I said, Look you came with a silver spoon in your mouth, I'm afraid I cannot do that. I cannot provide what you need. And she said to me, You're wrong. We will do it together. But I was really afraid. I was concerned that she has everything and I have nothing. I said maybe I'm able to do it on my own, because I wanted to do it. At the time, I made a decision, God will tell me if it's right or wrong, I don't know, and it was a very, very hard decision to make. The hardest...after the army, when her Dad was (word?) day and night and I choose to send people to get (her?) from the house -- a friend, a girl at the time that I knew, not me, although I'm sure the father he knew that she was coming to meet me -- it was not easy. This chapter I can talk about for some time, because it was a very touching chapter. 

[01:07:57] MY: And I learned from this chapter, a lot. And then I said, Look, it looks to me that I have to leave. My brother went to Germany. He said, If you come, I'm able to arrange for you a visa and work, etc. I was looking up to him. I said, Maybe now is the time, I will do my own future. And I leave her. Because it's not fair for her. She asked me to go and work. I had no profession. I was in the army as a signalman. What can you do with that? At the time, to work in a diamond bourse, I know nothing about it. She said, You work, you do this, I do that. Let's work together.  And I felt still, I was worried that whatever I will do, it was not sufficient. 

[01:08:49] MY: And one day, this came as a boomerang at time. I was worried although she did not give me any indication. I was more concerned, maybe I should let her go. And I left her. And she married. For years, I was single. I eventually married. I knew the person (she married), but then I said to myself, Now you are alone, do what you have to do.  And that's what happened. At the time, in Germany for one year. Then I went to Copenhagen for 5, 6 years. And you know all the blonde girls are there and you have the black hair and everybody looks at you. That age, that's what happens to all of us. But then I realized maybe now is the time to do something with my life. I met my wife on the beach, in Italy. We talked and we said, We shall be together.  Copenhagen, she said never. She knew why and I know. Germany, I said never....At the time, it was not easy to go to the States. My dream was to go to the States. Easy for her, difficult for me. 

[01:10:04] MY: But it was easy to come to Canada. We came here to Canada. And then, when I came, I had no profession. I knew a little bit when I was in Copenhagen. I learned to work for the airlines; I worked here for the airline as well. For 4,5 years, I worked shifts, from 7 in the morning to 1pm, 3pm, from 4 in the afternoon to midnight. Midnight to the morning. So this gave me time when I work from midnight to the morning, I didn't go to sleep. I had another job: go out and sell carpets and wallpaper. So I was working everyday, 18 hours a day, seven days a week. I did not raise my kids! I didn't raise them, because I was never home. I was working 7 days and I've raised a baby. And I remember very well when my daughter (name) married, in Tel Aviv, at the Hilton. And I was on the stage, and I was talking and I said, Look, when you were young, I did not play with you, I did not raise you, but I promise I will give time and raise your kids. And that's really what I'm doing today. I'm getting them here. It's a very moving situation, you know, very moving. 

SV: How about your parents and siblings at that time in Israel. How did they manage to adjust to different financial environments, procedures...?

MY: Financially, it was not good. My father elected to be in Jerusalem, because he was religious. And my Mom stayed in (word?). We had some small, primitive house...Financially it was difficult, my mother was...the kids ...give a little bit here and there, but everybody was at the age where they wanted to get married and think about their own lives. It was difficult. Father was not home. I helped whatever I could. Mind you, I left Israel when I was 20, 21. Then my mother was in very...not the best condition. 

[01:12:46] MY: I know when I left and came here, I remember very well, she told me, Son, don't forget me.  Not only that I came here to Canada I had $60 in my pocket. I had a wish...My mother said, Don't forget me.  And I knew I have to do something for her. So it was not the best. When I married here, clearly I told my wife the story; she knew it. I worked for the airline, she worked also a similar work. And we worked one year, and she brought a piece of carpet home. And we had two mattresses on the floor, and two chairs -- bamboo -- from Pascal Hardware, $4.50. And we said, No more. We spent a little bit and said, My money, your money, we put together, my wife told me at the time, We can wait. Your mother cannot wait. And I bought her a condominium apartment in Tel Aviv, in Ramat Gan. So it wasn't so easy. 

SV: Sephardi heritage...to what extent do you carry elements with you or has it impacted your future career or your daily life? Food, prayers. What does Sephardi heritage mean to you?

[01:14:12] MY: Look, it has impacted yes. To what level, my wife. She's not from that environment, so obviously my life is different. Obviously. But in life, whatever your childhood was, as long as it was a good childhood...I had a good education...although my father was religious, he was a good man. He was a decent man, a very honest man. I knew from that things...I told him back in Iraq -- I just want you to know what happened for me in Iraq -- every morning after the synagogue, we used to go to big place where they served vegetables and food and fruit and bread. And at the time, when they sold bread, they were a basket of bread. And my father used to come with me and my brother. And he used to say, Today we are taking 6 loaves of bread. So we take 6 and put them together. So he goes to the guy, the owner, and tells him, We took 6 loaves of bread. Say each one was a dollar, so 6 dollars. So we were kids, so one day -- nobody counted how many we took -- so instead of taking 6, we took 8. And my father, he paid for 6. But we came home, my mother knew that we had 2 too many. She went to tell my father and this is the only time -- he used to beat us; he beat us often, you do something wrong, he beat you -- my father at the time, he did something...you learn from that. 

[01:16:04] MY: The day after he didn't say anything. We came to the same place, he bought bread and he said, Yesterday, I think you made a mistake. I took you to get 6 and you took 8. I paid for 6. Today, you take 6, I will tell you took 8. I'm going to pay for the 2.  This I learned, honesty. 

SV: Would you say that this is the big thing to be gleaned from your Sephardi heritage?

MY: Honesty. That's right. In my mind, yes. Today, you can ask about me in the community, I'm extremely honest. You see what you get! I don't have any other way. You learn, you see, the community, the education, the environment, everything, they bring you...Although I am not involved directly with Iraq, my childhood was in Iraq. Obviously now whatever they do, I'm from there. 

SV: Can I ask you how you would identify yourself nowadays, if you have been asked who you are...in terms of identity?

MY: ....Israeli. Immediately. Israeli, yes. Immediately, everywhere, Israeli. Because you see, I (was) raised in Israel. Even I don't know how to read and write in Arabic, let's say, I understand...Israeli. But naturally people ask me where are you from? I'm Israeli, but I was born in Iraq. 

[01:17:49] SV: Would you consider yourself, in retrospect, when you have to migrate from Iraq to Israel, were you a refugee or an immigrant?

MY: I don't know what you called them at the time...I guess more...refugee because we didn't have any papers. They give kind of paper, laissez-passer, at the time and they dump us and go! That's all. We came with nothing. 

SV: Can I ask you do you consider home? Where is home for you?

MY: Home? Israel. 

SV: Would you say that you would pass this identity to your children?

MY: Yes, today when people ask me for example, where are you going tomorrow, I'm going to Florida. When I go to Israel, I'm going home. I was raised there, I went to school there, I went to the army there, so...it's different 

[01:19:01] SV: Which language do you speak to your children?

MY: Today? English and Hebrew. One of them, she's very good in Hebrew. The other one, less. And funny, sometimes German.

SV: What was the impact of this immigration experience when it comes to your whole life? This whole experience of moving from Iraq to Israel left a real stamp on your whole life. To what extent would you agree to that and, if yes, what would be the main lesson that you took there in order to build up, to shape your (future)?

MY: Look, no doubt I agree fully with that. I'm talking a Jewish. To move people from place to place because you are persecuted in that country it is wrong, naturally. Because look at it now, I'm Iraqi anyway you look at it. I was born in Iraq. And if people were behaving nicely to all the Iraqi I do not know if many Iraqis would have left Israel for example. But in hindsight today, because they were not nice to us, and we came to Israel. I really believe, myself, that it was the best thing that every happened to me, or to my family. Coming to Israel. Because, you see, were are Jewish. And somehow we all going to go, who is going to build the country? We need that place to rely on. We are in Canada and other people are in the States, and other people are now in France, and the proof now, whatever difficulty is going in that area, everybody thinks about Israel, immediately. 

[01:21:05] MY: Israel is home. There are many people going to France, Belgium, Germany, England. And I think almost everyone coming to Israel is buying a condominium. It's all empty, but they have it. It's home. So I'm proud naturally because it's a big impact, that age, when you're 17 till the age of 20, you're in the army. This is a big impact on your. You're proud to be Israeli, you're proud what Israel is doing. Although it's not so easy, it's very difficult. But it is what it is. It's very good what happened. Till today, Iraq, they were nice people we would have stayed there? No, as Jewish, you have to have identity. And I'm very happy, very, very happy that I have Israel as my identity. I'm Israeli. 

SV: Any thoughts what would have happened otherwise, in an alternative history? After all, not all Jews left Iraq in '50-51. Some of them actually remained in Iraq. (Does) it occur to you that from time to time you think of what would have happened if we hadn't left Iraq in '50 or '51?

MY: This nightmare I even don't want to think about it. Because this is terrible really what happened. Some of the people, I would like to say stubborn, did not want to go to Israel, because in Israel it wasn't so easy, and they stayed. Till they 60 or 70. They had an extremely hard time. My friends, I know them here, it was bad, really bad for them. So I'm happy that I left early enough to get the flavour. Because if you came to Israel the age...it happened to my brother. He was no longer age of army; he was older and it was not easy for him. Imagine when you're 22, 23, 24, you have to be with kids 18 and the (word?) are not easy people. They're teasing you, you're older than them. All those things happened. 

[01:23:27] MY: So imagine when you're 30, 35 to Israel, they know how to tease you. So for me it was wonderful to leave early enough to be one of them. So it works for me very well. 

SV: Did you have the opportunity to get back to Iraq, or in recent years, to the north of Iraq, what they call Kurdistan? Did you ever thought of getting back there to see what was left? Any thoughts?

MY: Categorical answer: NO. Never! I don't want to see it. First of all, I don't know if I remember anything about it, the whole environment there, who would want to be there? Mind you, then all...Egypt...and I...there was the peace between them...I didn't like it so much 

SV: Mike, if somebody is, something happens to see this interview...What message would you like him to have from all this?

[01:24:52] MY: Be strong. Be positive. Do everything yourself. Believe in yourself whatever you do. The main message really that we all have to be positive. Sometimes in life, it's not so easy but keep smiling. Try to help other people, if you can. Try to share your strength if you're able to give to others. And the message is very, very simple: keep working, keep being positive, keep thinking in your head. Always say: glass of water always half, not half empty, half full. That's what it's about. Don't complain. Take it as it is. Complain, we all complain! Don't blame others. Anything blame yourself; correct it yourself. Try to be mother? for other. Try to get people to look up to you and try to tell, Listen, see what I did? Don't copy me. Try to be better than me. That's what I tell my family. I'm for them, I said, Guys learn from me whatever you can, try to do better than me. That's what the message is for everybody. 

SV: I can tell you that it was an immense pleasure to interview you, to be the interviewer, and fascinating. Thank you, thank you so much.

MY: It's my pleasure and my honour to be here and tell hopefully some of the story that could help other people, if they listen. Anything I can do, I'm there for you guys.