Transcribed by: Rev
Interview date: November 29th, 2013
Interviewer: Henry Green
Location: Toronto
Total time: 1:46:40
David Shama: Born in 1945 in Cairo. Arrived in Marseille. Arrived in London. Arrived in Lima in 1957. Arrived in Montreal in 1962. Arrived in Toronto around the late 1970s/early 1980s.
Henry Green (00:00:00):
Today is November 29th, 2013. I'm here with David Shama. My name is Henry Green. Uh, the camera man is Daniel Cooper. We are in Toronto, uh, Canada and this is a interview for Sephardi Voices.
David Shama (00:00:39):
David Shama.
Henry Green (00:00:42):
And what was your name at birth?
David Shama (00:00:44):
David Roy Shama.
Henry Green (00:00:47):
And when were you born?
David Shama (00:00:50):
1945.
Henry Green (00:00:52):
How old are you?
David Shama (00:00:53):
I am 68.
Henry Green (00:00:56):
And where were you born?
David Shama (00:00:58):
Cairo Heliopolis.
Henry Green (00:01:01):
So I want to first thank you for, uh, sharing Sephardi Voices and telling us your story. We very much appreciate it. So let's begin with just a kind of general question. Tell me something about your family [inaudible 00:01:15]
David Shama (00:01:17):
My father was a businessman, a respected, well known businessman in business in Egypt. Originally from Syria, from Aleppo. He was primarily in the wheat business, flour. He basically grounded into wheat for baking purposes and what have you. And my mother was a stay at home mother. An affluent background, many servants, chauffeurs, gardeners, a life of opulence in every way possible, uh, as a boy. And unfortunately, as the events started to turn in the early 50s and Farouk was deposed, I believe it was in 52. Things started to change in Egypt and suddenly we became unwelcome visitors, basically in our own land as well because we were there for generations. My mother was, her family and my father by virtue of marrying her became also a m- you know, a member of the Egyptian community.
Henry Green (00:02:42):
You mentioned your father from Aleppo.
David Shama (00:02:45):
Yes.
Henry Green (00:02:45):
Um, can you tell me something about, uh, your grandparents, his, his parents' background?
David Shama (00:02:53):
To the best of my recollection, my father used to tell me that his father was a traveling salesman. His mother was a stay at home mom. They were moderately, very moderately comfortable. It was a hard life but it was different in Syria versus Egypt. And when my father was 15, he decided basically that he was gonna leave home and his mother gave him a five pound note and put him on a ship sailing off to south America and going to Peru, to Lima where he started seeking his fortune. But that's another story. As a man of 35, 36, he was looking for a spouse and somebody told him that there was a very good family of Alexandria with three daughters and that he should go there and meet them. And that's how he moved down to Alexandria, met my mother, married, her, took her back to Lima, lived there for a few years, two or three years.
David Shama (00:04:11):
My oldest sister was born in Lima but then they returned to Egypt, to Alexandria because my mother's father who was in the flower business was running into financial difficulties and was not well health wise. So they summoned my father to come and help. And that's when he liquidated his assets in Peru, moved to Alexandria with my mother and my oldest sister and settled in Alexandria and Cairo simultaneously.
Henry Green (00:04:47):
Do you remember your grandfather's name?
David Shama (00:04:49):
Yes. Solomon.
Henry Green (00:04:51):
And his wife?
David Shama (00:04:53):
Margaret.
Henry Green (00:04:54):
And was the name Sh- uh, Shama also, or?
David Shama (00:04:57):
Uh, on my mother's side, I'm talking.
Henry Green (00:05:00):
I m- Sorry. I was, I meant on your father's side.
David Shama (00:05:01):
On my father's, Regina and, uh, and Moses.
Henry Green (00:05:08):
And approximately your, your, your, your, your father was born approximately when?
David Shama (00:05:14):
In 19- excuse me, 1895.
Henry Green (00:05:17):
And so at age 15, it would be about 1910 pre-World War I-
David Shama (00:05:22):
Yeah.
Henry Green (00:05:23):
... that he went to Peru?
David Shama (00:05:24):
Yeah.
Henry Green (00:05:25):
And did your father have any languages-
David Shama (00:05:28):
Languages?
Henry Green (00:05:29):
... at that time?
David Shama (00:05:32):
Pri- Primarily he spoke Arabic. A little bit of Ladino and French, no English.
Henry Green (00:05:42):
And, uh-
David Shama (00:05:43):
And ironically enough, he didn't have a British passport then. The passport was acquired later on.
Henry Green (00:05:49):
And so he then, uh, was a, a citizen of the Ottoman Empire? Um, it's pre-
David Shama (00:05:58):
I would suspect he was while he was in, uh, in Syria as a young lad.
Henry Green (00:06:03):
Did he ever talk about Aleppo, what it was like in Aleppo?
David Shama (00:06:08):
Difficult life, struggling. A father that was continuously on the road and non-visible. Older brothers who basically abused him from a point of view of negligence and, you know, not enough food, not enough to get around. He was bottom man on the totem pole. That's what made him leave Aleppo.
Henry Green (00:06:36):
Did he ever mention any, uh, uh, persecution or issues with, uh, [inaudible 00:06:41]-
David Shama (00:06:41):
Jews?
Henry Green (00:06:42):
... in, in, in, while living in Aleppo? I mean, as a young child.
David Shama (00:06:46):
Somewhat, somewhat. But he never really delved very much into it. Aleppo was predominantly a very, very Jewish city at the time and Jews were quite visible and I think they stood strong together. So there wasn't really much, from a point of view of racism against Jews. It was controlled.
Henry Green (00:07:12):
Your, um, mother's, uh, family-
David Shama (00:07:16):
Yes.
Henry Green (00:07:16):
... you said they were long time in Alexandria?
David Shama (00:07:20):
Originally Spaniards.
Henry Green (00:07:22):
Originally, s- so people who had left the Inquisition or?
David Shama (00:07:26):
Yes. Who had escaped the Inquisition and settled in Alexandria.
Henry Green (00:07:31):
And did, um, they, uh, their names where you said Solomon and-
David Shama (00:07:38):
Salama.
Henry Green (00:07:38):
Salama and, Salama was the, the maiden name?
David Shama (00:07:44):
Was the family name.
Henry Green (00:07:46):
Family name. And they, um, what stories did your mother tell you about growing up in Alexandria?
David Shama (00:08:00):
Life was very much like a, like a book, a beautiful book. She can't remember any bad things happening. Any racism per se. They were fully integrated within the Egyptian community. Obviously they mingled within the middle-class to upper class of society. And they were very well-accepted. Egyptians were really not bad to the Jews at that period. I can't remember my mother ever saying that she suffered as a result of racism directed at her because she was a Jewish, no.
Henry Green (00:08:47):
Hmm. Your mother was born what year?
David Shama (00:08:50):
She was born in 1915.
Henry Green (00:08:52):
And grew up in Alexandria?
David Shama (00:08:54):
In Alexandria. And at the age of 16 met my father and married him. There was a 20 year spread between them. So she was 16. He was 36
Henry Green (00:09:06):
And they got married then in 1936. Is that it?
David Shama (00:09:10):
I would say so. Yes.
Henry Green (00:09:11):
All right. So do you, um, your, your grandparents or father's parents, did you ever meet them?
David Shama (00:09:19):
No.
Henry Green (00:09:20):
And do you have any memories about your mother's parents meeting them, your grandparents?
David Shama (00:09:25):
My grandmother.
Henry Green (00:09:26):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
David Shama (00:09:26):
My grandfather, unfortunately had passed away when I was born.
Henry Green (00:09:31):
Can you share with me some stories you have with your grandmother? Did she live with you? Did she [inaudible 00:09:36]
David Shama (00:09:36):
She, she lived with my mother's older brother. The family was very very tight. Holidays, we all worked together, tables accommodating 25, 30 people.
Henry Green (00:09:50):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
David Shama (00:09:52):
Her mother was really the glue of that family that kept the family together. She had four siblings, two brothers and two sisters. The brothers were in business with my dad. He had taken them in when their father passed away and basically assured my grandfather that he would look after the boys and make sure that he can establish them and make them self-sufficient. It was a very beautiful relationship. Beach houses in Alexandria, the beach family barbecues, get togethers. It was, it was truly a life that even as a young kid, my memory is quite vivid about it. We had just about everything you could imagine was available to us.
Henry Green (00:10:49):
What language did you speak to your grandmother?
David Shama (00:10:53):
We would sit at a table and unless you were part of the family, you certainly couldn't follow a conversation amongst us because we were going from English to French to Arabic to Italian. I called my grandparents nonno and nonna which was traditional in Egypt.
Henry Green (00:11:15):
And did, did your grandmother, for example, read stories to you or?
David Shama (00:11:20):
No, no, no. She would, she would sit down. She's a, she was a very aristocratic, tedious lady who was very very prim and proper. I remember my mother, my grandmother, my aunts going to the sporting club in Alexandria and sitting with the fans and their big hats. And it was an environment of sitting down with their petty plan, doing their little embroideries and gossiping and talking and actually very, very shallow in many ways.
Henry Green (00:12:00):
Did she play cards?
David Shama (00:12:02):
Yes. The bridge was the game.
Henry Green (00:12:06):
And was she a member of a particular club?
David Shama (00:12:08):
The sporting club in Alexandria.
Henry Green (00:12:10):
That's very cool. And what street, uh, did you live on in Alexandria?
David Shama (00:12:16):
We lived in, Alexandria was a city that was very cosmopolitan. And the neighborhood we lived in was called [inaudible 00:12:26] which is the Greek neighborhood. Alexandria's Greek community was quite large and they were quite prosperous. They had done very well. And that neighborhood was a very upper class neighborhood in Alexandria.
Henry Green (00:12:47):
So you lived in this house in the Greek quarter.
David Shama (00:12:50):
Yeah.
Henry Green (00:12:51):
Um, you had a chauffeur, you said and-
David Shama (00:12:54):
We had any, at any given time we had a staff of anywhere between five to seven people at the house.
Henry Green (00:13:01):
And the staff was made up of? Were they Jewish staff or were they, uh-
David Shama (00:13:06):
Arabs.
Henry Green (00:13:07):
... Muslims? There were Muslims?
David Shama (00:13:08):
Muslim Arabs for the most part.
Henry Green (00:13:10):
Did they live in the house?
David Shama (00:13:11):
And a couple of cops actually.
Henry Green (00:13:13):
Couple cops. They lived in the house or?
David Shama (00:13:16):
They lived in the house. They had the quarters in the house and they had everything available to them in the house. Yes.
Henry Green (00:13:23):
Can you describe for me your bedroom?
David Shama (00:13:29):
Very big when I was a kid. So it probably looked bigger back then than it did, it would today. Very big, sometimes a little bit unnerving. It was so big for a young kid to be in it. Uh, overlooking the garden because I had my dog in the garden. So I needed to have that room because we had a [inaudible 00:13:51] staircase going down to the garden and my dog would sneak into my room at night and beknown to my father and sleep in my bed.
Henry Green (00:14:00):
What kind of dog?
David Shama (00:14:01):
A German Shepherd.
Henry Green (00:14:01):
And what attracted you to German Shepherds?
David Shama (00:14:06):
That's a funny story. When I turned seven, I believe it's was six or seven, I wanted a dog and I was afraid of dogs. I was very fearful of dogs. I remember seeing a dog on the street I would panic and my father kept on talking to me about having a dog that it may build my courage when I meet animals. And one day my father came into my room and he says to me, "We're getting you the perfect dog. We're going to see the king." And I looked at him, I said, "What do you mean the king?" And it was King Farouk. I went into the car with my dad and the chauffer and we drove to the palace of Montaza in Alexandria, drove into the gates, obviously we were expected. Okay. So we got into the car, our chauffeur who happened to be a Copt and highly loyal to my father and the family.
David Shama (00:15:20):
His name was [inaudible 00:15:21]. I can remember that because he was my good friend. And my dad, we went to the palace of Montaza, we drove there. I had never been to the palace. I had seen it from the outside, from [inaudible 00:15:36] where we had our summer house on the beach. But I had never been to the palace and I, I remember as a young kid, I was overwhelmed coming to the gates, going through security and then pulling up in front of the main building. Maybe I see it differently today but I remember something in my memory sticks that I remembered looking up a staircase. And it was a big staircase at the front of the house, the main building. And I remembered looking up and seeing, in a white military uniform a [inaudible 00:16:19] gentleman with a red fez on his head.
David Shama (00:16:24):
And I remember he had a big mustache and it was King Farouk. And my father said to me, "It's the king. Bow your head." And I bowed, I remember and my father bowed too and then we looked up at him and from the top of the stairs, he said to my father in Arabic to come on up. And then one of his soldiers, like what, he had to be one of his staff or something. But he was a soldier because he was also addressed in a military. But he was in khaki, came to me and he said to me, because the king, I remember in a, a very broken English, it sounded broken. It wasn't fluent. He said to me, "So you are the boy who wants a dog, one of my dogs." And I said, "Yes, your majesty."
David Shama (00:17:20):
And he summoned this man, this officer to take me to the kennels. It was fascinating. I had never seen a kennel in my life. And here I was walking into this structure. Very simple, yet, very clean. It was impeccable, I remember. We walked down the middle and there were cages on either side with big German Shepherd dogs that scared the daylights out of me until we came up to a cage where there was a female shepherd nursing her pups. And the officer called the caregiver, ask him to take the female out of the cage. And then we stepped into the cage with the puppies around us. And he said to me, "Pick the one you want." And I remember getting on my knees and they were all over me, knocked me down. And I picked the chunky little guy that just wouldn't leave me alone. And it was love at first sight. And we became best friends for as long as I s- was in Egypt. And that dog saved our lives multiple times.
Henry Green (00:18:40):
And what did you name the dog?
David Shama (00:18:42):
Huacho.
Henry Green (00:18:44):
Why Huacho?
David Shama (00:18:46):
That was the town in Peru where my father established himself as a young man of 15 and started to build his mini empire. It was the town of Huacho and for my father's, you know, pleasure, we named the dog Huacho and it was a wonderful name. The dog grew up and did well and I became a German shepherd puff ever since that day.
Henry Green (00:19:25):
So in your house you had, um, these various staff members, your parents, did you have brothers or sisters?
David Shama (00:19:34):
Yes, I had. I had a brother who unfortunately had passed away before I was born a year before. And it was, uh, typhoid fever. I had an older, I had an older sister, 13 years my senior. I was an afterthought when my, when my, when my parents lost my brother, that's when I came to be. And to some degree I was Jesus Christ reincarnated. (laughs)
Henry Green (00:20:10):
Your older sister, what year was she born and what's her name?
David Shama (00:20:13):
He was Regina and she was born in, uh, 45. She [inaudible 00:20:19] 45 to 35. Around 32, I would say.
Henry Green (00:20:23):
And where was she born?
David Shama (00:20:24):
She was born in Lima, Peru.
Henry Green (00:20:27):
So your, I'm just, I'm just trying to go back to date.
David Shama (00:20:32):
She went back to Lima, Peru because that's where my father married my mom and took her to Lima. My mom became pregnant in Lima and gave birth in Lima. Then her father was getting sick and unwell and they were summoned back Egypt
Henry Green (00:20:48):
And, um, a brother or another sister or what was-
David Shama (00:20:52):
Another younger sister after me. About 15, 15 or 16 months younger than I.
Henry Green (00:21:00):
And her name is?
David Shama (00:21:01):
Roxanne.
Henry Green (00:21:02):
Roxanne. And, uh, did you have any other brothers besides-
David Shama (00:21:06):
No.
Henry Green (00:21:06):
... in the past?
David Shama (00:21:08):
No. No, it was mainly my parents, Roxanne and I. That was really because Regina was older than I was and she got married at the age of 19 in Cairo. So she sort of went on her separate way with her husband, also a very well reputed businessman in Cairo. And her story is another story that was horrendous.
Henry Green (00:21:39):
So when you were growing up, um, uh, you grew up in Alexandria or Cairo?
David Shama (00:21:45):
My early years were spent in Cairo but as I became more older, I would say from the age of six and up, I was in Alexandria for the most part. My father's business was in Alexandria. And the only reason we were in Cairo was because of my older sister who was suffering with asthma. And Alexandria was very difficult for her with the humidity. So Cairo was a much drier environment for her.
Henry Green (00:22:15):
And where did you live when you were in Cairo? What area?
David Shama (00:22:19):
Zamalek.
Henry Green (00:22:22):
Zamalek. Did, did, um, what school did you go to when you were in Alexandria?
David Shama (00:22:28):
To the British boys school. It was a British school, an elitist school. Very well reputed. It was on a hill. I remember it stood up on its own. It was marvelous. I remember (laughs) I wanted a bicycle and my father went out and got me a bicycle because I wanted to see if I could ride my bicycle to school. But to show you the state of mind back then, I remember my dad said to me, "We, I got your beautiful bicycle from a friend of mine." And I walk out into the garden and there's that humongous bicycle that there was no way on earth I could sit and pedal it. And I said, "That's for me dad?" And he says, "Oh yes, that's for you." I said, "Well, I can't ride it." He says, "Well, you're not supposed to ride it." Ali, get on the bicycle. And he got some from the bicycle. I sit on the bar, I was allowed to honk the horn but Ali would peddle me to school. (laughs) That's the kind of life and the kind of stories I remember.
Henry Green (00:23:37):
Does, um, in your, in your school, what language would you speak?
David Shama (00:23:41):
English. It was a British school.
Henry Green (00:23:44):
Did you learn Arabic that school also?
David Shama (00:23:46):
Some, some. There was, and then the, the Arabic became compulsory when Nasser came into power. That's when the Arabic, they have to have a certain amount of Arabic being taught. And-
Henry Green (00:23:58):
Yeah.
David Shama (00:23:58):
... to some degree, some, a little bit of influence of Quran, et cetera.
Henry Green (00:24:03):
And w- your friends, the people who attended school were Jewish and Greek and-
David Shama (00:24:09):
They were Jewish, Greeks, uh, Armenians, a lot of Armenians in Egypt. A lot of humongous Armenian community. And they were restauranters et cetera, jewelers, diamond setters and so on. They were also very wealthy. It was French, Brits, a lot of British.
Henry Green (00:24:31):
And the, the, so it was a mix of Greek Orthodox and-
David Shama (00:24:35):
Yes.
Henry Green (00:24:36):
... Catholic and-
David Shama (00:24:37):
Absolutely.
Henry Green (00:24:38):
And did you have, uh, did friends from school come home with you or did you go to their homes?
David Shama (00:24:44):
Yeah. We continuously were at each other's homes and, uh, intermingling. It was a very very open society where everybody just about mingled with everybody. As long as you were within the same social level.
Henry Green (00:25:00):
You, you mentioned French. Where did you get the French from?
David Shama (00:25:04):
It was in an, in Egypt French was the language of the educated upper echelon crowd.
Henry Green (00:25:14):
And so your parents taught you French?
David Shama (00:25:16):
I learned French by virtue of just listening to it everywhere. French was, really French and Arabic were the instrumental languages. English was acquired by going to the British boys school who and learning it as well as Spanish because my parents spoke Spanish. Having lived in my father and my mother spending some time with him Peru. So they did speak Spanish as well. And I picked up Spanish there too.
Henry Green (00:25:46):
So what language would be the main language you spoke at the table?
David Shama (00:25:50):
(laughs) Everything, everything. We would bounce around from one sentence in one language to the other and it was just coming occurrence in any family. We'd be with my grandparents, everybody was speaking something or another and that's why growing up five languages for me was very normal.
Henry Green (00:26:12):
So, um, here you're in a very integrated community you're talking-
David Shama (00:26:17):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Henry Green (00:26:17):
... about, which is secular or was there also religion that played a role? Did you go to a synagogue? Was a synagogue-
David Shama (00:26:26):
We-
Henry Green (00:26:27):
... [inaudible 00:26:27]
David Shama (00:26:27):
... we, we were, we were, my father and my mother's family, they were very observant, very observant. So we followed all the holidays diligently and the high holidays were always held at my grandmother's home. She lived with my mother's older brother and his family. But she was the matriarch that held the family together. And the holidays were given that we all had to be together. But I realized we're also very much intertwined having sailing boats-
PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:27:04]
David Shama (00:27:02):
... having sailing boats, beach houses. We were always together. I can't remember a weekend that I wasn't with all my cousins and my aunts and uncles, somewhere, somehow.
Henry Green (00:27:15):
Did you keep kosher in the house?
David Shama (00:27:17):
No.
Henry Green (00:27:18):
Did, um, did you- you celebrated Passover together?
David Shama (00:27:22):
Yes.
Henry Green (00:27:22):
Can you tell me a bit what your Passover Seder was gonna be like?
David Shama (00:27:28):
Very long. Very- bless you. Very long and very tiresome. Tiresome because my uncles, more so than my father, my mother's brothers, were very much committed to observing the prayers to the end. And sometimes we would be sitting and davening for literally two, three hours before we could eat. And it was hard on a young kid. Most of us. I'd look at all my cousins. We were all salivating.
Henry Green (00:28:07):
Did you get to participate at all-
David Shama (00:28:08):
We did.
Henry Green (00:28:09):
... would they ask you questions?
David Shama (00:28:10):
Very, very much so. We would- we would participate in synagogue. Obviously the men and the women were separate. We would then not sit together. But I remember it was very, very important. I remember continuously being wrapped in my father's prayer shawl with him. And it was a different- it was a very, very tight environment that you felt you belonged together, all of you as a group.
David Shama (00:28:43):
I remember seeing other members of the synagogues and everybody was open and friendly and it ...
Henry Green (00:28:50):
Do you remember the name of the synagogue?
David Shama (00:28:51):
No.
Henry Green (00:28:53):
Did your father go every Saturday to synagogue or-
David Shama (00:28:56):
No, no.
Henry Green (00:28:57):
... just the holidays?
David Shama (00:28:59):
Just the holidays and special events.
Henry Green (00:29:02):
At home were- did they have friends that came over who, uh, were not Jewish for dinner and things like this?
David Shama (00:29:08):
Our house was a revolving door, as a kid I remember that. Every night was a party, literally. Every night the tables were set and I remember the dining rooms and the second dining room tables that would seat, on average, anywhere between 15 to 20 people. They were always set with plenty of food and so on. And people would just come in. Some people I knew that were regular visitors. But that was literally seven days a week. That's why we had such a staff. Because the cooking in the kitchen was nonstop. And the food was plenty. My father was- and mother were very, very open with the home. And we'd have family, friends. And everybody would be mingling together. More often than not I wondered sometimes if I wasn't a visitor myself because, I mean ...
Henry Green (00:30:04):
You mentioned your brother, uh, passed away because of sickness.
David Shama (00:30:09):
Yes.
Henry Green (00:30:09):
Did you have sickness also, uh, in early life?
David Shama (00:30:12):
I did. I did in Cairo, I remember. I got afflicted with TB. And I was quite ill. The doctors were unable to help me and I was getting from worse to worse. And I remember then somebody told us about a rabbi who had passed away. But apparently, the house he lived in, miracles were occurring. The name of the Rabbi was Reb Mosher, Rabbi Moshe. And it was in Cairo in the Jewish quarter of Cairo. [foreign langauge 00:30:56] they used to call it. It was an old house. It was decrepit looking, I remember and very, very eerie to walk into. And my mother decided to take me there. So we went there with my nanny and my mom and I. And it was like going down in the catacombs or something. We walked down. There were stairs all the way down.
David Shama (00:31:25):
And I remember in the bottom of that final basement, there was like a well with water. And it was supposedly pure water, purified, blessed water.
David Shama (00:31:37):
I remember when I would get sick or you'd have something in the family, immediately my mother would summon my nanny to come in and to do her thing. And I remember she'd have a chain with a little metal dish, usually made out of brass and three chains holding it. And they would put coal in it, hot coals, burning red. And then they would take a bead and put the bead on it and pass it over you. And then the bead would explode from the heat. And more often than not, they believed in the evil eye. And it be even like- in a horah, which you call in Yiddish, but in the, uh, Sephardic thinking, we believed in the evil eye as well and, more often than not, one would heal.
David Shama (00:32:32):
And I remember superstitious little things of the sort that would happen frequently to help us heal. Now whether it was the medicines, whether it was us, I don't know. But we managed to get over it.
Henry Green (00:32:48):
Your nanny was a Coptic?
David Shama (00:32:50):
She wa- she was a Muslim.
Henry Green (00:32:51):
A Muslim.
David Shama (00:32:52):
She was a Muslim. But devoted to us to the ultimate. I remember when we were under house arrest, when Nasser came into power, and we had received little cards that we had to pin on our garments with our names and our identity. And we couldn't go out of the house without them. But when she would take me out and dress me like an Arab with a little [inaudible 00:33:28] and so on, and she would walk me on the street and introduce me as her son to get me out of the house. She was incredible.
Henry Green (00:33:38):
Were your parents in involved in any kind of Zionist activities or, or, you know, Israel, um, was being formed in 48-
David Shama (00:33:47):
Yes.
Henry Green (00:33:47):
... and then you were very young already. But after that, um, Israel played more of a role. Do you remember them being involved in any way?
David Shama (00:33:57):
My father was very, very supportive of the State of Israel. And I believe he did a lot of stuff in order to assist, both monetarily and politically. My uncles as well. The whole family was very, very [inaudible 00:34:12] to the State of Israel. And to some degree maybe this had an impact on what happened to us, ultimately.
Henry Green (00:34:24):
Do you remember any, uh, Israelis ever coming to your home?
David Shama (00:34:28):
No.
Henry Green (00:34:28):
Do you remember your father ever mentioning any kind of organizations or meetings that he would attend?
David Shama (00:34:39):
He attended so much stuff. I can't remember. I really can't remember.
Henry Green (00:34:45):
So when you were about seven years old-
David Shama (00:34:47):
Yes.
Henry Green (00:34:47):
... Nasser comes to power.
David Shama (00:34:49):
Yes.
Henry Green (00:34:49):
And how did that change your life?
David Shama (00:34:56):
Everything changed. Schools changed. Uh, the influence of Islam became that much more visible. And there was a certain feeling of discomfort. I remember my father was nervous. But he believed sincerely, at the time, that England and France, America, would not tolerate this kind of, you know, politics, when Nasser came in with his Islamic radical movement, nationalizing properties, sequestrating businesses and assets. And we were both sequestrated and nationalized. It was a very, very difficult time.
David Shama (00:35:50):
Unfortunately, my father made on mistake. He was frustrated one day, very, very frustrated, and I remember that. And he said, "Damn Nasser and his politics." And he said it in Arabic. One of the servants overheard the conversation and clearly reported it to the authorities that my father cursed Nasser.
David Shama (00:36:26):
I didn't- we didn't know anything about what had happened. But later on it became evident. I remember one thing as a young boy standing in my garden behind our wrought iron gates. They were very tall gates to keep intruders out. With my dog. And I remember a fellow wearing a long gabardine coat, typically military, you know, melton coat with a briefcase under his arm, going to our guard, because we did have a guard that walked the peripheral of the property, asking him if he knew a Mr. Schumas Cama. And he didn't seem to be able to pronounce the name.
David Shama (00:37:09):
I felt like saying Shama but I kept my mouth shut. And that's the- and this is, to some degree, a burden I carry for the rest of my life. The guy walked away and left because he couldn't get a clear answer. But I made a big mistake. I didn't tell my father what had occurred as a kid. Went away.
David Shama (00:37:40):
About two, three days later, my father received a call, a telephone call at the house to come down to the precinct that took care of our area, that the captain wanted to see him. My father knew the captain very well because he used to get him sacks of flour and wheat to feed his chickens because he had a chicken farm. So he figured the guy wants something more. My father got dressed up, I remember. Got into the car with the chauffeur, said goodbye to us. I'll see you at lunch or something because he would be home for lunch every day with a siesta and so on. Never came back.
David Shama (00:38:26):
I remember around three o'clock, the chauffeur came back to the house and told my mother my father had disappeared. And there was no sign of him. He went into the precinct, asked for Mr. Shama, and nobody knew that there was even a Mr. Shama. He just disappeared off the face of the earth. We didn't know where he was and what happened. My mother hysterically contacted her brothers who came immediately to the house. It was a time of complete madness. It took, I would say, it had to have taken a good week before we found out what had happened to him.
David Shama (00:39:18):
He was arrested. He was accused of being a spy for the British government and for Israel. He was anti the Nasser government, which the servant, young servant that we had hired, the last one who came on board into our house. And, needless to say, he was put in prison. My mother was a very brave woman, exceptionally brave. She was young. She was a beautiful woman. And sometimes maybe she had more guts than brains in many things that she did. And thank god it worked out well.
David Shama (00:40:09):
But she used to go out every night, alone, in our family car, taken by herself, and go from jail to jail to try to find out where my father was being held. Because they used to move them around continuously so that they couldn't be traced. And she would find the jailers. Our bank accounts were all frozen. So she used to take her jewelry and pop the stones out of all the pieces and have a little pouch. And that's how she'd buy her way from one jail to the next 'til she could locate my father.
David Shama (00:40:51):
I remember one day she told me, "David, tomorrow is the trial of your father. They're going to try him to find out if, in fact, he is guilty of what he's being accused of."
David Shama (00:41:12):
And I said to her, "Mommy, I wanna come with you."
David Shama (00:41:15):
She said to me, "You do- you can't come to the courthouse. I'm going with my brothers. And I'm going with the lawyers."
David Shama (00:41:24):
And I insisted. So she said to me, "Okay." Somehow, I remember that very day before we went to the courthouse, my father was being transported from one of the jails in Alexandria, and somehow, the car with the three soldiers in it, the driver and two soldiers, one on either side of him, stopped on the side street near our home and my mother and I, with our nanny, ran over to that corner to get a glimpse of my father and to see him. And I remember that. He was dressed in a pajama type outfit. His head was shaved. He was badly bruised all over his face. He was in shackles, hands, waist, I remember, feet. And he was barefoot with two officers on either side of him. I remember opening the door of the car and it opened up in the old ways. I don't remember the model of the car. But the door opened backwards and he was in the back seat. I remember hugging him and he had tears in his eyes. And my mother pulled me out and she went and hugged him and then they drove off. And we went back to the house, got into our car and went off to the courthouse.
Henry Green (00:42:59):
What year was this?
David Shama (00:43:03):
That was in 1956. And it was some time ... I was just- I believe it was around September or October of 56.
Henry Green (00:43:14):
So was this before the Suez War or after?
David Shama (00:43:16):
It was during.
Henry Green (00:43:17):
During the Suez War. Your father was a business man. What kind of business man was he?
David Shama (00:43:24):
He was an entrepreneur. He had property. He delved into a lot of things. But the wheat and flour business was his primary focus. And he had a pretty bil- big operation supplying flour to Alexandria, Cairo, Sudan, and certain other regions around us. So he was very knowledgeable.
David Shama (00:43:53):
See, what, what got him into trouble, when first- when he said what he did about Nasser, as a I told you before. But subsequent to that there was another incident that was basically what nailed him. He was really good friends with the British Consulate in Alexandria. And his good friend was a Mr. Casar, who was the Vice Consul General of Alexandria for the British government. While the war was going on and the shelling was happening in Alexandria, Mr. Casar called my father and told him he wanted to have a meeting with him, a private meeting at our home.
David Shama (00:44:41):
He came to the house, I remember, with a typical limousine from the British Embassy with two Union Jacks flapping on the fenders, while the bombs were falling and Alexandria was being shelled by the British and the French and Israel on the other end. He came into the house and he was basically asking my father to give him information that if a siege were to be placed around Egypt, nothing goes in, nothing goes out all throughout, how long could Egypt last with its supply of wheat, which was their staple?
David Shama (00:45:23):
My father was hesitant because he told me all this afterwards. He was hesitant. But Casar assured him that whatever he tells him would be held in confidence and that our family would be protected. My father gave the info. And that is potentially also something that that servant overheard. That be- reported him along with the other matters. And that was the part where England was not there for us. When things got really bad, they called back their diplomats and shut the embassy. France did likewise. So we had no protection.
David Shama (00:46:11):
And here is this guy who cooperated with the Brits, who gave them what they needed, sitting in jail being tortured.
Henry Green (00:46:25):
Were your uncles also picked up or no?
David Shama (00:46:27):
No. They were Spaniards.
Henry Green (00:46:30):
Your, your father had what kind of passport?
David Shama (00:46:33):
British.
Henry Green (00:46:34):
And how did he have a British passport?
David Shama (00:46:36):
That is something that's always fascinated me. I know that, as a young man before coming to Egypt and being in the wheat and flour business, he was in textiles. He spent a lot of man- many years in Manchester in England, because it was a textile center as well. And I believe somehow, somewhere, a British passport was made available to him. And he took it. It was fashionable.
Henry Green (00:47:03):
And your mother's passport was-
David Shama (00:47:05):
It was Spanish when he married her, but she became British when he did. And my sisters, myself, when we were all born, we were all registered at the British Consulate and we are all classified as British by birth.
Henry Green (00:47:22):
So you all were foreigners.
David Shama (00:47:24):
As far as the Egyptian government was concerned, yes.
Henry Green (00:47:29):
We're rolling. So you were- you went with your, uh, mother and your uncles to the courthouse-
David Shama (00:47:36):
Yes.
Henry Green (00:47:37):
... [crosstalk 00:47:37].
David Shama (00:47:37):
Yes. Went to the courthouse. Big building. At least it appeared big to me. I remember walking into the big courtroom. We sat in the pews. And the judge came out and he was announced in Arabic. I remember. Couldn't make his name out. He walked up to the top and sat down at his desk. And a couple of cases were called ahead of my father's. And he passed judgment on them as to what would happen. And then my father's case was called up. And the charges that were levied against him was treason. And the prosecutor was seeking the death penalty for him.
David Shama (00:48:36):
My father was brought out with two soldiers, a policeman, actually. They were bla- wearing black uniforms. He was in the sa- in the shackles I had seen him in the car a couple of hours beforehand, barefoot. He was ... It was- it was horrible to see a man like him, who was ... When he'd walk into a room he had such an incredible presence to have been basically destroyed like that. I mean, he was ... It was horrible.
David Shama (00:49:18):
He was brought in front of the judge and the judge read- had his assistant read the charges to my father. And they asked him to make his plea. And he pleaded innocent. When he pleaded innocent, there was a lot of commotion within the courtroom. There was five or six officers sitting on the front row in the pews, side by side. These guys got up, walked around my father, and two of them slipped their arms underneath him armpits and literally dragged him out of the courtroom into a room at the end. At the back of the courtroom there was a room with a door and they took him in there, shut the door, and what happened afterwards was horrible.
David Shama (00:50:24):
The pounding, the yelling, the noises. It was- must have lasted ... Sounded to me, I remember, that it was forever, maybe 15, 20 minutes. The door to the room was opened. They came back out. My father could not stand. He was badly, badly beaten. They dragged him in front of the judge again. He couldn't even stand. He was gonna fall. They were holding him up. And the judge asked him again to plead and he pleaded guilty.
David Shama (00:51:10):
At that point, the judge passed judgment on him to be killed by a firing squad. And it was about a week or 10 days away from the court date that we were in. It was chaotic in the- in the courthouse. My mother was screaming and she fell on the floor. I remember I was holding on to her and crying. My uncles were going nuts with the lawyer and asking the lawyer to intervene and all this. To no avail. My father was literally dragged out of the courtroom. We didn't see him again.
David Shama (00:51:57):
We went home. My uncles were around my mother, trying to comfort her. What to do? They left us alone that night. Most of our servants had pretty well gone. My nanny was still with us. Our chauffer was still with us. He was a Copt. And he was a good man. And we had our dog. Many a night break ins were attempted in our house. In one case, I remember, we heard screaming in the garden. And our dog had caught our gardener trying to break into the house. And I'll never forget it. The dog was latched on to his upper throat. And the gardener was hitting him with anything he could find to get him to break his hold and the dog would not. I remember running down in the dark in my pajamas. And I put my arms around the dog's neck and I managed to get him off.
David Shama (00:53:13):
They came back to us. They wanted to take the dog away. And I said, "No." And it became a confrontation and the chauffeur got involved because he lived on residence with us. And he blocked it. And he got into an actual physical fight with somebody who was trying to take the dog away. But the dog stayed on with us. And he was an incredible deterrent.
David Shama (00:53:37):
One night after the judgment, so I remember, door knocked. And our nanny opened the door and three drunken officers walked into the house. And they were sloshed with bottles. They asked to see my mother. My mother came out. And we had in the vestibule couches like this, big couches. And the front door was like-
PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:54:04]
David Shama (00:54:03):
Coaches like this, big couches. And the front door was there. And two of them flopped on the couch and the third one grabbed my mother by the arm, I remember, and pulled her on the couch. And he started to manhandle her. I was hiding in a corner. When I saw that I don't know what got into me, but I charged him. I was, lost it completely. And he stood up and kicked me so hard that he literally sent me into the wall on the opposite side of the room. My mother screamed, came running over to me. I was knocked out, I believe, but when I came too I guess I broke the atmosphere or whatever. They got up and they left. My mother was crying. Her dress was torn. But there was some bad incidents that I remember after.
David Shama (00:55:09):
The one thing I remember is, on November the 24th, 1956, I woke up in the morning, it was my birthday. I was turning 12. And my mom said to me, "What do you want for your birthday?" And I said, "I, just my father. How can we get him?" She said to me, "Unfortunately, it's over." And we sat and we cried together.
David Shama (00:55:43):
Around 11, 12:00 that morning we were confined to our home. We could only leave the home between, I believe, 9:00 and 10:00 to go out and get groceries if we needed something. And we had to wear our yellow badges. But besides that we were under house arrest.
David Shama (00:56:05):
The doorbell knocks. No, it was a knock on the door. And I was in the big vestibule with these big couches and we had a big fireplace. And the nanny opened the door and there was one of these guard-type guys, like, the guy who was looking for my dad that time. And he said, "Is this the Shama home?" And she said, "Yes." He says, "I have somebody here for her, for you."
David Shama (00:56:37):
And I remember peeking and I could see, like a tent behind him. There was a blanket over the individual covered from head to toe. And he walks, that thing that was under that tent, and when he came into the house, shut the door and they removed the blanket. It was my father. I was, like, I remember I get goosebumps to this day when I think about that. It was my birthday and here was my father. How? M, m, the maid screamed to call my mother to come immediately to the front.
David Shama (00:57:25):
And my mother had worked her magic going out to the jailers and managed to get him out. They didn't know he was out. And the guy who brought him to the house said to us, "You’ve got 24 hours at the most to get out of the country because they will find out he's missing and they will come here." I don't know how they had covered it up. How they had fixed it. But my father was, like, he was a mess. He was so an absolute mess. And I'm telling you as big and as big and as strong as I think I am, he dwarfed me in every aspect when he was well. I was looking at I remember at that man, who was literally shaking like a leaf. He said, and the guy sai, my mother said to this guy, "What would they do to us if they find out?" He says, "They will put you all, you and the children, they will kill him. And put you on the border of the Salloum. Have you ever head of the border of the Salloum? It's a desert area. And they would you go there and you would go off on your own and try to find your way out of it, which is basically a death sentence.
David Shama (00:58:52):
The chauffeur came up from the garage. And everybody said together, my mother said to him, "Get into the car and go get my brothers." She didn't want to use the phone. Her brothers could not come. They were afraid that they would be caught into this. It's funny how people start to become, you see whose who. Chauffeur came back and we had to leave. He had an idea. He says, "I'm going to go to the beach to this areas where they do, the fisherman hangout with their boats. He says "I know a cod fisherman whose a very good man and his son, and maybe he can help us."
David Shama (00:59:47):
So, that night, that very same night on November the 24th, around midnight, we were in our car. My after father was lying on the floor in the back, covered with blankets. My sister and I were huddled. I was, remember she was holding her doll and I had my teddy bear with me. My mother was in the front with the chauffer and the maid squeezed together all three of them on the bench. It was a big [Citroen 01:00:16] Sedan. The big one with, with the big headlights. And they drove down to the beach area near. I don't know, but he managed to get the car out of the sand. There was a fishing boat, small fishing boat pulled on the sand. And there was this old fisherman wearing a white galabeya and a white turban on his head with a young boy, possibly in his mid teens. They got us onto the boat. And covered us with their pollens nets. And I remember my, as we were covered, my mother was something else, she pushed off the tarp on and off of her and she had the keys to the car and she yelled to the chauffeur, "[Valykrie 01:01:10]!" and she threw the keys to him and he caught them. She said, to him, "It's yours." You know, small things like this stick with you. You remember them. Like, she had a lo, she could do much with it. You know, "It's yours." (laughing) But in any event, she got back under and we were covered and we sailed out. We sailed out that night.
David Shama (01:01:33):
We were covered. We couldn't come out because the area was heavily patrolled. And he was trying to get out of Egyptian territorial waters to see if somehow we could latch onto something or someone. Fortunately, there was a Greek steamliner sailing towards the Port of Marseille. And the fisherman flagged him while we were out of the territorial waters. But we were still [00:08:05 crosstalk] but you got to see this. We were about a day and a half covered with [tarpaliz 01:02:09]. Forgive me, but we had peed ourselves. We had done everything where we were. So we stank.
David Shama (01:02:19):
The fisherman flags this steamliner and it stops. And he climbs up. He tells the captain, "I've got passengers. I've got four passengers for you." The captain wants money. We didn't have money. So, they're arguing back and forth with the fisherman. And I remember the captain comes up to the end of the ship and looks down and my mother is there, my father. And in a Greek asilla, accent, he says, "Mrs. Shama, I want money. Would you have money?" She says to him, "I have more than money. But you've got to trust me." And we didn't know my mother had done that. And I'll tell you about that part. "Just let us on board, please." And he said to her, "And if you don't have the money and can't pay me what happens then?" She said to him, in front of us, she says, "I'll sleep with you." And she was an attractive lady. I showed her picture. So, they let us on board.
David Shama (01:03:41):
My mother before everything was going my father was scared and he said to her, "Don't do anything foolish." But she was a daring woman. And whatever stones that she had left diamonds, rubies from jewels and she had an awful lot of jewelry. She took bread and took the dough off the bread and worked it like a paste. And inserted stones into it and made like a ball. And swallowed God knows how many stones, paid our voyage to Marseille.
Henry Green (01:04:29):
So, you're on the boat and you end up where, in Marseille?
David Shama (01:04:32):
We end up in Marseille. My mother was able to pass the gems she had swallowed. Satisfied the captain with the cost of the trip for us. And we ended up in Marseille, literally with the clothes on our back and nothing else. We had washed and bathed and cleaned up as much as we could. But it was hard to get rid of the stench. I remember it was horrible.
David Shama (01:05:02):
When we arrived in Marseille the Hyatt was brought to us. And they took us, I remember, to a warehouse that was full of clothes, racks and racks of clothes. And they told us to pick what we needed and what we wanted. I remember my sister and I, kids in a candy store. Ran in and grabbed as much as we could of whatever appealed to us. So, did my mom. My father started to cry. It was very difficult on him to see this, that everything had ended up that now we were on charity.
David Shama (01:05:56):
So, we got clothed. They took us into a hotel. Put us all in one room together. And I remember we slept for literally two days, slept. It was endless sleep. In the meantime, the Hyatt contacted the British Foreign Office. And the British Foreign Office either cabled or sent or did something, airline tickets for the four of us for London. But before going on the plane I wanted to see the Eiffel Tower. And my parents went, Oh, the grief that they were going through and everything we had experienced, took me to the Teiffel Hour, to the Eiffel Tower and I went to the top. At least, something good happened. Then, we went out to the airport and flew to London.
David Shama (01:07:05):
I remember getting off the plane in London at Heathrow. Was it Heathrow? I'm not sure if it was Heathrow, we landed. We were met by cameras to no end. We were on the front page of the newspapers. And we were immediately escorted to a hotel called the Alexandra Hotel in South Kensington near Gloucester Road Station. I don't think this hotel is still standing. I think they demolished it now. And It was a hotel that was housing refugees from Egypt with British passports.
David Shama (01:07:57):
My father and mother checked into the hotel. We had a big room for the four of us. And they had to go down to the foreign office in order to meet with the officials and to give them a rendition of the events.
David Shama (01:08:16):
Fortunately, Mr. [Cacere 01:08:19] was in England too at that time, who was the gentleman with the British Embassy in Alexandria. To some degree was the catalyst to this whole se, sequence of events. He was there, and he vouched for my father, recounting what had happened. And then it became a matter of bureaucracy. And I remember my parents telling me, because I was always, although young, very inquisitive as to what he was happening to us.
David Shama (01:09:06):
I remember my parents telling me that Bri, British bureaucracy was second to none. And the forms and the questionnaires, and the questionnaires and the forms, my parents were up at all hours of the night filing them out. And it became basically like a gerbil on one of these wheels in a cage running around and getting nowhere sooner.
David Shama (01:09:40):
My parents were not happy in England. It wasn't their environment. My father had always lived his life in third world countries at the time and wanted to leave England and made application to the foreign office to assist us to leave. He wanted to go back to Peru. He had connections. He knew people. And he felt in that kind of environment he could excel, as he has always done.
David Shama (01:10:20):
Somehow he managed to get from the British Government an Ex Gratia Loan, which was a loan from the government to us. Payable pending settlement of the estate left in Egypt and confis, confiscated by the [national 01:10:43] government, which was never resolved, by the way, to this day. The Ex Gratia loan at the time, I remember it. We translated in to dollars. I'll never forget that number, was $60,000. Fair amount of money in the mid '50s. It bought us our tickets. And we went off to Lima. It was a good life in Lima.
Henry Green (01:11:15):
What year, how long did you stay in London?
David Shama (01:11:18):
In London we were just about a year, a year and change maybe.
Henry Green (01:11:22):
Did you go to school? Did you-
David Shama (01:11:23):
Yes.
Henry Green (01:11:24):
What school did you-
David Shama (01:11:25):
Public school. I can't remember the name of the school.
Henry Green (01:11:28):
Do you remember what area you lived in?
David Shama (01:11:31):
We lived in South Kensington, beautiful area. I remember we had Hyde Park not too far away from us, walking distance. I was quite sick in England. I became quite ill. All of these events, my sister was very, very young. And she was never really into it. She cried. She feared, she sh, you know, she was scared. I knew too much maybe for my age. And I carried a humongous burden for a young kid my age. It had affected me emotionally. And affected me to the point, I remember, and I lost control of my bowels. I used to be walking and I'd lose control of my bowels while I was walking and soiled myself. My mother took me to various doctors to see if they could help me. And they thought I was being abused by parents.
David Shama (01:12:42):
And the equivalent of childcare here or something of the sort, they sent officers to our house, who unilaterally decided on removing me from my parents. Which was, I mean, be victimized by our rescuers and they took me away. I remember my mother screaming in the street and my father totally astounded.
David Shama (01:13:14):
They took me away and they took me to some boarding school or something. I remember the room full of beds and I spent a few nights there, which was horrible. Because after all that I'd been through and then to be removed from my parents who were my, m, the only thing I had in my life at that point that I could count on and trust and be with. And it wa, that was a battle in itself to get me back to them. And that's when we decided to go to Peru and my father spoke with the foreign office and several people there intervened and we cam, we went off to Lima.
Henry Green (01:14:03):
Did, um, your parents, um, have a, some friends or met some people who were also Sephardi refugees from Egypt?
David Shama (01:14:13):
In London?
Henry Green (01:14:13):
In London, yes.
David Shama (01:14:14):
Oh, yes. That hotel was packed. This Alexandra Hotel was packed.
Henry Green (01:14:20):
With Jewish and non Jewish?
David Shama (01:14:21):
All of them. One family, one family they were Maltese, obviously Catholics. But I would say 99.9% were all Jewish families that were displaced from Egypt.
Henry Green (01:14:39):
And their stories were similar to your stories? Did you share stories or?
David Shama (01:14:44):
We, we shared alot of stories. But nobody had gone through, you know, they were expelled. They got on a ship. They got on a plane and left. But nobody had a sor, a story that was as intricate and as unusual as ours. Our escape, our life, what we left behind, how you, we left our house, like, as if you go to a movie. You take nothing with you, the clothes on your back.
Henry Green (01:15:17):
Did, did, i, in convers, there must have been children too then, your age more or less?
David Shama (01:15:22):
Oh, yes. Lots of them.
Henry Green (01:15:24):
Did you, uh, did the conversation, how did you identify yourself? Do you identify yourself as, as victims, as, uh, refugees, as displaced? How did you-
David Shama (01:15:35):
We became, we, we became victims. I became a victim. I became a victim. I couldn't function in school. I, I was scared, easily scared of everything and anything. Again, I developed health issues that hampered me even more. It was very, very difficult. I would sit with other children, but they were kids. And they played like kids. And I wasn't playing like a kid. I was much more in tune to what was happening to us.
David Shama (01:16:19):
Seeing my father, we had little or no money. Because at that point, the British Government hadn't given us much. But I remember buying my parents buying a can of ravioli, which I had never seen in Egypt. And they'd open it up and give my sister half the can and give me half the can. And they would drink water in order to bloat themselves into their stomachs and go to sleep.
David Shama (01:16:47):
I mean, all these things for me to take in and to be able to absorb them and reconcile them in my mind was very difficult. I couldn't understand it. I couldn't understand it. I was confused. I, it was a very, very difficult time.
Henry Green (01:17:09):
Did-
David Shama (01:17:09):
I, I was worse off, I wa, I think to be stronger while we were still in Egypt. I became an absolute mess when we hit London.
Henry Green (01:17:20):
Do you remember any conversation with your parents or, or the people in the hotel about, "Well, we could stay here. We could go to other places or, and we could also go to Israel." Was Israel part of the discussion ever?
David Shama (01:17:36):
Yes, very much so. Israel was part of the discussion, along with the United States, along with Australia, and along with Canada. Um, Israel, my father looked at me and he said to me, "We go to Israel they're gonna take you away and put you in the Army. And the chances are you'll get killed one day." So, Israel became out of the question.
David Shama (01:18:08):
We made application to Canada. And it was, it was tough. The United States there was no quota for Egyptian ports at the time. So, Australia approved us. And we were going to go to Australia with destination to Sydney.
David Shama (01:18:29):
But somehow Canada came in virtually at the last moment and said yes. And my mom looked at us and said, "Australia is in the other part of the world. At least in Canada we're close enough to the United States. I would be a better, safer haven for us and that's how we ended up in Montreal.
Henry Green (01:18:56):
So, you never went to Lima then?
David Shama (01:18:58):
No, we went to Lima and from Lima-
Henry Green (01:19:00):
How long did you spend in Lima then?
David Shama (01:19:07):
I'd say five years.
Henry Green (01:19:09):
So, this conversation in the ho, Alexandra Hotel involved going to Canada, going to different places, Israel.
David Shama (01:19:15):
Yeah.
David Shama (01:19:16):
We actually went to Lima first. My father wanted to give a shot to South America. He thought he could recoup where he left off in South America.
Henry Green (01:19:26):
And the, in, in the hotel then-
David Shama (01:19:29):
I'm sorry. I, I k, I floated away.
Henry Green (01:19:32):
The, the in, in the conversation in the, in London.
David Shama (01:19:36):
Yeah.
Henry Green (01:19:36):
Um, were you, and you were with these other people and they thought Israel, they thought whatever, whatever. That's where you applied for Canada?
David Shama (01:19:44):
No. We applied for Canada in Peru. I, I messed up. I messed up.
Henry Green (01:19:47):
In Peru?
David Shama (01:19:48):
My, My father was totally and totally committed to go to Peru. We were going to Peru come hell or high water.
Henry Green (01:19:54):
So, so, is in, in Lima where you made [crosstalk 01:19:56].
David Shama (01:19:55):
Where we made that decision and the reason being, the situation in Peru became very unstable after five years, uh, politically. And my parents became scared. The other part of it also is, certain schools that I wanted to apply to, with my parents in Lima, were closed to Jews.
David Shama (01:20:23):
So, while in Peru we lived as non Jews, Anglicans. I used to go to church. I was an altar boy. And it just got to the point where one day, the minister from our church came to see us at home and asked my father if he could take me under his wing and prep me into becoming a minister myself. And that's when my father said, "We're out of here."
Henry Green (01:20:57):
So, so you felt anti-Semitism in, in-
David Shama (01:21:00):
It was very elevated. After the five years in Peru it became-
PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [01:21:04]
Henry Green (01:21:03):
And-
David Shama (01:21:03):
It was very [inaudible 01:21:01] five years in Peru and became very tough.
Henry Green (01:21:05):
And you were in Peru, then, from-
David Shama (01:21:08):
From 1958, '57- '57 through to '62, something like that.
Henry Green (01:21:16):
And was the antisemitism in, in Peru different than the antisemitism in Egypt?
David Shama (01:21:24):
It was, in its own way it was possibly even uglier. To be classed as a judío, as they used to call us, judío [inaudible 01:21:36] and stuff like this. Dumb Jew. It was not pleasant. But I didn't live as a Jew. And the sad part about it is, because I was living as a non-Jew, yes, I became a bully myself towards Jews. Sad. In fact, terrible.
Henry Green (01:22:05):
So in 1962, you, um, your father made the decision to come to Montreal.
David Shama (01:22:12):
Yes.
Henry Green (01:22:12):
And, um, you had said that, um, uh, you had, uh, your father had applied to various places, Australia, Canada, Israel wasn't really a consideration.
David Shama (01:22:22):
No.
Henry Green (01:22:23):
And couldn't get into the States, and so Canada popped out at the end, and you come and you're now, um, uh, 17 years old.
David Shama (01:22:32):
17, 18, yes.
Henry Green (01:22:34):
So tell me about coming to Montreal.
David Shama (01:22:38):
Scary. [inaudible 01:22:40]. Get off the plane in Montreal. Seeing so much snow, I mean, the closest I've ever come to s- ice or snow was the freezer in our fridge. And suddenly we get off the plane and we have no boots, we have no appropriate clothing. It was truly, my father suffered a heart attack at the airport. Upon our arrival. And so it was quite traumatic. But nonetheless we managed to get into the Jewish general in Montreal, and they assisted him, and we went into a hotel until we found an apartment. Montreal was a rude awakening in many ways. We had no family, per se. We had distant families that we'd heard of, but we didn't have a family where we could go to and knock on the door and say, "Hi, we're here." So it really was the three of us while my dad was hospitalized. Egypt had done a number on him, he wasn't the same man anymore. We were in Montreal for about eight months. Maybe, no. We arrived in February, yep. About eight, nine months. Then my father died as a result of complications from a surgery that he had to undergo on his bladder. Then he passed on. So it was basically my mother, my sister and I. Just to regress to South America for a few moments, while in South America I went to school. And I was able in South America, different than in Canada, to do my science programs together. My goal when arriving in Montreal was to go to [inaudible 01:24:51] and do my studies in veterinary medicine. And I had applied and I was accepted.
David Shama (01:24:58):
But then my father passed on away, and I had a mother and a young sister and a typical state of mind of the Middle Eastern Jew. I had to step up to the plate. I couldn't leave them. So I became head of the family, so as to speak. And my whole life changed as to my direction of what I wanted to do. I became a businessman. I was introduced to several people within the community, and the first gentleman I met was a, was a southerner from Georgia. And he owned one of the largest mills in Montreal, spinning yarn.
David Shama (01:25:51):
And I remember a gentleman introduced me to him and said to me, "He's a big man, David. He can open up doors for you." I was a big guy. And this guy was quite tall, very sophisticated-looking man. Possibly mid to late 50s. And he introduces me to him and he says, "This is Bill Sears. David Sharma." And he puts out his hand to shake my hand. I was so nervous that I grabbed his hand and I shook it so tight that it thought I was gonna break it. And the guy went, "Ouch," and pulled it out.
David Shama (01:26:40):
He looked at me, "Is that how you shake hands with people? You have such a strong grip." I said, "Yes." He says to me, "Anybody who can shake hands like you I want on my team." And he took me on, and he sent me to school. To textile school in Montreal, in [inaudible 01:27:06]. I started off being a salesman. I ultimately ended up being senior vice president of the company. He was best man at my wedding. And that's how I got entrenched into textiles.
David Shama (01:27:21):
From there, from spinning yarn, I got into weaving. And, uh, I started manufacturing because it appealed to me and I had a good designing mind. And I broke off on my own. And was quite successful for many years. Until the imports started to happen. And I was still fully committed to being a domestic manufacturer. I did not want to import. I had a plant in Montreal, I had a plant in Toronto, and between both plants I was employing [inaudible 01:27:57] about 300 people. There was no way that these ladies could be channeled into the high tech industry. And I was committed, I always looked at them and said, "They earn in Canada, they spend in Canada, I go to China, the money stays in China, and it's a one way street."
David Shama (01:28:16):
And I completely fought off importing. And I did it for quite a while. And I worked very closely with Walmart. On one of my trips to the States, I met Sam before he died. We were in a parking lot and I was selling children's outerwear. So for me to travel and make a presentation of a line of outerwear to Walmart, I had something to that, you know, 16 suitcases with me. (laughs) You know, because it's all with Poly-Fil in it.
David Shama (01:28:47):
And I remember this gentleman comes out of a pickup truck wearing a tweed jacket and jeans and Western boots and a Western straw hat. It was Sam Walter. I didn't know it. I looked at him and I said, "Could you help me?" He said, "Sure." (laughs) Pulls the stuff in with me. And I figured it's one of the guys who works or cleans or does something. And he pulls up in front of the desk with all the bags helping me, and the girl behind the desk says, "Mr. Walter, there's a message for you." (laughs) I almost passed out. (laughs)
David Shama (01:29:20):
But he was an incredible man. He called me into his office, and we talked for a long time. Introduced me to the buyer. He literally told the buyer to buy from me. And then he told me he was gonna open up in Canada, it was a matter of time. They were looking at the Canadian market. And he said to me, "I'm gonna do something for you." I said, "What?" He calls in his secretary and dictates a letter to her, and he says, "You hold onto this letter." Introducing me to the Canadian market DMM, the Digital Merchandise Manager, who's gonna be doing the buying of apparel. And he says, "You give him that letter from me."
David Shama (01:30:03):
When they came into Canada, opening order that I got from Walmart was two and a half million dollars. Because of that letter from Sam. And he had already died.
Henry Green (01:30:20):
In, um, Montreal, uh, did you marry?
David Shama (01:30:24):
I married there. I met this lovely young woman who was my neighbor, by accident. I was walking my German Shepherd because I've always had Shepherds, every went there after. And it was a nice little house in the town of Montreal. With a little dirty poodle in the front. And always chained, tethered to the front of the house, was her dog. (laughs) Pooing on the walkway, I remember. But somebody, a neighbor of hers whom I had met, who was also from Egypt, told me there's a young lady in that house and I should meet her. He said to me, "David, you meet her, and you'll strike gold." I said, "What do you mean strike gold?" He says to me, "Her father's a diamond dealer. Very wealthy family. I'll arrange it for you." And we met on a blind date. And we were married within a year.
Henry Green (01:31:24):
What year was that?
David Shama (01:31:27):
In 1968.
Henry Green (01:31:29):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Do you remember what synagogue you were married in?
David Shama (01:31:31):
Yes, the, (laughs), on Lucerne Boulevard in Montreal, at the, at, at something. Shit. I don't know, I didn't-
Henry Green (01:31:43):
Was, was she Sephardi or Ashkenazi?
David Shama (01:31:46):
Ashkenazi, and that's when I went to my mom and I said, "I'm marrying." And she said, there was, have you ever heard of the [inaudible 01:31:53] family in Montreal? They had a slew of girls, and at the time, in the 60s, there was a price tag on each one of them. Dowries. (laughs) Very Egyptian, by the way, very Middle Eastern. And the dowries were a hundred thousand dollars a head. And my mother was pushing hard for me to marry one of them that I had met, but the unfortunate part is, she had hair all over her body and (laughs) it was a turn off.
Henry Green (01:32:20):
(laughs)
David Shama (01:32:23):
So when I came up and I said, "I'm marrying Marilyn," and my mother found out that she was not of Sephardic origin, it was very difficult. I remember, (laughs) and the, the, the shock of cultures. I arranged for my mother to meet with her parents, and that was incredible. My mother walks in with her nose up in the air, and Marilyn's parents, her mother, born in Belgium, with her nose up even higher in the air.
David Shama (01:32:58):
And, (laughs) my mother looks at her father, he's sitting on a chair with a big cigar in his mouth that he chewed on all the time. And she says to him, "And how much is the dowry for your daughter?" (laughs) He said to her, he says to her, "Is my daughter a cripple?" She says, (laughs) she says, "But it's customary." He says, "In Egypt it is. Not here." (laughs)
David Shama (01:33:23):
So there was a bit of a culture shock there, where it was instant hate between the two. But I loved Marilyn, and she loved me. And we saw it through, and we got married. And 46 years later, we're here.
Henry Green (01:33:39):
Do you have children?
David Shama (01:33:40):
Three.
Henry Green (01:33:41):
Their names, please, and year?
David Shama (01:33:42):
Derek, who's 42, Brett, who's 38, and Audrey, who's 32.
Henry Green (01:33:50):
And are they married?
David Shama (01:33:52):
All three are married happily children. And wonderful, wonderful kids, excellent values, my wife is an incredible mother and wife.
Henry Green (01:34:01):
Did, um, what kind of cooking did, uh, your wife Marilyn do?
David Shama (01:34:07):
Like her mother, nothing.
Henry Green (01:34:08):
(laughs)
David Shama (01:34:08):
(laughs)
Henry Green (01:34:10):
So you had no--
David Shama (01:34:11):
Restaurants.
Henry Green (01:34:12):
So no Sephardic cooking anymore.
David Shama (01:34:13):
I do it.
Henry Green (01:34:14):
You do Sephardic cooking?
David Shama (01:34:15):
I am an excellent cook. I am a chef, beyond a cook. I can make meals to [inaudible 01:34:23] a horse.
Henry Green (01:34:24):
And how did you learn that?
David Shama (01:34:25):
From my parents, from Egypt. I, I have a, I've always had an artistic flair. I'm a painter. I paint, I sketch. I decorate homes. I, I enjoy it.
Henry Green (01:34:40):
Did, um, in those years of living in Montreal, uh, um, in '62, um, were you involved in the Jewish community all- at all, where your-
David Shama (01:34:52):
Yes.
Henry Green (01:34:52):
... kids involved?
David Shama (01:34:53):
Oh, absolutely. My children went to, well, we moved to Toronto. Uh, my daughter was, was the last one born, when we moved to T.O., she was all of six months. So it was really the boys at the, my eldest at the time was eleven, and his brother was eight, so I mean it's, and we were involved with Jewish environment, Jewish schools, Jewish camps, et cetera, that the kids attended. But-
Henry Green (01:35:21):
What kind of, do you remember the names of the Jewish schools or Jewish camps at all?
David Shama (01:35:26):
No. My memory fails me. My memory fails me. Getting old is not fun when you forget things. Uh-
Henry Green (01:35:33):
Involved with the Sephardic community at all in Montreal?
David Shama (01:35:37):
[crosstalk 01:35:37] In the- in, in Montreal, yes, very much so. Very much so. The, at the, uh,, Spanish Portuguese Synagogue under the guidance of Rabbi Frank, I remember him. Do you know him?
Henry Green (01:35:47):
I, I knew the name, yeah.
David Shama (01:35:48):
Yeah. He was phenomenal. Really was.
Henry Green (01:35:51):
Did, did um, there was lots of, in the 70s, uh, tension between Ashkenazi Sephardi community. Especially, uh, the, the, the Sephardi went through, uh, the Ashkenazi wanted a Sephardi. They took, they'd take the Sephardi and Ashkenize them through their schools and English.
David Shama (01:36:09):
What, what a- what actually occurred is, the problem was never with the Egyptian Jews, the Egyptian Sephardi. The rest of the Egyptian Sephardi, such as myself, we assimilated to the Ashkenazi way of life in many ways. With the exception of certain holidays, we will eat rice, whereas we still have an argument, you don't. But on, on, for the most part, we've become assimilated. My kids, although they do consider themselves Sephardi because it passes on through the father, we're a lot more Ashkenazi today than we are Sephardic in many ways.
Henry Green (01:36:47):
Did your boys have bar mitzvahs?
David Shama (01:36:49):
Oh, yes. But the Moroccan Sephardi was really problem. They were the ones who wanted to stay Moroccan and through their intermarriages or whatever, whereas the Egyptians were very, very happy to change and swap. I mean, you have, upon occasion you'd see individuals like my late mother, who was very committed to being a Sephardi and everything was perfect when you were a Sephardi, but my sister, myself, my, my, my children, my nephews and nieces, we're all for the most part Ashkenazi, I would say.
Henry Green (01:37:29):
Why did you move from Montreal to Toronto?
David Shama (01:37:35):
It was during the Quebec issues of, uh, separation. And there was one speech where René Lévesque got on the stage and, uh, basically isolated the Jewish community. And welcomed the Jewish community within the [inaudible 01:37:53] environment. And I felt the moment that the Jews were isolated as a group was dangerous. And I decided that it's maybe high time that we leave. And a lot of friends, family members, disagreed with me. My mother was devastated. But I felt it was the right thing to do, and looking back, I was right.
Henry Green (01:38:21):
And what year was that?
David Shama (01:38:23):
In 1980.
Henry Green (01:38:25):
How would you compare, um, your experience in Lima when you, uh, pretended to be Christian and, and then have to leave, and, and now in France- in, in France, in Quebec, where you had to leave again.
David Shama (01:38:41):
Yeah. Well, in Lima we left because of political issues. Our money had devaluated terribly, my father had converted much of the money into soles, and the soles took a horrible dive. Consequently, a lot of his money. He had become a builder in Peru, and he had also got into the textile industry and set up a big weaving and knitting mill producing towels and bed sheeting and so on. It was doing quite well.
David Shama (01:39:11):
But I think the catalyst that drove us out of, uh, or made him make his decision to leave Peru, was really to see my sister and I becoming so assimilated within the Peruvian Catholic environment. He felt that we would lose our culture and who we are, and our identity. And that's why we decided, he decided to move to Canada.
Henry Green (01:39:44):
And your decision after Lévesque is-
David Shama (01:39:47):
Very much along the same lines. Very much along the same lines. I had been through issues as a young boy. We were in Montreal during the FLQ crisis when the bombs were being set off in mailboxes. And I remember walking my kids to school, and every time we walked by a mailbox, we'd have to cross the street. And we were living in the town of Montreal, which was a highly [inaudible 01:40:13] area.
David Shama (01:40:14):
So I think all of these things together, and seeing Lévesque and the politics of it all, although I'm fluent in French and I fit within the French community in Montreal, my wife, born in Montreal, is not. She is an Anglo. And my kids, my fault to some degree, never became bilingual. So it became a situation where we had to make a decision, and came to Toronto on a weekend and bought a house.
Henry Green (01:40:49):
And in Toronto, you've now been here 30 years.
David Shama (01:40:52):
Yeah.
Henry Green (01:40:53):
Is there, do you have a, um, a, um, a community that are Egyptians or Sephardim that left?
David Shama (01:41:02):
No. No, my community and my closest friends are all Ashkenazi, and I am very much involved within the Ashkenazi community.
Henry Green (01:41:11):
What role did Israel play?
David Shama (01:41:16):
To me? A major role.
Henry Green (01:41:17):
How?
David Shama (01:41:21):
I support Israel in many ways. Financially as well as morally. I believe very much in the state of Israel and what it stands for. They're not perfect, but they're a lot better than, than a lot of what's around them. And I think Israel is an important factor in this world, and to Jews as a whole.
Henry Green (01:41:48):
How would you describe yourself in terms of your identity?
David Shama (01:41:54):
Canadian. Very much a Canadian. Very pro-Canada. And a Jew who's been marked by circumstances and wars, et cetera. But a strong Jew, and a believer in doing what's right. Charitable.
Henry Green (01:42:23):
Do you, uh, consider yourself a refugee or a migrant?
David Shama (01:42:30):
I consider myself a Canadian. Period. I am not a migrant, and I'm not a refugee. Refugee is a defeated attitude. I am a Canadian, and I'm here by choice.
Henry Green (01:42:47):
Where do you consider home?
David Shama (01:42:49):
Toronto.
Henry Green (01:42:51):
What identity do you want to pass on to your children?
David Shama (01:42:53):
To be who they are. Strong, solid citizens. Hard workers. Committed family people. Responsible to their family and to society around them. They don't live in a bubble.
Henry Green (01:43:20):
Do you think your life would have been very different if you had stayed in Egypt?
David Shama (01:43:25):
Probably. Probably. I probably would have had the opportunity of maybe spending more time with my father. Growing, watching him grow old with me a little more. I was deprived of him at a very young age. I had to find, I had to find my way on my own. Had we been in Egypt, probably he would have lived a little longer. Comfort would have been easier. I would have not had been as screwed up as I was when I left, and I needed to gain that self assurance that I've acquired today as an old man. It took time. It took a lot of time, but certain things never change.
David Shama (01:44:15):
We live at home, just to give you an instance. Every night I say to my wife, "Everything okay? Are all the doors unlocked?" "Oh, yeah, yeah. Don't worry." Front door is open, back door is open, windows are open. She doesn't think that way. She doesn't think that way. Having lived through what I lived through, every door has to be locked. Every window has to be secured. I can't go to sleep otherwise. So there is certain things that stay with you and haunt you just about forever. You can't relax.
Henry Green (01:44:55):
Have you ever gone back to Egypt?
David Shama (01:44:57):
No. I can't. I can't, and I wouldn't take the chance.
Henry Green (01:45:01):
Okay.
David Shama (01:45:02):
Because of the way we escaped, if there is a residue of the name somewhere, Shama on a piece of paper somewhere, I, Canada could not protect me. From what I understand, a Canadian passport would protect me anywhere in the world except my country of birth, which would take precedence.
Henry Green (01:45:22):
Have you visited Israel ever?
David Shama (01:45:24):
Yes.
Henry Green (01:45:25):
Um, more than once, or?
David Shama (01:45:27):
A couple of times. My daughter, her bat mitzvah was in Israel, at [inaudible 01:45:32], the oldest free-standing synagogue. It was a wonderful experience, because right after the service was concluded, helicopters started to zoom up in, and paratroopers were jumping out with guns and bibles in their hands to be sworn in. It was a fabulous thing. Never forget it.
Henry Green (01:45:57):
Let me ask you one more question.
David Shama (01:45:59):
Sure.
Henry Green (01:45:59):
And that is, what message would you like to give to anyone who might listen to this interview?
David Shama (01:46:12):
Life is an experience. Good and bad. It's how you deal with it.
Henry Green (01:46:23):
Thank you so much, David, for taking the time to share with us your stories.
David Shama (01:46:28):
My pleasure.
PART 4 OF 4 ENDS [01:46:40]