Interviewer: [00:00:18] What is your name?
Albertine Shawn: [00:00:21] Albertine.
Interviewer: [00:00:23] Albertine.
Albertine Shawn: [00:00:24] Shawn.
Interviewer: [00:00:25] Shawn. And was this your name at birth?
Albertine Shawn: [00:00:30] Yes.
Amy Shawn: [00:00:31] No, mom. What was your maiden name?
Albertine Shawn: [00:00:34] The maiden name?
Amy Shawn: [00:00:35] Yeah.
Albertine Shawn: [00:00:36] Tina.
Amy Shawn: [00:00:37] When you were born, it was Albertine Mansour.
Albertine Shawn: [00:00:40] Albertine Mansour.
Interviewer: [00:00:43] Thank you.
Interviewer: [00:00:44] And where were you born?
Albertine Shawn: [00:00:46] In Baghdad.
Interviewer: [00:00:50] Um, so I want to begin by just saying thank you, Sephardi Voices thanks you for making the time to share your story. We very much appreciate it.
Albertine Shawn: [00:01:04] Thank you very much for making this story.
Interviewer: [00:01:08] Thank you. Okay, so here's the first question. The first question is tell me something about your grandparents. Do you remember your grandparents?
Albertine Shawn: [00:01:20] My grandparents. No I don't.
Amy Shawn: [00:01:28] Did you have grandparents?
Albertine Shawn: [00:01:30] No I don't.
Interviewer: [00:01:32] So, so, Albertine, did you celebrate the Sabbath? Shabbat in your house?
Albertine Shawn: [00:01:41] We don't celebrate, but we are, like, doing the same thing every Shabbat.
Interviewer: [00:01:48] Who would come for Shabbat dinner to your house? Who would come to your house for Shabbat dinner?
Albertine Shawn: [00:01:54] Oh. Who is coming?
Interviewer: [00:02:00] Your parents would be there? Yes. Your parents would have the Shabbat dinner.
Albertine Shawn: [00:02:06] My parents were here.
Amy Shawn: [00:02:08] Mom here you wrote this yesterday. We had a small charcoal fireplace. And every Shabbat we would make rice and eggs. And that was always our Shabbat lunch.
Albertine Shawn: [00:02:18] our Shabbat.
Amy Shawn: [00:02:19] And then men would come over to play backgammon.
Albertine Shawn: [00:02:23] Yeah.
Amy Shawn: [00:02:23] On Shabbat.
Albertine Shawn: [00:02:24] Yeah.
Interviewer: [00:02:25] So did your your grandparents ever come over?
Albertine Shawn: [00:02:31] I didn't have grandparents.
Amy Shawn: [00:02:34] No
Albertine Shawn: [00:02:35] no. Okay. I didn't have grandparents.
Interviewer: [00:02:39] Okay? Your your parents, your your father and your mother.
Albertine Shawn: [00:02:46] Yeah.
Interviewer: [00:02:46] What is the name of your father?
Albertine Shawn: [00:02:49] Moshe.
Interviewer: [00:02:50] And what is the name of your mother?
Albertine Shawn: [00:02:52] Rahma.
Interviewer: [00:02:54] And how did they meet? Do you know how they met?
Amy Shawn: [00:03:01] How did they meet each other mom?
Albertine Shawn: [00:03:03] Yeah, my father used. My father used to live near her house and he liked her. And he proposed to her.
Interviewer: [00:03:26] Did, um. Did did his. Was it the families that wanted them to marry? Were the families wanting them to marry or.
Albertine Shawn: [00:03:39] No between them.
Interviewer: [00:03:41] It was between them.
Albertine Shawn: [00:03:42] Between them.
Interviewer: [00:03:43] Did your father dress in modern dress? How did he dress your father?
Albertine Shawn: [00:03:50] He used to wear just regular suit.
Interviewer: [00:03:54] A regular suit?
Albertine Shawn: [00:03:55] Yeah.
Interviewer: [00:03:55] Did he wear a fez?
Albertine Shawn: [00:03:59] No, nothing.
Interviewer: [00:04:00] How did your mother dress?
Albertine Shawn: [00:04:07] My mother used to to wear a regular dress.
Interviewer: [00:04:12] A regular dress?
Albertine Shawn: [00:04:13] Yeah.
Interviewer: [00:04:16] Um, did, um, what language did your parents speak?
Albertine Shawn: [00:04:21] Arabic.
Interviewer: [00:04:21] Arabic?
Albertine Shawn: [00:04:22] Yeah.
Interviewer: [00:04:23] Did they speak a Judaic Arabic also?
Albertine Shawn: [00:04:29] Did they? Excuse me?
Amy Shawn: [00:04:31] Wh at? The Arabic they spoke. Was it a Jewish Arabic?
Albertine Shawn: [00:04:36] Jewish Arabic.
Amy Shawn: [00:04:37] Because, you know, the dialect of the Jews from Baghdad is a little bit different than the Arabs.
Albertine Shawn: [00:04:43] No, no, the Baghdad, the their language, the Baghdad language.
Interviewer: [00:04:50] So I take that to mean they spoke Arabic and they also spoke the Jewish dialect. What language did they speak to you at home?
Albertine Shawn: [00:05:01] Arabic.
Interviewer: [00:05:02] Arabic. Did. Did your parents have help in the house?
Albertine Shawn: [00:05:07] Oh.
Amy Shawn: [00:05:08] You had housekeepers.
Albertine Shawn: [00:05:11] Housekeeper. We had a housekeeper in Baghdad.
Amy Shawn: [00:05:19] You told me that you had a lot of help.
Albertine Shawn: [00:05:21] Yeah. We had. We had a housekeeper. We had help.
Interviewer: [00:05:26] Was the helper. A Christian, a Muslim, or a Jew.
Albertine Shawn: [00:05:38] She was an Arab.
Interviewer: [00:05:41] She was an Arab.
Albertine Shawn: [00:05:42] Yeah.
Interviewer: [00:05:43] Was. An Arab Christian, an Arab Muslim or an Arab Jew?
Albertine Shawn: [00:05:49] Arab, Muslim.
Interviewer: [00:05:51] Arab, Muslim.
Albertine Shawn: [00:05:52] yeah.
Interviewer: [00:05:52] And did you have a gardener?
Albertine Shawn: [00:05:55] Uh. In Baghdad. Yes. We had a gardener. Yes.
Interviewer: [00:06:07] And was the gardener also an Arab?
Albertine Shawn: [00:06:17] I don't know, really.
Interviewer: [00:06:19] And your house? Your house? Was it on the Tigris River?
Albertine Shawn: [00:06:26] Our house was in Baghdad. On a regular area.
Interviewer: [00:06:45] Do you remember the name of the neighborhood? What was the name of the neighborhood?
Albertine Shawn: [00:06:55] Georgia.
Amy Shawn: [00:06:59] I have it. Here.
Albertine Shawn: [00:07:07] I think it was Georgia.
Amy Shawn: [00:07:08] Here Galit just sent it to me. Here's the name. Bab Al-Sharqi. Bab Al-Sharqi!
Albertine Shawn: [00:07:15] Oh, Bab Al-Sharqi!
Amy Shawn: [00:07:17] Yeah. That's your neighborhood.
Albertine Shawn: [00:07:20] Oh
Amy Shawn: [00:07:20] that's what Nissim said, remember?
Albertine Shawn: [00:07:22] Yeah, Okay.
Interviewer: [00:07:25] Hey, um, do you have, uh, brothers? Do you have a brother, brothers or sister?
Albertine Shawn: [00:07:30] Yeah.
Interviewer: [00:07:31] What is their name?
Albertine Shawn: [00:07:35] There was Albert. Nissim and Naim.
Interviewer: [00:07:41] And do you have a sister?
Albertine Shawn: [00:07:43] Violet.
Interviewer: [00:07:45] And what number are you? There's five children. What number are you?
Albertine Shawn: [00:07:49] Are you my? All my brothers are older than me. My sister. Younger.
Interviewer: [00:07:56] Younger?
Interviewer: [00:07:58] At. Do you remember going to synagogue?
Albertine Shawn: [00:08:03] I didn't go to synagogue.
Interviewer: [00:08:06] Do you remember, uh, a holiday like Yom Kippur? What would happen for Yom Kippur?
Amy Shawn: [00:08:14] Mom. Remember you said you went to Ben Ezra synagogue?
Albertine Shawn: [00:08:17] Yeah, we went to Yom Kippur
Amy Shawn: [00:08:19] Ben Ezra
Albertine Shawn: [00:08:20] Yom Kippur. We went to the synagogue.
Interviewer: [00:08:23] Did you fast? Did you eat on Yom Kippur or did you fast?
Albertine Shawn: [00:08:29] Uh, no, I eat.
Amy Shawn: [00:08:32] Mom.
Speaker4: [00:08:35] Sorry. It's okay.
Albertine Shawn: [00:08:38] I didn't fast.
Interviewer: [00:08:40] It could be. It could be.
Speaker4: [00:08:42] There's moral relativism going on.
Amy Shawn: [00:08:45] Are you sure you didn't fast?
Albertine Shawn: [00:08:47] No.
Speaker4: [00:08:49] It's on the record. It's on the official record.
Interviewer: [00:08:56] Okay.
Amy Shawn: [00:08:58] But I'm not sure you're right.
Albertine Shawn: [00:09:00] What
Amy Shawn: [00:09:02] Because when we were growing up in Montreal.
Albertine Shawn: [00:09:05] Yeah.
Interviewer: [00:09:07] Continue. This is good.
Speaker4: [00:09:10] Keep fighting for us. Yeah. Keep fighting for the client.
Amy Shawn: [00:09:14] Dad. Wasn't Dad always fasted? He stayed in synagogue the whole day, remember? So you want to say you were at home eating? Okay, okay.
Interviewer: [00:09:31] Um.
Interviewer: [00:09:33] Your. What was your father's name?
Albertine Shawn: [00:09:35] Moshe.
Interviewer: [00:09:36] And what was your mother's name?
Albertine Shawn: [00:09:38] Rahma.
Interviewer: [00:09:38] Rahma.
Interviewer: [00:09:39] And what did your father do? Uh. To work. What was his work?
Albertine Shawn: [00:09:44] He was a merchant. Like buy and sell, you know.
Interviewer: [00:09:51] And what did your mother do?
Albertine Shawn: [00:09:55] She was a housewife.
Interviewer: [00:09:57] And do you remember? Did she cook the food or did someone else cook the food?
Albertine Shawn: [00:10:03] Pardon me.
Interviewer: [00:10:04] Did she cook food?
Albertine Shawn: [00:10:07] Uh. Yes. She cook.
Interviewer: [00:10:10] What did you like? What kind of foods did you like?
Albertine Shawn: [00:10:12] Me?
Interviewer: [00:10:13] Yeah, yeah.
Albertine Shawn: [00:10:15] I like everything.
Amy Shawn: [00:10:25] You tell everybody that you don't fast on Yom Kippur.
Speaker4: [00:10:30] But your mother would.
Interviewer: [00:10:33] Would make special Iraqi dishes. Did you like Defina?
Albertine Shawn: [00:10:39] Yeah, I like the Iraqi dishes.
Amy Shawn: [00:10:42] But what did your mom make? Which dishes did she make?
Albertine Shawn: [00:10:45] Oh,
Amy Shawn: [00:10:46] She make kubba?
Albertine Shawn: [00:10:48] She makes all the Iraqi dishes.
Amy Shawn: [00:10:50] Like what?
Albertine Shawn: [00:10:51] There's There's the Kubba. Kubba, you know, small balls with inside, inside the meat and.
Amy Shawn: [00:11:04] Tbeet. Did she make Tbeet?
Albertine Shawn: [00:11:06] Tbeet. Tbeet like, you know, the the rice. They used to make to make it Friday and leave it for Saturday and put some eggs on it. So Saturday we eat the for lunch, the rice and the eggs.
Interviewer: [00:11:29] Did your father go to synagogue?
Albertine Shawn: [00:11:35] No.
Interviewer: [00:11:36] So, um. So you would have a Sabbath lunch?
Albertine Shawn: [00:11:40] Yeah. At home.
Interviewer: [00:11:41] At home?
Albertine Shawn: [00:11:42] At home.
Interviewer: [00:11:42] But he would not have. He would not be at synagogue.
Albertine Shawn: [00:11:46] No, he doesn't go to synagogue. Okay.
Interviewer: [00:11:50] Did, um. Did you did your family travel at all? In, in. Did you go traveling from Baghdad? Did you go visit? Uh, Basrah? Did you go visit Basrah?
Albertine Shawn: [00:12:06] No. We didn't travel. No.
Interviewer: [00:12:09] Did your father have a car?
Albertine Shawn: [00:12:13] No.
Interviewer: [00:12:14] How did he go to work?
Amy Shawn: [00:12:24] Mom, did you live close to the souk?
Albertine Shawn: [00:12:28] Yeah. We will live close.
Amy Shawn: [00:12:30] So did he walk there?
Albertine Shawn: [00:12:31] Yeah.
Amy Shawn: [00:12:31] He walked to his store.
Albertine Shawn: [00:12:32] He walked. Yeah.
Albertine Shawn: [00:12:33] He walked to the store. To his work. Yeah.
Interviewer: [00:12:38] And what school did you go to?
Albertine Shawn: [00:12:42] What school? Did I go? I went to the French school. The Alliance.
Interviewer: [00:12:50] Alliance? How did you go to school? How did you get to school?
Albertine Shawn: [00:12:56] I walked there.
Interviewer: [00:12:57] You walked there?
Albertine Shawn: [00:12:58] Yeah.
Interviewer: [00:12:58] And did your brothers, your sister go to the same school?
Albertine Shawn: [00:13:05] No. My sister wanted to go to the same school, but when she came, they had already they couldn't take more students. So she went to, uh, uh, Rahibat to the to the Christian Christian School. Yeah.
Interviewer: [00:13:35] And did you learn English when you were in Iraq?
Albertine Shawn: [00:13:40] In Baghdad? Did I learn English? No.
Interviewer: [00:13:45] You went to Alliance Francaise. Did you learn French?
Albertine Shawn: [00:13:48] French? Yeah.
Interviewer: [00:13:49] Can you speak French now?
Albertine Shawn: [00:13:51] Yeah, I speak French. Very good.
Interviewer: [00:13:53] So French. So you spoke French at school and Arabic at home?
Albertine Shawn: [00:13:59] Yeah.
Interviewer: [00:14:00] Did your parents speak French?
Albertine Shawn: [00:14:03] My family speak French.
Amy Shawn: [00:14:06] I think your mother spoke French, right?
Albertine Shawn: [00:14:09] No
Amy Shawn: [00:14:10] no.
Albertine Shawn: [00:14:10] no.
Amy Shawn: [00:14:10] So you only spoke it at school? I heard you speaking French to your mother.
Albertine Shawn: [00:14:15] My mother speak French?
Amy Shawn: [00:14:16] I heard you once speaking French to her.
Albertine Shawn: [00:14:23] Miss Nuna, miss Nuna.
Interviewer: [00:14:34] Okay.
Albertine Shawn: [00:14:37] This is new now.
Interviewer: [00:14:42] Um, when.
Interviewer: [00:14:45] Um, at the Alliance Francaise, the students were Jewish and Christian?
Albertine Shawn: [00:14:54] The schools?
Amy Shawn: [00:14:55] The students, mom, were your in your class? Were they all Jews or were they Jews and Christians?
Albertine Shawn: [00:15:02] Were mostly Jews, mostly Jews, mostly Jews.
Interviewer: [00:15:07] And there were some Christians at your school or some Muslims. Were there any Christians or Muslims in your class?
Albertine Shawn: [00:15:17] No. My cancel. Okay. No. No. Muslim there. No.
Interviewer: [00:15:25] Any Christians?
Albertine Shawn: [00:15:29] In the Alliance. Not really.
Amy Shawn: [00:15:34] They were all Jewish.
Albertine Shawn: [00:15:35] They were mostly Jewish.
Interviewer: [00:15:38] So did you ever did you visit like, did you have friends who weren't Jewish?
Albertine Shawn: [00:15:46] Pardon me.
Interviewer: [00:15:47] Did you? Did you, when you grew up?
Albertine Shawn: [00:15:50] Yes.
Interviewer: [00:15:51] You had friends, right?
Albertine Shawn: [00:15:52] Yes.
Interviewer: [00:15:52] Were your friends Jewish or were they also some Christians or some Muslims?
Albertine Shawn: [00:15:59] Mostly Jews.
Interviewer: [00:16:01] Did you have some Christian friends or Muslim friends?
Albertine Shawn: [00:16:08] No
Interviewer: [00:16:09] no.
Interviewer: [00:16:09] So when you would play with your friends, you were always then visiting with Jewish children?
Albertine Shawn: [00:16:16] Yes.
Interviewer: [00:16:17] You didn't have much contact with Muslim children?
Albertine Shawn: [00:16:20] No.
Amy Shawn: [00:16:21] It says here, mom, you wrote this yesterday. As we are Jews. They didn't like us very much. We were surrounded by Arabs. We were not friendly with them.
Albertine Shawn: [00:16:30] Yeah, because we were not friendly with the Arabs because they didn't like us. We are Jews. They didn't like us. So we were not friendly with them.
Interviewer: [00:16:43] Why did they not like you?
Albertine Shawn: [00:16:46] Because we are Jews.
Interviewer: [00:16:50] Did your parents. Your father was a salesman, right?
Albertine Shawn: [00:16:53] Right
Interviewer: [00:16:53] A merchant. Did he sell to Muslims?
Albertine Shawn: [00:16:59] My father.
Amy Shawn: [00:17:00] Did he do business only with Jews, or did he do business?
Albertine Shawn: [00:17:04] It did business with everybody.
Interviewer: [00:17:07] Did he have Muslim friends?
Albertine Shawn: [00:17:11] No wait, wait, wait, wait. Yes. He has some friends. Muslim.
Interviewer: [00:17:23] Did a muslim friend come to your house? Is one of his Muslim friends?
Albertine Shawn: [00:17:28] No, he doesn't come to our house.
Interviewer: [00:17:30] Did he go to their house?
Albertine Shawn: [00:17:34] No.
Interviewer: [00:17:36] Did your father go to, like, a cafe and drink?
Albertine Shawn: [00:17:41] Uh, no. No.
Interviewer: [00:17:43] Did your father play backgammon?
Albertine Shawn: [00:17:46] Yes.
Interviewer: [00:17:47] Where did he play Backgammon?
Albertine Shawn: [00:17:51] Where?
Interviewer: [00:17:52] Where did he play the game?
Amy Shawn: [00:17:55] He played at your house?
Albertine Shawn: [00:17:57] In the house.
Interviewer: [00:17:58] In the house?
Albertine Shawn: [00:17:59] Yeah
Interviewer: [00:18:00] Who did he play with?
Albertine Shawn: [00:18:03] We if we have some friends. He plays with the friends.
Interviewer: [00:18:07] So they were Jewish?
Albertine Shawn: [00:18:09] Yeah.
Interviewer: [00:18:10] Did your mother play cards?
Albertine Shawn: [00:18:14] No, she didn't play.
Interviewer: [00:18:16] She did not play cards?
Albertine Shawn: [00:18:17] No.
Interviewer: [00:18:18] What did your mother do for fun?
Albertine Shawn: [00:18:22] She's a she's a housewife. She cooks, she prepares, she prepares dinner.
Amy Shawn: [00:18:29] Mom, did your mother ever have fun?
Speaker4: [00:18:33] She had fun.
Amy Shawn: [00:18:34] You can say no. It's okay. Did she ever have fun?
Albertine Shawn: [00:18:39] No.
Speaker4: [00:18:43] Okay. That's the way it was.
Amy Shawn: [00:18:45] Did your father have fun?
Albertine Shawn: [00:18:52] Yeah. He was. He had fun. He had some fun.
Interviewer: [00:18:59] Okay. So your father had fun. Your mother did not have fun.
Speaker4: [00:19:03] Yeah.
Interviewer: [00:19:05] Your father played backgammon?
Albertine Shawn: [00:19:07] Yeah.
Interviewer: [00:19:07] Your mother cooked?
Albertine Shawn: [00:19:08] No
Amy Shawn: [00:19:09] no, your mother, she cooked.
Speaker4: [00:19:11] She cooked.
Amy Shawn: [00:19:12] Did she play backgammon?
Albertine Shawn: [00:19:14] No no.
Interviewer: [00:19:17] Did who did the shopping in your house? Did your mother go to the souk to shop?
Albertine Shawn: [00:19:22] Oh, wait. Who did the shopping? My father. My brother.
Interviewer: [00:19:35] Your brother?
Albertine Shawn: [00:19:36] Yeah.
Albertine Shawn: [00:19:37] Nissim used to shop.
Interviewer: [00:19:41] How would he know what to buy?
Albertine Shawn: [00:19:46] He used to go on to buy whatever he wants. Only if he tells him about something he buys. Otherwise. Otherwise he buys what he wants.
Interviewer: [00:19:57] And then your mother would cook what he buys.
Albertine Shawn: [00:19:59] Yeah. on Thursday. Thursday? He doesn't want to go.
Amy Shawn: [00:20:07] Why?
Albertine Shawn: [00:20:09] He said. He wants a day off. So he left Thursday us without food.
Amy Shawn: [00:20:26] What about this? You said you had a maid there that worked in the house. The one that Albert was friends with.
Albertine Shawn: [00:20:35] Oh. The. The maid [00:20:40] searched for the clue. [00:20:42]
Amy Shawn: [00:20:43] But wasn't she the one that went shopping [00:20:47] either? Either clue. [00:20:49] Go ahead.
Albertine Shawn: [00:20:52] I had.
Speaker4: [00:20:55] Maybe she shopped on Thursday.
Amy Shawn: [00:21:03] Was she?
Albertine Shawn: [00:21:04] I had a brother. A brother at home. He was very wild. My oldest one. So. And there was a maid there. He got friendly with her. So we find the house is so clean. Unbelievable. And my mother was kind of smart. She told me once. She said, you know. Your brother has has, uh, a friendly. With this girl. I said, how do you know? She said, I think so. So I started to. To look around and I said that she was right. She was right. So. We kicked her off the [00:22:27] med. And [00:22:29] that was it.
Interviewer: [00:22:31] What did Albert say?
Albertine Shawn: [00:22:32] Yeah
Amy Shawn: [00:22:33] He said. What did Albert say?
Albertine Shawn: [00:22:38] He couldn't say anything. He couldn't tell us to leave her because we didn't want her at home.
Interviewer: [00:22:50] Were you close with your sister, Violet?
Albertine Shawn: [00:22:54] The sister. Violet.
Amy Shawn: [00:22:56] Were you close to Violette? To Letta.
Albertine Shawn: [00:23:02] I wasn't so close to her because. She was always in a bad mood. I don't know why. She wasn't happy at home. She got married. She's she's Iraqi and she got married to an English guy, so she didn't have a nice life. He was he was a nice guy. She was a nice girl. But they were separate. Uh, tradition. Like whatever each one wants his own way. So they didn't live happily.
Interviewer: [00:23:46] Which was he? Jewish?
Albertine Shawn: [00:23:49] He was Jewish. Yes.
Interviewer: [00:23:51] And he lived. They lived where? In London.
Albertine Shawn: [00:23:54] In London.
Interviewer: [00:23:57] So let me take you to, um, um, 1941, the Farhud. The.
Albertine Shawn: [00:24:05] The Farhud.
Interviewer: [00:24:06] In 1941.
Albertine Shawn: [00:24:07] Yes.
Interviewer: [00:24:08] So you were 12 years old? You were born in 1929?
Albertine Shawn: [00:24:13] Yes.
Interviewer: [00:24:13] So when that happened, you were 12 years old?
Albertine Shawn: [00:24:17] Yeah.
Interviewer: [00:24:18] Do you have any memories? Can you tell me something about it?
Amy Shawn: [00:24:26] Take your time, mom.
Albertine Shawn: [00:24:29] Yes, I have some memory. I was sitting at home. And I was very afraid of what was happening. And.
Amy Shawn: [00:24:55] Did you hear anything outside? How did you know what was happening?
Albertine Shawn: [00:25:00] Because there were shots at night. So my father in the morning, my father, he said, I'm going to see what happened last night. I said, don't go. Maybe it's not you. Maybe. Maybe it's not safe. He said, no, no, it's safe, I will go. He went. After a while. We hear some shots. It wasn't. It wasn't steady there. I was very afraid. And this guy knock on the door. On our door. I was afraid to open. He said, don't. Don't be afraid. I am your neighbor. I want to ask you if you need anything. Some rice, some food I can buy you. I know you can't go. I said, no, thank you very much, but I want something from you.
Amy Shawn: [00:26:11] Mom sorry. Wasn't it your mother that he was speaking to last time you told that story? You said he was speaking to your mother.
Albertine Shawn: [00:26:24] Who was speaking?
Amy Shawn: [00:26:26] The man outside was asking your mother if she needed anything. He wasn't asking you. You were only 12. It was your mother, right?
Albertine Shawn: [00:26:34] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. My mother. Okay. Yeah. So she said we don't need anything, but my my husband left the house. And if you are kind enough, you see where he is, I am afraid.
Albertine Shawn: [00:26:53] Uh. He can't come by himself. So really, he was so nice. He went. He looked for him and he brought him home. So the neighborhood was where they were all very nice to us. When everything finished. So. We bought him. Uh, we we we brought a very big tray of of sweet and everybody put a check, some money, and we send it to him. He was very grateful.
Amy Shawn: [00:27:39] Mom, remember you told me the story that when it was the pogroms, some of the neighbors stood outside the gates of the neighborhood and wouldn't let them come in?
Albertine Shawn: [00:27:50] Yeah.
Amy Shawn: [00:27:50] So maybe you should tell that story.
Albertine Shawn: [00:27:52] Yeah And in the pogrom. Some of the Arabs neighborhood. They stood on each side and they didn't let anybody to come near us. They were very, very nice to us. So when everything was finished. We were very grateful to them and we send them some money.
Interviewer: [00:28:29] Did. Did, um, you did any of your parents friends? Did any of them get injured or died in the pogrom?
Amy Shawn: [00:28:43] During the pogrom?
Albertine Shawn: [00:28:45] Yeah.
Amy Shawn: [00:28:45] Did you know people who got hurt or injured? Did your parents know anyone?
Albertine Shawn: [00:28:54] Let me think. No, no, nobody got hurt. No.
Interviewer: [00:29:04] So, um. Why did you leave Baghdad? Why did you leave?
Albertine Shawn: [00:29:11] Why did we leave Baghdad? Because we were Jews and we are surrounded by Arabs.
Interviewer: [00:29:24] But your father. You said your father sold clothes, uh, was a merchant and sold to Muslims. Sold to Everyone.
Albertine Shawn: [00:29:33] Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: [00:29:34] And the neighbors protected you.
Albertine Shawn: [00:29:36] But. But still. Still.
Amy Shawn: [00:29:38] Mom, remember you told the other story of the other Christian neighbors who were celebrating during the pogrom?
Albertine Shawn: [00:29:46] Yeah, we had we had friends across the street from us. Christian. And they they were very friendly. They seemed friendly to us. But when the pogrom came, they started to clap their hands and they were so nasty.
Interviewer: [00:30:15] Did you ever. Did they have children?
Albertine Shawn: [00:30:19] Did.
Interviewer: [00:30:20] Did they have children? Did those neighbors have children?
Albertine Shawn: [00:30:24] Uh.
Albertine Shawn: [00:30:25] No. No.
Interviewer: [00:30:28] So did you. Did you have experiences where where people were, um, not nice to you?
Amy Shawn: [00:30:42] Remember the story about your necklace? You wrote it here?
Albertine Shawn: [00:30:45] Yeah. Uh, once I was walking in the street and I was wearing a gold necklace, and an Arab came from behind me, and he grabbed it. He wanted to tear it, but he couldn't because it was a thick one. And I kicked him, and he left.
Interviewer: [00:31:12] You were brave.
Albertine Shawn: [00:31:14] He didn't take it.
Interviewer: [00:31:17] He?
Interviewer: [00:31:17] Did your your brothers ever tell you of stories where they were were worried about something?
Albertine Shawn: [00:31:29] No. Not really. No.
Amy Shawn: [00:31:31] Did you go out by yourself in Baghdad or you had to be chaperoned?
Albertine Shawn: [00:31:38] No. I could go by myself.
Amy Shawn: [00:31:40] You told me. When you went out, your brothers had to go with you.
Albertine Shawn: [00:31:48] No.
Amy Shawn: [00:31:50] Okay.
Albertine Shawn: [00:31:51] No, no.
Interviewer: [00:31:53] So. So you, um, you went to Alliance Francaise and, um. Um, you're born in 1929, and you left. What year did you leave Baghdad?
Albertine Shawn: [00:32:08] We leaved Baghdad 1949.
Interviewer: [00:32:15] 49.
Albertine Shawn: [00:32:15] 1949.
Interviewer: [00:32:17] So, when you finished high school, you were 18 years old.
Albertine Shawn: [00:32:22] Yeah.
Interviewer: [00:32:22] What did you do after high school?
Albertine Shawn: [00:32:26] What did I do where?
Amy Shawn: [00:32:27] after high school.
Interviewer: [00:32:29] After high school? After the Alliance.
Amy Shawn: [00:32:38] Did you work, mom? In Baghdad?
Albertine Shawn: [00:32:42] No.
Amy Shawn: [00:32:43] Here. Read this that you just wrote.
Albertine Shawn: [00:32:52] Could leave not taking anything.
Albertine Shawn: [00:33:02] Uh.
Albertine Shawn: [00:33:03] I say any.
Amy Shawn: [00:33:05] He said, did you work in Baghdad? And you said, no, no, he said, did you finish high school when you were 18? And you said, yes.
Albertine Shawn: [00:33:14] Yes, I finished.
Amy Shawn: [00:33:16] And then what did you do after you finished high school? Did you leave right away for Israel?
Albertine Shawn: [00:33:26] Yeah. When Israel was born, we left. We went to Israel.
Interviewer: [00:33:32] But. After you. After you finished high school and before you went to Israel. Did you work? Did you? What did you do?
Albertine Shawn: [00:33:45] I didn't do anything.
Amy Shawn: [00:33:47] What do you mean? You woke up every day and did nothing.
Albertine Shawn: [00:33:52] I didn't do any. What did I do?
Amy Shawn: [00:33:54] If you weren't a student and you weren't working, what were you doing?
Albertine Shawn: [00:34:00] Mutsuhito.
Amy Shawn: [00:34:01] You must have after you finished. Did you graduate from high school? Did you finish high school or did you have to leave early?
Albertine Shawn: [00:34:11] No, I finished.
Amy Shawn: [00:34:12] so, after you finished, you didn't stay home every day. You must have done something.
Albertine Shawn: [00:34:30] I don't remember, I swear.
Amy Shawn: [00:34:32] Didn't you tell me you worked for El Al?
Albertine Shawn: [00:34:41] For El Al I work.
Interviewer: [00:34:47] Okay, let me ask you another question. Did you. You went to Alliance?
Albertine Shawn: [00:34:52] Yes.
Interviewer: [00:34:53] Your father did not go to synagogue?
Albertine Shawn: [00:34:56] No.
Interviewer: [00:34:56] Okay. Did you have any Jewish education?
Albertine Shawn: [00:35:00] any Jewish.
Interviewer: [00:35:02] Education. Could you read it? Could you read any Hebrew? Did you learn any Hebrew?
Albertine Shawn: [00:35:13] Hebrew. Yes, I know Hebrew.
Amy Shawn: [00:35:19] No, but when you were living in Baghdad, did you have any Jewish education? Did you learn anything of the Torah? Did you learn any Hebrew.
Interviewer: [00:35:27] Anything about the Jews?
Amy Shawn: [00:35:31] Did you know the stories of the Bible?
Albertine Shawn: [00:35:34] No
Amy Shawn: [00:35:34] When you were a young girl, you didn't know the story of Passover?
Albertine Shawn: [00:35:38] No.
Amy Shawn: [00:35:38] Can you? I wanna.
Albertine Shawn: [00:35:40] no.
Albertine Shawn: [00:35:43] I say the truth. No.
Amy Shawn: [00:35:45] Honestly, I'm trying to figure out why you were such a demanding mother.
Interviewer: [00:35:50] She's going to have to go back into therapy.
Amy Shawn: [00:35:52] Honestly, I'm, like, traumatized. I had to do all the things you never did.
Interviewer: [00:35:58] Okay, here. Here's a simple question. Okay. Did you celebrate Passover?
Albertine Shawn: [00:36:03] Passover?
Interviewer: [00:36:04] Yeah. At home.
Interviewer: [00:36:06] Did you have a Seder? Did you celebrate Passover in Baghdad?
Albertine Shawn: [00:36:15] We don't celebrate. Okay?
Amy Shawn: [00:36:17] Mum.
Amy Shawn: [00:36:17] Mum, mum. When I was growing up in Montreal, we always had a Passover dinner. We would go either to Valentine or to your friend Gracie. Or at our. We would have a Passover, remember? With the prayer. With the eggs and the parsley and the lemon and the garlic. Remember?
Albertine Shawn: [00:36:34] Yeah.
Amy Shawn: [00:36:34] Okay. You didn't only start that when you got to Canada. You must have done it when you were at home in Baghdad. That's when we.
Amy Shawn: [00:36:44] No.
Albertine Shawn: [00:36:45] Maybe.
Interviewer: [00:36:48] Okay. Because, I mean, you said you celebrated Shabbat. Sabbath. You said we would. You were your mother would cook and you'd have this meal for Sabbath. Right. You said that. So if you celebrated the Sabbath, usually you would celebrate Passover.
Amy Shawn: [00:37:06] Yeah, mom. Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanah, Passover. You didn't ignore the holidays?
Albertine Shawn: [00:37:11] Yeah, yeah, we used to, to celebrate whatever. We could do small things.
Interviewer: [00:37:19] So. So I'm asking, did that give you some Jewish education? Did you have some Jewish education when you celebrated? The Sabbath. You knew that was the Jewish day of rest.
Albertine Shawn: [00:37:32] Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: [00:37:32] It's different than Sunday in the Christian.
Albertine Shawn: [00:37:34] Sure.
Interviewer: [00:37:35] Okay. Did you know that the Muslims prayed on Friday?
Albertine Shawn: [00:37:39] Sure.
Interviewer: [00:37:40] Okay. So when Christmas came, you knew that it was not your festival? Yeah. So when Passover came.
Albertine Shawn: [00:37:48] I know it's Passover. It's our our holiday.
Albertine Shawn: [00:37:54] Okay.
Interviewer: [00:37:54] So did you eat bread on Passover?
Albertine Shawn: [00:37:58] Yes. I ate the bread.
Albertine Shawn: [00:38:02] I did. I was.
Amy Shawn: [00:38:05] I was just about to stop you. I was just about to pinch your arm. I can't save you from yourself.
Albertine Shawn: [00:38:13] We did. No?
Amy Shawn: [00:38:14] I don't know.
Albertine Shawn: [00:38:15] I did
Amy Shawn: [00:38:16] I don't think so, mom. Because in Montreal, growing up during Passover, we had matzo in our house. Yeah. I'm trying. Mum. He's trying. You have to understand what they're trying to understand there. They know you're Jewish, so they're trying to understand. How do you know that you're Jewish? How do you know that you were Jewish? You. You grew up in Baghdad. Your family was Jewish. You must have celebrated the holidays or known something about your Judaism. Otherwise you wouldn't feel so strongly as a Jew.
Albertine Shawn: [00:38:52] Yeah, that's. That's right.
Amy Shawn: [00:38:53] So what was it that made you understand that you were Jewish? Was it the traditions, the way your house was? The holidays
Albertine Shawn: [00:39:05] the holidays?
Albertine Shawn: [00:39:07] The. The holidays Abby.
Amy Shawn: [00:39:17] Yeah. So you celebrated the holidays?
Albertine Shawn: [00:39:19] Yeah, we celebrated the holidays.
Amy Shawn: [00:39:21] And you and you observed Shabbat?
Albertine Shawn: [00:39:23] Yeah.
Amy Shawn: [00:39:26] And your friends were all Jewish.
Albertine Shawn: [00:39:29] My friend was all Jewish.
Amy Shawn: [00:39:34] Did you did you know dad when he was in the Haganah?
Albertine Shawn: [00:39:41] Yeah.
Amy Shawn: [00:39:42] So were you familiar with the activities of the Haganah? Were your friends in it?
Albertine Shawn: [00:39:50] I was afraid, but I couldn't do anything.
Amy Shawn: [00:39:53] You were afraid of what?
Albertine Shawn: [00:39:54] That is in the Haganah. They might find him. He used. He used to transfer. Uh,
Amy Shawn: [00:40:07] Weapons.
Albertine Shawn: [00:40:08] Weapons. Yeah.
Amy Shawn: [00:40:10] Did you know him then?
Albertine Shawn: [00:40:11] Yeah.
Amy Shawn: [00:40:13] But you weren't married then because you only got married in Israel. But you knew him because he was friends with your brothers?
Albertine Shawn: [00:40:33] Yeah. Yeah, he was friends with my brothers. Yeah.
Interviewer: [00:40:38] Was was Israel ever mentioned in your home?
Amy Shawn: [00:40:43] Did you talk about Israel when you were at home in Baghdad and growing up? Did you know about Israel?
Albertine Shawn: [00:40:50] Yeah, we knew about Israel. Sure.
Amy Shawn: [00:40:53] What was your feeling about it? You were in living in an Arab country and you knew there was an Israel. What was the feeling about it?
Albertine Shawn: [00:41:01] The feeling. We wanted to go there.
Amy Shawn: [00:41:03] You did?
Albertine Shawn: [00:41:04] Yeah we did. We wanted to go there as soon as as Israel created, we wanted to go there.
Amy Shawn: [00:41:13] Why?
Albertine Shawn: [00:41:15] Because it's Israel.
Amy Shawn: [00:41:18] Explain.
Albertine Shawn: [00:41:23] Because they are all Jewish. They're. And for sure we will be protected there and we wanted to go there.
Amy Shawn: [00:41:35] And did you feel not protected because of the pogrom, or did you always feel unsafe, like growing up your whole life? Did you always have a feeling of not feeling safe?
Albertine Shawn: [00:41:48] We always, I always felt. Not protected there. I always felt not safe there. I don't know why, but I felt that.
Interviewer: [00:42:08] So the. Your father was in the Haganah?
Amy Shawn: [00:42:10] Yes.
Interviewer: [00:42:13] And was your brother Albert in the Haganah?
Albertine Shawn: [00:42:17] Uh.
Albertine Shawn: [00:42:19] No, I don't think so.
Amy Shawn: [00:42:21] Naim or Nissim in the Haganah?
Albertine Shawn: [00:42:24] Naim was there.
Interviewer: [00:42:26] Was in the Haganah?
Albertine Shawn: [00:42:27] Yeah.
Interviewer: [00:42:28] Did your father bring any weapons home?
Amy Shawn: [00:42:31] My father?
Interviewer: [00:42:32] Her husband?
Interviewer: [00:42:34] Oh, wait. Your father.
Amy Shawn: [00:42:38] Her husband was in the Haganah.
Interviewer: [00:42:39] Your husband was in the Haganah. Ah, so not your father. Your husband?
Albertine Shawn: [00:42:44] My husband.
Interviewer: [00:42:45] But did you know your husband in Baghdad?
Speaker4: [00:42:50] Uh.
Amy Shawn: [00:42:53] Mom. Dad was friends with your brothers.
Albertine Shawn: [00:42:55] Yes. He was friendly with. With my brothers.
Albertine Shawn: [00:43:00] Yeah.
Interviewer: [00:43:00] So your. And what is your husband's name?
Albertine Shawn: [00:43:05] My husband, Viktor.
Interviewer: [00:43:06] So Viktor was active in the Haganah? Yeah. Did you know Viktor in Baghdad?
Albertine Shawn: [00:43:14] Yes.
Interviewer: [00:43:15] Did you know he was in the Haganah?
Albertine Shawn: [00:43:18] Yes.
Interviewer: [00:43:19] Did you know your brother was in the Haganah?
Albertine Shawn: [00:43:23] Yes.
Interviewer: [00:43:25] Did they ever ask you to go to a meeting? To go to a meeting to come with them.
Albertine Shawn: [00:43:33] No.
Interviewer: [00:43:34] Brothers say come, come with me.
Albertine Shawn: [00:43:35] No, no, they didn't ask me. No.
Interviewer: [00:43:38] Was it just boys? No. Girls?
Albertine Shawn: [00:43:41] No.
Amy Shawn: [00:43:42] Was it boys only or girls too? In the Haganah.
Albertine Shawn: [00:43:47] I think only boys.
Amy Shawn: [00:43:49] No, mom. There must have been girls. Because remember when dad told the story? When they had to move the weapons from one safe house to another?
Albertine Shawn: [00:43:57] Yeah.
Amy Shawn: [00:43:57] And remember they said a girl came and he had to pretend they were married with the baby. Do you remember that story?
Albertine Shawn: [00:44:05] Yeah.
Amy Shawn: [00:44:06] Why don't you tell them that story?
Albertine Shawn: [00:44:11] Once. My husband. My husband used to, to take, uh, to, to to take, uh.
Amy Shawn: [00:44:31] Guns
Albertine Shawn: [00:44:32] Arms
Interviewer: [00:44:32] weapons, guns.
Albertine Shawn: [00:44:33] Weapons from one place to the other. So? So how did he do it? He used to put it. In in a small carriage. And put the the arms there. And then put a take a baby. From somewhere and the baby sat on the weapons. And then he travel to take the weapons from one place to the other. One day he was doing this. So the. the the trolley was so heavy it broke. In the middle of the of the street. So it didn't do what to what to do.
Amy Shawn: [00:45:36] He didn't know what to do.
Albertine Shawn: [00:45:37] He didn't know what to do.
Amy Shawn: [00:45:39] There was a girl with him. Mum. There was a lady with him.
Albertine Shawn: [00:45:43] There was a girl with him
Amy Shawn: [00:45:45] pretending to be his wife.
Albertine Shawn: [00:45:46] So pretended to be his wife. And then the girl started to bend on the on the trolley and. Like, play with the girl. With the with the babies.
Amy Shawn: [00:46:06] To make a commotion.
Albertine Shawn: [00:46:06] To make a commotion until.
Amy Shawn: [00:46:08] So nobody would notice. Right.
Albertine Shawn: [00:46:11] To nobody will notice what there is. Until he took the the stuff to his place.
Interviewer: [00:46:19] Did your brother know Hillel Shohet?
Albertine Shawn: [00:46:24] Is my brother.
Amy Shawn: [00:46:25] Does your brother know? Did he know? Hillel Shohet.
Albertine Shawn: [00:46:30] Shohet
Amy Shawn: [00:46:30] Shohet
Albertine Shawn: [00:46:32] Shohet
Amy Shawn: [00:46:33] Shohet
Interviewer: [00:46:34] Shohet.
Amy Shawn: [00:46:35] Shohet.
Albertine Shawn: [00:46:36] Shohet.
Interviewer: [00:46:37] His picutre was in the book you saw.
Albertine Shawn: [00:46:39] Shohet
Amy Shawn: [00:46:40] Shohet
Interviewer: [00:46:42] Shohet
Albertine Shawn: [00:46:43] No.
Interviewer: [00:46:45] Did your husband know him? Hillel. Was the person leading the underground?
Amy Shawn: [00:46:49] Oh, I'm sure my dad must have known him.
Interviewer: [00:46:52] That's why I'm asking if, uh. Because in the book you saw the picture and you said I know him.
Amy Shawn: [00:47:00] I'll go get it. Mom, tell them how dad left Baghdad. Dad didn't leave the same way as you. Dad ran away, right? Remember he took a gun to school. And the gun went off by accident.
Albertine Shawn: [00:47:24] Well, I don't remember.
Amy Shawn: [00:47:26] He says the gun went off by accident, so they they start the the police came to see what was happening. And that's when he left Baghdad for good, remember?
Albertine Shawn: [00:47:35] I forgot, I swear.
Interviewer: [00:47:38] So in your case, your parents decided to leave. And you left with your parents in 1949?
Albertine Shawn: [00:47:47] Yeah.
Interviewer: [00:47:48] And did Albert and Nissim and your brothers go with you? Did the whole family come together? Did the all the family go to Israel together?
Albertine Shawn: [00:47:58] No. One brother went and I went.
Amy Shawn: [00:48:03] Your father was already dead at that time. Your father never went to Israel?
Albertine Shawn: [00:48:07] Yeah.
Albertine Shawn: [00:48:08] My father was dead.
Interviewer: [00:48:11] When did he die?
Albertine Shawn: [00:48:14] My father died in 19. My father died.
Amy Shawn: [00:48:22] How old were you when your father died?
Albertine Shawn: [00:48:25] Around 16 years old. 15. 16.
Interviewer: [00:48:29] So 1944, 45? Something like that. And then. So your mother. Took care of all the children.
Albertine Shawn: [00:48:39] Yeah.
Interviewer: [00:48:40] How did she survive? Where did she get money?
Albertine Shawn: [00:48:43] It was very hard for her. Very, very hard. Oh, we didn't have so much money. But. She managed.
Interviewer: [00:48:59] And so she made the decision to go with the family to Israel. Or did you say, I want to go to Israel? And your mother said, yes.
Albertine Shawn: [00:49:12] Yeah.
Interviewer: [00:49:13] Did she say it or did you say it?
Albertine Shawn: [00:49:17] No, she went to. She wanted to come.
Amy Shawn: [00:49:20] But whose idea was it? Mom, was it the kids that said let's go to Israel? Or was it your mother? Whose idea was it? How was it decided that you were leaving Baghdad and going to Israel?
Amy Shawn: [00:49:41] Nissim said this morning that during the pogrom, there was some Israelis that came to your house and asked you if you wanted to leave.
Albertine Shawn: [00:49:57] I don't know.
Interviewer: [00:49:58] Okay. When you left, what did you take with you?
Amy Shawn: [00:50:02] Oh, you wrote something about that here, mum. He said you said here. We could leave without taking here.
Albertine Shawn: [00:50:12] What did they ask me now?
Amy Shawn: [00:50:14] He said, when you left, what did you take with you? And you wrote it here yesterday.
Albertine Shawn: [00:50:18] Yeah. Yeah, well, they didn't let us take anything, but I had a friend that I was very good to him. He put in my sandwich some gold that I gave him.
Amy Shawn: [00:50:36] Which sandwich?
Amy Shawn: [00:50:37] The sandwich that they served you on the plane?
Albertine Shawn: [00:50:40] Yeah, the sandwich that they served me on the plane. So. I gave him some of my gold, and he put it inside the sandwich and he gave it to me on the plane.
Interviewer: [00:50:58] I'm have the sandwich was before he. He kept the gold.
Amy Shawn: [00:51:02] It was in the catering on the plane.
Interviewer: [00:51:04] On the plane. Oh I understand. Okay. So you come to Israel?
Albertine Shawn: [00:51:08] Yes.
Interviewer: [00:51:09] And what did you do in Israel now? You arrive in Israel in 1949.
Albertine Shawn: [00:51:15] Okay. What did we do? They wanted us.
Amy Shawn: [00:51:20] First of all, to tell them that your mother didn't come with you. Your mother stayed in Baghdad. You went to Israel first, right? You left your mother. She was going to come after you.
Albertine Shawn: [00:51:34] Yeah, I forgot, I swear, I swear.
Amy Shawn: [00:51:42] You did. Translation. Remember in the beginning.
Albertine Shawn: [00:51:51] At the beginning. They wanted us to work. I was with a friend. Girlfriend with me. They wanted us to pick us to pick some fruit from the floor. We were bending and it was hard. So we told them we know how to sew. They were very happy. So they gave us a room. And to sit there, and then whoever has something, they bring it to us. And we started to sew it to, to, to, to to.
Amy Shawn: [00:52:44] Repair.
Albertine Shawn: [00:52:45] To repair something.
Amy Shawn: [00:52:47] Was this on a kibbutz? Were you on a kibbutz? Where did you do this?
Albertine Shawn: [00:52:51] In the kibbutz. In the kibbutz?
Amy Shawn: [00:52:54] So when you got to Israel, the first place you went to stay was a kibbutz.
Albertine Shawn: [00:52:57] In the kibbutz.
Interviewer: [00:52:58] You didn't stay in a Ma'abarah.
Albertine Shawn: [00:53:02] Ma'abarah? No, I didn't stay in Ma'abarah.
Interviewer: [00:53:06] Okay.
Albertine Shawn: [00:53:06] I went right away to kibbutz.
Interviewer: [00:53:09] Do you know the the name of the kibbutz? Maharsham?
Albertine Shawn: [00:53:13] Yeah.
Albertine Shawn: [00:53:14] Caesarea.
Interviewer: [00:53:15] Caesarea?
Albertine Shawn: [00:53:16] Yeah. I remember the name.
Amy Shawn: [00:53:20] It's amazing that you remembered that.
Interviewer: [00:53:21] That's.
Albertine Shawn: [00:53:23] History.
Amy Shawn: [00:53:24] The first job you had was you had to pick fruit off the ground and you didn't like it, so you told them you could sew.
Albertine Shawn: [00:53:30] yeah.
Amy Shawn: [00:53:30] And then you repaired.
Albertine Shawn: [00:53:31] They were very happy. Yeah.
Interviewer: [00:53:34] And then from sewing. What happened after that?
Albertine Shawn: [00:53:42] We stayed in the kibbutz in Caesarea.
Amy Shawn: [00:54:04] Mom. When did you become a translator? Did you? How long did you stay on the kibbutz?
Albertine Shawn: [00:54:15] I don't remember.
Amy Shawn: [00:54:16] Where did you go after the kibbutz?
Albertine Shawn: [00:54:19] After the kibbutz? We stayed in the Caesarea and then after the kibbutz. I really don't know.
Amy Shawn: [00:54:45] Didn't you go live with Gracie and your sister? Didn't you go live in an apartment somewhere? And you got a job as a translator? You were translating from Hebrew to Arabic.
Interviewer: [00:55:16] That must have taken some time though, Abby, because she didn't learn Hebrew in Baghdad. So to translate into Hebrew, to Arabic, she has to already learn some Hebrew in Israel before she would be able to do that.
Amy Shawn: [00:55:35] You didn't know any Hebrew when you were in Baghdad. You only learned it when you went to Israel.
Albertine Shawn: [00:55:40] Sure.
Amy Shawn: [00:55:41] So how were you a translator?
Albertine Shawn: [00:55:50] Translator.
Interviewer: [00:55:53] Maybe she was a professor.
Amy Shawn: [00:55:55] You did a job, and they were happy you were doing that job because you knew Arabic. Remember you said the lady that wouldn't promote you because you were Sephardic?
Albertine Shawn: [00:56:04] Yeah.
Amy Shawn: [00:56:05] What was that job?
Interviewer: [00:56:07] Well, maybe she's translating French into Arabic then, because she. Her French was excellent. Yeah. And she and France, there were many people who spoke French. The Moroccans, so many people spoke French. The Syrians, the. You know, that was the language. So, yeah, you could be a translator. It's just not Hebrew. I'm saying it makes sense. It could be French to Arabic because she was perfect in those languages. Right?
Albertine Shawn: [00:56:33] I was living in the kibbutz. And. Uh.
Interviewer: [00:56:52] But we can move on. It's. So you're in Caesarea. And you. You said Victor was your husband, right?
Albertine Shawn: [00:57:01] Yeah.
Interviewer: [00:57:01] So when does Victor. Victor Victor comes to Israel? Yes
Albertine Shawn: [00:57:06] Yes.
Interviewer: [00:57:06] After you arrive or before? Does Victor come to Israel before you come to Israel, or after you come to Israel.
Albertine Shawn: [00:57:16] After. After. After.
Interviewer: [00:57:19] How do you meet Victor again?
Albertine Shawn: [00:57:22] How did.
Interviewer: [00:57:23] You meet Victor in Israel? How did you meet your husband?
Amy Shawn: [00:57:30] How did you and dad get together in Israel? You came at different times. So you're in Israel. How do you meet dad?
Interviewer: [00:57:38] Even find you in Caesarea? I mean, it's. How did you get together?
Albertine Shawn: [00:57:44] So you get a new where I was and he came.
Amy Shawn: [00:57:49] But why were you engaged?
Interviewer: [00:57:53] Why would he come looking for you?
Amy Shawn: [00:57:57] Yeah. Did he like you?
Albertine Shawn: [00:58:01] Yeah.
Amy Shawn: [00:58:02] How do you know?
Albertine Shawn: [00:58:05] I know.
Amy Shawn: [00:58:09] I thought somebody came. Morris Shasha came to you and asked you if you wanted to marry dad.
Albertine Shawn: [00:58:16] Yeah
Amy Shawn: [00:58:17] but tell the story. If you say, yeah, they're not going to know the story.
Albertine Shawn: [00:58:23] Whereas we had a friend that he knows. Both of us. And he said he wanted to introduce us to each other. And then we got married.
Interviewer: [00:58:40] And where did you get married?
Albertine Shawn: [00:58:43] In Israel.
Interviewer: [00:58:44] In Caesarea? In Caesarea? In Tel Aviv, where?
Albertine Shawn: [00:58:49] Uh, no. No, no. The synagogue.
Interviewer: [00:58:54] What city? Moshav. What kibbutz? Where? Where did you get married?
Albertine Shawn: [00:59:03] Where.
Interviewer: [00:59:05] Did you get married?
Albertine Shawn: [00:59:07] Oh, where did I get married? In a synagogue.
Amy Shawn: [00:59:13] In Israel.
Albertine Shawn: [00:59:14] In Israel.
Interviewer: [00:59:16] What year? What year did you get married?
Albertine Shawn: [00:59:20] 1954.
Amy Shawn: [00:59:24] I don't know, I'm looking for your marriage certificate.
Albertine Shawn: [00:59:26] Yeah, 1954 I say. I think 1954.
Interviewer: [00:59:36] Okay. So that would mean. That. You come to Israel? In 1949. And you're in Israel for five years before you get married.
Albertine Shawn: [00:59:52] Yeah.
Interviewer: [00:59:53] And you're working. In on the kibbutz. You're staying on the kibbutz for five years.
Amy Shawn: [01:00:03] How many years did you live on the kibbutz? Mom.
Albertine Shawn: [01:00:09] Caesarea. I don't know. I forgot that about.
Amy Shawn: [01:00:14] Did you live there for a long time?
Albertine Shawn: [01:00:19] Not such a long time.
Amy Shawn: [01:00:21] No.
Interviewer: [01:00:22] Oh, after Caesarea, where did you go? Where did you go after that?
Albertine Shawn: [01:00:26] Where did I go?
Interviewer: [01:00:27] Yeah.
Interviewer: [01:00:28] Where did you live when you left the kibbutz?
Amy Shawn: [01:00:33] After the kibbutz, mom. Where did you go?
Albertine Shawn: [01:00:42] We rented an apartment, I think.
Amy Shawn: [01:00:44] Yeah.
Interviewer: [01:00:44] Where? Where?
Albertine Shawn: [01:00:47] We couldn't find somewhere. Nearby. It was a little bit far. On the hill.
Interviewer: [01:01:03] In Haifa, the Golan where?
Amy Shawn: [01:01:06] In Giv'atayim?
Interviewer: [01:01:07] Giv'atayim?
Albertine Shawn: [01:01:08] in Giv'ataymin.
Interviewer: [01:01:10] So Giv'atayim is part of Tel Aviv.
Albertine Shawn: [01:01:13] Yes.
Interviewer: [01:01:14] And many of the Iraqis lived in Giv'atayim.
Albertine Shawn: [01:01:18] Yeah.
Interviewer: [01:01:19] So do you remember living with many Iraqis around you in Giv'atayim?
Albertine Shawn: [01:01:24] Yeah, there were some friends near us and we used to see them once in a while.
Interviewer: [01:01:31] And what language did you speak to these friends in Arabic or in Hebrew?
Albertine Shawn: [01:01:37] Arabic.
Interviewer: [01:01:37] Arabic. And did you feel that the Ashkenazi, um, discriminated against you as a Sephardi in some way?
Albertine Shawn: [01:01:48] No, I we felt like they preferred the Ashkenazi. We understood because they helped Israel before us.
Amy Shawn: [01:02:05] Mom, you always telling the story of how all the Ashkenazis were promoted at work and you weren't. And you were very upset. So tell them that story.
Albertine Shawn: [01:02:14] And and. As it happened. They were. They were promoting the Ashkenazi much more than the Sephardi. So we had a teacher that she preferred the Ashkenazi much more.
Amy Shawn: [01:02:35] A teacher or an employer?
Amy Shawn: [01:02:37] A boss.
Albertine Shawn: [01:02:40] Above, above us.
Amy Shawn: [01:02:42] Yeah.
Albertine Shawn: [01:02:42] So she used to help them a lot. We saw it, but we couldn't do anything. She used to help them. So. And she used to give promotion. When she gave promotion, she gave everybody, but she didn't give the Sephardi because she's Ashkenazi. So we couldn't do anything.
Interviewer: [01:03:13] What kind of job did you have? What job did you do?
Albertine Shawn: [01:03:17] The job that she had?
Interviewer: [01:03:19] Did you had in Giv'atayim.
Albertine Shawn: [01:03:21] I was I was just a student there.
Amy Shawn: [01:03:26] No, no, mum, you were working and you, she wasn't promoting you. So what job were you doing?
Albertine Shawn: [01:03:32] I was, I was. Working there.
Amy Shawn: [01:03:36] Doing what?
Amy Shawn: [01:03:37] What was your job?
Albertine Shawn: [01:03:41] Uh, sewing. The sewing. Oh, the sewing.
Interviewer: [01:03:45] So you went from the kibbutz sewing? Yeah. To Giv'atayim. And you continued to sew, yeah.
Albertine Shawn: [01:03:51] We are still in the kibbutz, and they bring us to sew anything. I was with a friend.
Interviewer: [01:03:59] So. So your your job was sewing?
Albertine Shawn: [01:04:02] Yeah.
Interviewer: [01:04:03] In Giv'atayim.
Albertine Shawn: [01:04:06] Yes.
Interviewer: [01:04:06] You got married. You were in Giv'atayim. You're sewing. And what is your husband Victor doing?
Amy Shawn: [01:04:18] What did dad do Mom, what in Israel? What was his job?
Albertine Shawn: [01:04:23] What?
Amy Shawn: [01:04:30] I'm sending you all the pictures I have.
Albertine Shawn: [01:04:33] Once.
Albertine Shawn: [01:04:35] Once. It was, it was. Working. And the. The people left a tip On the table.
Amy Shawn: [01:04:51] Oh so, he was a waiter.
Albertine Shawn: [01:04:52] So he was a waiter. He took a job. Any job, just to make money. So he was a waiter. And some people, they put money on the table for the tip. He thought it was for him. He took it and he put it in his pocket. He thought it was for him because.
Amy Shawn: [01:05:16] He didn't know what a tip was.
Albertine Shawn: [01:05:18] Yeah. So they fired him right away.
Interviewer: [01:05:23] So what was his next job? Was he. What did he how what did he do? I mean, did you have children? You're. Did you have children in Israel?
Albertine Shawn: [01:05:38] No. Not yet.
Amy Shawn: [01:05:40] In Israel. Did you have a child?
Albertine Shawn: [01:05:46] In Israel? No.
Albertine Shawn: [01:05:52] No. Not yet.
Amy Shawn: [01:05:54] You had a child in Israel, and that's why you left to go to Vancouver first, remember? Yeah. First you went to London, then you went.
Albertine Shawn: [01:06:03] Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: [01:06:04] So I know you're getting tired. So when did you leave Israel? What year did you leave Israel?
Albertine Shawn: [01:06:10] I lived in Israel in 1949
Interviewer: [01:06:17] 59, 1959.
Interviewer: [01:06:19] You were ten years in, in, uh, Israel. Yeah. You go, you leave and you go to London.
Albertine Shawn: [01:06:27] And we we Uh, I had a sick child, and I thought maybe they could do something. So we stopped in London and then we went to Vancouver.
Amy Shawn: [01:06:43] Yeah.
Albertine Shawn: [01:06:44] To Vancouver.
Interviewer: [01:06:47] And then you came to Montreal.
Albertine Shawn: [01:06:50] And then? We lost the child. And we came to Montreal.
Interviewer: [01:06:58] And in Montreal. Did you become a member of the Iraqi club?
Amy Shawn: [01:07:05] You mean Lord Redding? Is that what you mean?
Interviewer: [01:07:09] No, I mean the Mashaal, the Victor's Iraqi club?
Albertine Shawn: [01:07:12] No.
Amy Shawn: [01:07:13] What do you mean, Victor's Iraqi club? He had a club?
Interviewer: [01:07:16] Yeah. He had. Victor began a club in Montreal called the Iraqi Club.
Amy Shawn: [01:07:21] If there was an Iraqi club, for sure you were a part of it.
Albertine Shawn: [01:07:25] No.
Amy Shawn: [01:07:26] Yeah, mom, you were always with the Iraqis every minute of your life.
Amy Shawn: [01:07:33] So maybe he means Lord Redding, the yacht club.
Speaker4: [01:07:37] It was on. It'll be.
Albertine Shawn: [01:07:38] I don't.
Amy Shawn: [01:07:41] YES
Speaker4: [01:07:41] It'll be. Say it was. He said he bought a house in the Iraqi.
Amy Shawn: [01:07:46] It was the. He must be talking about the Lord Redding Yacht Club where all the Iraqis hung up.
Interviewer: [01:07:51] And I never heard the Lord Redding. He began the club in 51.
Amy Shawn: [01:07:58] What's the what was the Iraqi Club that Victor Mashaal started?
Interviewer: [01:08:03] I never heard of it.
Amy Shawn: [01:08:04] It was. Was it like a formal club?
Speaker4: [01:08:07] Yeah. That's right.
Amy Shawn: [01:08:08] It was.
Amy Shawn: [01:08:10] What was it?
Speaker4: [01:08:11] It was. It was. He bought a property on Île Bizard and it became a kind of informal gathering place.
Albertine Shawn: [01:08:17] Not Redding?
Amy Shawn: [01:08:19] No. Lord Redding was after their saying before Victor had a club on Île Bizard. Sorry.
Interviewer: [01:08:25] It wasn't Victor. Victor's father.
Speaker4: [01:08:27] Victor's father.
Amy Shawn: [01:08:28] Victor's father?
Speaker4: [01:08:29] Yeah.
Interviewer: [01:08:30] No it wasn't. It was Victor. Victor? Victor's father. It was Victor's father. Right. It was Victor's father who began.
Amy Shawn: [01:08:37] Oh.
Albertine Shawn: [01:08:39] I don't know.
Amy Shawn: [01:08:40] I guess you weren't invited. Anyways, let bygones be bygones at 75 years ago.
Interviewer: [01:08:51] So you're in Montreal. And do you have children in Montreal? Children? Do you have children in Montreal?
Albertine Shawn: [01:08:59] Yes.
Interviewer: [01:09:00] What are their names?
Albertine Shawn: [01:09:02] What was their name?
Amy Shawn: [01:09:04] Mom? You had children in Montreal. Remember me? Me? I'm your child. And? And Morris.
Albertine Shawn: [01:09:12] I have Abby and Morris. And I lost one child.
Interviewer: [01:09:19] And did Morris get married?
Albertine Shawn: [01:09:22] Yes.
Interviewer: [01:09:23] And does Morris have children?
Albertine Shawn: [01:09:25] Yes. He has a boy and a girl.
Interviewer: [01:09:28] And did Abby get married?
Albertine Shawn: [01:09:29] Yes.
Interviewer: [01:09:30] And does Abby have children?
Albertine Shawn: [01:09:31] Yes.
Amy Shawn: [01:09:33] I have a Son.
Albertine Shawn: [01:09:34] She has a son.
Interviewer: [01:09:35] So you're a safta, grandmother?
Albertine Shawn: [01:09:37] Yeah.
Amy Shawn: [01:09:39] She's a Nana.
Interviewer: [01:09:40] A Nana, right. Sorry. I'm going in between the languages here and in Montreal. What did you do? You were a housewife or did you work?
Albertine Shawn: [01:09:50] In Montreal.
Amy Shawn: [01:09:51] You worked, mom.
Albertine Shawn: [01:09:52] I worked as a as a as a, uh, clothing designer.
Amy Shawn: [01:10:01] Didn't you work at IBM? You said you worked at IBM.
Albertine Shawn: [01:10:11] Yes. I worked a little in the IBM. Yes.
Amy Shawn: [01:10:15] What did you do there?
Albertine Shawn: [01:10:18] I will do the punching.
Interviewer: [01:10:21] Yeah, because it was all cards and it had to be.
Albertine Shawn: [01:10:23] Yeah.
Amy Shawn: [01:10:24] Oh
Interviewer: [01:10:25] yeah. Before your time. Before the way we understood computers. What did your husband Victor do?
Albertine Shawn: [01:10:34] Victor.
Interviewer: [01:10:36] What was his job?
Albertine Shawn: [01:10:42] What did he do?
Amy Shawn: [01:10:43] Didn't he sell clothing?
Albertine Shawn: [01:10:48] Yeah. He start salesman. He was a salesman.
Interviewer: [01:10:53] And were you a member of a synagogue in Montreal?
Albertine Shawn: [01:10:57] Of synagogue in Montreal. Yeah. The the.
Amy Shawn: [01:11:05] Spanish and Portuguese.
Albertine Shawn: [01:11:07] The the.
Amy Shawn: [01:11:09] Spanish,
Albertine Shawn: [01:11:09] Spanish and Portuguese.
Interviewer: [01:11:11] Spanish and Portuguese. And did your children go to a Hebrew school? Did they learn anything about Israel?
Albertine Shawn: [01:11:19] Pardon me.
Interviewer: [01:11:20] Did your children learn about Israel? Did they go to a Jewish school or have a bar mitzvah? Bar mitzvah?
Albertine Shawn: [01:11:30] Not so much.
Amy Shawn: [01:11:32] My dad educated me a lot in Jewish studies. He used to take me to the Jewish bookstore all the time on Victoria in Montreal, and he'd buy me all the a whole series called The Children's Bible. And every weekend I would read it and he would go over the stories with me.
Interviewer: [01:11:48] Did you have a bat mitzvah?
Albertine Shawn: [01:11:50] No.
Interviewer: [01:11:50] Did Morris have a bar mitzvah?
Amy Shawn: [01:11:52] Yes.
Interviewer: [01:11:53] And did your parents ever take you to Israel?
Amy Shawn: [01:11:55] Yes.
Interviewer: [01:11:57] So you you went to Israel on some trips.
Amy Shawn: [01:12:00] I went we went to Israel because both my parents had a lot of family in Israel.
Interviewer: [01:12:05] And your parents spoke Hebrew?
Amy Shawn: [01:12:07] Yeah.
Interviewer: [01:12:07] And did they teach you Hebrew?
Amy Shawn: [01:12:09] No. They spoke Arabic to each other. And when they didn't want us to understand, they'd speak to each other in Hebrew.
Interviewer: [01:12:14] Ah.
Amy Shawn: [01:12:15] Or when my mum and I didn't want my dad to understand, we'd speak in French.
Interviewer: [01:12:21] You had it all worked out.
Amy Shawn: [01:12:22] Yeah.
Interviewer: [01:12:22] And did so you learned Arabic because your parents spoke Arabic?
Amy Shawn: [01:12:26] Yeah
Interviewer: [01:12:27] but you speak it. You don't write it.
Amy Shawn: [01:12:29] I don't write it.
Interviewer: [01:12:30] Could you speak? Can Morris speak Arabic?
Amy Shawn: [01:12:33] Not as well as me. Do you think Morris speaks Arabic well? No. He understands a lot.
Albertine Shawn: [01:12:38] Yeah.
Interviewer: [01:12:40] Can did, but you didn't learn Hebrew? No. Does more speak French?
Amy Shawn: [01:12:46] Yeah, not as well as I do, because he didn't live in Montreal for as long and I practiced law in French, so. Uh huh. More of my education, I would say, is French, but he speaks French, but not as fluently as we do.
Interviewer: [01:13:00] And, and, um, so let me ask you a just a few last questions, because I know you're tired. How how would you identify yourself? How do you see yourself in terms of identity?
Amy Shawn: [01:13:17] How how do you see yourself? Do you see yourself as a Canadian, as an Iraqi, as a Jew, as an Israeli? How do you feel like if you have to say, this is what I am, what would you say?
Albertine Shawn: [01:13:32] I said I am an Iraqi Jews.
Interviewer: [01:13:35] Iraqi Jew. And how do you keep your your Babylonian tradition, your Sephardi tradition? How do you do that today?
Amy Shawn: [01:13:47] What do you think you do now? That's Iraqi. What are your habits that are Iraqi? We have the food.
Albertine Shawn: [01:13:55] Mostly the food. We I make a lot of Iraqi food.
Albertine Shawn: [01:14:03] And uh
Interviewer: [01:14:06] do you like Iraqi music? Arab music?
Albertine Shawn: [01:14:09] Pardon me.
Amy Shawn: [01:14:10] Do you like Arabic music?
Amy Shawn: [01:14:13] Not that much.
Albertine Shawn: [01:14:14] Not that much.
Amy Shawn: [01:14:14] Dad liked it.
Interviewer: [01:14:16] Israeli music.
Amy Shawn: [01:14:19] What kind of music do you like? You're not a music lover.
Albertine Shawn: [01:14:22] I'm not a music lover.
Interviewer: [01:14:24] If you read, what do you read in English or French or Arabic?
Amy Shawn: [01:14:28] What? She reads Danielle Steele.
Interviewer: [01:14:30] She reads in English. In English. So that's good.
Amy Shawn: [01:14:33] Are you laughing?
Speaker4: [01:14:36] It's very cultural. Um, so here's the last question. The last question. People are going to hear this interview.
Amy Shawn: [01:14:47] People are going to hear this. They're going to watch this interview.
Amy Shawn: [01:14:51] Okay
Albertine Shawn: [01:14:52] okay.
Interviewer: [01:14:52] Children are going to watch you, your grandchildren.
Albertine Shawn: [01:14:54] Okay.
Interviewer: [01:14:55] What message do you want to give them?
Albertine Shawn: [01:14:57] What did.
Amy Shawn: [01:14:58] What message? What message do you want to give to your kids, your grandkids? What do you want them to know or to hear?
Albertine Shawn: [01:15:08] Just be nice to your friends, to your children, and enjoy life as much as you can. And I hope you'll be healthy and enjoy your life.
Amy Shawn: [01:15:25] Anything about being Jewish? No.
Albertine Shawn: [01:15:30] Why?
Interviewer: [01:15:31] Why?
Amy Shawn: [01:15:33] I'm just curious if she even cares. After everything I've heard for the last two hours, I'm starting to feel like I'm having an identity crisis.
Interviewer: [01:15:45] This is traumatic for her. I want to say how much I appreciate you taking the time, because I know you're tired, and it's very hard to think about. These things that happened in the past.
Albertine Shawn: [01:16:04] Too hard.
Interviewer: [01:16:05] Because it makes you tired. But we we Sephardi voices very much appreciates very much, you know, know how hard it is to share that. But your children, Abby, Morris, your grandchildren, they will really, really later say how lucky we are. So thank you so much.
Amy Shawn: [01:16:31] Did you understand, mom?
Albertine Shawn: [01:16:32] No.
Amy Shawn: [01:16:33] He's saying it was so important. Everything that you shared today, all the information that your kids and your grandkids are really going to appreciate it later on and that it's going to become part of a larger story of Sephardic voices. Yeah. And they're thanking you because they know it's tiring.
Albertine Shawn: [01:16:51] And I'm happy we did it. And I'm happy that you will know it, they will know it, and everybody will enjoy that.
Interviewer: [01:17:02] What we do is we make a USB, which we will give to you.
Amy Shawn: [01:17:07] Thank you
Albertine Shawn: [01:17:08] thank you.
Amy Shawn: [01:17:09] I hope you're editing it.
Amy Shawn: [01:17:12] is this is this going to be it this better be edited. Take out the part about Yom Kippur.