Cleaned by: Mariel Langer
Transcribed by: Temi

Interview date: March 23rd, 2023

Interviewer: Lisette Shashoua

Location: Montreal, QC

Total time: 53:33

Lisette Shashoua (00:18):

Could you please tell me your name and your place and date of birth?

Alfred Abdulezer (00:24):

My name is, uh, Shaul Alfred Abdulezer. Place of birth is Baghdad, Iraq, and the date is January, 1948.

Lisette Shashoua (00:34):

Okay. Thank you for participating in the Sephardi Voices Project. And, uh, well, can we start with a general question? Can you tell us something about your family's background?

Alfred Abdulezer (00:51):

Well, I, I was born in 1948, uh, a few months before the Declaration of Independence of the State of Israel. Uh, my grandmother named me Shaul after her father, Shaul Shasu, who is the patriarch of the Shasu family.

Lisette Shashoua (01:15):

Uh, do you have any vivid memories or anecdotes of your grandparents that you?

Alfred Abdulezer (01:20):

Yeah, we, we lived with our paternal, uh, grandparents, my grandmother, and my grandfather. So I have a lot of memories with them, especially with my grandfather. He used to conduct all the Shabbat, uh, dinner or night services every, uh, Friday night, and he used to do all the holidays, uh, like, uh, uh, the Rosh Hashanah and the Pesach services, and I can still hear his voice praying in the Judeo-Arabic, uh, <laugh>, um, prayers.

Lisette Shashoua (02:06):

Um, can you tell me something about your parents? How did they meet and get married?

Alfred Abdulezer (02:13):

That, I don't know. It was before I was born <laugh>, but my parents are cousins, so what, I believe it was probably an arranged marriage. Um, probably my maternal grandmother and grandfather arranged it, uh, because they're first cousins.

Lisette Shashoua (02:36):

What is your father's name?

Alfred Abdulezer (02:38):

Uh, Joseph. Joseph.

Lisette Shashoua (02:40):

And where was he born?

Alfred Abdulezer (02:41):

He was born in Baghdad, Iraq in 1917.

Lisette Shashoua (02:46):

And his profession,

Alfred Abdulezer (02:48):

Uh, well, he was a commercial or dodger, whatever, whatever interpreted

Lisette Shashoua (02:58):

Your mother's name. And where was she born?

Alfred Abdulezer (03:00):

And, uh, my mother is Doreen. Her family name Abdu Abdulezer. She was born again in Baghdad, 1925.

Lisette Shashoua (03:12):

And how old was your parents when they got married? How old was your mom?

Alfred Abdulezer (03:18):

Well, I would say, uh, they were married in 1946, so my mother was probably 21, and my father was born in 1917, so he was 31.

Lisette Shashoua (03:35):

And, uh, what did your mom do?

Alfred Abdulezer (03:39):

Uh, she was just a housewife. She didn't work at that time. Uh, the woman didn't work.

Lisette Shashoua (03:47):

Do you have any brothers or sisters?

Alfred Abdulezer (03:49):

Yes, I have a brother, Aboud Maurice, and he's here in Canada now.

Lisette Shashoua (03:55):

And you grew up,

Alfred Abdulezer (03:57):

Uh, well, we grew up together. He is younger, younger than me. He is born in 1952.

Lisette Shashoua (04:04):

What are your earliest memories growing up?

Alfred Abdulezer (04:10):

Well, my, I'll tell you my memories of growing up as a child, say from 1948 to, I would say 56. I don't remember, but I, my memories are pictures. Uh, I have a lot of pictures of when I was growing up from 1956 onwards. I have lots of memories because in 1956, my parents decided to leave Baghdad to Geneva and to live with the maternal grandparents. Unfortunately, my dad passed away in 1957, and we could only stay there like couple of years. And we came back to Baghdad in 1958, just before the summer. And there, my memory started because a month later we got the, uh, revolution, the 1958 revolution where they overthrew the king. Uh, it was a bloody revolution where they lynched, literally lynched on the street, the Prime Minister, Nuri Said, and, uh, <inaudible>, uh, Abd al-Ilah. And it was chaos. It was a curfew.

Alfred Abdulezer (05:39):

We had to stay home, uh, and like, uh, for a week or two until the army took over and they were on the streets of Baghdad. And slowly, uh, it was more peaceful. Uh, from then on, from 1958, uh, 1958, I went to elementary school in Baghdad. And from there, I, uh, I graduated and went to Frank Iny, uh, to, into the inter, uh, intermediate school. Our life as Jews during the Abd Karim Qasim period was good. Uh, we used to have fun in school, fun among family. Uh, we used to have parties, school parties, dancing parties. Uh, really the government didn't bother us. Uh, to me that was the golden period for the Jews, those four years until they overthrow, um, Abd Karim Qasim in 1963.

Lisette Shashoua (06:50):

I'm gonna just take you back for a few seconds to tell me a little more about, uh, your parents growing up.

Alfred Abdulezer (06:59):

Pardon me?

Lisette Shashoua (07:00):

About your parents when you were growing up.

Alfred Abdulezer (07:02):

Yes.

Lisette Shashoua (07:03):

What do you remember about the social circles you met? What do you remember about Switzerland when you were living there?

Alfred Abdulezer (07:10):

Well, in, in Switzerland we're pretty much free. We were together, we were going out together to the, uh, plus to, to have side trips to France and to the UK, uh, to Lausanne to other places in Switzerland. It was nice. It was a normal life

Lisette Shashoua (07:31):

With your parents when your dad was okay?

Alfred Abdulezer (07:33):

Right. Uh, they, uh, but after my dad passed away, things got different. And in Baghdad, uh, I mean, with my mother, we just had, uh, immediate family. We had, uh, uh, you know, immediate friends to have, uh, to pass time with.

Lisette Shashoua (07:58):

And, uh, your friends, uh, were they all Jewish? Were, did you have non-Jewish friends?

Alfred Abdulezer (08:04):

What I, from what I remember, that period, it was all Jewish friends. Uh, in those years

Lisette Shashoua (08:12):

And the language you spoke at home,

Alfred Abdulezer (08:15):

We spoke Arabic, Judeo-Arabic at home. Uh, but we studied, uh, we studied three languages, Arabic, English, and French at school.

Lisette Shashoua (08:28):

And the schools you went to, the schools you went to?

Alfred Abdulezer (08:32):

It's Frank Iny. Frank Iny School we, uh, we went to, uh, the intermediate, and then it becomes, is the same school becomes Shamash for the secondary, the secondary school. And I graduated from there.

Lisette Shashoua (08:50):

Did you go to elementary school?

Alfred Abdulezer (08:52):

Pardon me?

Lisette Shashoua (08:53):

The elementary school.

Alfred Abdulezer (08:54):

Elementary school was Menahem Daniel. Uh, it was a special school. Uh, special teachers, <laugh>. It was fun there. Yeah.

Lisette Shashoua (09:07):

Um, do you have any favorite expressions or idioms that you had at the family or the, the community that you can remember special?

Alfred Abdulezer (09:20):

Well, really what I remember, uh, special occasions, like, uh, we used to celebrate Purim and we used to celebrate it in the synagogue. And I remember wearing a, cowboy dress, and we used to run with friends. We used to run after each other and, uh, play cowboys and Indians, <laugh> sort of things.

Lisette Shashoua (09:46):

Okay. And while you are growing up, did you belong to any social sports or clubs, or,

Alfred Abdulezer (09:55):

There was no clubs. Uh, really, uh, what we belonged to is the school, and there was the <inaudible>, which is the, uh, again, a community, uh, sports center. We belonged there. So we used to go there.

Lisette Shashoua (10:11):

The YMCA, did you go?

Alfred Abdulezer (10:13):

No, not really.

Lisette Shashoua (10:16):

Okay. Tell us about your ne the neighborhood you, uh, you lived in, um, and, uh, you know, the area where you lived?

Alfred Abdulezer (10:25):

The, the neighborhood we lived in was the Bataween. Uh, our neighbors were mainly Muslims local people. Uh, in front of our house, there was, they built a cinema <inaudible>. Uh, so our street was congested every day, <laugh> with people, but we still lived there.

Lisette Shashoua (10:53):

Were you, how was your relationship with your neighbors, the Muslim neighbors?

Alfred Abdulezer (10:58):

Well, there was no problem with the neighbors, really. There was never a problem with the local population. The problem was with the government all the time, because they, they changed the rules. They set up the restrictions. They limited, uh, they limited the Jews there.

Lisette Shashoua (11:19):

Okay. What are the memories of the foods that you had that you ate?

Alfred Abdulezer (11:23):

Food we had, uh, we had a cook at home, really. And, uh, <laugh>, it used to make all kinds of, uh, Jewish Iraqi food. Which was nice, Tbeet,. And, uh, uh, <inaudible> and stuff like that. <laugh> and <inaudible>. Yes.

Lisette Shashoua (11:50):

Okay. And, uh, what was the dress that, uh, your parents' grandparents wore? European, uh, Western,

Alfred Abdulezer (11:59):

Uh, the dress, my, my, I remember my grandfather, he was wearing a normal suit, but he was wearing the sidara, uh, it's like an ottoman headdress. He was always wearing it. But apart from that, it was normal dress.

Lisette Shashoua (12:20):

And any memories you wanna share about the community life there?

Alfred Abdulezer (12:26):

The, the community life was mainly school. Uh, it was a community school, so we had lots of friends, uh, close friends for friends, cousins, <laugh>, uh, I mean, we're always together. Uh, it was nice. That's why I'm saying, uh, there were parties thrown in different homes, dancing parties. Uh, that's how we grew up.

Lisette Shashoua (13:00):

And how observant was your family? Did you go to synagogue? Did your family members go to synagogue?

Alfred Abdulezer (13:06):

Not really. I remember my grandfather was going every Saturday. We used to go on the high holidays, always like Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, uh, Purim, Pesach. We used to.

Lisette Shashoua (13:21):

Which one did you go?

Alfred Abdulezer (13:21):

We, we, we went to <inaudible>, uh, synagogue.

Lisette Shashoua (13:28):

Um, and how about a Bar Mitzvah? Did you have a Bar Mitzvah? Can you describe it?

Alfred Abdulezer (13:33):

That's a, that's a touchy subject, because yes, I had a Bar Mitzvah. Uh, but the bar mitzvah, I had, uh, was the Grand Rabbi Hakham Sasson. He came to the house and he put the tefillin on me, and we said the prayer, and that was my Bar Mitzvah <laugh>. That was the end of it.

Lisette Shashoua (14:00):

Did you invite people over, cousins?

Alfred Abdulezer (14:02):

No. No. It was just, uh, just the, just the family. That's all.

Lisette Shashoua (14:07):

Okay. Your memories of Passover, how did they keep Passover in your house?

Alfred Abdulezer (14:12):

They, they kept Passover pretty much. Uh, I remember the <inaudible>, they were being distributed before. I remember that, uh, the food, like special food that you used to eat, uh, during Passover. Uh, we kept it pretty much.

Lisette Shashoua (14:31):

You ate rice?

Alfred Abdulezer (14:32):

We ate rice, yes.

Lisette Shashoua (14:35):

And, uh, tell me if you did any pilgrimages to any of the prophets

Alfred Abdulezer (14:42):

Yes. No, we didn't go to the Isaiah, uh, but we went to the Kifl. Uh, I, from what I remember, went to the Kifl. Maybe three times. It's close to Baghdad, so like an hour and a half, uh, drive near Habbaniyah. And, uh, we visited it, uh, pretty much.

Lisette Shashoua (15:04):

Did you go with your family or with friends?

Alfred Abdulezer (15:06):

We went with friends with, uh, I don't remember going with family. We went with friends.

Lisette Shashoua (15:14):

School friends.

Alfred Abdulezer (15:15):

Yeah, school friends. School friends. And their family

Lisette Shashoua (15:20):

Do What do you remember of Jewish locations? Like the, can you describe the synagogue? I mean, our school was also,

Alfred Abdulezer (15:29):

That's what I remember, basically, the, the school and the synagogue, the <inaudible> synagogue. Although there were other synagogues in Baghdad, but I never visited them.

Lisette Shashoua (15:44):

But you, what do you remember of, uh, visiting the Kifl?

Alfred Abdulezer (15:48):

Of what?

Lisette Shashoua (15:49):

The Kifl, the, uh,

Alfred Abdulezer (15:50):

The Kifl? Well, I, I remember the, the tomb.

Lisette Shashoua (15:54):

Yeah, it was Ezekiel's tomb.

Alfred Abdulezer (15:57):

It was, uh, it was a tomb. Yeah, it was a tomb. And I believe, uh, what I remember, uh, it's was in a room by itself. And, uh, there were artifacts around it, and we just went around and, uh, that's about it. And said a prayer. And that's what I remember.

Lisette Shashoua (16:20):

Did you have any unique superstitions in the family or the school or the friends?

Alfred Abdulezer (16:27):

Not really. I mean, everybody there. Every Iraqi, <inaudible>, <laugh>, I believe that's, that's the only superstition that, uh, everybody has. What's that in

Lisette Shashoua (16:40):

What's that in English?

Alfred Abdulezer (16:42):

The evil eye? Yeah. I think it's prevalent in that region. Everybody has it, whether it's Jewish or even Arabs or all that.

Lisette Shashoua (16:54):

Um, can you tell me if you knew of any prominent Jewish organizations, uh, political or religious, any role of organizations such as, uh, Alliance Israelite Universelle?

Alfred Abdulezer (17:11):

No. The Alliance Israelite was before my time. Uh, I believe it was in my Mother's and Father's time. That's, that's the school they went to.

Lisette Shashoua (17:22):

And any Zionist organizations,

Alfred Abdulezer (17:25):

There was no organization because after the <inaudible>, you know, um, there was nothing left. And from what I remember, just the school and the synagogues.

Lisette Shashoua (17:38):

What do you mean by the <inaudible>?

Alfred Abdulezer (17:41):

The <inaudible> is, uh, well, that's, that's what I heard and read about, because I, I was little, uh, so I couldn't remember. Uh, but this is when the bulk of Iraqi Jews over a hundred thousand left Baghdad to Israel. And first they had them, from what I hear, they had them sign documents that they wanted to leave, and then they froze their properties. So they left with merely nothing to the Ma'abarot to the tents in Israel. Uh, we were part some of the few families that stayed. I think about 10,000 Jews stayed after the, <inaudible>, and we were a part of that, those families.

Lisette Shashoua (18:34):

And what was the, your family's view about Zionism or the state of Israel?

Alfred Abdulezer (18:43):

I, I, I don't think they had, uh, very particular views, but they, they were pro-Israel. They always, uh, talking good about Israel and, uh, from my grandfather never had the experience to go there. It was just what he read or what he heard.

Lisette Shashoua (19:08):

But was there any Zionism around?

Alfred Abdulezer (19:11):

Well, uh, I know one of my uncles was gung-ho about Zionism. And, uh, uh, he was part of the <inaudible>, and then he left in <inaudible>. He had to leave one of them, but the other uncles were, were not.

Lisette Shashoua (19:40):

Okay. Now, what's your family's relation with non-Jews or your relation with non-Jews? Say friends or colleagues at school?

Alfred Abdulezer (19:48):

Well, I know my grandfather had, uh, dealings like, uh, commerce, uh, with non-Jews. And, uh, I believe he even had some partners who were non-Jews. And those relationship were good.

Lisette Shashoua (20:06):

And did you visit each other at their

Alfred Abdulezer (20:09):

<crosstalk>? I don't, I don't know if we they visited each other or just strictly business.

Lisette Shashoua (20:15):

And what about you? Did you have any of your, uh, fellow students at university?

Alfred Abdulezer (20:21):

Well, I had a few friends that were non-Jew. But when I entered university in Al-Hekma, uh, then we had Christian friends and then Muslim friends, and we used to do projects together. So we visited each other home. And, uh, I don't remember having any problem, um, dealing with them. The problem started for us after the 1967 war where people, attitude changed, and government changed too. And the government attitude towards the Jews, uh, became completely negative. Uh, like after the '67 War, they even took away the telephones from our homes. We could not leave the country. We could not do any business. We could not find any work. We were always watched by Secret Service. Uh, it was ter terrible life. We were restricted, very restricted, thank God. I could, I could finish the last year of university with no problems. But, uh, after that, uh, no work.

Lisette Shashoua (21:44):

Okay. Any other memories you'd like to share with us?

Alfred Abdulezer (21:49):

Well, uh,

Lisette Shashoua (21:51):

Your experience, persecution against Jews you just mentioned. What about you personally?

Alfred Abdulezer (21:57):

Yeah, what I said is, after 1967, uh, life for the Jews became like hell in Baghdad, uh, especially after the takeover of the Ba'ath party. And Saddam was in the background. He was, uh, he was part of it. Uh, it started by, um, by the hanging of, uh, the Jews, by, by, by, uh, saying they were spies for Israel, and they were hung in, in public. Uh, but that was just show trials. And after that, they started, uh, hanging or killing, uh, their opposition. Uh, uh, so we understood that we have no place anymore in that country, and we made every effort to leave. Uh, I made, uh, our first effort to leave, uh, Baghdad in 1970. They said that the Kurds who control the northern border of Iraq have opened it for the Jews, and they will let them through. But unfortunately, uh, it was a rumor that spread among the Jewish community.

Alfred Abdulezer (23:15):

And we found ourselves like almost between 100-200 people wanting to escape at the same time. Uh, government got wind of it, and they arrested all of us, uh, in the, I believe it was in August, 1970. And they brought us all back to Baghdad and put us in jail, uh, for about three weeks. Uh, there was a big outcry, and they let us out, but they took everything from us that we were carrying. Uh, whether it was money or jewelry or, you know, whatever, they confiscated everything, but they let us out into our homes. Uh, that was my first bad experience. Uh, then still, I mean, I was adamant about leaving. I mean, there was no point in staying in that country. Um, luckily in, in October, 1970, I was visiting my cousins who had a shop on Rashid Street, a watch, shop, shop. Uh, and while, while we were sitting there, there was a Peshmerga Kurdish fighter.

Alfred Abdulezer (24:42):

Uh, he came in and he said, uh, he was sent with some money for the school that he was wounded with, uh, the war with the Iraqis. And he was treated in Haifa. Uh, he gave many convincing signs of trust, and he wanted to meet the headmaster of the school to, to give her the money. So I told him, okay, follow me. I'm gonna knock at her door and I leave, and you will do whatever business you have to do with her. So I left, walked, he was following me. I knocked on the door, went home, he stopped there, did whatever he did. Never heard <affirmative>, never heard anything from him till the next summer. He came back next July in 1971, and he said, we've arranged everything. Uh, we're ready to take you across the border to Iran. And he sort of said, what you gotta do?

Alfred Abdulezer (26:04):

And he wanted somebody in Baghdad to organize the families who wanted to leave, so they won't be chaos. Uh, we put him in touch with <inaudible> at the time. And, uh, uh, the next day, uh, I took my mother and brother, and we just put ourselves on a bus and left for the, <inaudible> and, uh, for the north of Iraq. Uh, we spent one night in, in a Capra, in <inaudible>, uh, because the, the way was too long. So we had to sleep there. So we slept under the stars, <laugh>, sort of. And next day, uh, took a taxi, told him, we want to visit the north of Iraq. Just pick us around.

Alfred Abdulezer (27:04):

I, we, we didn't really have much clothes or money with us, so he took us in his taxi, and we visited the north. It's be beautiful there. The beautiful sceneries, uh, north Iraq, many waterfalls, mountains, uh, greenery. Um, until we reached the border town of Haji Omaran and Haji Omaran, that's, that was the key. Um, because the, the Peshmerga told me, at Haji Omaran, you gotta go to a cafe, to Ahmed's cafe. So I asked the taxi to take us there. He took us to Ahmed Cafe, and we got down, and I, we asked for tea, and I asked for Ahmed. Ahmed came, and, uh, I asked him to go get Shukri. He understood right away what it's all about. He said, you send back your taxi, pay him. Tell him we are gonna stay here for a few days, and I'll go get Shukri.

Alfred Abdulezer (28:22):

Ahmad went in half an hour, Shukri was there. He came and we hugged and kissed, and it was very nice. He said, very nice. You came, I'm gonna take you with me, and we'll see what we can, we can arrange. He took us, uh, in his Land Rover, and he put us in one of their huts. He brought us fruits, he brought us food, and he said, I'll go on and see what, what arrangements we can make. So he, that was in the afternoon, uh, I believe July 13, if I remember right. Uh, he came back at seven o'clock. He said, we've made all the arrangements. We're gonna take you across the border tonight. Uh, so now I'm gonna take you with me, uh, to, to my men, to, to my Peshmergas and you will wait there. So it took us, it took us way up high in the mountains. Uh, it was pitch dark, and he stopped at the encampment of his fighters, the Peshmergas. And he said, you stay there. They're gonna come and take you.

Alfred Abdulezer (29:45):

Uh, my trust in him was infinite, you know, I had no other choice but trusting him. Uh, he seemed sincere. Uh, I gave him, I believe, a hundred dinars that I had. And he said, you just wait there. So we waited among the fighters, they were talking, of course, Kurdish, uh, among themselves, very simple people. I had taken my shoe off, and one of them took it in his hand to see what it is. You know, they've never seen a shoe because they wear their special sandals. Anyway, by nine o'clock, three Jeeps come in. Uh, one was a driver, uh, was for us to take us. And two other Jeeps were loaded with guards. Uh, armed guards said, okay, we're gonna go now.

Alfred Abdulezer (30:49):

So we go in the, the three Land Rovers. Uh, we get to the border, the famous <inaudible> that everybody has heard of, <laugh>, the, the driver blinks his lights, the <inaudible> opens, we go through perfect. He said, we're gonna take you now. We're in no man's land. Like it's, uh, it's between borders, between the Iraqi borders and Iranian border. He said, we're gonna take you to, um, somewhere where our leader wants to meet you, meet with you to the, to a qasr. He said, okay. So after 15 minute, half an hour, he reached that place, and we go into this <inaudible>. He takes us up stairs in a room and says, wait there, he's gonna come. After 15 minutes, there was a big commotion downstairs. And then the leader came.

Lisette Shashoua (31:59):

Leader of what?

Alfred Abdulezer (32:00):

Leader of the Kurds,

Lisette Shashoua (32:04):

In Iran?

Alfred Abdulezer (32:06):

No in Iraq. And lo and behold, he was Mustafa. Uh, he was Masoud Barzani himself. He was directing this whole thing. Masoud was the son of Mustafa Barzani. And he, he took under his wing this escape of the Jews. Uh, he wanted to know if we had any problem reaching their area, uh, if anybody took money, if, uh, uh, if, uh, I mean, who wanted to leave? So immediately I gave him the names of whoever we were with in prison and, and more people. And he said, uh, in those words, he says, we're helping you.

Alfred Abdulezer (32:58):

We will take, we're taking you across, because Israel is helping us. We want a country like you one day, uh, because they're helping us. We're helping you, and we're gonna take you across the border. He says, I'm gonna go. You wait a bit and my men's gonna are gonna take you to Iran. So it really was his men that were taking people through across the border. Anyway, he left. We got back into the Jeep, and it was a series of winding roads, dirt roads, up and down for about three quarter of an hour. And then I see that, uh, our driver stops. He puts his gun under his seat, and the other two Jeeps are going back. He said, we've arrived at the border, let them go back. And then he advanced, and there was a border post, an Iranian border post right there. I called the guard and he said, I remember he said, we are three <inaudible> and one <inaudible>. Three <inaudible> means three Jews in, in Iranian.

Lisette Shashoua (34:20):

What's <inaudible> for people who don't know?

Alfred Abdulezer (34:23):

That's, that's the Kurdish name for, for fighter, for Kurdish Fighter. Anyway,

Lisette Shashoua (34:28):

Remind me, what is a Hajbah for those who don't know the Hajbah that you're

Alfred Abdulezer (34:33):

The Hajbah was in Haji Omaran, yes.

Lisette Shashoua (34:37):

What was it? It was the,

Alfred Abdulezer (34:39):

No, it was like a wooden gate. That's all. And that's all it was.

Lisette Shashoua (34:44):

And it was supposed to be,

Alfred Abdulezer (34:45):

It's like one of those barriers you see here in the parking lot, but bigger and thicker <laugh> and, uh, you know, probably a tree trunk. That's what it was. Anyway, uh, the guy, the border guard went, went into his walkie talkie, I guess he was talking to Tehran, and he said, okay, you can go through. So our driver took us to the first town, Iranian town, Hanin on the border. He put us into a hotel and he said, they're gonna take you, come and take you tomorrow morning. I'm going back. So the Peshmerga went back, we slept in the hotel. And, uh, the second morning, way early in the morning, I believe six o'clock, somebody from the <inaudible> came and he exchanged money for us two months. And he put us on the adult bus to Tehran. And that was another experience on the bus, because we don't speak Iranian.

Alfred Abdulezer (35:53):

So he was stopping in different cities, like Tabriz and, and other, and they were stopping for lunch and to order. I used to go to the kitchen and look at their casserole of rice. They make different rice and say on this, this and that. Let's, uh, what they bring. It was a nice journey. Anyway, we arrive in Tehran after midnight, we arrive at the bus station. Where do we go from there? I don't know. So I said, let's take a taxi to the Israeli embassy. There was an Israeli Embassy. Embassy at that time. So we went there, we rang the door, somebody come out, tell him the story. He says, wait a minute. He went in and came out. He says, yes, we have your name. Now you go to Sina Hotel and tell them <inaudible> sent you. They're gonna give you rooms. So it was all arranged. We went to Sina Hotel. We got our rooms, and we slept the night. The next day there was <inaudible> and <inaudible> came, and, uh, we talked to them. They took us to the embassy. And, uh, it was beautiful. After, uh, we stayed six weeks in Tehran after it was a party every night, every night there was a busload coming from the border, a busload of Jews coming from the border to the hotel. Whoever was in prison the next two weeks were with us. I mean, it was unbelievable. That summer,

Lisette Shashoua (37:38):

Thanks to you giving the name.

Alfred Abdulezer (37:39):

That summer I have the list. There were more than 700 Jews that came through 700 after that. Uh, we left to, we left to, uh, Canada. We went to, uh, England. We just stopped over in England for a couple of days, and then we came to Canada.

Lisette Shashoua (38:07):

How did you get your papers to Canada?

Alfred Abdulezer (38:11):

Uh, well, we had applied for immigration from Baghdad, but we never got the immigration. And while in Tehran, we had no papers, we had no passport, nothing. Uh, but the Iranian gave us a laissez passer, which they call <inaudible> . Uh, it's, it's a very, uh, basic, uh, paper that says, uh, have your name, where you were born, and that's about it. And nobody wanted to give visas on this paper, except the Holland was giving visas. The British gave visas, and the Canadian gave us temporary visas because we had applied for immigration. They didn't give the immigration. So that's how we traveled. Even we tried to stop in Switzerland. The Swiss never wanted to give visa at the time.

Lisette Shashoua (39:16):

So you stopped in London?

Alfred Abdulezer (39:18):

We stopped in London. Uh, my grandmother came from Geneva to visit us, and then she went back and we came, we came straight here to Montreal. So that's, uh, that's the story of my, uh, escape leaving Iraq.

Lisette Shashoua (39:39):

I have so many questions that you answered already.

Alfred Abdulezer (39:42):

I did?

Lisette Shashoua (39:45):

How did you leave? Okay. What did you leave behind when you left Iraq?

Alfred Abdulezer (39:51):

Well, we, we left, uh, my grandfather and grandmother's house, uh, the one we were living in. And we, we left, we were partners with the Shashur properties. The Shashur have a lot of properties in Baghdad, uh, being left from the great friend Grandfather Shaul Shashur. And these are in prime location, uh, and they're worth a lot of money. Uh, this is what we left, and we could never retrieve anything, never sell, never get rent out of them, even the people living on them. They came to us here in Canada recently and asking us to please do something, get possession, because the thugs there, uh, the militias there are demolishing their homes over their heads, and they're throwing them out, and they're stealing those properties. But, uh, we've worked on it for about three, four years. Lisette, you are a partner too, and to no avail. Uh, as long as the militias are there and the regime is pro Iranian, we have zero chance.

Lisette Shashoua (41:20):

Can you tell me about your grandfather,

Speaker 4 (41:25):

The

Lisette Shashoua (41:25):

Your great-grandfather Shashur

Alfred Abdulezer (41:30):

Shaul Shashur was very famous. Uh, he was a very famous co merchant, um, in, in Baghdad, uh, it was at the turn of the 19th century. He built his house, I believe in 1908, uh, over the Tigris. He bought it, I think, from the, uh, Pasha, from the Ottoman governor. And he took possession and he renovated. And the whole Shashur family lived there for about 10 to 15 years from what I understood. Uh, at one point, uh, when Iraq got its independence, and the king came, uh, I mean, Faisal became the king of Iraq. They were looking for a place for him to stay. So, uh, Shaul shashur volunteered. They gave him the house to stay in. That's where the Faisal the first, the first king of Iraq stayed when he became King of Iraq.

Lisette Shashoua (42:48):

And tell me, what did the community, the Jewish community, leave behind when they,

Alfred Abdulezer (42:53):

The Jewish community left a lot of properties because it was a wealthy, uh, community. Uh, in a sense, they left the school. They, they, the money for the school was taken care of by rentals from other properties. Um, they, they left billions of dollars of properties,

Lisette Shashoua (43:20):

Synagogues?

Alfred Abdulezer (43:21):

The synagogue themselves are worth a lot of money there in prime location in Baghdad. Uh, and not only that, but the synagogue, there are lots of artifacts and, and, uh, Sefer Torahs that were all that stayed there, I dunno if some of them were looted or some of them, uh, went to the National Museum. Um, I have no information on that.

Lisette Shashoua (43:54):

Okay. What was it like coming to Canada after Iraq?

Alfred Abdulezer (44:00):

Well, it was like, uh, different life. Uh, so all of a sudden we're free to do what we want, sort of. And, uh, I went back to university, to a masters program. I made a lot of friends, uh, and, uh, sort of, we grew into the community here in Montreal. Um, and also, uh, I started working. I started working as engineer, as an engineer. And, uh, I had a lot of work friends who were Jewish and non-Jewish French Canadians, uh, English, uh, for all backgrounds, east Europeans.

Lisette Shashoua (44:46):

How come you speak French?

Alfred Abdulezer (44:48):

Because I studied French in Iraq, so I know French very well.

Lisette Shashoua (44:56):

Now, did you receive any help from any organizations, any <inaudible> Zionist organization?

Alfred Abdulezer (45:01):

No. We received no help from nobody. Uh, we came into Canada. We, we paid our own way, and we worked right after.

Lisette Shashoua (45:11):

And your first impressions of Canada?

Alfred Abdulezer (45:15):

Well, it's a beautiful country. It's a big country. Uh, as part of my work as an engineer, I traveled a lot. I traveled a lot in Quebec, in Ontario, and in, in the Maritimes and in other parts of Canada. It's a really beautiful country. A lot of natural resources, a lot of nature. Uh, it's really nice. It's something that proud of and proud to keep.

Lisette Shashoua (45:51):

So you or members of your family, you didn't have to retrain to be in Canada?

Alfred Abdulezer (45:58):

No. Uh, the education were received in, in Baghdad in the American university, was accepted right away by McGill and Sir George William at the time. So they gave us equivalence right away, and we could proceed right away into the master program. There was no problem.

Lisette Shashoua (46:28):

And your life, how did it develop here? Uh, privately, professionally? Uh,

Alfred Abdulezer (46:33):

Well, here professionally, of course, I started to work and then I met my wife to be in, in the seventies. We got married. Uh, we got, uh, three girls, um, Jessica, Jennifer, and Vanessa, and two of the girls are married, and we got six grandkids now.

Lisette Shashoua (46:56):

That's wonderful

Alfred Abdulezer (46:56):

And they are, and all the way from 10 years to 20, they're teenagers,

Lisette Shashoua (47:11):

And so there was no adjustment really.

Alfred Abdulezer (47:14):

There was no adjustment. Uh, no. We lived our life. I mean, uh, we joined the synagogue here. Um, that sort of, uh, gave us the, the religious life, uh, for our holidays to celebrate our holiday Shabbat and also religious occasions like the Bar Mitzvahs, Bar Mitzvahs and all that.

Lisette Shashoua (47:42):

So what part of your Sephardi heritage have you preserved? Uh,

Alfred Abdulezer (47:48):

We've preserved everything. Food. I think we preserved everything because, uh, uh, we still do the Shabbat services according to the Sephardi tradition, as well as Pesach. And then, um, Rosh Hashanah, according to the Sephardic tradition. Uh, so everything is preserved.

Lisette Shashoua (48:10):

And your most, the most important part of your Sephardic background for you, the most important part that you feel that you kept?

Alfred Abdulezer (48:20):

Well, I, I believe that, uh, I mean, we, we are, we're secular first. We're not very religious. I believe a lot of the Jews of Iraq are secular. They're not religious. They, they want to keep their Shabbat. Uh, some of them want to keep their Shabbat, uh, but definitely the high holidays like Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur and Pesach, and I believe everybody does.

Lisette Shashoua (48:53):

Okay. How do you describe yourself as your identity? What's your identity?

Alfred Abdulezer (48:59):

My identity. I feel I'm Jewish. I belong to the Jewish community. Uh, I'm pro-Israel. Uh, and that's what I feel.

Lisette Shashoua (49:18):

And you consider yourself a refugee or a migrant? Are you a refugee? Do you, are you fellow, are you a re you consider yourself a refugee or a migrant?

Alfred Abdulezer (49:30):

Well, I mean, we came first as refugees because we had no papers and, uh, refugee paper. Um, but, uh, I don't think it lasted long because, uh, we took care of ourselves.

Lisette Shashoua (49:45):

You didn't get any refugee help help as refugees?

Alfred Abdulezer (49:49):

No. We didn't get any refugee help at all. No.

Lisette Shashoua (49:54):

And where do you consider home?

Alfred Abdulezer (49:57):

Well, I consider home here, right here in Quebec. I felt very welcome by, by the French Canadian, by the local, uh, population. I speak their language and we get on, uh, very well with the English. The same thing. Uh, I feel very much at home and, uh, the greater Canada too. Uh, I didn't feel any, anything bad or any persecution or anything. I just felt welcome all the way.

Lisette Shashoua (50:29):

What identity did you wanna pass on to your children?

Alfred Abdulezer (50:34):

Well, first I want them to feel, uh, like they're Jewish. Uh, second, I feel the Canadian identity is very valuable, uh, that they should keep. And that's what they've been studying and, and integrating and preparing for at school.

Lisette Shashoua (50:54):

And which language do you speak with your children?

Alfred Abdulezer (50:58):

We speak English. Some of them, the older ones, uh, they understand and speak some Arabic.

Lisette Shashoua (51:09):

What impact did the refugee immigration experience have on your life?

Alfred Abdulezer (51:17):

Well, uh, I don't know why you, I didn't understand the question.

Lisette Shashoua (51:21):

Well I think here it says, do you think your life would've been different if you hadn't left? And what impact did coming to Canada have on you?

Alfred Abdulezer (51:31):

Well, as I said, there was, it was no option not to leave. I mean, we were persecuted, uh, not only persecuted some of the Jewish community in Baghdad, either they were imprisoned, they were killed in prison, or they were hanged. Okay. So there was no way that we could stay.

Lisette Shashoua (51:57):

Uh, have you ever gone, have you ever gone back to Iraq?

Alfred Abdulezer (52:01):

No.

Lisette Shashoua (52:04):

What, okay. That's the last question. What message would you like to give to anyone who might listen to this interview?

Alfred Abdulezer (52:13):

To the kids?

Lisette Shashoua (52:14):

No. Uh, any person listening. The message you wanna give to anybody listening to you, kids or, or a friend.

Alfred Abdulezer (52:22):

Well, what, what I, I wanna say is don't live under persecution. If you feel any little bit of being persecuted or, uh, people are against you or the government are doing things against you, you shouldn't accept it. Just leave. Now. You have the option to live everywhere and, uh, either come to, to, to Canada to live or, uh, to go to the states, or to go to Israel. These are open.

Lisette Shashoua (52:59):

Thank you very much for participating.

Alfred Abdulezer (53:00):

I thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity.