Transcribed by: Rev

Interview Date: 4/12/2013

Interviewer: Henry Green/ John Bellgrad

Location: Miami, FL

Total time: 1:15:59

John Bellgrad (00:00:48):

My name is John Bellgrad and I'm here along with Henry Green on behalf of Sephardi Voices. Thank you for participating in the Sephardi Voices project. This interview is part two. Can you tell me something about your grandparents?

Lisette Shashoua (00:01:02):

Um, I remember, I heard stories about my maternal grandparents, uh, in Baghdad at the time. It was very important to have a white complexion. And, uh, my grandmother really, uh, liked my grandfather. Well, the way they like somebody just seeing them and thinking they're good looking. And so, uh, when she was walked, when, when, he came over to their house one day. She washed her face, and did not wipe it. So that it shows that she didn't put any powder, that she's white complexion.

Lisette Shashoua (00:01:50):

Um, my grandfather was self made. Um, he was got into properties, he lost his mother early in life. I have pictures actually of him when he was four years old. And, uh, my grandmother came from a wealthy family. Uh, their last name was [Gabai 00:02:13]. And when one of them got sick, they kind of vowed that they would change the name to [Shamash 00:02:23], if he gets well. And he got well. And so, uh, they change the name to Shamash. That's my maternal grandparents. And I have a lot of pictures of my grandfather, with his friend as Rebecca. Who, um, at the end is Rebecca's son, and my grandfather's daughter got married. And it's, uh, aunty [Beta 00:02:49] and uncle [Morris 00:02:49], who are the parents of [Lin Julius 00:02:52]. So I have pictures of all of that.

Lisette Shashoua (00:02:56):

My grandfather on my dad's side, um, is [Shaoul 00:03:02] Shashoua. And he was also self made. He also became extremely well off. And, uh, did I tell you the story of the palace? Did I say the story of the palace before in part one, do you know?

John Bellgrad (00:03:20):

Not much. Can you please tell us more about that?

Lisette Shashoua (00:03:22):

Okay. Well, uh, in 1926 or '27, when, uh, when Iraq became, uh, under the occupation of England, of Britain, Great Britain. They needed a place. They, they assigned a king, who was part of the Emirate, um, of the Emirate, of the Emirates. And they assigned two kings. One for Iraq, and one for Jordan, two brothers. Uh, I think they were the Hashamite family. And the one that was assigned in Iraq was called King Faisal the first. Since Iraq was part of the Ottoman Empire for over 400 years or Bag-Baghdad that didn't have a house that was a palace or anything to, to accommodate, uh, a cul-sultan or a king or anything. So they were looking for a house that was big enough for the, for the king, yeah, the apo-, the new appointed King to live in till they build the palace for him.

Lisette Shashoua (00:04:38):

And Mrs. Bell who was in England, she was the adviser to the king to be. Um, went on a boat apparently on the Tigris River and to choose one of the homes that looked suitable for the king. And she chose my grandfather's house. Shaoul Shashoua's house. And the king lived in it till they built a palace. And, um, f-from what I hear, my grandfather didn't charge them rent or charge them one dinar a year or something just nominally. And, uh, my grandfather and the king were friends. Because they, my, my grandfather moved to another house that he rented nearby. And, uh, the king used to come to my dad, my grandfather on horseback and visit. That's how close they were then. The, the, the Jews formed at least 1/3 of the Baghdad community.

Lisette Shashoua (00:05:45):

And, uh, and so my grandfather was really, uh, you know, my parents remember the king coming to visit on horseback to the house. And, uh, um, afterwards, uh, they moved from the house and they cho, went to another house. And of course, the king got a palace after two, three years or more, I don't know. And, um, my father was educated in England. Uh, he had the British accent that was much better than mine. And, um, uh, my grandmother on my dad's side, uh, I really, she, I know she's from the [Gorgi 00:06:35] family. And I remember her well. And I don't know what else you'd like to know.

John Bellgrad (00:06:43):

Do you know how your grandfather came to live in his house?

Lisette Shashoua (00:06:48):

I really don't know. I think they asked him if he would rent it to the king, or if he would give it, you know, to let the king live there that I don't know. But I know, uh, my grandfather was very accommodating. Because it's an honor after all. And, uh, and they were friends. They became friends after. I, the Faisal the first was very good to the Jews. And then his son came, uh, I think he died or he was killed or something, Faisal. I'm not sure how he died. But King Faisal, his son King Ghazi was pro the Germans. He was, uh, he was with the Germans, when the, uh, German movement started. So he too, got killed. And then his son, who was four years old, became the king. But since he's only four years old, it was his uncle, the brother of his mother that became the, um, the governor for them, you know, till the king became of age.

John Bellgrad (00:07:56):

Do you know where the house was located?

Lisette Shashoua (00:08:00):

I forget now. Uh, it was far. It was on the water. I know that. And it was far. I remember seeing it once when I was a child because by then it had been sold. Um, it's on the water, I know that. There is a, uh, in Israel there is, uh, a book about, uh, Jewish homes in Iraq. And there is one sketch of the Shashoua house. Um, I have an aunt, I have a cousin who lives here, actually. I just remembered. She was born in it. She was my oldest cousin. She is, she was born in that house and she remembers it. The house eventually was so big and so close to the water, eventually. Like maybe 20 or 30, 40 years after the king left part of the, of the house fell in the water. But was still big enough to be sold. And was sold that very cheap. And now it's being taken care of by a Muslim family who is living there. And they're very proud of the fact that the king lived in it. Uh, but I don't know how that was asked. (laughs)

John Bellgrad (00:09:16):

What else do you remember from that house? Any other property what the land was like?

Lisette Shashoua (00:09:20):

I remember going from far with my grandmother, which is the wife of my grandpa. I, my grandfather died before I was born. Uh, and they pointed to the house and said this used to be our house. And it has been in many I-Iraqi magazines, including now. They write about it. Was it the Shashoua Castle was it the reality, was it, uh, a myth in Arabic. And I have a few of these and then they said no, it was a real story and now it's become the person taking care of it is very proud of it and, uh, it's like a museum to him. Um, new museum piece. I think he, he bought it with the furniture at the time. And, uh, he has the history of who has been living there. And my grandmother's name is included, and, uh, grandfather and the king and then who took over. He bought it in the '50s for something like 500 dinars, I think. Something very normal.

John Bellgrad (00:10:32):

If we could go back, you said your father was educated in Britain.

Lisette Shashoua (00:10:35):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

John Bellgrad (00:10:35):

Do you know why that was?

Lisette Shashoua (00:10:37):

Well, that was the fashion then. Because the British came to, uh, uh, to Iraq. And it was, uh, what we aspired to, like in Iraq. The British were their civilized country and all that. And, uh, my dad being, uh, the son of a wealthy person he wanted, his father wanted to give him good education. So he sent him and his brother to England, uh, to boarding school. And, uh, I think my dad also went to London School of Economics.

John Bellgrad (00:11:11):

Can you tell me what business your father got into?

Lisette Shashoua (00:11:14):

Uh, he was, uh, in the property of like my grandfather, who had gathered a lot of property when he was alive. So my dad was, uh, running that, uh, along with his, uh, co-inheritors with were his brothers. Um, he was also in commerce, in importing tea coffee. Uh, he was a, he, he was into import. But, uh, the sad part was that when his older brother left Iraq, uh, and then his other brothers went to India. They were not able, the, the he had three brothers. One of them passed away from typhoid at a very young age. Uh, like 36. He had four children, and he died. Um, within five days, he got something like typhoid or something like that, or typhus, and he just passed away.

Lisette Shashoua (00:12:18):

Um, his children were in India, because the Second World War had started and he wanted to protect them. So he sent them to India. And, uh, that's what happened in the Second World War. Many Iraqi-Jews went to India to escape the arrival of, uh, the Germans. Because the Germans came to Germany, came as close as Egypt at the time to Tobruk in Egypt. So the Jews were really worried. Because they started to build, um, concentration camps for the Jews. I don't know if you're aware of it. Anyway, um, where was I? (laughs)

John Bellgrad (00:13:03):

Um, you were talking about your father's business in him dealing with property? What sort of property did they do and then sale?

Lisette Shashoua (00:13:13):

Well, the property that my grandfather, uh, collected during his lifetime. He had, uh, um, gosh, I'm losing the words. Um, they were many, like hundreds of acres of land and agricultural land. And it was mainly land, property land more than buildings with my dad. My grandfather had, uh, he had, um, a hospital, um, called [Moustache Fotatofel 00:13:48]. Uh, he had land in Basra, my grandfather on my mother's side.

Lisette Shashoua (00:13:54):

Uh, and, uh, the ironic part was, with all the land and the property my grandfather had accumulated, he was one of the richest Iraqis, Iraqi Jews or Iraqis, even in Baghdad in the '20s and '30s and '40s. By the time my father came out of Iraq at age 80, he came with zero. Not because they lost the property, but because the property was either confiscated or frozen. The assets were frozen, so Jews were not allowed to sell their property from '63 onwards. And my dad's brothers who are outside Iraq, who inherited my grandfather, were not allowed to sell anything as well. Because they were Denationalized because they were not living in Iraq. So they lost their, um, their privileges of selling their own... They, they had lost their inheritance for the simple fact that they left Iraq.

Lisette Shashoua (00:15:02):

And, uh, they lost all their inheritance and the government confiscated everything. And my dad was the last of the brothers to leave. So he was left with his part. And his party couldn't sell from 1963 till he got out, which was in '90, 1990. At one point, there was a small window where he could sell and then it's closed up again, from '80 to '90 again. But he was hardly able to sell anything.

John Bellgrad (00:15:31):

Do you know what your father and his wealth?.

Lisette Shashoua (00:15:37):

My mom was one of, uh, they were four, six siblings. Uh, and in Iraq, uh, my father, my grandfather, I remember him, [Yaomir Dautaskhal Haim 00:15:54], his name. And my grandmother is [Sarah Khatun 00:15:59]. Uh ,my grandfather died in '67, right after the, the, uh, Six Day War with Israel. And he had read, he had made, uh, a will a year or two before that everything goes to his children. And he partitioned it. However, because he was Jewish, it had to go under Muslim law. Which meant that the boys get to shares, where the girls get one. So the fact that there were six, two boys and four girls, the property was separated in eight. Right? So my mom's inheritance was 1/8 of her grandfather. And the wife, which is my grandmother gets, I think, 1/3. I'm not sure, but I think it's a third. So however, the 1/3 and the 1/8 was tied to the seven eighths that now belong to the government, because all the brothers and sisters were outside Iraq. So they weren't denationalized.

Lisette Shashoua (00:17:13):

So for instance, the house that my mom and grandmother inherited, my mom had 1/8 of the house, my grandmother had something like 1/3, I don't know exactly how it works. The government owned seven eighths now of the house. So my grandmother and my mother had to pay rent to the Iraqi government for the part that belonged to their brothers and sisters, to my brothers, my mother's brothers and sisters. So like because the government's part became bigger than what my mom and grandmother owned. It was crazy. Everything about the whole thing is crazy.

John Bellgrad (00:17:57):

When your father was studying in Britain, did he have a British passport?

Lisette Shashoua (00:18:01):

No, no, he did not. He was there for a few years. I don't know how many. Uh, he didn't have a British passport.

John Bellgrad (00:18:08):

What did he do following his education in Britain?

Lisette Shashoua (00:18:11):

He came to Baghdad. I think he can temporarily to help with something I can't remember. And then he got married to my mom and he stayed (laughs).

John Bellgrad (00:18:25):

What sort of work did he do then?

Lisette Shashoua (00:18:28):

He worked with his father and he did the commerce. Yeah. You know, the import export and stuff.

Henry Green (00:18:46):

Okay. It's Henry green, continuing with the interview. So, um, you were born in '48. And and, um, the community had very much, um, um, migrated, uh, over the period of '48, '51. And you went to, um, the Menkham Daniel school and then you went on to the Frank Aini school. And what year did you graduate from the Frank Iny school?

Lisette Shashoua (00:19:23):

'65, I guess.

Henry Green (00:19:26):

'65. So what was-

Lisette Shashoua (00:19:29):

'65, '66.

Henry Green (00:19:30):

So what was life like in this period post '62, '65. Your last year is in this Jewish parochial school? Um, um, what, did you have contacts with Muslims? What was, was there a kind of fear that you had because life had changed?

Lisette Shashoua (00:19:50):

Um, from '62 and when Khassim was killed the Baath party came. And it started with Abdul Rahman Arif. And I think Salam was in the background we didn't even know existed, but he was there. Because he was the one who did a coup d'etat against, uh, Khassim. We were not aware how bad it was going to be. But they started to tighten the screws, um, in '63 when Abdul, when Abdul Salam came.

Henry Green (00:20:18):

And how did you, how did that affect you personally.

Lisette Shashoua (00:20:20):

It affected me personally, I, we used to travel when I was a kid. Every summer, we used to go to Lebanon, to Iran, to Europe, uh, to Paris, to Nice to, you know, so the first thing it affected was our travel. Jews, we're not allowed to travel anywhere from '63 onwards. Um, that was the first thing. And then also Jews were not allowed to sell property. So that started putting the, uh, tightening again, on my parents, on my dad who owned property. That's what he had. And, um, and, and, uh, you know, he was dependent on it. He thought we had enough money to go for 100 lifetimes maybe. Um, and-

Alex Broadwell (00:21:11):

Did you and your friends at school talk about this?

Lisette Shashoua (00:21:14):

N-n-not much, you know. It's like the canary that you put in the coal mine. Uh, when you take away a bit of oxygen, it doesn't feel it, though. You know, it was slow. It was slow. It was, I mean, you think it's temporary. It's going to open up any time. You don't think it's going to, no we didn't, we were growing up and we were still teenagers. W-we felt the, uh, un-discomfort. Uh, but it wasn't as bad as it became. We kept thinking it's gonna get better. Uh, we did have a few Muslim people in our school in Frank Iny, who were the children of, uh, ministers or something. Because their parents wanted better education for them. And some were very well, uh, assimilated with us. Um-

Henry Green (00:22:01):

Did they visit your house? Did you invite them back to your house?

Lisette Shashoua (00:22:04):

Not me personally, because I didn't have a Muslim guy in our school. We had one that came for a year and I think he was very, he was very uncomfortable maybe. But others did. And, uh, in other classes, higher and lower classes. They had very close friendships with a few, uh, with a few people who they grew up with. And [Nahem 00:22:26] too, we have some Armenians and some Muslims that we were friendly with.

Henry Green (00:22:31):

But this would be outside the house?

Lisette Shashoua (00:22:33):

Yeah.

Henry Green (00:22:34):

And so did that mean-

Lisette Shashoua (00:22:36):

But we did have Muslims. My parents had very nice Muslim, very modern, secular Muslim friends. And I have a beautiful picture of them a New Year's Eve. And my parents were with three other couples were all Muslims.

Henry Green (00:22:51):

But and did they visit your house? These Muslim friends?

Lisette Shashoua (00:22:55):

Yes. Yes.

Henry Green (00:22:55):

At dinner at your house?

Lisette Shashoua (00:22:56):

Yes. [crosstalk 00:22:57]-

Henry Green (00:22:56):

And what language would they speak?

Lisette Shashoua (00:22:59):

Arabic and English.

Henry Green (00:23:00):

Arabic-

Lisette Shashoua (00:23:01):

This were the high class muslims. Uh, my dad used to have raised horses in Baghdad. And, uh, he used to have a lodge, right next to the king, when the king was around. And, uh, and we have another family friends who were very close to, um, I think it was [Tolefkhia's 00:23:22] wedding. Uh, also a minister in the Iraqi government. They were very close too and yes, they visited each other. And before the '67 War, uh, it was, and we had people who worked with my dad. The, the guy who worked with my dad was Muslim and his cu, his cousin or nephew worked with us too. Like he worked for my dad.

Henry Green (00:23:47):

And was the... Did you speak French anywhere or just, uh, Arabic and English.

Lisette Shashoua (00:23:52):

No, Arabic and English more. We did study French because my mom was very well educated in French from Alliance Francaise. She tutored me every day. We had our school was a Jewish school, obviously, we had a for, an English teacher from England to teach us the right accent in English. We had a French teacher from France, to teach us the right accent in French. And my mom had an excellent French accent. So she's, the French teacher used to give us a lot of homework. And, uh, my mom is to help me a lot. She used to just sit me down and tutor me for about two hours a day with her French. I'm very lucky. I mean, do you know I had a very good education in French.

Henry Green (00:24:39):

And did you, uh, in that time, as a youth, uh, as a teenager, uh, would you go to movies? Would you-

Lisette Shashoua (00:24:47):

Yes. Yes.

Henry Green (00:24:48):

And what kind of movies [crosstalk 00:24:50]-

Lisette Shashoua (00:24:50):

We were lucky enough, up to '67 all the movies were French or American. And we did go to French and American movies. And we did have all those French songs and the French and english movies. And when the twist came, we twisted and rock and rolled and, um, because all this was before '67. Uh, and we were very affected by, uh, the movies. And I grew up on comic books. My dad used to buy me all the comic books there were. From Little Lulu to Bugs Bunny to, I grew up on comic books. I probably, probably we have one of the first Archie books, um, comic books. Imagine what it would be worth now. We had all those comic books at home. Like 30, 40 a, a month. And I used to read them within two days.

Lisette Shashoua (00:25:45):

And that's, I grew up on comic books. I learned about the American lifestyle, from the comic books. From the ice cream soda to the pancakes. And I never knew what they tasted like.

Henry Green (00:25:57):

Did, did, uh, was discussion about Israel, uh, during these years, pre '67.

Lisette Shashoua (00:26:05):

We were not allowed to mention the word Israel. We were afraid. We were afraid to mention the word Israel. We were afraid to make, to draw the star of David. This is while I was growing up.

Henry Green (00:26:17):

Your parents taught you-

Lisette Shashoua (00:26:18):

Even in the time of [Umar 00:26:19], the King.

Henry Green (00:26:20):

Did your parents teach you that or... ?

Lisette Shashoua (00:26:22):

Yes. They told us not to talk about Israel. They told us if anybody asks, we are Iraqis. And our, uh, loyalty is to Iraq. If anybody asks, like we have to, you know... This is, we live in Iraq. We are Iraqis. We're not allowed to say anything about Israel. But I remember on one of my trips to Iran, when the sh-sheikh was there. I was probably 10 years old. And in Iran, I see, I see people were mentioning it. Actually, they never, like if they want to say somebody went to Israel. They used to say somebody went to that place. Especially, in front of us. The word Israel, is not mentioned in Iraq. Even in the '50s, when life was good, at the time was the king.

Lisette Shashoua (00:27:09):

Um, when I went to Iran, and we were coming back to, uh, to Iraq. And, I, in Iran, everybody was mentioning Israel. Because the Sheikh was good with Israel. And it was like such a relief to be able to say the word. And I remember we were packing to go home and I asked Mom, can we say Israel here? She said, "Yes." Can I say it loud? Yes. And I remember like I said, "Israel, Israel, Israel, Israel, Israel, Is, for about ten minutes. And then, the, the top of my voice. Because I knew when I get to Baghdad, that word I can't mentioned. And this was when I was 10. So this means, it was in '58, even when the king was there.

Henry Green (00:27:52):

So '67 comes and, uh, how did you learn about the war?

Lisette Shashoua (00:28:00):

Whoo. Well, the war (laughs) we were in a movie. And we had a driver in Baghdad. We had a driver. We had the cook. We had, uh, cleaning lady. We had a gardener. Uh, the milkman came on a donkey bringing the milk, uh, freshly squeezed, muslim. And he used to live at my grandparents house. He, they practically brought him up. And then he went on his own and he started to distribute milk every day. So it's a whole history. Now, how we found out, we were in a movie. I wish I remember which. I think it was an Arabic one, maybe an Egyptian one.

Lisette Shashoua (00:28:43):

And the driver came to pick us up. Because I always was, the car was for me, really, mainly. Because to protect me as being the little girl. My dad used to take taxis. Well, I took the car, to be with my friends and give them lifts and my girlfriends. I was very protected. I was a number one because I was a girl. And the driver came, if the driver, uh, `doesn't hear well. He was an oldly gentleman. So he came in he was, I heard, the first thing I heard. When the movie was over. Somebody came in, and the cleaning person said "The world is upside down." And these people are sitting like watching the movie. We didn't know what happened. We thought there was another revolution, we're used to it. We go to sleep, we wake up, a revolution. You'll hear, boom, boom, boom, boom, you say, "Oh, another revolution. I don't have school today."

Lisette Shashoua (00:29:40):

I mean, we were used to b-b-bullets, stray bullets coming through the house from one window going out the other. We have to duck under the, uh, the table. This is when the revolutions, when they are fighting between themselves. (chuckles) It still affects us. Anyways, so, uh, then the driver, with the doctors. I said, "What happened sir?" His name was Samuel. I loved him. He was wonderful. He was Armenian. And he was so loyal. I always feel bad that I left without telling him goodbye. So, um, I said, uh, "What happened?" And he would, wouldn't answer. I tried to open the radio. He tipped my hand. He wouldn't answer. We went home, I open, um, I tell mom, "What happened?" She told me, "A war."

Lisette Shashoua (00:30:29):

O-obviously, they heard it on the radio or TV right away. And for the five, six days, every time we are hearing the radio, they're saying, "We are winning. We are going to throw the Jews in the sea. We are winning, we're gonna, we're, we're gonna raise the Arab flag in about half an hour on Te-Telaviv. Uh, for five, six days, I don't think the world knew what was happening. But us more than ever, we're hearing, "Kill, kill, kill." You know. Uh, bite them. Uh, you know. The, claw them, kill them. I mean, that's, that's, what seven year olds in Baghdad, were singing. Instead of singing nursery rhymes. They're singing, kill them, kill them, kill them. That's what they teach them. So we were terrified. Of course, we were. We were absolutely terrified. And we would listen to Israeli radio very low.

Henry Green (00:31:26):

How did you get Israeli radio?

Lisette Shashoua (00:31:28):

Oh, we could get it to the, on the, on the radio. It's like, uh, the wavelengths we could get it. But we had this cook that lived with us that was like a spy. She, she would steal. And if you confront her with it, she'd tell you, "You go say that, you go, and, and kick me out. And I'll go say your spies. You kick me out and I go, so you listen to Israeli radio." She listened too, by the way. Anyway, I remember very distinctly, we, well, then we had no phones by now. The phones were cut off right away. Like, just around that time. And I remember my friends came over, we were, we were boys and girls who went out in a group. We were about 10 or 12 of us, classmates.

Lisette Shashoua (00:32:19):

All of us classmates from Nahema and Frank Iny. So we became very close. Sorry. So, um, we were huddled over the radio. We had to find a corridor in our house that had no windows and no doors. It was a corridor where you could walk, go to the garden. Its the only place where nobody can hear you, if you have the radio on. So we opened the transistor radio. And, uh, we were listening to it very softly. And they said, "This is Israeli radio from Jerusalem." The holy land. We were flabbergasted. We couldn't believe it. We couldn't believe Israel won.

Lisette Shashoua (00:33:04):

And, uh, my dad said, you know something, whatever they do to us now, I don't care. Israel won. They can kill us now. I don't care, Israel won. So that's how we found out about the war.

Henry Green (00:33:19):

D-did, um, before when there were the revolutions, or during the Six Day War, do parents keep you at home? Did they... How did they protect you?

Lisette Shashoua (00:33:31):

I had to go to school. I still went to school. I did go to school, but like there were days when it was scary. When there are revolutions, none of us went. And we used to, when we had phones, we used to call each other. Are you going? Are going to school? And we had to talk in code on the phone. Because the phone was also, uh, surveyed. So, uh, you know, things like, "Oh, are you taking the book today? Or are you reading the book today?" Instead of saying are you going to school today?

Henry Green (00:34:02):

And how did you learn these codes?

Lisette Shashoua (00:34:03):

We created them as we went along with them-

Henry Green (00:34:07):

[crosstalk 00:34:07] classmates.

Lisette Shashoua (00:34:06):

... Because the parents of my girlfriend was scared. My parents were scared. We knew we had to be careful. We knew, you know, you tell a kid something, they understand. When there is a danger, they know.

Henry Green (00:34:21):

D-do you remember any personal, do you have any personal memories of this danger, this fear of being-

Lisette Shashoua (00:34:28):

All along. All along, um, even before. You know they used to, uh, they used to pinch girls when they walk in the street and you can't tell them anything. They used to say this Jewish girl. Uh, they used to give you like real dirty looks that are scary, and you can't look back at them. You can tell them to leave you alone. You can't say a word. Because if you answer them, they will come for more. And we used to walk like, even in, when if I walk the length of the house alone. I used to walk with my head on the ground and not look up. And I would get abuses and I didn't, mind you, all women get abuses, I assume there.

Lisette Shashoua (00:35:11):

And, uh, they used to watch us all the time. And after the '67 War, there was a guy in an armchair just like you sitting there. In an armchair just in front of our house, writing down everything, and everybody is going in or out of the house. And sometimes harassing them. Telling them who are you? Why are you here? My grandfather, my mother's father was one of the very few. before the '67 War, was able to obtain a passport, because he had stomach cancer, colon cancer.

Lisette Shashoua (00:35:48):

He went to England to get operated on, during, just before the war, just before the war. And he was recuperating during the war. Now had he not come back, we were living in his house, in my, we were living in my grandmother, by my maternal mother's house at this point. Because when my uncle died, uh, and the house, the Shashoua house had to be sold. That's the second one, not the palace, beautiful one that was on the water, that they built after. And, uh, my, my cousins left. So anyway, I can get back to that, because that was a very nice house. And it was also, uh, rented by the British, uh, consulate, British Embassy. Uh, it was rented out to them.

Lisette Shashoua (00:36:42):

So we moved to my maternal parents house. So had my grandfather not come back after the '67 War, they would have kicked us out of the house. So he came back with my grandmother, uh, about a month later. And when he came back, they didn't know who he was. He was going for a walk, and they'll run after him saying, "Who are you?" And then they sent somebody from the Ministry. My dad, my grandfather was 70, at the time. They sent somebody from the ministry to come and see why he was away. Was he really sick? And I still remember my grandfather showed them the cuts. That was barely healing. Even the guy was, was like, "Oh, I'm sorry, sir. I'm sorry." They used to have some respect for older people there. And the guy left. Like he, he believed that my grandfather had an operation, he didn't go to spy on him. Um-

Henry Green (00:37:39):

So this period after '67-

Alex Broadwell (00:37:41):

Let me change cards real quick. Sorry. Okay.

Lisette Shashoua (00:37:50):

Thank you. Can I see?

Alex Broadwell (00:37:53):

Sure. You can. How have you done

Lisette Shashoua (00:37:57):

Anybody for anything, sweetie. There's, there's hot coffee, if you like some.

Henry Green (00:38:01):

When was that?

Alex Broadwell (00:38:05):

Okay, we're just waiting for it.

Henry Green (00:38:05):

Yeah.

Alex Broadwell (00:38:10):

Thank you.

Henry Green (00:38:15):

So one of the things you're talking about this set ,is how a life's changed in extraordinary ways. But in other ways, maybe, um, life was the same. Did you still have siestas? Did you still enjoy the other parts of your daily living?

Lisette Shashoua (00:38:34):

Yes. But now, we are afraid, you see. I mean, one thing I miss about Baghdad, were the beautiful garden. We had all kinds of f-fruits, and, and, and the orange blossoms in, in spring with the whole garden smelled. And we had jasmine flowers and white jasmine and pink jasmine and fig trees and I used to climb on those fig trees and cut myself when I was a kid. And we had appl-apple trees and, and oranges and, and ,and, uh, lemon, grapefruit, pomegranates, we are all that in the garden. So it was wonderful. I loved it. And, uh, I-

Henry Green (00:39:24):

D-did you continue sleeping on the roof post '67?

Lisette Shashoua (00:39:27):

We continued for a while. Yes, we continued for a while, they were starting to get scarier. Because some of the roofs are connected to each other. So people usually if there's a thief or something that come from the rooftop. But we were, with our neighbors at the time, we were, uh, uh, it was cousins of ours but then that place was sold. Uh, and, and, and then, uh, and then it became a company. So we were started to be afraid to sleep on the roof. But they still try, because we were numbers. Like you know, my, me, my mother, father, my grandmother, so, so, all of us in numbers. But it was becoming more creepy a little. Um-

Henry Green (00:40:16):

Did, did the, did, um, ordinary life change in the sense that, uh, you are more fearful to go to movies or to-

Lisette Shashoua (00:40:25):

Yeah. And the movies changed. They started to bring movies from Russia. Uh, American movies were less, you know. And much more Arabic music, much more Egyptian. Um, and, uh, I remember if we wanted to go and kind of just have, uh, you know, just, just to be together, we used to go to one of those Russian movies and just not even watch the movie. Just enjoy being with each other. Uh-

Henry Green (00:40:58):

What was, you went on to Al, uh, Al-Hikma, uh-

Lisette Shashoua (00:40:59):

University.

Henry Green (00:41:00):

University.

Lisette Shashoua (00:41:01):

Yes.

Henry Green (00:41:01):

And you studied what there?

Lisette Shashoua (00:41:03):

I studied Liberal Arts. I never thought I would have to make a career, you know. I thought I was just pursuing my interests. I never thought I'd have to work for a living. I always thought, I'll always be taken care of by my dad, who, who inherited a lot of money. Uh, little did I know, I would have to be on my own afterwards.

Henry Green (00:41:33):

When you went to university, there must have been very few Jews who were at the university.

Lisette Shashoua (00:41:37):

Well, the year I graduated, all the Jews were accepted in the university, because we were amongst the highest. Uh, uh, uh, we, uh, you know, our scores our, our, were amongst the highest. So all the class practically from Frank Iny, which was maybe 30 or 40 of us, I can't remember, let's say 30. All of us were accepted, plus the classes ahead of us. However, after the '67 War, Jews were not allowed to go to university anymore. Not only that, we were threatened every day that we might be kicked out of university. To go to university also, we had to pass a, uh, an army checkpoint, Baghdad army checkpoint. So they used to look at our IDs. Luckily, our university ID didn't say we were Jewish, but our name could be traced. Like my name was Lisette. Uh, but my dad's name was [Menashi 00:42:43] and they go by the name of the Father. So Lisette Menashi, Menashi by itself is a Jewish name. That's enough to, you know, give you away as a Jew.

Lisette Shashoua (00:42:54):

So, every day we went to university, we had our hearts in our mouth. When we had to go by, via the checkpoint. Every day going and coming. We used to have a ta, we used to go by taxi. We shared six of us, I don't know, there will be cars, then five of us or six. And, uh, we used to be scared every day, crossing. We were all Jewish, all the Jewish friends. And, you know, we had the same classes. So there was a time when I didn't want to continue. I was too scared. And my parents just pushed me to go, because-

Henry Green (00:43:34):

And do you have, do you remember any, um, um, bad incidents or anything [crosstalk 00:43:40]?

Lisette Shashoua (00:43:39):

Oh, God, yes. In '67, they arrested, uh, a few people from university. And it was not even a Muslim. It was one Muslim, one Christian, who were I think, trying to get close to the Baath party. And one girl who was also in liberal arts ahead of me, she was in class, ahead of me. She's the only girl, I was the only one in liberal arts. I was the only Jew in my class because all the other Jews were more, uh, you know, they were ambitious. They went to the either, um, H-Hekima had only engineering and business and liberal arts. So that's our choice. So the bright ones went to engineering, the others went to commerce, mainly the girls, to business. And Hilda, the, my, my friend and myself were the only ones in liberal arts. So, uh, s-somebody in her class said that he saw, um, he saw, uh, like filthy hands or dirty hands draw the Star of David on the blackboard. Which he didn't do. But they arrested her for that.

Lisette Shashoua (00:45:04):

She was one of the first girls to get arrested. And then there were another, uh, class or classmates of mine, of [Nahenda 00:45:14], they live in Montreal now and in London. They beat them up, they literally beat them up. And they all they could do, they, was defend themselves. They were kicking them in the head and the stomach. And told them when you see, as I told you, we all have taxis. Because it was far, to pick us up. So they had their taxi coming up, the boys, the, the Jewish boys. And the, um, Muslim came and told them, no, you're not taking them, let them walk.

Lisette Shashoua (00:45:46):

And they kick them and they kick them in the head and in the stomach. And some of them, they, uh, I don't know, they took them away. And they told them, we can kill you and throw you in the ditch, you just like a dog. You're a Jew, you're dog, nobody will miss you. And another guy, they threatened, he had a car and you know, his, his father died. So he inherited the car. He was coming to class with the car. And they told him, "If you come back, we'll kill you." Him and another guy, and they stopped coming to university altogether. And the guys they kicked also were scared to come back. But, but they did.

Lisette Shashoua (00:46:23):

And, uh, we were constantly harassed. Constantly, since the '67 war. Constantly harassed by those muslims. Being given dirty looks. And when the ultimate, the worst part came, the culmination. When they hanged those innocent Jews, it was our midterm exams, we had to go. And I remember even our mean cook came back from her day off. It must have been a Monday, (chuckles) she was gone Sunday, I guess. She came back from her day off. And she had to pass by that, uh, th-that ci-circle where they were hanging. And she said, "Don't go to school, they hanged them all." Because it was, it happened very suddenly. They, they, we heard the trials, uh, th-they were kind of tried to be executed, uh, on midnight or something. And, and by then they were already executed. But then they were already killed in the, in the, in prison. And then they brought them and, and hang them here. They hanged them in prison then they brought them.

Lisette Shashoua (00:47:35):

And I don't know if I said it before, but some of them were wearing gloves because they had already taken their nails off, their hands off, whatever. Anyway, it was a nightmare. So we have to go to university. And the guy that comes to pick us up the same guy is a Muslim. And he's a nice guy. He, I was the first he picked up. He told me, "I just came, I just came from the square. And you should see one guy's head like... " I was, "Please don't tell me." And I have to act that I'm happy that they got rid of the spies. Because I, if I'm not happy, I'm one of them. You cannot imagine the terror, the grief you have for the people who died, because you know them. And the terror you have for being blamed that yourself, because you know their innocence. So it could be you. Anybody could say you're a spy, anybody. And they believe them.

Lisette Shashoua (00:48:37):

The guy was delighted, he was elated. When he was describing them to me, what he's seeing, the dead people. And they will pick up the second girl, my girlfriend and we were like tried to cry, and we are afraid to cry because we are in the taxi. The driver is Muslim, even though he knows us for the full year. Doesn't matter. Then were picked up the other, and one of them, uh, was one of her cousins were, uh, were killed, you know. And the silence in the car, it's was like a 30, 40 minute drive. The silence in the car, I still remember. We were like, stunned. But part of me is saying, "I'm going to go to university and those people are educated. And they will know that this was Mickey Mouse trials." These people were blamed for something stupid. One of them was 16 years old. He was blamed for having blown up a bridge. We were now '69, he was like 12 years old when they, when he was supposed to have blown up the, the bridge that's still around but hasn't been blown up.

Lisette Shashoua (00:49:45):

So imagine the terror. You are in a, in a, Mickey Mouse government, with a Mickey Mouse trial with people out there, to ge-get, to get you. We got to university we expected some sympathy. Because at the time up to '67, people tried to copy from us. Or have, uh, explained to the parts of, uh, you know, the curriculum because we were bright. They want to sit with us in end year exams, they want a copy from us. All of a sudden, we go to the university, and they have those banners. We welcome what the government did, we want more? And they are, they're having a rally, cheering what ha, the, the fact that these people are hanging.

Lisette Shashoua (00:50:32):

And we, we were in the rally. We had to act that we're happy too. I thought to myself, I always wanted to be an actress. And this is probably the biggest role, I've ever done. Tried to show I'm happy. I'm sure my face told everything. I thought, I was acting, I'm sure, I'm sure, it showed I was horrified. And this, your friends looking at you. Your class, these are people we knew, looking at us and saying we want more of what the government did, like y-you are next. They were so elated. And they live now in London, those people. And they tried to contact us in Facebook.

Henry Green (00:51:11):

Hmm. Did you, were your parents ever arrested?

Lisette Shashoua (00:51:15):

My dad was arrested, he sold the carpet and they arrested him. He was arrested also in '50 or something when his brother left Iraq. His brother somehow did a deal and went bankrupt. My dad had a very hard time, because he's, he, bailed his brother out by bringing money that he had already in the States. They were going to immigrate to the States, my parents. He brought all the cash money back and gave it to his older brother who went bankrupt to bail him out. And his older brother gave him, uh, his, uh, p-power of attorney of, he was bringing tea for instance from India. But at the time, I still have the figures. It was 70,000 dinars, the dinar is like an English pound. It was $3 to the dinar. So that was a fortune in 1950 or '48, or whatever. 70,000 dinars worth of tea that was not, that was not insured. And when it arrived, it was all rotten. It all, they had to throw it all in the river.

Lisette Shashoua (00:52:32):

And my dad had to pay for it. Because he, um, uh, you know, he, what's the, what's the name, when you kind of, uh, try to bail somebody out. Uh-

Henry Green (00:52:44):

You become the, uh, f-f-fiduciary responsible.

Lisette Shashoua (00:52:50):

Whatever, whatever. And, uh, and, and, uh, because he, you know, and, and my dad was in debt for years. Even when the Jews were still allowed to sell. So he had to sell property, a lot of property and took him 10 years to pay the debts of my uncle.

Henry Green (00:53:08):

So when he's arrested the second time post '67-

Lisette Shashoua (00:53:13):

Oh, the first time, sorry-

Henry Green (00:53:13):

That was the first. But the-

Lisette Shashoua (00:53:13):

... that's when he was arrested. He was arrested the first time because my uncle sent him a telegram when he got to Iran. We are grateful for what you did to us. And they ble, they told dad, "What is this?" Again, Israel, again, whenever they arrested him that first time. The second time, they arrested him because he sold the carpet.

Henry Green (00:53:32):

And did he go to jail?

Lisette Shashoua (00:53:33):

Yeah. For I don't know how long.

Henry Green (00:53:36):

Did you visit-

Lisette Shashoua (00:53:36):

A few days. A few days.

Henry Green (00:53:37):

Did you visit him in jail?

Lisette Shashoua (00:53:38):

No, no, no, it was after, I left. The one, the time when he was arrested for the carpet was after I left. And the time when he was arrested because of my uncle was when I was either a baby or I wasn't born yet.

Henry Green (00:53:52):

So if we, so in the period of '67, [inaudible 00:53:55] arrested-

Lisette Shashoua (00:53:55):

But every time a car came by especially at night, I would wake up and because they came at night and they ransacked the house, and my mom told me you have to keep it in mind. They're gonna either take you or your dad. You better prepare a bag, with your pajama, your toothbrush... My mom told me that imagine, because I was going to an American University. She said it's either you or your dad. One of you might be taken, uh, to be arrested. So every time a car pass by at night, I would, I would wake up, it would wake me up. Just the sound of the woosh, of the car and I hope it won't stop. I would pray, I would kneel and pray that the car does not stop. Because if he does, they came to arrest one of us.

Henry Green (00:54:47):

Did, did, uh, so you've, you've finally, um, decided to leave or have, what is the story [crosstalk 00:54:53]-

Lisette Shashoua (00:54:54):

Oh, everybody wanted to leave. Everybody but the, the Jews couldn't leave but what happened was. In, eh, the year '70, they tried to do a truce with Kurdistan. And by doing that truce, it was easier... Oh, and in after the '67 War, they came to each one of our homes. And tol-told us we're not allowed to travel more than, I don't know, 10 miles radius. We're not allowed to leave Baghdad, more than 10 miles radius, and we were being watched.

Lisette Shashoua (00:55:25):

And our phones were cut off by now. And we're not allowed to, uh, sell. And the kids at school were fainting from hunger because their parents were kicked out of all their jobs. All Jews were employed, we're told or kicked out. We were kicked out of all the clubs. Um, we belong to clubs, we went swimming, we belong, you know, we were kicked out of all of that as undesirables.

Henry Green (00:55:51):

So Kurdistan, you were saying there's this brief something in 1970-

Lisette Shashoua (00:55:56):

They were a brief truce between Kurdistan and Iraq. And that's when some of the Jews decided to try to go via Kurdistan. And the first one was, I think his name, I, I think it was for [Otsodai 00:56:10], he was the first one to live, he wrote a book, All Waiting To Be Hanged by Max Sawyadee. Have you read it? Anyway, I have a copy. (laughs). So, um, he wrote a day to day, uh, diary. Of what was happening to the Jews in comparison to what was happening in the world. Like if the, uh, Suez Canal, something happened, how it, how, how, how it ver-reverberated on how the Jews were being treated in Iraq. Everything that happened before the Six Day War. All the little political things that happened, how if reverberated for the Jews in Iraq. He had the Muslim partner who of course, kicked him out after-

Henry Green (00:56:56):

B-b-ut going back to your particular story, though, without me-

Lisette Shashoua (00:56:59):

Yeah, okay. Sorry.

Henry Green (00:56:59):

Um, the-

Lisette Shashoua (00:57:02):

So, so [Foartseldad 00:57:02] was the first to leave. And he was not going to, he, he was considered somebody who took chances. Like, he, he was not an ordinary guy, who didn't take chances. So people felt, Well, [Foad 00:57:13] did it, but we can't. You know, his too, uh, uh, he takes chances. But then another family left. And then others started to want to go. So it became, oh, and when you want to leave, you don't tell anybody, you don't tell your brother, you don't tell anybody you're not living with. You don't tell your neighbor. You don't tell your best friend for their good also. Because if they arrest them, they're gonna have to talk. So for their benefit, They don't know, and they have they have, haven't seen anything and they don't know anything. So its you're safe, and they're safe, and your source is safe.

Henry Green (00:57:54):

So how did you find your source? How did you do this?

Lisette Shashoua (00:57:58):

Well, that's it. What happened was the Jews started to leave to Kurdistan and just wait for a smuggler to help them out. And at one point, and, and Israel, and Iraq was paid, they were paid to let us leave. They just didn't want to give us, oh, [Foreign Language 00:58:17]. They said they are, okay, we'll let Jews leave Iraq. Because I'm sorry, I'm backtracking. But it's important to say that, when they hang the Jews and the world, it became a world outcry in England, in Israel said these are not our spies, etc. When they when they said all that, uh, Iraq said we, these are Jew, Iraqi Jews. And they belong to Iraq. And we have enough trees to hang all the Jews in Iraq. So we were petrified at this point.

Lisette Shashoua (00:58:51):

Now, when this happened, when Kurdistan, uh, people started to go up north and, uh, take a chance. Because now there were they were not allowed to leave more than 10 miles right. Anyway, they took a chance went up north waiting for a smuggler to pick them up. Now the government knew some and I don't know if they had people from the Iraq, Jewish community was, I don't know. But anyway, one day they decided, they went up north and they around them all up. And there was one or two hotels and coffee shops, they are outed 150 of them in one day. Brought them all the way back to Baghdad, put them in the Baha'i temple. Because the, the now the Baha'i's are being prosecuted. They put them in the Baha'i temple all of them and kept them there.

Lisette Shashoua (00:59:42):

But the good thing for them was that they were taking the men or taking them to interview them. Now what happened was, they were was escaping with their jewelry with their antique jewelry, with the, when they around them up. They threw their jewelry in the sewer. They throw it in the toilet. They throw it in the, you know, where the, you, you, the water goes in the toilet. They open that and throw it in the toilet. They threw diamonds, they threw diamond watches. They threw... Because that is indicating that you are running away. And they were all arrested. And there was a bit, and then I think somebody tried to reach, um, the French, uh, French guy I forget his name now. Who, uh, went and told them and she gave the names. When Iraqi Jewish woman who managed to get a letter smuggled out saying there's 150 people in, uh, in prison now. Uh, the youngest is 6 months old, the oldest was 80 years old.

Lisette Shashoua (01:00:44):

Um, so they said, when they confronted Baghdad, Iraq about it. They said we don't have any prisoners. So they gave them the names. They said, what are these? So they and then Nasser was killed or die. Nasser died, remember. When Nasser died, somehow, I don't know if they wanted to bring all the NASA rights now to arrest them. But somehow with all the pressure, they let the 150 Jews, they released them finally after torturing them and questioning them. And after putting them through the milth, three weeks or more.

Henry Green (01:01:18):

And you're, and you're living at home this time?

Lisette Shashoua (01:01:19):

I am living at home.

Henry Green (01:01:21):

So how do you get to Kurdistan?

Lisette Shashoua (01:01:22):

Okay. Um, after that, they're, i-i-it stopped. Nobody tried to go to Kurdistan. Then again, I had, uh, a cousin of my mother whose children were in, in London. And she was, she came to sell something and you know, because there was a, a very small window where, you could sell. Uh, some property to go back because she was a widow. [Maecel Shamash 01:01:45], she was wonderful. And, uh, she, she was desperate to go. And another family came to her and told her look, we are thinking of going in. The smuggler contacted, and the smuggler was... Each time a family leaves, they will send a smuggler back to get another member of their family. The smuggler contacted him because his sister left. And, uh, if she wanted to leave and they needed more. They needed one more young person for some reason to, you know, just... So she convinced my dad to take me.

Alex Broadwell (01:02:24):

[inaudible 01:02:24] for a second.

Lisette Shashoua (01:02:28):

She convinced-

Henry Green (01:02:28):

Wa-wa-wait, let's stop for a second.

John Bellgrad (01:02:28):

Okay. Sure, you can change cards again.

Henry Green (01:02:29):

Okay, so what I'm trying to do is just... Okay. [crosstalk 01:02:32] Okay, so you were talking about the smuggler, then they needed one more person?

Lisette Shashoua (01:02:38):

Yeah. So she-

Henry Green (01:02:39):

Did they contact your mother. Did they con-

Lisette Shashoua (01:02:40):

No. No, no, no, they contacted the, the guy, actually [Haim Rijwan 01:02:47], his name is. His brother was married to my sister in Canada now. And, and he lived in Iraq. So he went to Marcel and told her that he knew she wanted to leave, he told that she wants to go with him. And the, he said he will be able to take one more person. So Marcel came to my dad to convince him and told him, I'll take care of her, this and that my dad said, Okay.

Lisette Shashoua (01:03:14):

Uh, I couldn't believe it. Because this was right after all those people were arrested and it started. But my dad thought about it and said for, s-soon, it's gonna happen that... Well, my dad initially wanted to convince me to stay. He said, "Who's gonna inherit?" Your sisters can inherit. We have land galore. You have to stay to inherit the land, the properties. And you know, when you're young, you don't want to inherit anything. You want to live your life. And it was the most absurd thing. He told me, "I'll get you out. I'll get you a passport." I said, "I don't want." I said the people who left. You know, they're already out. I don't want to take a chance. I don't want to wait.

Lisette Shashoua (01:04:00):

I had graduated by then anyway, which was lucky. So, uh, so when Marcel convinced him he accepted. And, um, we were about to go on the 6th of November 1970. And [Haim Rejuon 01:04:19], the, the husband left, left ahead. So that if he gets caught, we don't get caught with him. And we had to go and buy an arbor, you know, the black thing you wear at, Marcel and I went to buy it. Mine was a little too long. I shortened it. And anyway, so we had it together somehow. She's bigger than me. And, um, and then when we were leaving, we went to the house of the people who are leaving and they said, "Oh, they just was a revolution in Kurdistan." That's it. That's it. I'm not sending her any excuse not to me. So we came back home.

Lisette Shashoua (01:05:00):

And that's when I found out my niece, [Tamara 01:05:02], was born that day. And then Marcel and Aman, who was the wife of Haim. And because she had three kids, Aman. They said, "That's it. We're leaving tomorrow." And I figured that city won't let me leave again. Miraculously, miraculously, and I accepted. I said, "What can I do?" I mean, already, he took a chance. Miraculously, I don't know what convinced my dad He said, "You know what? You go, with my blessing."

Henry Green (01:05:34):

And did you go by car?

Lisette Shashoua (01:05:34):

Pardon.

Henry Green (01:05:34):

By car?

Lisette Shashoua (01:05:37):

I went, that's what I was mentioning about our driver. My dad sent me with a driver with my luggage.

Henry Green (01:05:47):

To Kurdistan?

Lisette Shashoua (01:05:48):

No, no. We went to, you know, like in Israel, they, they have a, uh, sherut that takes people going up north. So when people come from all over, they, they get the five people and go. There was an understanding with the driver from Erbil to take us. He knew he was taking us. Now, he had his, his shift was known to leave the, the the taxi station. It's a huge taxi station, maybe 100 cars, 200. And he was supposed to be going to Erbil right now. How do you get to the right one, I went alone, Marcel, who was my neighbor now left on her own, so that it doesn't show. They sent, my dad sent me in my, with my driver, with our driver, who was our driver since I was 10.

Lisette Shashoua (01:06:44):

I was now 22. And, uh, he took me and I got off the car. And I don't know who or how I had the arbor on and I couldn't see I was tripping on it. That's why I'm saying it was long, I shortened it. I don't know if I mixed up with Marcel's. So, uh, I was tripping on it. I couldn't see I'm not used to working with it. And I heard the voice saying, there, the black car, follow me to black car. It was honestly like a movie, you know, and I saw then Aman standing with the kids. So I kind of went towards them. And of course, we're not supposed to know each other because we are just taking the car to Erbil. So we go there.

Lisette Shashoua (01:07:30):

And one, uh, lieutenant went in the car. Uh, a General in the army. I mean, this is what we are terrified of the most. He was going also to Erbil. We were lucky, Aman had a baby. The baby was screaming. Uh, You know, Frank, he's, he now lives in London. He was screaming his head off. He was crying. And then I guess that general looked around, looked at the baby and said he doesn't need this cry all the way, he got away. I mean, we were so relieved. So is the poor driver, and we all don't know each other. We're pretending, we're all wearing the arbor. And we're pretending we're just taking the car together. We're not talking to each other.

Lisette Shashoua (01:08:12):

And then, uh, the driver goes and recruits a Kurdish guy with a big turban stuff. He puts him upfront, he says "I'm going to Erbil, you want to come?" The guy comes in and sits. We are sitting three ladies in the back with three children. And it looks like where his family. He's Arab. We are all with the arbor. And we take off to Erbil. We had eight checkpoints to stop. Each checkpoint, well, all I had with me as an identification card was my driver's license and my, uh, university ID. Because it doesn't show, I'm Jewish in this two except my name. If you want to study it, and it doesn't show I'm running away. And I, my dad didn't give me money. He gave me very little money because if you have money, it means you're escaping, right? So he gave me a minimum amount. Luckily I had an uncle who lived in Iran.

Lisette Shashoua (01:09:10):

So every checkpoint before we get to it, Aman and I started to pray. Every checkpoint we passed, we started to thank God, you know, uh, I pray she must read every time the two of us. We are looking at each other and praying, every checkpoint. The first one the baby was crying. They saw us, they let us go. The second one the baby was sleeping like an angel. They saw us, they let us go. And then when they would ask for papers, they usually ask the men, thank God. So they were asking the Kurdish guy and the driver and we were left alone. That's why Haim went ahead of us.

Lisette Shashoua (01:09:51):

So we went to Erbil. The driver, uh, takes us to his little hut, literally. And he had babies and stuff, and they cook for us. And they make a meal and I was so grateful. I used to be very fussy, in eating. But here, I was so grateful they're saving us, it was all full of oil and stuff. I ate. I was the only who ate. I sang to the children. I felt so grateful that [inaudible 01:10:17]. I just sang English songs. I carried them like everything. Anyway, and we didn't know. How long are we staying in Erbil? What's going to happen next? Uh, then, uh, and the guy didn't know. And they didn't have phones there. I mean, they were not the most sophisticated. They had walkie talkies and all that. The Kurds and all that. And the poor driver, he didn't have a phone.

Lisette Shashoua (01:10:42):

So then he said, he doesn't know what's happening. And the driver was shaking. He said, If I could fly, I would fly, I would have flown. It was the first time he was taking people. And about two, three hours later, he thought... Well, the smugglers name was [Kadha 01:11:00]. That's like God to us. And another heaven piece was, the, we called it the log. The log is the border between Iraq and Iran in Erbil. So we always said the log. When we get to the log, we get to heaven. The log, the log, the log, we keep, we keep dreaming about the log. So anyway, Kadha came he took us, you know, the streets there. There were no streets. There were no streets. There was nothing paved. There was no lights.

Henry Green (01:11:32):

You walked?

Lisette Shashoua (01:11:33):

No, we were lucky. We didn't have to. Others did. Some of them, uh, to the, two weeks after us there was snow up north. We never saw snow. We never had boots, not even rain boots. It was never-

Henry Green (01:11:46):

So you dro, you drove?

Lisette Shashoua (01:11:47):

We were in a car. We were in this car with Kadha. A, a Jeep actually, with Kadha and he took us and now, we had to go get Haim. Who was in Kurdistan with Barazani. Sorry, we went to get Haim. Haim was beside himself. There's no phones. He didn't know why we're 24 hours late. He thought something happened to us. He was a wreck. And Haim, another guy Azuri, he lives in London now. So we went to get them, they came in the car, they came in the Jeep. The smugglers collected 250 dinars from us them, which is worth $750 today, each person. And apparently, Israel had made a pact with them. They were supposed to do it for free. The Kurds didn't want money. So these were only the smugglers. So while we are on our way up there in the wilderness in the middle of nowhere...

Lisette Shashoua (01:12:47):

Oh, so the, the way to tell my parents we arrived. We've cut, uh, $1, like a quarter of a dinar then was like the dollar was also green. We cut it in half, uh, Aman had half. And dad had the other half. You have to bring it and match it to say we are live. (chuckles) Well, she took out the half, the wind to blew the (laughs), the money away. And we couldn't catch it. Then as I said, no streets. No trees, no nothing. It's wilderness. Total wilderness. Dark, no streetlights, total wilderness.

Lisette Shashoua (01:13:25):

So anyway, at one point, we were in the car and we did get lost Kadha and his driver. They were looking around for the place somehow they, they lost. And here comes the, here come, uh, the, the military, the Iraqi military. They saw him, "Oh, it's Kadha, how are you? What are you doing?" He said, "Oh, I'm just taking the family for a ride." And he started, he started kind of telling us, "Okay, so your name is Fatima. Your name is, uh, Khadija. Your name... " He changed our names to Muslim names. He changed the kids names. He, they had, they had to ask them, "What's your name? What's your mother's name? What's her name, what... " We had to all remember each other's new names, Muslim names. And, uh, keep remembering to say, your name, say your name, say your name, he kept just like the movie are Argo.

Lisette Shashoua (01:14:19):

Anyway, and, uh, at one point, Haim tells them because the, the boss, he tells Barazani, "By the way, just to let you know because there are people who don't have money back there, they did take money from us." And, uh, you know, so then there was like a little fight between them. Like this one says, "We took money." The one says, "We didn't take money." And I could see them from the Jeep. One of them is yelling, you know. He's, he's, he's gun, I could, he's the, they are the only one with guns. And we're in the middle of nowhere and they're shaking and they're starting to yell at each other. I was so scared they would kill each other and we'd get lost. That was probably the scariest part, for me. I kept saying, "My God we got here. We got all the way here now, they're gonna kill each other we're gonna die." (laughs). Anyway, it worked out fine. And-

Henry Green (01:15:17):

And then crossed the border-

Lisette Shashoua (01:15:19):

We crossed the border to Iran. As soon as we crossed the border, we saw a picture of the Sheikh, and [Fakhdiba 01:15:25] and boy, we nearly kissed the ground. And Haim at the time, he was really a, a nervous wreck. He said, "Is this Iran? Is this Iran?" This, he started to moan. He started to cry, to moan in a little while. And, uh, once we got there, I think they told us, we had to stay. Uh, no, we didn't cross yet. You want the details or you don't?

Henry Green (01:15:50):

Well, I think we're gonna have to stop it here.

Lisette Shashoua (01:15:52):

Okay.

Henry Green (01:15:52):

Because, because John has to go back for an interview, uh, for a study abroad program.

Lisette Shashoua (01:15:57):

Oh.

Henry Green (01:15:58):

Would you be pleased to cut this off-

Alex Broadwell (01:15:59):

Okay.