Marcelle Abitbol
Cleaned by: Julia Pappo
Transcribed by: Rev
Interview date: February 21st, 2012
Interviewer: Henry Green
Location: Miami Beach
Total time: 49:18
Marcelle Abitbol: Born on October 11th, 1931 in Casablanca, Morocco. Arrived in Algeria in 1948. Arrived in Marseille in 1948. Arrived in Israel in 1948. Arrived in the United States in 1968.
Henry Green (00:00):
Can you please tell me your, your full name?
Marcelle Abitbol (00:03):
Marcelle Abitbol.
Henry Green (00:05):
'Kay. When were you born?
Marcelle Abitbol (00:09):
I was born on October 11, 1931.
Henry Green (00:13):
And where were you born?
Marcelle Abitbol (00:15):
In Casablanca.
Henry Green (00:17):
In which country?
Marcelle Abitbol (00:18):
In Morocco.
Henry Green (00:20):
So let's begin with, with can you tell me something about your family's background?
Marcelle Abitbol (00:25):
O- okay. My parents, both of them, they were from, uh, Fez. A city, you know, the City of Fez, then it used to be one time, used to be the capital of Morocco. And when Casablanca, they start to be a city built by the French when they come, my parents moved from Fez to Casablanca, where I was born. And, uh, uh, since then we lived there until, uh, we moved from Morocco.
Henry Green (00:58):
Can you tell me something about the history of l-... What it was like in Casa when you were a child.
Marcelle Abitbol (01:04):
Uh-
Henry Green (01:05):
Your family, your, your, your activity.
Marcelle Abitbol (01:07):
Ah, it, uh, is usual [inaudible 00:01:13]. We were, uh, in my area, it was a street. It wasn't... We didn't live in the mellah. Mellah is the ghetto in Morocco. We lived out of the Mell-... Uh, out of the Mellah. But that street, they were full of Jews. Uh, then we were always having friends play in the dirt on the street, you know, w- w- we fought on the street, you, uh, you know, kind of stuff like that.
Marcelle Abitbol (01:39):
And, uh, I, I used to go to a school, uh, next to our school... Our school where I was was mostly Jewish school. Uh, the next school, it was Arab school. Then we were always all kind of fighting between Jews and the Arabs. Even before Israel exist already, there were all kind of, uh... Ah, that what I remember, uh, uh, I remember once then, uh, uh, my older brother, there, the one passed away, he, he was a tough one. And the... He would get in fights with those Arabs.
Marcelle Abitbol (02:19):
On the one time we, we g-... We form a group. (laughs) We are... We pick up the, uh, rocks and we fill up our, uh, school bags with the rocks. That was when we leave the school we are ready already. Because Arabs, they were, they left the school one half an hour before us, but we were ready to fight with them.
Marcelle Abitbol (02:43):
Then we used to fight on the, uh... Oh, the Arabs, they have also one (laughing) of the, the, you know, kids. Only kids. The Arabs, they have like one of the... A [inaudible 00:02:55], like a chief? And the one time the chief, uh, with all his group come running after us. We went home and, uh, we run upstairs and they wanted to come after us. Uh, then my father is, uh, you know, found out and, uh, he comes, he run after them, start to beat them (laughs)... Yeah, that, those kind of stories. So, you know, kid's stories. Uh-
Henry Green (03:21):
Did, did your grandparents live with you? Or did-
Marcelle Abitbol (03:23):
Uh... Well, uh, yeah. One grandma. But she, you know, didn't live with us. They, they used to come but they have their own, um, s-... One, my grandma, she used to live with her daughter. That, uh, my father, from my father's side. She used to live with her daughter. But they were close, they used to come to see us all the time, things like that. And, uh, my, my side grandma from my mother's side, she used to live to another city. And also she used to come to visit us once in a while. And it was, uh, a nice life.
Marcelle Abitbol (04:00):
My father used... Although he worked on Shabbat, but he used to go to the temple, like in the morning in the temple, the afternoon he would go to work or something. And he used to have, uh, a café, my father.
Marcelle Abitbol (04:13):
Uh, I don't know if you know the café in, uh, in Morocco was different from here. It was like in France. The people, they go only to have drinks, things like that. Not food. You know, is not a restaurant. It's, uh... Here you don't have something like that. But in, uh, the French, it was, uh, you know. People, they would come before dinner or before a lunch to have an aperitif, they call it. All they will get all kind of drinks and they had some kind of small hors d'oeuvres. And, uh, then my father used to have that kind of café. But he will not go Shabbat morning to work, but y- because he have to go to the temple and then after that you will go to work.
Marcelle Abitbol (04:58):
Uh, I remember, uh, many times then when my father, like in the holy days he did work, then after the temple, he will invite all the people from the temple to come home to have, uh, s- aperitif, they call it. Then many times they ate their things and then they go home to have, uh, lunch. Their [inaudible 00:05:21] lunch. Uh, those things I remember. Uh, what else I can say?
Henry Green (05:26):
Did your... When would your mother start cooking for Shabbat?
Marcelle Abitbol (05:30):
Oh, Friday night. Friday, I mean, not Friday night. Friday she would cook. On that, uh, we have a special, uh, a special, uh, food, I think, then for Friday or it's one of the ones for Shabbat. For, you know, Shabbat afternoon.
Henry Green (05:46):
What we- what were they?
Marcelle Abitbol (05:47):
Huh?
Henry Green (05:47):
What kind of food?
Marcelle Abitbol (05:49):
Well, uh, like Friday night it was a fish, Moroccan fish with, uh, chickpeas, you know, that kind of, uh, food. Uh, with soup. But that was usual one for Friday night, that kind of food, you know. Every Friday it the same thing. You know, and, uh, and then you have soup or you have something, uh, you know.
Marcelle Abitbol (06:15):
And on Shabbat you have, uh, what you call here, uh, [inaudible 00:06:22]...
Henry Green (06:22):
Challah.
Marcelle Abitbol (06:23):
Challah, yeah. You have that in the afternoon. Shabbat afternoon. That what you want.
Henry Green (06:28):
And would your... Who would come, would anyone come Friday night for dinner? Uh, your [crosstalk 00:06:34]-
Marcelle Abitbol (06:34):
Ah-
Henry Green (06:34):
... and friends? Or...
Marcelle Abitbol (06:34):
Well, uh, once in a while they will come. But mostly what, uh, family f-, you know, only f- family. Uh, like I said, Shabbat, sometimes we have people when my father didn't go to work. Then we have people come in home having lunch or they drink aperitif or something like that, yeah. And, uh, my father used to have a lot of f- uh, French people like, uh, from the Army or, oh, from the government. They will come eat dinner with us or lunch, many times. Things like that.
Marcelle Abitbol (07:14):
And with Arabs, my father used to have, uh, some friends, Arabs. But, uh, he didn't like to have them because once you get they're not up front, they will come knock on your y- door any time she want, w- w-, you know, without being invited. Uh, uh, my father, he didn't like that. Then, uh, although he was friendly with them, he will not take them home because he don't want that kind of friendship then, you know.
Marcelle Abitbol (07:44):
Y- when you go to those Arab's homes, uh, they will do everything for you. They are very hospitable. Then they will do anything for you. But, uh, and they expect you to do the same thing for them, but even without an invitation. You know, and they will come, they knock on the door on the, on the seat like, uh, they are in their own home. That was the impression I got from the Arabs in... From my father friend that I know. I don't know if all of them there the same thing or not, but that the impression I got. Uh-
Henry Green (08:19):
Did you have help in the house?
Marcelle Abitbol (08:23):
Yeah. We have, uh, we have a maid. Uh, ah, not a maid. Yeah. She was a pretty girl and, uh, but she loved to dance. And then oh, she quit and she went dancing in one of, one of the restaurant, you know, and her family then used to live in the mountains, they found out and her brother comes home to kill her. They call it honor... Honor, uh, crime, whatever. And, uh, they went to jail for one month and then let him go.
Henry Green (08:58):
Did you have another, some more help, someone else [crosstalk 00:09:01]-
Marcelle Abitbol (09:00):
Y- yeah. We had from the... My father used to have a lot of people working in the restaurant. Beside, the maid used to come if they have, uh, extra need of help, they will send us people from the café to work.
Henry Green (09:15):
And did, did they live in your house?
Marcelle Abitbol (09:16):
No, only the maid lived in the house.
Henry Green (09:18):
The maid lived in your house.
Marcelle Abitbol (09:18):
Maid, yeah. The maid, yeah, lived in the house.
Henry Green (09:21):
She was Arab?
Marcelle Abitbol (09:22):
Yeah, she was Arab. I remember there was a young girl, maybe seven or eight. No, younger than that, because she used to put me in her bag and take me... Medina. Medina is when the Arabs live there. Only Arabs. And you don't see many Jews or, or often go there. Even the American when they come to Morocco it was, uh, [inaudible 00:09:49]... I mean, it was... I call that, uh, [inaudible 00:09:51], you know, for, uh, the Americans to go to the Medina. She used to take me there, then, you know, I remember that. But, uh, to her family or friends, something like that, that, I remember those things.
Henry Green (10:07):
Did, did, uh... What language did you speak in the house?
Marcelle Abitbol (10:09):
Well, we speak more Arab and French. Arabic and French.
Henry Green (10:13):
And what was the more c-... With your parents you would speak French or Arabic?
Marcelle Abitbol (10:17):
Uh, uh, French mostly, French.
Henry Green (10:19):
And with the, uh, your, your maid you would speak Arabic?
Marcelle Abitbol (10:22):
Arabic, yeah.
Henry Green (10:23):
And what language at school?
Marcelle Abitbol (10:26):
French.
Henry Green (10:26):
And in the streets?
Marcelle Abitbol (10:28):
Uh, mix. Is all depends with whom you meet, which one you meet. You know. In Casablanca there were, like, uh, is, eh, it was a city... In my time it was a city of 700,000 people. Uh, 300 of them, 300,000 of them, they were French. They were like, uh, like 50,000 Italians, there were like 100,000 from Spain, there [inaudible 00:10:54] from Spain, they were Franco. They, they were mostly European, Casablanca. And Jews, there were, like, 80,000 Jews in Casablanca. And Arabs, they had, there were, there were also a lot of them. But, uh, you know. We, I don't know how many there were, Arabs in Casablanca.
Henry Green (11:12):
Your grandparents, your, your father's father's name.
Marcelle Abitbol (11:15):
Uh, that, yeah. I cannot remember his name. Yeah.
Henry Green (11:18):
You can't remember. Your, and your father's, uh, um, mother's?
Marcelle Abitbol (11:22):
Uh, huh?
Henry Green (11:23):
Your father's mother's name? Do you remember that?
Marcelle Abitbol (11:25):
No, that... I remember only my mother's, you know, from, uh... And I have a nice story-
Henry Green (11:32):
[crosstalk 00:11:32]-
Marcelle Abitbol (11:31):
... from my mother. Uh, my grandmother from my mother, uh, my father's side. From my father's side. Uh, when she was young, that before the French come to Morocco, they marry her, she was, like, uh, 12, 13 years old and she was still playing, uh, with the kids, things like that. And they want... They marry her with an old guy that... But he got a lot of money, and, uh, but she wasn't happy. You know, she was young, she wanted to... She wasn't happy. And then she ran away in that time, before the French come.
Marcelle Abitbol (12:09):
You know, she used to live in Fez, she ran from Fez to Spain. In that time it wasn't easy, you know, was very, very hard. There were, uh, the highways, there were all kind of gangsters, you know, highway murderer and she ran away from him, she went to Spain. Uh, my father was, uh, my father got another brother and, and sister. Three of them. She took the l-, the little girl with her and the two boys, she leave them with the father. Yeah.
Marcelle Abitbol (12:41):
And she stay in Spain until she found out that he pass away. Then she come back. Uh, that the story. I mean, it's a beautiful story. She was like, for me, uh, she was like, uh, the w- li-... The woman liberation, the first one, yeah. Uh, that the impression I got from her. She was so tough. And she knows what she want and she did what she want. And she took the little girl because she was the little one and she want to liberate... My father was already 12 years old or something like that, and you know.
Henry Green (13:19):
What was her name? Do you remember her name?
Marcelle Abitbol (13:22):
Yeah. Miriam.
Henry Green (13:23):
Her name, last name?
Marcelle Abitbol (13:25):
Miriam. Uh, uh, [inaudible 00:13:28] well, last name from her, uh, husband. But from her fa-, her own family I don't know. But, uh, like my f- grandfather, he was [inaudible 00:13:38] that one. Yeah.
Henry Green (13:39):
What was your father's name?
Marcelle Abitbol (13:42):
Uh, Prosper. My father names-
Henry Green (13:44):
Yeah.
Marcelle Abitbol (13:44):
... Prosper, [Arabic 00:13:46]-
Henry Green (13:48):
[crosstalk 00:13:48]-
Marcelle Abitbol (13:48):
Yeah.
Henry Green (13:48):
Do you know when he was born?
Marcelle Abitbol (13:50):
Yeah, in 1906.
Henry Green (13:52):
And in what city?
Marcelle Abitbol (13:53):
Uh, Fez.
Henry Green (13:55):
And your mother?
Marcelle Abitbol (13:56):
'12. 1912. 1912.
Henry Green (13:58):
1912? And what city also?
Marcelle Abitbol (14:01):
Also Fez.
Henry Green (14:02):
And what was her name?
Marcelle Abitbol (14:04):
My mother Luna Abitbol. Abitbol. Ah, uh, before was, sh- she was [Shelbiet 00:14:09].
Henry Green (14:10):
Shelbiet. And you have brothers and sisters?
Marcelle Abitbol (14:13):
Yeah.
Henry Green (14:14):
Can you tell me their names and the year they were born? If you remember?
Marcelle Abitbol (14:20):
(laughs) Don't give me that. Uh, well, I had a brother, one year and half older than me. He was born probably on '29, 1929. And I have, my next-
Henry Green (14:35):
And his name?
Marcelle Abitbol (14:37):
[Sarumon 00:14:37]. His name's Sarumon. My, the next one, I mean, I was the next. My... The next one after me was Esther. Uh, probably she was born on, uh, 19, uh, '35, '36? Around, yeah? And then it was [Ramont 00:15:00]. And she was born probably '37. Yeah, 1937. And then it was, uh, Mimi, that, she pass away. She was born on, uh, '38, yeah, it would be. Or '40. Um, uh, and, uh, then Vivian, then she live here. She live in, uh, in Williams Island. Uh, she was born on, uh, 19, uh, if I'm not mistaken, maybe '41. Um, and my young brother, then also was born around '40-something.
Henry Green (15:48):
Does, does, uh, what did your father do for a living?
Marcelle Abitbol (15:50):
He used to own a, uh, a café.
Henry Green (15:55):
Did, did it have a name, the café?
Marcelle Abitbol (15:58):
Yeah. Uh, let me remem-... I can't remember now, it... I know when I left he, uh, the [inaudible 00:16:08], I think they call it Commercial? Commercial Café, something like that. That my fath-... And then when I was in Israel he open another one, uh, I think the other one it was called Liberty, Liberty or something like that, if I remember.
Marcelle Abitbol (16:26):
And this café was in front of, I don't know if you know about the Marcel Cerdan, Marcel Cerdan used to be one of the champion box, you know, in the world. And he open a restaurant, uh, next to my father. And my father knew that guy a long time ago. He knew Cerdan. And, uh, and, uh, when I was young, I went to his, uh, s- gym. And he teach me how to box. Uh, my... Not him, I mean, he... The people who work there, Yallah. Uh, those things I remember, yeah.
Henry Green (17:09):
The, the, um, go back to your home and can you describe what your bedroom was like?
Marcelle Abitbol (17:19):
Well, uh, is an apartment. Uh, the building, they have three apartments o- o- one in each floor. My apartment, our apartment was, uh, four bedrooms and, uh, two bathrooms. One bathroom, it was close to the, to the bedrooms and the other bathrooms you have to go through, uh, uh, we used to live back in the third floor and we have, like, a hallway then it was open from one side to go to that, uh, bathroom.
Marcelle Abitbol (17:58):
Then, uh, I used to live with my brother in one bedroom. We used... And the sister lived in the other bedroom, you know, and w- and we had, like, uh, two... Two dining. One for every day and one for the Shabbat, holy days. Uh, that what I remember.
Marcelle Abitbol (18:19):
Now my sisters went to Morocco lately and they wanted to see the home where we lived. Now, now the Arabs took over and they make a garage out of it. I mean, they make [inaudible 00:18:32] garage out of it. I mean, she is so disgusting, she said. She, she don't... She don't want to go back to see what's going on.
Marcelle Abitbol (18:39):
I never went back to Morocco, but my sister wanted to go. And when you go to see Ramont, she was also there. Uh, one time she was not with the other, she said she was herself with... And, uh, one, uh, they have, like, the guide, a guide in the bus, you know a tourist guide. And, uh, and they were on a trip in Morocco visiting and the cops come and the people, they were afraid. You know, they, because they were some Israelis there with them on the...
Marcelle Abitbol (19:19):
And, uh, when she told them, y- was, asking them their name, and she told them the name, and she said, "Oh, my God, your father is Abitbol? That is your father?" [inaudible 00:19:30] she said yes. And then he, he was so nice to them and all come. It was... Probably she will tell you about that story and, you know, that what I hear from her (laughs).
Henry Green (19:40):
What school did you go to? Your primary school [crosstalk 00:19:43]-
Marcelle Abitbol (19:43):
Yeah, yeah. Albert Sonsol.
Henry Green (19:45):
What language did you speak?
Marcelle Abitbol (19:47):
French. It only French, you know, in the...
Henry Green (19:49):
[crosstalk 00:19:49] and then after that?
Marcelle Abitbol (19:51):
Uh, I went to [inaudible 00:19:52].
Henry Green (19:52):
And what language there?
Marcelle Abitbol (19:54):
Also French.
Henry Green (19:55):
Did you learn Hebrew there?
Marcelle Abitbol (19:57):
No. Well, Hebrew i- if you got to Cheder, uh, not really Hebrew. It was, uh, you know, prayer, things like that. Uh, we used to go, like, in Sundays when you don't have school you, we go there to learn, uh, you know, Hebrew. But, uh, you know, the Hebrew, Arabic, we learn only how to read. In Hebrew, only how to read. Not even how to speak. How to write. And Arabic, I learn it only how to speak. Not how to write it or, or read it even, you know (laughing). We, we learn only the French, really. Then we knew how to write, to read, uh, to speak, all that stuff. Yeah.
Henry Green (20:37):
Then, uh, the war came. Did the war... World War II.
Marcelle Abitbol (20:42):
Yeah.
Henry Green (20:42):
Did it affect you at all? You or your parents?
Marcelle Abitbol (20:44):
Uh, yeah. We were lucky. we were really lucky as far as... I was kid then, but I knew the story then. We were like, few days... You know, the Arab, they wanted the German, they wanted to ready to start with the Jews. Uh, the King of Morocco, they would not let them. They say, that's my Jewish. You don't touch them.
Marcelle Abitbol (21:10):
Uh, I think that time, the German, they were, uh, they were, they were [inaudible 00:21:13] didn't have enough, uh, army there, uh. But they were [inaudible 00:21:19] they they were cooperating with the German. And then, uh, they, they wanted to do something to get the Jews and the king, he would not let them.
Marcelle Abitbol (21:28):
But, uh, the Germans start to come to Morocco because they getting stronger and they were, uh, they make already a list of all the Jews they have to take, all the Jews that have to, um, drive them out of school time, you know.
Marcelle Abitbol (21:42):
All the Americans comes couple of days before that, American, uh, [inaudible 00:21:50] Morocco and, uh, and we were lucky. You know, the, uh, Jews from Tunis, they were not that lucky. But in Morocco, the Jews, they were, you know, you know-
Henry Green (22:00):
[crosstalk 00:22:00]-
Marcelle Abitbol (22:00):
... uh, na-
Henry Green (22:01):
... daily life?
Marcelle Abitbol (22:01):
Well, in school it, a little bit, affect us. First they want us to sing about [foreign language 00:22:09], I don't know if you, you heard about [foreign language 00:22:11]. They have like a special song for, uh, for him. Uh, I remember every times we would go out, outside all the kids, and we have to sing about [foreign language 00:22:23] you know, kid. Things like that I remember, Yallah.
Henry Green (22:31):
Did, did you have a bar mitzvah?
Marcelle Abitbol (22:32):
Yeah. Yes.
Henry Green (22:34):
And, and, uh, can you tell me about your bar mitzvah a bit? What [crosstalk 00:22:40]-
Marcelle Abitbol (22:42):
Well, uh, my bar mitzvah, it was mostly the temple. And, uh, people they come home to have... It's not like, uh, what it is today. You know, bar mitzvah is a big, big, big deal. Then it was a big deal, but no- not that much. I mean, uh, we didn't go to a special hall to have, uh, to celebrate, uh, you know. It was at home. It was in temple from the temple you come home. There were all kind of food, people they come, uh, my, my father already called orchestra and, uh, you know. Uh, one orchestra, a big other, uh, other European orchestra. You know.
Marcelle Abitbol (23:27):
Uh, but it was at home. And we have a big home, and these people, these who come on the... And they used to give you cash. You know, we have the, the bar mitzvah, you get like, uh, where to carry the books, uh, but it was done, uh, beautifully, you know. Uh, and people, they will bring money and put it in that (laughs)... That, that way was that, you know.
Henry Green (23:55):
What about Zionism? Were you involved in any [crosstalk 00:23:58]-
Marcelle Abitbol (23:57):
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Uh, then, uh, around, uh, I think the year or so after the war, '46? I remember I was kids. Uh, I think I was the only one in the family. I mean, my parents, they were, uh, very strongly Jewish, but they w-... They were not as Zionist as I was. I was born that way, I think.
Marcelle Abitbol (24:25):
And when I read in the newspaper then, they killed 6 million Jews, that they then, people, they were doing... You know, they were happy then the end of the war and the German, they were... I, I would say, "Then, what? For us it was nothing. We lost. We lost 6 million Jews." What, uh, what we gain from it? We didn't gain anything. Everybody's happy here but for us, I mean, nothing. We didn't do, I mean, we didn't get anything.
Marcelle Abitbol (24:52):
Uh, then there were some, oh, ji-, uh, Zionist, uh, organization, uh, they were in some kind of school. We used to go there and we used to learn Hebrew, the real Hebrew. I mean, the, uh, Hebrew that you can read, write and not, uh, to pray [inaudible 00:25:09]. And, and, uh, we learn how to sing in Hebrew, all that kind of stuff.
Marcelle Abitbol (25:17):
Uh, and then when the war start, I wanted to go to Israel. My family they would not let me. I ran away from home. And then I have to go through borders without no papers. And I was lucky because, uh, the French gendarmes, they were there. They know the troops are running, that they were stopping. And the gendarmes come, come to the bus I was. I think I was the only Jewish that bus. Mostly were Arab and they were sitting next to an Arab woman. And, uh, they would think probably I'm an Arab also, didn't arrest me. They let me go.
Marcelle Abitbol (25:56):
Uh, then from... Once in Algeria, I meet some Jewish organization and I went to the City of Oran, they had some kind of place there where the, all the Jews get together. And from there I went to France, [inaudible 00:26:15], I don't know if you heard about it, it was a big, uh, you know. And, uh, and [inaudible 00:26:20] already we start to learn military s- things, you know, to be ready.
Marcelle Abitbol (26:25):
And then I was in Israel, we went to Israel in, uh, in a small boat. We were like 400 people, that boat. That boat, it tooks like over two weeks to get to Israel, it was so... We were so packed and the boat couldn't... It was going, you know, slowly, slowly till we took forever to get to Israel from Marseilles.
Marcelle Abitbol (26:49):
And then, y-... When I went to Israel I went to the army. That, I was, like, 16 but I was tall. Like now, I used to look older, much older. And also, I told them then, "I am 18 years old." You know, they took me to the army. I was in the army, you know.
Henry Green (27:09):
You, you, you left, um, uh, Casa and went to Algeria and then Marseilles.
Marcelle Abitbol (27:14):
Yeah.
Henry Green (27:14):
What year was this? '47 or-
Marcelle Abitbol (27:14):
'48. '48.
Henry Green (27:16):
'48.
Marcelle Abitbol (27:18):
Yeah.
Henry Green (27:18):
After the State of Israel was-
Marcelle Abitbol (27:20):
Yeah. But still it was war. Uh, I was in, uh, I left probably, uh, like two or three months after the creation of the state, uh, and I still one month in [inaudible 00:27:37], then by the time I was in Israel it was October already. Uh, and I was in, uh, they took me to, uh, I, I had to go to the [Galil 00:27:51] you know, to fight in the Galil, you know, [foreign language 00:27:54], I don't know if you, you know all that stuff yet. Yeah, uh, that was, uh, you know.
Henry Green (27:58):
I wanted to ask a few more questions about this period. Um, did you have any military training when you were in Morocco? Did they teach you-
Marcelle Abitbol (28:06):
No. No, no, nothing. Nothing. Yeah.
Henry Green (28:06):
Did you... Did they give you forged passports and stuff?
Marcelle Abitbol (28:14):
Uh, when? From Morocco... No. I didn't have no papers.
Henry Green (28:17):
Okay. [crosstalk 00:28:18]-
Marcelle Abitbol (28:17):
They were, they were not orga-... [inaudible 00:28:19]... wasn't that good in Morocco. In Algeria they were already, were organized. But in Morocco they were not organized at that time. My time, you know. And that was the beginning. They were not. I mean, they have some Zionist movement, but since I didn't go with my parents and I was underage, I couldn't do anything. I mean, even if I went to [inaudible 00:28:41] Jewish organization, they will not help me without my parent's consent.
Marcelle Abitbol (28:46):
Then I had to f-... To run away. That what happened, a- and I didn't have no papers with me. That, it was hard, yeah.
Henry Green (28:54):
The people who were on the boat with you, were they mostly Moroccan? Or were they-
Marcelle Abitbol (29:00):
No, no, no. They were mostly from Europe. Uh, we were-
Henry Green (29:03):
Survivors? Or...
Marcelle Abitbol (29:03):
Huh?
Henry Green (29:04):
Survivors?
Marcelle Abitbol (29:05):
Survivors, yeah. Mostly from the camps, you know. Uh, we were like, uh, maybe the boat, we were, like, over 400 people in that boat. Maybe 20, 25, they were Moroccan origins.
Henry Green (29:17):
Do you remember the name of the boat?
Marcelle Abitbol (29:22):
Uh...
Henry Green (29:25):
So you come to Israel-
Marcelle Abitbol (29:26):
Yeah.
Henry Green (29:27):
... and you immediately go to the Galil or, what, what happened?
Marcelle Abitbol (29:31):
No, where-
Henry Green (29:33):
[crosstalk 00:29:33]-
Marcelle Abitbol (29:32):
... I w-... The training, they give us the training, 10 days training. From, uh, after you train, they send us to, you know, to the Galil. I was in, uh, [Carmen 00:29:43], [Carmelite 00:29:45], uh, the regiment, you know. Uh, [Carmel 00:29:51], [Carmelli 00:29:51] they call it. Today it doesn't exist anymore, I think. It's not, doesn't exist.
Henry Green (29:57):
And how long did you stay in the, uh-
Marcelle Abitbol (29:59):
The army?
Henry Green (30:00):
... in the army?
Marcelle Abitbol (30:01):
I had over two years. I was, uh, wounded, then I was in the hospital. And then I was in, uh, uh, I go [foreign language 00:30:14] is a place when after the hospital, you go to rest there. You know. I was th-
Henry Green (30:18):
Rehab, rehabilitation.
Marcelle Abitbol (30:19):
Yeah. Uh, a few months that you was in [inaudible 00:30:23] in a nicer area than we took from the Arabs. They would only feed us there, I don't know... I don't know, you know it? Yeah. A German colony, they call it. German colony. There, there they have that, uh, rehabilitation program. It was very nice there. We had the good life there, we all enjoy it, it was good. And, uh, that's it.
Marcelle Abitbol (30:44):
After the army I, uh, you know, I want... I didn't have nothing. Well, I used to get some kind of help from the government. Uh, then I decide, then, you know, to find some kind of work. The army help us to get some kind of job, then I didn't like it. My father sent me a car and then, uh, I, I had to ask for a license, special license. In Israel it was very hard to get license, taxi license.
Marcelle Abitbol (31:15):
And, uh, but since I was, uh, a invalid I got that license. License alone in Israel in that time, it was costing, like, $10,000. Yeah, very expensive. I got that and, uh, and to be the only taxi in Israel that time, we're talking, it was a big deal. You are already some kind of (laughing)...
Henry Green (31:41):
What city was this in?
Marcelle Abitbol (31:43):
Uh, I used live in [inaudible 00:31:47] close to Tel Aviv. You know, then, uh, you know, uh, it was like Tel Aviv. Then, after a few years I got tired of the taxi, I couldn't take it any more. And I meet some people then, they were hair dressers and they open a beauty salon in, uh, Tel Aviv. They [foreign language 00:32:06], they call it. Nes- next to it they used to do, they used to do the big building facing with... There I used to own my, uh, my beauty salon there.
Henry Green (32:16):
You were telling me about, um, uh, your beauty salon-
Marcelle Abitbol (32:23):
Yeah.
Henry Green (32:23):
... and you got married?
Marcelle Abitbol (32:24):
Yeah, I got married. I m-... I met a girl from Argentina, uh, and we get married. My first son was born in Israel, in the suburb. I knew... When he was 10 months old, we moved to United States.
Henry Green (32:42):
You, your wife's name was?
Marcelle Abitbol (32:45):
Uh, [Pearla 00:32:46]. Pearla, yeah.
Henry Green (32:45):
And her maiden name? Her [crosstalk 00:32:49]-
Marcelle Abitbol (32:49):
Uh... Oh, my God. Now when you getting old, you forget things, you know?
Henry Green (32:58):
And, what, your son's name was, is?
Marcelle Abitbol (33:00):
My son is Dan. Dan, yeah. Daniel.
Henry Green (33:04):
[crosstalk 00:33:04]... What year was he born, then?
Marcelle Abitbol (33:05):
My son, he was born on '47. 19, uh... August, 1947. Warm out.
Henry Green (33:15):
'47?
Marcelle Abitbol (33:16):
I mean, I'm sorry, '47... Uh, '67,
Henry Green (33:21):
1967.
Marcelle Abitbol (33:22):
... seven. Yeah, yeah, oh, my God. I f-
Henry Green (33:24):
[crosstalk 00:33:24]-
Marcelle Abitbol (33:23):
... yeah. He's right! [inaudible 00:33:26]-
Henry Green (33:25):
What year did you marry?
Marcelle Abitbol (33:27):
Uh, like three years before that. Yeah.
Henry Green (33:31):
So, so, so-
Marcelle Abitbol (33:33):
Yeah, y-
Henry Green (33:34):
... you had at least that long until 1967.
Marcelle Abitbol (33:37):
No, much before that.
Henry Green (33:39):
Until, I mean, the-
Marcelle Abitbol (33:40):
Uh, yeah, yeah.
Henry Green (33:42):
And when did you leave, you s-... Israel, did you say? When you were [crosstalk 00:33:45]-
Marcelle Abitbol (33:44):
In '68.
Henry Green (33:46):
'68. And why did you leave Israel?
Marcelle Abitbol (33:48):
Well, uh, her family, she got, uh, her brother, her sister, she was married with a doctor also from Argentina. And they went back to Argentina. My own family comes here to United State. Part of them come here to United State, they were... Then, uh, and it was the war, the '67 war in Israel. The '67? Yeah. Uh, and my wife, she was pregnant and they took me to mobilize me in the army. And she was left alone with no family and she was pregnant. Most of the hospitals were taken by the, uh, by the army, things like that. Then, uh, she got scared, uh, then she wanted to move the family, she said, to move to Argentina and I said, "Oh, no, no. If you have to move, to United State." That, uh, because of that we come here.
Henry Green (34:49):
And what y- year your second boy is-
Marcelle Abitbol (34:53):
He was born here, my, uh... The second one is my daughter.
Henry Green (34:56):
Your daughter.
Marcelle Abitbol (34:56):
Yeah, she-
Henry Green (34:57):
And her name is?
Marcelle Abitbol (34:59):
[Gabrielle 00:34:59].
Henry Green (34:59):
And what year was she born?
Marcelle Abitbol (35:01):
Uh, she was born, uh, she's, like, 41. It should be... You know, my wife, she could remember everybody, dead, everybody. I, I can't-
Henry Green (35:12):
She's 41. So it'd be maybe 1971 or something.
Marcelle Abitbol (35:15):
Yeah, around. Yeah. She w-... You know, she was born in Long Island. Uh, yeah.
Henry Green (35:21):
Let me go back to Israel. You lived in Israel, you came in '40-uh... '48.
Marcelle Abitbol (35:27):
In Israel, yeah, '48.
Henry Green (35:28):
And you stayed till '68 when your-
Marcelle Abitbol (35:29):
See... 20 years in Israel, yeah.
Henry Green (35:31):
And can you tell me what life was like for you in Israel? As a, as a Sephardi living in Israel?
Marcelle Abitbol (35:39):
Yeah, well, uh, there was some discrimination in Israel. There, there were discrimination. I didn't feel it much because I was with all my friend from the army. Most of them, they were [foreign language 00:35:53], all my friend. Then, uh, I... The beginning when, uh, when I left the army I was put in the, one of the hotels to live in a hotel with all my, those friend. And, uh, I didn't feel that bad, and then I think I used to go to school, finish my, uh, my schooling there.
Marcelle Abitbol (36:16):
Uh, but you fell it. I remember once I went to, to a kio- kiosk, kiosk, they call them, kiosk. And, uh, and I wanted to buy [foreign language 00:36:33] they called it, lemonade, something like that. And there were two girls there and they make fun of me because I was Sephardi. Uh, you know, things like that I remember, stupid things like that. And, uh, what else?
Marcelle Abitbol (36:50):
Well, there was some discrimination in Israel. I think the discrimination still today. They are still, yeah.
Henry Green (36:58):
Did your parents leave Morocco or did they stay in Morocco?
Marcelle Abitbol (37:02):
They lived Morocco. My father lost everything there. My father lost his, uh, restaurant, he lost the house, everything. It comes with nothing. I was working for the whole family. I got a taxi and I took care of all the family. I worked for them until my father open another restaurant in Israel. [crosstalk 00:37:21]-
Henry Green (37:21):
When did he come, he and your mother come to Israel? What year was that? Do you remember?
Marcelle Abitbol (37:31):
Ach. Uh, four... Maybe '54, '55, something like that.
Henry Green (37:35):
Before the war in, the Suez War?
Marcelle Abitbol (37:38):
Yeah, I think before the Suez War. Yeah.
Henry Green (37:41):
And do you know how they came? By boat? Did he, did he, uh [crosstalk 00:37:45]-
Marcelle Abitbol (37:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they come by boat, yeah.
Henry Green (37:46):
And did... And who helped them come? The, uh, the-
Marcelle Abitbol (37:51):
[inaudible 00:37:51] yeah. Well, uh-
Henry Green (37:53):
[crosstalk 00:37:53]-
Marcelle Abitbol (37:52):
... didn't come, uh, all together. My fath-... My mother come with, um, my son... I mean, with, uh, the, my little brother, youngest brother. She comes with him. My father come later on. He wanted to try to get some money from, uh, you know, from whatever, uh, business he got, things like that. But he didn't have, he didn't get.
Marcelle Abitbol (38:14):
But I, I had already my own home. I... From the army. They give me, you know, they give me the house. I mean, the small, uh, [Hebrew 00:38:24] they call it. Then I took them to my house. They didn't go to a camp for the migrant, immigrant camp, things like that.
Henry Green (38:32):
they didn't go to Ma'abarot?
Marcelle Abitbol (38:32):
Huh?
Henry Green (38:32):
Not Ma'abarot-
Marcelle Abitbol (38:35):
Not Ma'abarot, no. Didn't go through it. They come straight to my house. And they... And I worked for them for many years, I was really the breadwinner of the family. I was working for all of the family, yeah.
Henry Green (38:47):
Did your s-... Your, your brothers and sisters, where did they go? Did they go to Israel?
Marcelle Abitbol (38:51):
Yeah. Yeah. Uh, my sisters, they come before my mother, even. Three sisters come. They went also to France and from France to, they come to Israel. Uh, one, uh, two of my sisters, they were in the Kibbutz. And one, they send her to, to a nice school, uh, [Hebrew 00:39:18]. Uh, what did they call that school? Uh, what they call that school?
Marcelle Abitbol (39:22):
And I had to fight to bring other girls from the, the Kibbutz to that school. Because the Kibbutz, I know they will not get any education. When you go to Raimont, you going to find out. Uh, they didn't get any education. Raimont, I couldn't because she was already older and I couldn't move her. But V-... But Mimi, I moved her to that, uh, school. [Barilan 00:39:49], the school is Barilan they call it. Uh, it was a nice school and nice... A small village. Uh, like a village? It was really nice.
Marcelle Abitbol (39:58):
And it, it was very hard. I think if I wasn't, uh, if I was Ashkenazi, it would be much easier (laughing) for me to move it than as a Sephardi. Yeah.
Henry Green (40:07):
And you came to The States in '68? And where did you come? New York? Is that where you lived?
Marcelle Abitbol (40:13):
Y- yeah. I went first because one of my sister was living in, uh, Washington. Uh, that, the one person, Mimi. She was married with a lawyer in Washington and they were doing very well. And they wanted me to stay in Washington. And they tried to find me some kind of job there to do. But I didn't like Washington (laughs).
Marcelle Abitbol (40:38):
In Tel Aviv, you know, when I got married, I used to live in Tel Aviv, you know, back in Tel Aviv where there lot of friends, Tel Aviv. We have a social life, very busy. I mean, we used... After work we close the business, we used to go to [Roval 00:40:58] a c- a restaurant, a café in Israel. And we used to meet all the friend. We used to, to go out or the movies or the one of the homes, dancing, do something like that. And Washington was a dead city for me. My sister, she live a beautiful home in Washington, the suburb. And, uh, then have come to think, I want to do something.
Marcelle Abitbol (41:24):
I used to open the door, dark. Nothing. I said, "Well, I'm not going to live here. It's ver-..." I mean, what kind of life? I didn't get used to the American way of life. And I said, "Maybe New York is better." Then, when I come to New York (laughing) I had, uh, Esther, that is the mother, you know? I went to her house. I said, "Where I can go? I mean, uh, the evening, we like to go out, things like that." She said, "Yeah, go to 42nd Street in New York."
Marcelle Abitbol (41:52):
I went to 42nd Street. We went sitting in one of those café, sidewalk café and see, I mean, uh, you know, to enjoy the view, the, the people, things like that. Then it was disgusting. We see all kind of people, you know, you... She said, "That's the wrong place to go (laughing)." Then, uh, but we were in New York already, then I opened my business there and we start to-
Henry Green (42:18):
Beauty, uh, beauty salon, yeah?
Marcelle Abitbol (42:20):
A beauty salon, yeah.
Henry Green (42:20):
What area of New York did you live in?
Marcelle Abitbol (42:20):
Uh, Forest Hills.
Henry Green (42:25):
... [crosstalk 00:42:25] come to Miami?
Marcelle Abitbol (42:26):
Uh, Miami? I op-... Uh, I used to own a home in Long Island. And I bought a condo on the beach on, uh, 60... I have, I marked the date because I couldn't, I can't remember. I have it in one of those books, when I write.
Marcelle Abitbol (42:44):
Uh, we used to come the summer here, in that condo in the summer because the kids were in school all the, they come... They were off the summer, then we used to come the summer. In the winter I used to rent it. By renting that apartment, the, uh, the apartment pay all the expenses for the whole year, then it was good for, you know. It was a good deal. Uh, then we decide to come and live here. Then, that apartment was only two bedroom and I had three kids, it wasn't...
Henry Green (43:19):
You had three children?
Marcelle Abitbol (43:20):
Yeah, three children.
Henry Green (43:21):
Who was your [crosstalk 00:43:22]-
Crew (43:21):
Try-
Marcelle Abitbol (43:21):
Yeah, oh.
Crew (43:21):
Try not to touch the mic.
Marcelle Abitbol (43:21):
Oh, I'm sorry, yeah.
Henry Green (43:27):
When was your third child, when was your third child born [crosstalk 00:43:29]-
Marcelle Abitbol (43:28):
Uh, also in, uh, New York.
Henry Green (43:31):
And what was your child's name? [inaudible 00:43:35]-
Marcelle Abitbol (43:35):
Michael.
Henry Green (43:36):
Michael.
Marcelle Abitbol (43:37):
The youngest one, that... Michael. Yeah.
Henry Green (43:38):
Michael, what year was he born?
Marcelle Abitbol (43:40):
He was born, he's, uh, 41 now. 42 now. What? Oh-
Henry Green (43:48):
He's in his 30s?
Marcelle Abitbol (43:50):
No, n-... Michael? Uh, yeah. You're right. Oh, my God! I'm so screw (laughs). My, uh, my oldest son is, uh, 40-something (laughing), the youngest one is 33, I think. 33.
Henry Green (44:05):
So you came down here with your children.
Marcelle Abitbol (44:07):
With my children, yeah.
Henry Green (44:08):
And they were in school here? Or were they-
Marcelle Abitbol (44:10):
Yeah. They, they went to school here. Yeah.
Henry Green (44:14):
We, we have to end in a few minutes. So I, I was going to ask you, um, how do you define yourself? How do you see your identity? Do you see yourself, uh, how do you see yourself? How would you define yourself?
Marcelle Abitbol (44:28):
Well, uh, I see my... [inaudible 00:44:32] myself more Israeli than American. Although, I am American citizen. And I love this country. Love it. Because, uh, since I come here the, the first day I come here, the way people greeted me here, even when I go to the immigration office or, y-... When I went to, to the police station, I mean, to get some kind of papers. I, uh, the way they greet me, it was so wonderful. I feel like at home right away. I feel like at home. But although those things, I was thinking then, you come one day and then have to move back to Israel.
Henry Green (45:12):
Do you see yourself as Moroccan at all?
Marcelle Abitbol (45:17):
Yeah. I'm always to everybody then. I'm Moroccan, I was born in Morocco. But, uh, I don't have nothing associate with Morocco now beside, uh, meeting the family, things like that. Uh, I feel myself more Israel and American than Moroccan.
Henry Green (45:35):
What about Jewish or Sephardic?
Marcelle Abitbol (45:38):
Oh, yeah. Alway, that. Yeah. I feel that very strongly. [crosstalk 00:45:44]-
Henry Green (45:43):
And how, how is that? How do y- how does that show? Your Sephardic [inaudible 00:45:48]?
Marcelle Abitbol (45:48):
How it show? I don't know, are you... I like to go to Sephardic temples. I used to be a member in the one in Hollywood, uh, [inaudible 00:46:00] you know what the name of that?
Henry Green (46:02):
[crosstalk 00:46:02]-
Marcelle Abitbol (46:02):
[inaudible 00:46:02] Sephardim, I used to be member there for, uh, many years. Before they moved there, even. Before they moved there. My s-, my, uh, son got his bar mitzvah by [inaudible 00:46:13]. Uh, then I have the food, Moroccan food. I like to meet Moroccan friends. That, uh, yeah.
Henry Green (46:24):
Um, the last question is what message would you like to give to anyone that would listen to this, this, uh, oral history? What message would you like to give to them?
Marcelle Abitbol (46:41):
Well, the message that I would like to give to Sephardi Jews is to fight for their right. To fight, even in Israel. I think Israel is losing a lot by not helping the Sephardi they way they should be. When I see here, when I come to this country over 40 years, I see the change, the change [inaudible 00:47:06] of thi- this country between all kind of minorities. How the Black people get in, uh, in few years, you see them today all over, uh, with the great, uh, opportunities. They're given all kind of good opportunities.
Marcelle Abitbol (47:30):
When they start with that, uh, affirm, uh, no. Affirm... Allow everybody, every university have to have some kind of, uh, percentage of Black kids in the school. That help a lot of Black people to get admit. That I would like to see that in Israel. To put people more, to give them the best education. I know now when you go to those small cities in, uh, in Israel, they have the worst school, the worst teacher, and those kids they don't have any futures. I mean, good futures. I would like that to be changed, then those... Half of the pop- population of Israel, they don't have the right education, and that Israeli is losing because you can never know from those people what kind of people could come. That what I would like to give, uh, you know. Mostly education. Give the best education you can give to those kids. That is their future.
Henry Green (48:36):
Thank you, Marcelle-
Marcelle Abitbol (48:36):
Your welcome.
Henry Green (48:37):
... for taking the time.
Marcelle Abitbol (48:38):
Thank you.